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Article about sexism in nerd-dominated communities. Long, but good read

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ThLunarian

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I thought about pasting the whole article here, but it's pretty long, and it makes ample use of pictures, so if you want to read it you'll have to give starcitygames some web traffic:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html

It's written through the lens of a Magic the Gathering player, but the things he talks about are broad enough to apply to any similar subcommunity (gamers, anime enthusiasts, etc).

It was written in response to the backlash that Alyssa Bererznak received after writing an article where she talked trash about a world champion Magic player with whom she went on a blind date.

I don't know if I necessarily agree completely with everything he says, but I think it's a very good read, and wanted to share with GAF. Enjoy.
 
knew someone would write something like this.

there's tons of sexism in these communities, but that was not about sexism. that was about some stupid bitch being a dumb ho. I mean, it was about someone abusing their public voice in a pretty heinous way.
 
Ooohhhhh boy . . . Can't wait for this 40-page monster thread. Gonna go ahead and start reading. So many posters here seem to relish their sexism, and vehemently defend it. This is going to be a spectacle.
 
Smision said:
knew someone would write something like this.

there's tons of sexism in these communities, but that was not about sexism. that was about some stupid bitch being a dumb ho. I mean, it was about someone abusing their public voice in a pretty heinous way.
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I agree that the outcry about the article wasn't a pure "sexism in the nerd community" reaction, but you really aren't helping with the bolded :P

Also anyone who thinks that women don't usually have it tough in the "gaming community" are deluding themselves.
 
His extensive use of the word 'kiddo' is annoying me and this guy is the biggest white knight i've ever seen, can't be bothered reading it all.
 
There's another reason that the response to Alyssa Bereznak was so overwhelming, and it has nothing to do with gaming.

Gavin de Becker is an author who has written several books about the nature of fear. In his book The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us From Violence, he noted that the outcome a woman feared most from any romantic encounter was rape and death. I know it must be really hard on you, kiddo. You're going to go through life fearing that, in a worst-case scenario, you could be sexually assaulted and murdered by a member of the opposite sex. Sure, it's likely that something that terrible will never come to pass (god forbid! I feel sick even talking about it!), but there are no guarantees. In fact, some men (and presumably some women writing for Gizmodo Australia) will tell you to avoid drinking too much or wearing sexy clothes in order to spare yourself such a dark outcome. Imagine that! Hinting that it'd be your fault. It's tough being a girl, huh?

Now, pumpkin, pretend you're a man. What's your greatest fear in a romantic situation?

Give up? More than anything, we fear being laughed at and made to feel humiliated by the opposite sex.

I know, that worry must sound pretty awesome to you—a big improvement from what you've had to worry about. Well, most men don't see it that way. Men hate when women laugh at them. It makes them feel powerless and afraid and out of control, and when it happens they lash out.

Guess who recently laughed at a big group of men?

If you said Alyssa Bereznak, you're a good guesser. And when she did it so publically and with such apparent disregard for the tolerance to which gamers felt entitled, things got nasty. She had made them feel vulnerable, returned to the forefront of their minds those memories of rejection, those long nights spent brooding, telling themselves “if a woman would just get to know me, she'd fall in love.” The readers of her article had thought the universal acceptance of their fetishistic gamer culture close at hand but were confronted by a maddening truth—that their ways and customs were, for many potential romantic partners, still a turn-off.

Alyssa called Jon, through whom all gamerdom vicariously sat across from her, a “champion of dweebs.” Her laugh could be heard echoing across the internet, and the silhouette of her chortling, dismissive mouth was like a Bat Signal for every humiliated and fearful geek to whom the marginalization of his identity was an affront. In that instant, gamers felt so much pride, and so much fear, that they became not the evolved renaissance men of gaming to which Day[9]'s Manifesto had so cheerfully referred, but the knuckle-dragging apes of their ideal.
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Now this is interesting, and I think has more then a little truth in it.
 
You guys who are calling him a white knight are really missing the point. He isn't defending her actions (they aren't defensible at all, and he seems to recognize that), he is decrying the sexist responses to her actions. It is completely unsurprising that you can't actually see that though, because you are the exact type of people he is talking about in the article. The article isn't actually about her, either, it is simply using that incident as a springboard to talk about misogyny in communities like ours at large. You guys should really read the whole thing.
 
ronito said:
only guys punished Breznack? Good to know!
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He addressed that in the article, if you'd bothered to open the link.

"C. Internalized Misoginy" (under Section 4), if you want the exact location.
 
Smision said:
got to the "gendered insults" section before giving up.

as if there isn't a male analog for all of those.
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There isn't. It's the same reason there isn't a white equivalent to nigger. Part of the reason bitch and cunt come off as meaner is that men have had a power advantage over women for thousands of years. Arguably, that power advantage is still very present today, even in first world, western civilization. They're not just naughty words. It's like, they degrade the target for simply being what they are. It's just more powerful than calling someone a douchebag, or an asshole, or whatever.
 
Aeana said:
You guys who are calling him a white knight are really missing the point. He isn't defending her actions (they aren't defensible at all, and he seems to recognize that), he is decrying the sexist responses to her actions. It is completely unsurprising that you can't actually see that though, because you are the exact type of people he is talking about in the article. The article isn't actually about her, either, it is simply using that incident as a springboard to talk about misogyny in communities like ours at large. You guys should really read the whole thing.
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I didn't say he was White Knighting Breznack. He's white knighting en masse.

"Here women I shall save you from the unwashed misogynistic masses!"

Mean people get treated meanly. No need to write a 9 page article about it. Or if you do at least don't be so verbose.
 
That was not a good read. I want my minutes back.

The "geek" culture is rather sexist and mysoginic though.

Aeana said:
You guys who are calling him a white knight are really missing the point. He isn't defending her actions (they aren't defensible at all, and he seems to recognize that), he is decrying the sexist responses to her actions. It is completely unsurprising that you can't actually see that though, because you are the exact type of people he is talking about in the article. The article isn't actually about her, either, it is simply using that incident as a springboard to talk about misogyny in communities like ours at large. You guys should really read the whole thing.
Click to expand...
Towards the end of the article he does pretty much defend her actions. He says that it's quite reasonable to not date someone based on a hobby and that it's not problematic at all.
 
Aeana said:
You guys who are calling him a white knight are really missing the point. He isn't defending her actions (they aren't defensible at all, and he seems to recognize that), he is decrying the sexist responses to her actions. It is completely unsurprising that you can't actually see that though, because you are the exact type of people he is talking about in the article. The article isn't actually about her, either, it is simply using that incident as a springboard to talk about misogyny in communities like ours at large. You guys should really read the whole thing.
Click to expand...
I agree. This article is incredibly hit or miss for me though. He's absolutely right about point #4 (the personal and gendered insults were disgusting), I think he's onto something with point #7 (the fear issue) but points #6 and #8 still bug me. I don't think he's entirely correct, and he comes off as trying to justify her snap judgement when...well...she was being shallow. Maybe Magic turned her off of a second date because thats not really something she's into, and thats fine, but the whole "strike one two three" thing was just tasteless.
 
Draft said:
There isn't. It's the same reason there isn't a white equivalent to nigger. Part of the reason bitch and cunt come off as meaner is that men have had a power advantage over women for thousands of years. Arguably, that power advantage is still very present today, even in first world, western civilization. They're not just naughty words. It's like, they degrade the target for simply being what they are. It's just more powerful than calling someone a douchebag, or an asshole, or whatever.
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Well put and entirely spot on.

The article was a bit hard to read, simply because of the format of speaking to his unborn daughter (got a bit tired of "sweetie" and "pumpkin"), but he made some quality points, I thought. He did not simply defend Breznack's article (although he did more thoroughly examine the potential for her supposedly snap judgements); rather, he examined the response and sexism played a huge role in influencing peoples reactions. The language and variety of insults used were definitely ugly and uncalled for. Not sure if this is about sexism in the nerd community, or sexism in society as a whole. People get sloppy, especially when angry, and a lot of times, the following insults will flow along easy lines, like gender.
 
badcrumble said:
It's, weird, but true, that communities comprised almost entirely of beta males often absolutely loathe women.
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You think Nerds are misogynistic? Try hanging out with alphas.
 
ronito said:
I didn't say he was White Knighting Breznack. He's white knighting en masse.

"Here women I shall save you from the unwashed misogynistic masses!"
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The thing is saying something like "hey stop being such a shit head misogynist" usually means that a million people call you a white knight. People hate acknowledging and potentially losing some of their privilege, so I get it. The constant misogyny here bothers me a lot. It's even more frustrating that anyone who tries to point it out is labeled a "white knight."
 
ronito said:
You think Nerds are misogynistic? Try hanging out with alphas.
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What are those of us in middle called? The ones who hold down a handful of good relationships over their lives without either fucking a new girl every few weeks or remaining a virgin into their late 20s
 
I would agree that sexist, angry guys (boys) used her as an excuse to post a bunch of hateful shit towards women in general, which is wrong but things didn't really get out of hand, it just turned into a meme. It seems like this guy doesn't understand how the internet works. They trash everything. They may be more prone to enjoying women-bashing but it's not like this is the only time in history an entire group has been lambasted on the internet.

Tons of different people who do stupid shit get made fun of all the time when they become a meme. In this case sexist jokes are easy to do so lots of people did them. Sorry but she brought it on herself. She still hasn't apologized to the guy and continues to tweet stuff. She tried to damage control things by saying it wasn't an attack but the way the article was written was basically the opposite. What she did (and her personality in general) is just really lame overall.

The internet forgot about it anyway, people had their fun bashing her for a couple weeks then it dies out like most meme's it's not that serious.
 
dude said:
That was not a good read. I want my minutes back.

The "geek" culture is rather sexist and mysoginic though.


Towards the end of the article he does pretty much defend her actions. He says that it's quite reasonable to not date someone based on a hobby and that it's not problematic at all.
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But it is reasonable to not date someone based on a hobby. I wouldn't want to date a football player cause I find football dull as dirt. Geekly pursuits don't have some protected nation status compared to the rest of humanity.

She was a total jerk about it, but it's not useful to date people expecting them to change to suit you in the future.

The article is a bit meandering in places, but parts are worth thinking about. There's a reason that Girl-GAF isn't as outspoken as the rest of you guys. ;)
 
Is it called black knighting when someone points out that racism still exists and is still a serious problem in the modern day, or that 'reverse racism' is utter made-up bullshit, etc.?
 
Draft said:
There isn't. It's the same reason there isn't a white equivalent to nigger. Part of the reason bitch and cunt come off as meaner is that men have had a power advantage over women for thousands of years. Arguably, that power advantage is still very present today, even in first world, western civilization. They're not just naughty words. It's like, they degrade the target for simply being what they are. It's just more powerful than calling someone a douchebag, or an asshole, or whatever.
Click to expand...

edit: i'm gonna bring this back to gender, away from race. I agree there's no white analog to "nigger." that's a different can of worms.

Ok, and in my everyday life, it's about context. There are sexist contexts, but this wasn't one of them, imo. So the article didn't resonate with me because my reality just doesn't jive with the idea that any insult relating to the human body is gendered or has this gendered intention. It's also just neither here nor there because the people using those aren't thinking on that level of "i'm gonna fuck up her womanhood for the sake of symbolically putting down all women!" The language on the street might look objectively terrible to someone from the outside because they stupidly attribute some objective definition to those words. Do people actually envision the objects these words refer to when they say them? I don't know, but I think it's more likely that they've just become slang on their own with people's own intuitive definitions.

"Bitch," "dick," "asshole," "prick," "pussy," "ass," etc. can be used in a more casual context or they can be damn offensive when shouted angrily in a person's face. A lot of times they're in conjunction with some trait that's attributed to the word...an asshole cuts you off in traffic, an asshole also robs your house. First "asshole" is just a gut reaction to a slight annoyance, maybe if you talked to him, he'd explain what happened and you guys would become best buddies. Second one is a true asshole and most likely will remain a total asshole in your mind for the rest of your life. Such as "bitch" in this context, what she did was pretty damn bitchy.

"Cunt" is in a league of its own, however. I've heard girls jokingly use it, but I've never heard a guy say it without sounding malicious. "whore" is definitely female specific, slut can be gender neutral, though it depends on how much testosterone is in the circle.
 
Lambtron said:
People hate acknowledging and potentially losing some of their privilege, so I get it.
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I know. This one time I didn't call this woman that cut me off a bitch. I lost my "man privilege" for two whole weeks.
 
Nista said:
But it is reasonable to not date someone based on a hobby. I wouldn't want to date a football player cause I find football dull as dirt. Geekly pursuits don't have some protected nation status compared to the rest of humanity.
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Well that was always my problem with the original article: she didn't come off as someone who wasn't into Magic, and so wasn't interested in dating someone who was. She came off like she was judging him as a person for his hobby.
 
mtg players are quite sexist by and large, as are many nerd communities and the "white knighting" complaint is a classic deflection attempt.
 
The_Technomancer said:
What are those of us in middle called? The ones who hold down a handful of good relationships over their lives without either fucking a new girl every few weeks or remaining a virgin into their late 20s
Click to expand...

You're a theta male.
 
dschalter said:
mtg players are quite sexist by and large, as are many nerd communities and the "white knighting" complaint is a classic deflection attempt.
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No, it's a fair description of this behavior; defending a woman because she is a woman, even if she is an asshole.

This woman's behavior was appalling. She should be called out for it. Unfortunately, rather than make a private error in judgment in a small group of friends, she made it in front of the geek community. They heard her voice, now she gets to hear theirs.

Why should she be treated any differently than anyone else in the same position?

That would be sexist by virtue of treating women as second-class citizens that need special protection. I'll leave that kind of outdated thinking to the real misogynists.
 
The_Technomancer said:
I agree that the outcry about the article wasn't a pure "sexism in the nerd community" reaction, but you really aren't helping with the bolded :P

Also anyone who thinks that women don't usually have it tough in the "gaming community" are deluding themselves.
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i cleared it up in the next sentence though! i just can't take this article seriously. He's got a great point about there being sexism in gaming communities - and every kind of -ism possible, if we're honest - but he chose a terrible example. I wouldn't even say this reaction can be attributed purely to "nerds," story went prett-ay viral.
 
I was disappointed that he didn't make the point that one might not want to date a gamer because one may not be WELCOME in their hobbies.

I love playing Magic with my husband and our male friends. I don't think we've ever persuaded another woman to play with us for more than one or two games. And I just don't go to events. I tried in several different places and the result was always the same; everyone giving me a hostile look (I am a female nerd who looks it: the kind of girl nerds get angry with for expressing interest in them, not the kind they ask me for advice over), the guy I'm paired up with smiling behind his eyes that he got a bye for the round. And he pretty much did! I'm not very good. But when I go to have fun at FNM or whatever and my deck is lousy and I am lousy it's not just some lazy player who didn't read up on the latest blue/white weenie defense; I am a female who is shitty at Magic.

And yeah, I am there with my husband, because we both like Magic.

The only time I enjoyed myself at a Magic event was the time I went (I don't even know why I did this) and crocheted at the back, chatting with another abandoned girlfriend. YEAH. CROCHETED.

I know there are more male-dominated hobbies than this, but I have been 1000% better welcomed in all other subzones of my nerd-dom. WoW, D&D, wandering through wargame rooms wishing I had money, various sci-fi fandoms... Magic does a shitty job in particular in terms of its [hobby accessibility] to [acting like female participants are not three-headed] ratio. Even at PAX, the con where I've never been so happy and proud and accepted as a female nerd, I don't do the Magic tournament play because it's fucking uncomfortable as hell.

On the other hand, I thought Bereznak was an asshole about it. Just like the article author appears to have thought.
 
Nista said:
But it is reasonable to not date someone based on a hobby. I wouldn't want to date a football player cause I find football dull as dirt. Geekly pursuits don't have some protected nation status compared to the rest of humanity.
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That's where she and you are wrong. A person's hobby says very little about the compatibility they may have with you. Just as a football player might have a comic collection, be a genuinely nice and interesting guy, a gamer can be confident, responsible, and attractive in various endearing ways.

Regardless of what most gamers and most football players are like, it's irrational to base your view of a person by your perspective of their hobby.
 
I just can't get past his writing style. I'm sure he's got something important to say, so he should do it in a polished way if its important. I got past the first few sentences and just thought "no".

I'd gladly read a well structured paraphrasing by someone here who's bored enough/agrees enough with what he says to want more people to read it.

Of course I'm not saying I disagree with the main point I imagine he's making which is that there is sexism in nerd dominated communities and its something that needs to be fixed, but I doubt it will be so long as most places like gaf and XBL are dominated by men mostly because these industries are usually pandering to men and boys to begin with and ignoring the fact that there are females(no matter how minuscule the amount) who want a piece of the pie.
 
ronito said:
You think Nerds are misogynistic? Try hanging out with alphas.
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The response is basically the same, "The girl is a bitch". Its not like a male nerd isn't a completely different being compared to a jock or some other cliche.

Article is too long for its own good and pretty fucking annoying, but it wasn't entirely wrong either. Most of it is simply girls trying to be in more male dominated hobbies.
 
Nista said:
But it is reasonable to not date someone based on a hobby. I wouldn't want to date a football player cause I find football dull as dirt. Geekly pursuits don't have some protected nation status compared to the rest of humanity.

She was a total jerk about it, but it's not useful to date people expecting them to change to suit you in the future.

The article is a bit meandering in places, but parts are worth thinking about. There's a reason that Girl-GAF isn't as outspoken as the rest of you guys. ;)
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You and her can not date someone based on their fucking sneeze if you want. No one is forcing you to date anyone. You can not date a football player, but why do you care that he or she likes football? Unless some traits of it disturb you (they don't shower after it or they constantly talk about it and you don't care etc.)
The point is, rejecting someone in a snap judgement based on a hobby makes you look like a jerk. If you don't want to look like a jerk, don't post the jerky reason you reject potential mates.

She wrote a blog post about it, and now the internet thinks she's a jerk, seems fair to me.
 
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