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Scientist imam: Muslims need to talk about evolution

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Dead Man

Member
Didn't know whether to post this in the Islam thread or the evolution one, so I've made a new one.

Source: NewScientist.com

We need devout Muslim scientists to speak out, says Usama Hasan, who has had death threats for saying evolution is compatible with the Koran

What did you say about evolution that upset people in your community?

My trouble started three years ago when I wrote an article saying that we needed to move beyond the simplistic idea held by many Muslims that God created Adam from clay and then breathed life into him. This literal interpretation of the Koran is still the dominant position. I was brought up a creationist and was a fundamentalist for many years, but I came to the conclusion that evolution is entirely compatible with the Koran and that alternative interpretations of the creation story that account for evolution are valid.

What happened recently to stir things up?

Things escalated in December when a visiting influential Saudi scholar, Salir al-Sadlan, was asked whether someone who believed in evolution was fit to lead prayers, and he said no. An online petition against me was set up, saying I should be removed from al-Tawhid mosque, where I have been a prayer leader for 25 years. So in January I held a lecture at the mosque to clarify my position on why evolution does not undermine the scriptures. The lecture was disrupted by a small gang of fanatics and I had to abandon it.

How has this affected your everyday life?

It has been quite serious. At the lecture a leaflet was handed out saying that anybody believing in evolution or who propagates it must be killed. Knowing some of the people behind this, in the small fanatical fringe of the British Muslim community, I know they believe that literally. They are pro-violence. So it was very worrying, especially as I have young children. I have had to take out extra security at home, which I guess will stay for the rest of my life.

How common is the creationist position among Muslims?

It is the default position. Most of us are taught that evolution is wrong, unproven and a blasphemy. A lot of people enjoy science programmes on TV such as those by David Attenborough, but they tend to say he's an unbeliever so we can't trust him.

Recently you retracted your views because of the outrage they caused. Could you explain?

My retraction was saying that I misjudged how to go about explaining these things. Sooner or later someone will have to address the issue of evolution - it's a no-go area, especially with the clerics - but I'm abandoning my attempt to reconcile it with the Koran until things settle down. I am not willing to risk my life over this issue.

With hindsight I probably went too far in stating a position so explicitly; a better option may have been to simply open up the debate. I have been heartened by the support I have had. Many people have said that while they didn't actually agree with me, I should have the right to discuss the matter.

What is the best way to raise the issue of evolution among Muslims?

We need more Muslim scientists who are known to be devout to speak out about their views. I have had a lot of support from Muslim scientists, but they wouldn't speak out because they knew the reaction they were likely to get. They were scared.Interview by Michael Bond


Profile

Usama Hasan is a senior lecturer in the department of business information systems at Middlesex University, UK, and an imam at al-Tawhid mosque in Leyton, east London

I thought creationism was a mainly Christian thing, guess I was wrong. Sucks for the guy to get death threats over this. Good on him for talking a stab at it, and I don't blame him for backing off.
 
I remember an Imam came to speak to my class, and he said, "I'll take you to the Congo and show me a monkey that walks upright".

I fell to the floor like an anime character.
 

Raist

Banned
Dead Man said:
I thought creationism was a mainly Christian thing, guess I was wrong.

Huh? Most religions are, by definition, based on creationism.

Anyways, death threats. Nice. Guess it'll take them a couple hundred more years to evolve.
 
Proclaim!
In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created -
created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.
-- Sura 96:1-2

Adam and Eve aside, it's going to be tough for ardent Muslims to discuss much in the way of biology.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Jason's Ultimatum said:
I remember an Imam came to speak to my class, and he said, "I'll take you to the Congo and show me a monkey that walks upright".

I fell to the floor like an anime character.


I can't tell if this is good or bad from your story. There are lots of monkeys, great and lesser apes, that do in fact walk upright and give us valuable insight into natural selection.
 

methos75

Banned
Dead Man said:
Didn't know whether to post this in the Islam thread or the evolution one, so I've made a new one.

Source: NewScientist.com



I thought creationism was a mainly Christian thing, guess I was wrong. Sucks for the guy to get death threats over this. Good on him for talking a stab at it, and I don't blame him for backing off.


Why would you think that, Muslims are more strict about their religion than most Christians are, remember they still stone for disobeying the Koran, of course they are anti-Evolution as well.
 

Dead Man

Member
Raist said:
Huh? Most religions are, by definition, based on creationism.

Anyways, death threats. Nice. Guess it'll take them a couple hundred more years to evolve.
I meant more the hard line Don't teach that or you die type of stuff. Obviously most religions when read literally are creationist.
 

Walshicus

Member
Dead Man said:
I thought creationism was a mainly Christian thing, guess I was wrong. Sucks for the guy to get death threats over this. Good on him for talking a stab at it, and I don't blame him for backing off.
It's an American Christian thing in the first world. The Pope supports it, after all.

But yeah, it's crazy how blind Islam is to evolution. For hundreds of years Islam pushed forth science and maths... and now it's nothing.
 

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
Such a shame, to think there was a time when Islam was the driving force in the world behind scientific advancement. It's horrifying and fascinating to see how things have regressed so badly.
 
Want to make enemies? Try to change something!

Seriously though, this is just sad. Good on him trying to make a difference though.
 

Zapages

Member
My current research deals with evolution... I will see where it leads me. :)

Sir Fragula said:
It's an American Christian thing in the first world. The Pope supports it, after all.

But yeah, it's crazy how blind Islam is to evolution. For hundreds of years Islam pushed forth science and maths... and now it's nothing.

we can thank Wahabi/Salafi school of thought for that. :|
 
How common is the creationist position among Muslims?

It is the default position. Most of us are taught that evolution is wrong, unproven and a blasphemy. A lot of people enjoy science programmes on TV such as those by David Attenborough, but they tend to say he's an unbeliever so we can't trust him.


I never known this is default position. Creation is diffrent but there is many proof in islam regarding the life taking diffrent routes.

"Al-Jahiz's ideas on the struggle for existence in the Book of Animals have been summarized as follows:

"Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring." this was in 700AD.

you can say most of the muslim belive in theist evalution .
 
OuterWorldVoice said:
I can't tell if this is good or bad from your story. There are lots of monkeys, great and lesser apes, that do in fact walk upright and give us valuable insight into natural selection.

It's a good thing if that's his criteria towards acceptance. But something about that story tells me he's not going to embrace it.
 

WEGGLES

Member
Isn't islam a religion of peace?

Why is it that anything they don't like seems to be met with death threats?

I know it's the extremists, but even still. If something was truly peaceful, it would be so even to extremes.
 
Dead Man said:
I thought creationism was a mainly Christian thing, guess I was wrong. Sucks for the guy to get death threats over this. Good on him for talking a stab at it, and I don't blame him for backing off.
By what I understand, it is much much bigger in the Islamic world. Evolution doesn't even get a foothold there except in the ivory tower academic world.

There is this guy in Turkey Adnan Oktar that is a huge proponent of creationism and spreads propaganda all over the Islamic world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Oktar

Check out this much cited graphic:
“Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals.” True Or False?
do-you-believe-in-evolution.jpg

I'd like to know what it would be like in Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc. I'm guessing they would have an even lower acceptance of evolution than westernized Turkey.
 

Dead Man

Member
speculawyer said:
By what I understand, it is much much bigger in the Islamic world. Evolution doesn't even get a foothold there except in the ivory tower academic world.

There is this guy in Turkey Adnan Oktar that is a huge proponent of creationism and spreads propaganda all over the Islamic world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Oktar

Check out this much cited graphic:
http://palscience.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/do-you-believe-in-evolution.jpg[IMG]
I'd like to know what it would be like in Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc. I'm guessing they would have an even lower acceptance of evolution than westernized Turkey.[/QUOTE]
Well that's depressing. I wish Islam was still giving the world words for scientific concepts like they used to.
 

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
Jason's Ultimatum said:
I'm ashame of my birthplace being dead last on that chart. :(

I'm ashamed that a nation as a advanced and modern as the US is second to last on that chart. I don't consider myself 100% from the US but it's still shameful and embarrassing.
 
speculawyer said:
By what I understand, it is much much bigger in the Islamic world. Evolution doesn't even get a foothold there except in the ivory tower academic world.

There is this guy in Turkey Adnan Oktar that is a huge proponent of creationism and spreads propaganda all over the Islamic world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Oktar

Check out this much cited graphic:
“Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals.” True Or False?
do-you-believe-in-evolution.jpg

I'd like to know what it would be like in Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc. I'm guessing they would have an even lower acceptance of evolution than westernized Turkey.

America are second from bottom in that chart....I knew creationism had some popular belief over the Atlantic but that's incredible. My jaw nearly hit the floor.
 
Jason's Ultimatum said:
I remember an Imam came to speak to my class, and he said, "I'll take you to the Congo and show me a monkey that walks upright".

I fell to the floor like an anime character.
Do it for 'an ape that walks upright' and when you get there just point at him.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
WEGGLES said:
Isn't islam a religion of peace?

Why is it that anything they don't like seems to be met with death threats?

I know it's the extremists, but even still. If something was truly peaceful, it would be so even to extremes.

It's not a religion of peace. That's just a phrase.

No big religion has its hands clean of blood. They're too useful to the whims of men. The Abrahamic ones have a particularly long and sordid history.

I was thinking about that the other day while reading about Cortez. The things Christianity did to the Maya and Aztec peoples were monstrous, but imagine those religions and cultures had survived to the modern day. Do you think you could abide a religion that literally murdered babies daily to appease bloodthirsty gods?
 

Zenith

Banned
I guess if the Koran is meant to be the literal word of Allah that leaves even less "wiggle room" for believers to try and make it compatible with science.
 
speculawyer said:
By what I understand, it is much much bigger in the Islamic world. Evolution doesn't even get a foothold there except in the ivory tower academic world.

There is this guy in Turkey Adnan Oktar that is a huge proponent of creationism and spreads propaganda all over the Islamic world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Oktar

Check out this much cited graphic:
“Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals.” True Or False?
do-you-believe-in-evolution.jpg

I'd like to know what it would be like in Yemen, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc. I'm guessing they would have an even lower acceptance of evolution than westernized Turkey.

dawkins' response to atlas of creation, it's quite funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxGDXSJZfc
 

Zapages

Member
Zenith said:
I guess if the Koran is meant to be the literal word of Allah that leaves even less "wiggle room" for believers to try and make it compatible with science.

The Holy Quran is very flowery in its text. Also the Holy Quran is made for all times ie. forever. So its based on the interruption of the person. You are thinking what Wahabi interrupt Islam like.
 

MrHicks

Banned
Zapages said:
The Holy Quran is very flowery in its text. Also the Holy Quran is made for all times ie. forever. So its based on the interruption of the person. You are thinking what Wahabi interrupt Islam like.

sooooo do you accept evolution or not?
 

Lamel

Banned
Oh Muslim people, please stop embarrassing me.

Anyway, this is pretty much true. Most Muslims take to the literal interpretation, it's only the new generations and scientists (or highly educated Muslims) that delve into things such as evolution for the most part. I am one of them, as I do believe evolution is a very strong theory. However my parents don't; both college educated and moderate and what not, but they're beliefs of creation are still fundamental, I dunno why. Then again I am not the most devout Muslim to begin with.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Zapages said:
The Holy Quran is very flowery in its text. Also the Holy Quran is made for all times ie. forever. So its based on the interruption of the person. You are thinking what Wahabi interrupt Islam like.

That's not just a Wahabiism issue. Most sects of Islam are literalist. How they turn that literal reading of the text into law and deed is the difference.
 
Zenith said:
I guess if the Koran is meant to be the literal word of Allah that leaves even less "wiggle room" for believers to try and make it compatible with science.

I think of it as sort of metaphor, I guess. I don't think people back in the day could have handled the idea of evolution and the big bang, so we have a creation story. But who's to say God didn't create the world and humanity in that (evolution and BBT) manner? The Qur'an encourages reason, God gave it to us after all. It doesn't make sense that I'm committing some fantastic sin for not putting limits on God's power.
 
2dmb12u.jpg


well, that sucks....

i just can't believe an advanced country like mine could be so anti-evolution. it just makes me really sad.

i want to move to the UK or Iceland.
 

Zapages

Member
MrHicks said:
sooooo do you accept evolution or not?

I see the the theory of evolution just a theory. It has its flaws and has it goods. As humans we can not accept this theory as a law. The problem I see is that most schools, teachers, and professors teach evolution as something is concrete that is not going to change ever like Rule/Law like Newton's laws etc. But the theory of evolution is ever changing that will change with more human knowledge and understanding of the world around us.

That is why we should be teaching the theory of evolution as a theory as a way to understand the world around. Instead of something that is a law.
 

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
"There are no intermediates between crocodiles and squirrels" :lol
That video is awesome.
 

2San

Member
My Mom who was born and raised in Bangladesh(90% Muslim, 4th highest Islamic population in the world) is a devout Muslim and fully believes in Evolution and learned that in high school. I'm actually surprised to hear that there are Muslims that don't believe in Evolution. Also understand that some people simply have never heard of the evolution theory.
 
Zapages said:
I see the the theory of evolution just a theory. It has its flaws and has it goods. As humans we can not accept this theory as a law. The problem I see is that most schools, teachers, and professors teach evolution as something is concrete that is not going to change ever like Rule/Law like Newton's laws etc. But the theory of evolution is ever changing that will change with more human knowledge and understanding of the world around us.

That is why we should be teaching the theory of evolution as a theory as a way to understand the world around. Instead of something that is a law.
http://www.notjustatheory.com/
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Zapages said:
I see the the theory of evolution just a theory. It has its flaws and has it goods. As humans we can not accept this theory as a law. The problem I see is that most schools, teachers, and professors teach evolution as something is concrete that is not going to change ever like Rule/Law like Newton's laws etc. But the theory of evolution is ever changing that will change with more human knowledge and understanding of the world around us.

That is why we should be teaching the theory of evolution as a theory as a way to understand the world around. Instead of something that is a law.

It's not a fucking law. It's a theory. That means that it is adjusted and changed ac cording to new information and data that continues to come in.

It is in fact THE OPPOSITE of what you just said. Look, you have absolutely NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. So stop arguing about it. Just say, "Zapages old chap, you are simple and don't understand much about anything, and you should read and comprehend information before opining on it."

You know what's interpreted as a law? Islam. Christianity. Judaism.

Which is funny, because it's obvious that god abandoned the Middle East long ago. Perhaps that's why everyone there searches so hard for him.
 

Zenith

Banned
Zapages said:
I see the the theory of evolution just a theory.

And how do you view the theory of gravity or tectonics?

The problem I see is that most schools, teachers, and professors teach evolution as something is concrete that is not going to change ever like Rule/Law like Newton's laws etc.

Newton's teachings have required considerable alteration to encompass all data. That's one of the things Einstein's most famous for. The theory of evolution is just as sound as the theory of gravity.
 

Enosh

Member
Sir Fragula said:
It's an American Christian thing in the first world. The Pope supports it, after all.
last time I checked the official position of the catholic church is that evolution did hapen but that it had "divine guidance" or whatever

it is creationism but not the "god made everything as it is in a day or two" creationism
 

Zapages

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
It's not a fucking law. It's a theory. That means that it is adjusted and changed ac cording to new information and data that continues to come in.

It is in fact THE OPPOSITE of what you just said. Look, you have absolutely NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. So stop arguing about it. Just say, "Zapages old chap, you are simple and don't understand much about anything, and you should read and comprehend information before opining on it."

All I am saying many people teach and talk about this theory as fact. But all it is our human understanding about how we came about and it is ever changing theory at the micro level.

My core masters research deals with Evolutionary/taxonomy biology for my future. So I know what I am talking about.
 

Antagon

Member
Zenith said:
And how do you view the theory of gravity or tectonics?



Newton's teachings have required considerable alteration to encompass all data. That's one of the things Einstein's most famous for. The theory of evolution is just as sound as the theory of gravity.

I thought that the theory of gravity is still far from complete?
 

Antagon

Member
Zapages said:
All I am saying many people teach and talk about this theory as fact. But all it is our human understanding about how we came about and it is ever changing theory at the micro level.

My core masters research deals with Evolutionary/taxonomy biology for my future. So I know what I am talking about.

But you agree with the theory on a macro level?
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Zapages said:
All I am saying many people teach and talk about this theory as fact. But all it is our human understanding about how we came about and it is ever changing theory at the micro level.

My core masters research deals with Evolutionary/taxonomy biology for my future. So I know what I am talking about.


Theories contain facts. They are not themselves "facts" but rather compelling collections of facts.

Religious texts are not facts. They are religious texts.
 
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