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EFF seeks to expand DMCA exemptions: Mama Robotnik shall be vindicated!

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-seeks-widen-exemptions-won-last-dmca-rulemaking

In the exemption requests filed today, EFF asked the Copyright Office to protect the "jailbreaking" of smartphones, electronic tablets, and video game consoles
If you missed any of the many threads dealing with the hacking of the PS3, you probably have no clue to the Mama Robotnik reference. Suffice it to say, MR was basically vilified by a large number of people for donating money to support the right to jailbreak devices you own. Robotnik, as well as myself and many others, saw massive parallels between the smartphone exemption and videogame consoles. Others concluded, despite videogames never being asked for originally, that if no exemption was granted, then they are apples and oranges. Yesterday, the EFF agreed with those taking that stance and filed to have videogame consoles included in the exemption.

The good stuff (consoles) starts on page 19 of the request: https://www.eff.org/sites/default/files/filenode/2012_dmca_exemption_requests_no_appendix.pdf
Anything bolded will be my emphasis for clarity.
III. Proposed Class #2: Circumvention Necessary for “Jailbreaking” Video Game
Consoles
Proposed class: Computer programs that enable video game consoles to execute lawfully
obtained software applications, where circumvention is undertaken for the sole purpose of
enabling interoperability of such applications with computer programs on the gaming
console.

However, their efforts to gain control over the device have occurred under the threat of litigation by console manufacturers, including claims under § 1201.

EFF sees the parallels:
In the 2009 rulemaking, the Copyright Office recognized that allowing users to decrypt and modify a device’s firmware to enable the device to interoperate with lawfully obtained applications fosters fair use, competition and innovation. The same rationale applies to video game console jailbreaking for similar purposes of interoperability.

The technological restrictions on video game console jailbreaking do not protect the value or integrity of the copyrighted work; rather, they reflect a business decision to restrict the applications that users can run on the device.

Why it can hurt independent game development:
However, even if an independent game developer had the financial resources to pay for the official development kit, console manufacturers often refuse to license the software if the developer is not an established game company
Approval is also contingent on developers sharing a portion of the application’s profits with the console manufacturer

The real purpose of restricting user's rights (hint: same as smartphones)
Console manufacturers have employed technological restrictions for the sole purpose of protecting a business model, leaving users unable to install applications and operating systems of their own choosing.

It appears that the process of console jailbreaking depends on defeating restrictions that at least one console manufacturer has argued are protected by § 1201(a)(1)’s circumvention ban, thereby putting consumers who jailbreak their own consoles at risk of legal liability

Sony has maintained that this decryption and modification constitutes circumvention in violation of § 1201(a)(1), even if undertaken by console owners solely for the purpose of running legitimately obtained applications from independent sources.
Sony’s known desire to litigate highlights the very real need for the proposed exemption to be granted in order to ensure that non-infringing, beneficial activities such as scientific research and creative software development continue to flourish on video game consoles.
Console manufacturers maintain that technical restrictions are necessary to limit the piracy of game content. However, the process of jailbreaking a console does not itself allow the console to play illegitimate copies of games.

This parallel argument smackdown delivered by the EFF and sponsored by Mama Robotnik and Co.:
In the previous rulemaking, the Register correctly determined that jailbreaking a smartphone for purposes of making operating systems interoperable with independently created applications is a non-infringing fair use. Conducting a similar analysis shows that the circumvention of DRM on video game consoles for the purpose of running independently created software is also a noninfringing fair use.
That conclusion applies equally well whether the device in question is a video game console or a smartphone and the fair use analysis for Proposed Class #2 is virtually identical to the fair use analysis for Proposed Class #1, above

As such, console jailbreaking, like smartphone jailbreaking, fits comfortably within
the transformative purposes found to be fair in the leading Ninth Circuit cases on fair use

I actually debated some using the Sega case. Apparently the EFF also agrees here as well:
Congress has in fact recognized Sega’s finding of transformative quality of interoperability. When enacting the DMCA, Congress created § 1201(f) to explicitly protect reverse engineering and interoperability, and to “ensure that the effect of [Sega] is not changed by the enactment of [the DMCA].” S. Rep. No. 105-190, at 32.
In the 2009 rulemaking proceeding, the Register noted the minimal
importance of the third factor, stating that “In a case where the alleged infringement consists of the making of an unauthorized derivative work, and the only modifications are as de minimis as they are here, the fact that iPhone users are using almost the entire iPhone firmware for the purpose for which it was provided to them by Apple undermines the significance of this factor.”210 Similarly, video game console jailbreaks feature only de minimis modifications

Opponents of an exemption for Proposed Class #2 may complain that jailbreaking video game consoles could create security or other risks that might affect the operation of the device. But the Register concluded in her previous recommendation that the fourth factor was not designed to protect manufacturers of smartphones from potential incidental damage

As with smartphones and tablets, console firmware protections have not been put into place by manufacturers seeking to protect the copyrighted console firmware. Rather, they exist to preserve various aspects of the manufacturers business interests—interests that the Register have already determined to be unrelated to the purpose of this proceeding. See Section II.E.5 above for full analysis.

The proposal for the extension on smartphones, as well as the addition of tablets and videogame consoles will be heard in the spring of 2012. The decision should be handed out in October of 2012. Anyone accepting the right to jailbreak phones must also see how there is no difference between the phone exemption and the proposed videogame console exemption. Those claiming the phone exemption was for "unlocking" to move between carriers are either being willfully dishonest (that was a completely separate exemption existing years before the jailbreaking of phones exemption), or simply unaware of the facts.
Hail the EFF! Strike the trumpets for Mama Robotnik. Vindication shan't be denied!
 
Suffice it to say, MR was basically vilified by a large number of people for donating money to support the right to jailbreak devices you own.
I thought it was more to do with giving money to Geohotz. He was a tool but had a point which was why MR gave him five bucks.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
I thought it was more to do with giving money to Geohotz. He was a tool but had a point which was why MR gave him five bucks.

He explained several times why he gave him money. It was to support those that believe we should be able to do as we wish with devices we own. Throughout those PS3 threads, those supporting jailbreaking for consoles were told there was just no similarity between phones and consoles. In reality, the similarities are overwhelming.
 

JaseC

gave away the keys to the kingdom.
I thought it was more to do with giving money to Geohotz. He was a tool but had a point which was why MR gave him five bucks.

And I think that was due to the brief assumption that Gh used the money to run/fund his holiday.
 

Cruzader

Banned
He explained several times why he gave him money. It was to support those that believe we should be able to do as we wish with devices we own. Throughout those PS3 threads, those supporting jailbreaking for consoles were told there was just no similarity between phones and consoles. In reality, the similarities are overwhelming.
You can JB an iPhone and install Cydia and buy "indie apps". You will probably never be able to do this on a hacked console so to me both phone and consoles are apples to oranges when it comes to this.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
I can't see how any consumer could be against this.
It doesn't make any logical sense to be against it unless you are also against phones being jailbroken. However, if anyone was around for the many threads on the PS3 hacking, you would see a good amount of people arguing fair use doesn't apply to consoles and there's nothing parallel between the phone exemptions and what should be allowed for consoles.

You can JB an iPhone and install Cydia and buy "indie apps". You will probably never be able to do this on a hacked console so to me both phone and consoles are apples to oranges when it comes to this.

Already wrong. You can do that very thing with the Wii in a strikingly similar fashion with the homebrew channel. On the other systems, there are a number of homebrew applications and games. The delivery system need not be like Cydia for the idea to be the same. In the end, the idea is that consumers should not be told they cannot use third party software on devices they own. Also, did you read the request from page 19 on? The EFF spells out, in great detail, how they are exactly the same. They even choose to say there is no need to levy the same arguments, the LoC can reference the phone exemption, and they would simply add to the arguments.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
Already wrong. You can do that very thing with the Wii in a strikingly similar fashion with the homebrew channel. On the other systems, there are a number of homebrew applications and games. The delivery system need not be like Cydia for the idea to be the same. In the end, the idea is that consumers should not be told they cannot use third party software on devices they own. Also, did you read the request from page 19 on? The EFF spells out, in great detail, how they are exactly the same. They even choose to say there is no need to levy the same arguments, the LoC can reference the phone exemption, and they would simply add to the arguments.
Actually, you can even use the Homebrew Browser to download software and small games in a store-like frontend. It's pretty much like Cydia.
Pretty old video showcasing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic7bnxrmZj4
 
I support this initiative but at the same time, I support the right of platform holders to ban/keep these modded systems off their network.
 
He explained several times why he gave him money. It was to support those that believe we should be able to do as we wish with devices we own
Yeah, I remember his explanations. People that didn't agree with him were being fanboys, thought Geohotz was a huge douche who shouldn't be supported with anything, thought that that the whole console jailbreaking thing should be supported through some other way, or fell into a combination of these groups. I think I fell into the second one, haha.

And I think that was due to the brief assumption that Gh used the money to run/fund his holiday.
Yeah, I definitely remembered that.
 

Foffy

Banned
I support this initiative but at the same time, I support the right of platform holders to ban/keep these modded systems off their network.

That sounds fair. That's why if I tampered with my consoles, I would expect that their online networks would boot me from their services due to fear that my machine may be a pirate box.

I just don't like people assuming homebrew and hacks like jailbreaking are only done for piracy. If you look at the DS scene, homebrew/flashcards are used for a lot of fan translating projects for games that should have been released in English.
 

evolution

Member
I hope this works out. I think it will force Sony and the rest to provide more compelling features to dissuade people from jail-breaking. As long as they do, piracy won't be a major problem and they won't have to raise prices to make up for the loss of revenue.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
I support this initiative but at the same time, I support the right of platform holders to ban/keep these modded systems off their network.

I completely agree. I can't remember a single person arguing they should be allowed access to the platform holder's network. Now, the only problem that could arise from this exemption is the platform holder being forced to allow you access to their network. Jailbreaking an iPhone does not deny you access to the iTunes store and should not. I think trying to ban people from the store would find Apple afoul of the ruling. Basically punishing those people exercising their right.

People could say that console mfrs similarly have no right to withhold access to the network just because a system was jailbroken. Instead, they would have to prove someone violated copyright (playing a game they never purchased or whatnot) or is cheating on the service.
 

JWong

Banned
I hope this works out. I think it will force Sony and the rest to provide more compelling features to dissuade people from jail-breaking. As long as they do, piracy won't be a major problem and they won't have to raise prices to make up for the loss of revenue.

It shouldn't be up to Sony to fight for themselves on their own consoles. It should be up to the Jailbreaking programmers to be responsible for making their software unable to cause the console to be pirated.

Sony and Microsoft will just ban people for jailbreaking as they already do.
 
thisisneogafdude.gif

People on NeoGAF will literally defend anything. And I mean literally.

a number of people on neogaf aren't 'consumers' in the sense that it's generally meant. they're slavishly defensive of a single brand, and that isn't the actions of a consumer, but a corporate cheerleader.

i love my modded Wii more than ever right now. it let me rip Skywards Sword to my PC to enjoy it in Dolphin. i used the homebrew browser to download a save game management tool.

Gecko lets me play my gamecube imports (don't have any wii ones).

i hope this goes through. there are enough legitimate uses for me to want to see system modding clearly stated as being legal. everyone needs to remember that piracy will remain illegal.

It shouldn't be up to Sony to fight for themselves on their own consoles. It should be up to the Jailbreaking programmers to be responsible for making their software unable to cause the console to be pirated.
it really should be up to Sony. you're saying the courts and the police et al should defend Sony from having someone run Scumm VM on a PSP?

Sony and Microsoft will just ban people for jailbreaking as they already do.
which i'm totally fine with.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
It shouldn't be up to Sony to fight for themselves on their own consoles.
the fuck?

a number of people on neogaf aren't 'consumers' in the sense that it's generally meant. they're slavishly defensive of a single brand, and that isn't the actions of a consumer, but a corporate cheerleader.

Yeah, the majority of the people previously were most likely in this category. There were others though that just couldn't find any way phones and consoles could be compared...at all.
 

Cruzader

Banned
It doesn't make any logical sense to be against it unless you are also against phones being jailbroken. However, if anyone was around for the many threads on the PS3 hacking, you would see a good amount of people arguing fair use doesn't apply to consoles and there's nothing parallel between the phone exemptions and what should be allowed for consoles.



Already wrong. You can do that very thing with the Wii in a strikingly similar fashion with the homebrew channel. On the other systems, there are a number of homebrew applications and games. The delivery system need not be like Cydia for the idea to be the same. In the end, the idea is that consumers should not be told they cannot use third party software on devices they own. Also, did you read the request from page 19 on? The EFF spells out, in great detail, how they are exactly the same. They even choose to say there is no need to levy the same arguments, the LoC can reference the phone exemption, and they would simply add to the arguments.
That was not my point.

My point is a legitimate reason to JB an iPhone? Well people do that since they want wifi hotspot feature that Apple blocks. So they JB, install Cydia and then legally buy Cydia App.

They are JB their phones to make a proper transaction. This alone to me makes it different than console hacking.

On console hacking, there is no such thing. Gamers won't be JB a console to pay for their emulators, apps etc since JB/hacking consoles tends to open the floodgates for piracy. (note: not calling JBers hackers or generalizing)

Anyways I'll leave it as that. Whatever happens with the law will happen. I'm good.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
That was not my point.

My point is a legitimate reason to JB an iPhone? Well people do that since they want wifi hotspot feature that Apple blocks. So they JB, install Cydia and then legally buy Cydia App.

They are JB their phones to make a proper transaction. This alone to me makes it different than console hacking.

On console hacking, there is no such thing. Gamers won't be JB a console to pay for their emulators, apps etc since JB/hacking consoles tends to open the floodgates for piracy. (note: not calling JBers hackers or generalizing)

Anyways I'll leave it as that. Whatever happens with the law will happen. I'm good.
Uhm, are you implying a jailbreak is only legit if you pay money for the applications you get, and it stops being so if you do it for free applications?
There are plenty of useful apps on the Wii thanks to homebrew, what's different between them and the ones you find on Cydia? And how would the PS3 be different from the Wii?
 

JWong

Banned
it really should be up to Sony. you're saying the courts and the police et al should defend Sony from having someone run Scumm VM on a PSP?

which i'm totally fine with.

A legal system should oversee these programs and whether or not they easily allow piracy. Did you really believe Geohot is completely innocent saying that his jailbreak does not allow piracy?

The only thing Sony can do is to make online more appealing, which it already is, and they will ban you, which you're fine with.

If piracy does become a huge issue, and it is a big issue, do you want Sony to add online DRM to all PS3 games? Let's say that you can't even run your disc unless you sign into PSN?
 
A legal system should oversee these programs and whether or not they easily allow piracy. Did you really believe Geohot is completely innocent saying that his jailbreak does not allow piracy?
so further tax dollars should be spent protecting corporate interests? it's enough for piracy to be illegal. go after the people uploading and hosting games, and the people downloading them.

jail breaking allows any code to run on the hardware. of course that ALLOWS piracy... but that a jail broken system can be used to break the law doesn't mean that jail broken systems should be illegal.

there are valid legal uses, so it should be legal. something like the 360 hacks which JUST enable piracy, i'd have no problem with those being illegal, but that isn't what the PSP, PS3, DS and Wii hacks do. i have literally zero interest in hacking my 360, because i buy my games. i choose not to jailbreak my PS3 because i value PSN more than what homebrew offers. on the Wii and PSP, where the online is pretty valueless to me, i greatly value what homebrew gets me there.

The only thing Sony can do is to make online more appealing, which it already is, and they will ban you, which you're fine with.

If piracy does become a huge issue, and it is a big issue, do you want Sony to add online DRM to all PS3 games? Let's say that you can't even run your disc unless you sign into PSN?
i am against piracy in all forms. i don't condone it. i don't think it should be understated.

Sony can take whatever measures they want to try to protect their own stuff. if they use overly invasive DRM they will lose sales. if they think that's worth cutting out piracy that's up to them.

just as its up to them to secure their system.
 

XiaNaphryz

LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Uhm, are you implying a jailbreak is only legit if you pay money for the applications you get, and it stops being so if you do it for free applications?
There are plenty of useful apps on the Wii thanks to homebrew, what's different between them and the ones you find on Cydia? And how would the PS3 be different from the Wii?
There's also the case of wanting to play legitimately bought software from other regions.
 
I certainly feel obligated to respond, if anything to give a bit more context to the thread title.

This subject drove GAF mental for what seems the entirety of January and February, and was by far the most divisive I have ever seen things get here. There was explosive rage in those threads.

There were literally Playstation enthusiasts directly calling for Geohot (and other homebrew coders) to be raped as punishment for the exploits they had found and the offence caused to the Sony brand. It was completely crazy. Dozens were loudly cheering the company on as, in its temporary madness, it was subpoenaing private details of people who dared to watch homebrew videos and discussed the mathematics behind the exploit methodology on Slashdot.

Crazy times.

Elaboration: I can't stand Geohot, he's an unpleasant if a somewhat talented hacker. My dislike of him was nothing in comparison to my concerns about the consequences of a Sony victory. So, I donated a fiver to his legal fees via Paypal with no regrets to this day.

Of course, then someone made up a lie and I took a rather long pounding, and there were later more than thirty attempts to hack into my GAF account because some disgruntled fan tried to publicise my account password as "donate2geohot" (the link is to the person who found it for me).

So yeah even with that happening, still no regrets.

Back on topic, really hope the EFF gets this through. I'm passionate that we should own our hardware and not rent it, and if we choose to tinker with our property then so be it. I have never objected to a company choosing to ban a modified console from their network services, to me there is nothing unreasonably about that.

As a consumer, I still find it difficult to imagine a mindset that would oppose a move like this.
 
It amazes me how often people will root for corporations over themselves.

People should be happy when a jailbreak comes out for a device they own. Opening up the platform is a good thing for consumers. You own the product, you're not renting it, and you're free to do whatever you want with it so long as it's legal.
 
It amazes me how often people will root for corporations over themselves.

People should be happy when a jailbreak comes out for a device they own. Opening up the platform is a good thing for consumers. You own the product, you're not renting it, and you're free to do whatever you want with it so long as it's legal.

I think one of the most enraging ideas in those threads earlier this year, was that Sony somehow had an absolute right to remove OtherOS from a consumer's privately-owned property. To me, it was the most damning evidence of an industry that believes we merely rent our consoles rather than own them.

To this day, it beggars belief how many hundreds were leaping into the fray to support such revocation of consumer rights.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
They are JB their phones to make a proper transaction. This alone to me makes it different than console hacking.
You incorrectly state that there is a difference between the two. It's already been pointed out that the very same thing exists on Wii. It's also worth noting that purchasing something is not what differentiates being legal or "proper" and not. If the wifi hotspot app was free (which there are plenty that are), that does not negate the "properness" (it's a word now) of the transaction.

On console hacking, there is no such thing. Gamers won't be JB a console to pay for their emulators, apps etc since JB/hacking consoles tends to open the floodgates for piracy. (note: not calling JBers hackers or generalizing)
See above and again, just because things are offered by the developer of the software for free, does not negate it's legality or "properness". If I develop software that uses 10 PS3 to study human thinking and offer my software for free to others, but they MUST jailbreak their system to use it; that does not make what I've done any less "proper" than the guy selling an app.

A legal system should oversee these programs and whether or not they easily allow piracy.
The legal system already has punishments in place for those that pirate. Jailbreaking a phone also opens the phone up for piracy. Just because something COULD be used negatively, does not and never should negate its legal uses.

Did you really believe Geohot is completely innocent saying that his jailbreak does not allow piracy?
Ummm...Yes. His jailbreak did not allow for piracy. There were other steps required in order to pirate and using his CFW without modification would not allow it.


If piracy does become a huge issue, and it is a big issue, do you want Sony to add online DRM to all PS3 games? Let's say that you can't even run your disc unless you sign into PSN?
That's up to Sony and Apple futilely argued piracy in the phone jailbreaking exemption. The registrar rightly brought forth the smite upon their argument.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
I think one of the most enraging ideas in those threads earlier this year, was that Sony somehow had an absolute right to remove OtherOS from a consumer's privately-owned property. To me, it was the most damning evidence of an industry that believes we merely rent our consoles rather than own them.

To this day, it beggars belief how many hundreds were leaping into the fray to support such revocation of consumer rights.

It was even beyond that, if you recall. So many people didn't even think fair use should apply to a console. Regardless of other OS ever existing, they just couldn't fathom why fair use should apply to a videogame console just as it does a phone or many of the other electronic devices.
 
The problem with a softmod is that fucks with warranty and stuff.


Hardware Producers they should be forced to open their platforms to everybody (like a standard PC)
 
It was even beyond that, if you recall. So many people didn't even think fair use should apply to a console. Regardless of other OS ever existing, they just couldn't fathom why fair use should apply to a videogame console just as it does a phone or many of the other electronic devices.

Really? I wasn't remotely surprised when I considered the people who had those beliefs. The crowd would have been different if it was a Microsoft console or a Nintendo one. It still would have been a very predictable list though.
 

DiscoJer

Member
It's the corporate ballwasher type normally.

Or maybe, they see beyond the "Corporations are evil!" stereotype?

This place is crazy. It's about gaming, yet there is so much hate towards corporations and developers that actually make the games and hardware people play.

And of course, try to screw said companies and developers by using every trick in the book to get free legal games, like using grey market retail keys.

Corporations have every right to make money off of what they make.

What the EFF should be doing, is trying to work on length of copyright moving it back to the way it used to be (before Berne). While companies should be rewarded for making new stuff, in cases where they've bought IP that's been around for years, stuff like that should fall into the public domain.

(This mostly goes for books, but also games)

Beyond that, it's just self interest. You won't see companies subsidizing hardware as much, nor as many games developed, if a platform is plagued by piracy right out of the box (see the PSP as a drastic example of this)
 

Datschge

Member
This place is crazy. It's about gaming, yet there is so much hate towards corporations and developers that actually make the games and hardware people play.

And of course, try to screw said companies and developers by using every trick in the book to get free legal games, like using grey market retail keys.

Corporations have every right to make money off of what they make.
I'd make a very strong distinction between corporations and individuals. It's the abstract concept of corporations that's subverting civil rights through its lobbying, through its flexible application of selfmade laws in form of licenses, through its rules from which its own employees may not divert to not get fired. Most of the changes driven there do not benefit any individual, neither the employed creators nor the customers nor the citizen and tax payers of a country. At best all it benefits the few individuals that control influential corporations, but even this is become rare these days where possession is radically made anonymous through hedges and other funds.

If we talk about developers as the creators, the individuals who make games possible I'm sure the absolute majority agrees they should be rewarded accordingly. But the repeating horror stories about crunch times and the likes should make it obvious such rewards is not a given in this system. And similarly consumer friendliness is also not a given in this system.

I agree with you that EFF should try to work on length of copyright moving it back to the way it was meant to be. But I hope you're also aware that in the current environment such a change is little more than a pipe dream. This current effort at least is a feasible one as it shows an existing inconsistency in application of law that's comparatively easy to explain and push changes for. </ramble>
 
Or maybe, they see beyond the "Corporations are evil!" stereotype?

This place is crazy. It's about gaming, yet there is so much hate towards corporations and developers that actually make the games and hardware people play.

And of course, try to screw said companies and developers by using every trick in the book to get free legal games, like using grey market retail keys.

Corporations have every right to make money off of what they make.

What the EFF should be doing, is trying to work on length of copyright moving it back to the way it used to be (before Berne). While companies should be rewarded for making new stuff, in cases where they've bought IP that's been around for years, stuff like that should fall into the public domain.

(This mostly goes for books, but also games)

Beyond that, it's just self interest. You won't see companies subsidizing hardware as much, nor as many games developed, if a platform is plagued by piracy right out of the box (see the PSP as a drastic example of this)

I'm not entirely sure of your point, maybe its me.

By wanting a right to do what we want with our hardware, with the property we own, how are we demonstrating an unbridled "hate" of the company that manufactured it?

Do you feel that those opposed to Sony retroactively lobotomising OtherOS from their consumers privately-owned property had a point, or were just "hate"-ing?
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
There's also the case of wanting to play legitimately bought software from other regions.
Which is actually the reason why I installed homebrew on my Wii, to play the American (uncensored) version of No More Heroes.
 

obonicus

Member
The last few publication of exemptions were in 2000, 2003, 2006 and 2010. Seems like this wouldn't happen until 2013. Also I have strong doubts that the exemption would be issued.
 

IrishNinja

Member
a number of people on neogaf aren't 'consumers' in the sense that it's generally meant. they're slavishly defensive of a single brand, and that isn't the actions of a consumer, but a corporate cheerleader.

nail, meet head.

Or maybe, they see beyond the "Corporations are evil!" stereotype?

false dichotomy here, but i'm presuming you're borrowing notions from poli-GAF on the other side. gaming has tons of support for all but the most vile/anti-consumer of said corporations, and again, even they have their ballwashers.
 

GhaleonQ

Member
Geez, how did I miss this? This is the glorious console/handheld future to me. The logic's sound to me, though I don't know how it plays out legally.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
The last few publication of exemptions were in 2000, 2003, 2006 and 2010. Seems like this wouldn't happen until 2013. Also I have strong doubts that the exemption would be issued.
The case for the expanded exemptions will be heard in the spring and an order done in october of 2012. Once an order is made, they do not have to wait for publication, which can take until the start of the next year. I also wonder about your strong doubts of the exemption being issued? Can you elaborate as to why? This is not asking for a whole new exemption per se, but the expansion of an exemption already in place to cover similar devices. The argument is identical to the one presented for phones that was already approved. They've actually added to the argument to make the case for expansion even better.

Geez, how did I miss this? This is the glorious console/handheld future to me. The logic's sound to me, though I don't know how it plays out legally.
The LoC would be hard pressed to sight a difference in the functioning of two closed systems. Especially when the claim of fair use is identical. Both systems are closed systems which require manufacturer approval for software to function. The nature of the system being closed is not to protect the copyrighted work, but to protect the manufacturer's business interests. Those interests are unrelated to the purpose of exemptions.
EFF said:
In the previous rulemaking, the Register correctly determined that jailbreaking a smartphone for purposes of making operating systems interoperable with independently created applications is a non-infringing fair use. Conducting a similar analysis shows that the circumvention of DRM on video game consoles for the purpose of running independently created software is also a noninfringing fair use.

The only difference here might be that instead of Apple coming out guns blazing against this, we might get three companies working together to defeat it. However, if the expansion is defeated it creates a huge inconsistency in fair use of a closed system in which the purpose of being closed is to protect a business model.
 

Dragon

Banned
I think it's sort of disingenuous to not include the context of why MR was vilified. It was giving money to Geohotz when there was a rumor he was using donated money to go on holiday. I think that's a legitimate reason to disagree with a donation myself.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
I think it's sort of disingenuous to not include the context of why MR was vilified. It was giving money to Geohotz when there was a rumor he was using donated money to go on holiday. I think that's a legitimate reason to disagree with a donation myself.

I think it's also sort of disingenuous to pretend that is the whole reason he was vilified. There was a rumor, which was never true and he even donated the money to the EFF afterward. Secondly, it continued and spread to the very idea of supporting jailbreaking of systems and how many thought it shouldn't be allowed at all. In fact, a large number of people argued there were absolutely no parallels between phones and consoles. Let's not try to act like MR was only vilified because of Hotz going on a trip.
 

Zoe

Member
The only difference here might be that instead of Apple coming out guns blazing against this, we might get three companies working together to defeat it. However, if the expansion is defeated it creates a huge inconsistency in fair use of a closed system in which the purpose of being closed is to protect a business model.

Don't forget that exemptions have to be renewed. If the gaming one fails, there's a good chance they won't renew the exemption on phones.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
Don't forget that exemptions have to be renewed. If the gaming one fails, there's a good chance they won't renew the exemption on phones.

I'd love to see the argument on why, after being exempt for a few years now, phones would suddenly lose their exemption. Nothing has changed with them that would say an exemption is no longer necessary. I think it's easier to understand that since the phone one will most assuredly be renewed, there is little argument that exists for denying the expansion to consoles, tablets, etc. As I stated again and again to so many denials, the parallels are beyond just being parallels, they're identical in argument for jailbreaking the other closed devices. Technically, running a custom firmware on a tablet could find you in the crosshairs of an overzealous manufacturer. If they wanted to go Sony's route, they could sue developers at this point.

Knowing that, I would like to hear the argument against renewing the phone exemption after having it for a few years. If the phone exemption exists, there's no difference that could reasonably be sighted between phones and the devices sought in the expansion. It would merely create a huge inconsistency in what is fair use of a closed system. Fair use is fair use.
 

Tellaerin

Member
The problem with a softmod is that fucks with warranty and stuff.


Hardware Producers they should be forced to open their platforms to everybody (like a standard PC)

Fuck that.

The whole point of a closed, proprietary platform is that there's oversight. There's an approval process in place that (at least in theory) prevents outright broken software from being released, and more importantly, holds all developers to a certain standard of quality.

I don't have an issue with closed platforms. I don't have an issue with open ones, either. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, for consumers and developers alike. That's why it's worthwhile to own consoles and a PC. Categorically saying that closed platforms should not be allowed to exist is bullshit.

The ideal situation would be a platform that's open to hobbyists interested in legitimate homebrew, while at the same time having measures in place that would make it prohibitively difficult for anybody to just copy commercial games and run them on the system.
 
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