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Unlimited Credits/Free Play: The worst thing that can be done to classic arcade games

I

infinityBCRT

Member
I have been thinking about this issue for a while.

Most re-releases we've seen of arcade games on XBLA/PSN over this generation have had games set to Free Play mode, meaning that there wasn't much of a challenge to get through these classic games because you could just keep getting more lives and continuing on.

We've seen a lot of re-releases of previously beloved games like TMNT: The Arcade Game, The Simpsons Arcade game and the X-Men Arcade game. All of these re-releases have been panned due to their sheer simplicity and the ability to stomp through them pretty easily.

But these games weren't really designed around Free Play, and they end up really breaking down and becoming super simple. Outside of games with really nasty AI like Mortal Kombat 2 (where finishing the game on Free Play is an accomplishment on it's own), Free Play mode really diminishes the fun I have with many of these classic games.

I was playing Contra NES over the weekend with my brother-in-law, and that game is fucking hard. Regularly it's way too hard. But even with the Konami code (which gives you 30 lives * 5 continues instead of 3 lives * 5 continues I think) I still found that there was a tension to dying, and the game still felt challenging.

I think the lack of enthusiasm for these Arcade re-releases did have a little to do with the way they handled credits.

So developers, do it right going forward. Limit the credits you give-- play test and see whats a fair amount to give so that there's still a reasonable challenge. Look at home ports of these games (if available) and see how they handled their credits systems. If you must include an option to have Free Play-- disable achievements so that its not encouraged.

What does everyone else think about this?
 
L

Lavpa Jasai

Member
Ive been to some free play arcades recently and I don't think that free play destroys the games as much as exposes that the games really weren't all that great to begin with when its not hiding behind 10 min pay sessions. Playing these games free play really shows just HOW quarter hungry these machines were.
 
J

joeblow

Member
Eh, put a self-imposed restriction on yourself. Many arcade vets didn't consider a game beat unless they could do it on one credit (or, harder yet, one life). I remember getting the best ranking possible on Golden Axe by not even losing one bar of health, let alone losing a life or continuing with more credits.
 
B

BigDug13

Member
How would you fix it? It's an arcade game. If you had a pocket full of quarters these games were equally beatable and "easy". Should they charge you a pocket full of quarters to do it old school style?
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
Computer said:
That C word again. Why would you have to get frustrated for fun?
Click to expand...

Well-- these games weren't designed for the E word-- experience. Unlike modern games (which are more and more about experiencing the game rather than having a challenge), older arcade games were really all about the challenge.

I'm not saying they have to have an infuriating level of challenge-- but enough that you don't have to not care about actually playing the game properly.

I'm personally not a guy who likes hardcore challenges either. I don't begrudge a modern game for being too easy if the experience feels right.

BigDug13 said:
How would you fix it? It's an arcade game. If you had a pocket full of quarters these games were equally beatable and "easy". Should they charge you a pocket full of quarters to do it old school style?
Click to expand...

Well again, look at how they did it in home conversions for these arcade games. Most ports back then didn't have Free Play mode. The developers likely play tested the game and selected what an appropriate amount of Credits was to get through a game while playing reasonably well.
 
H

Hero_of_the_Day

Member
The games were made to be fucking insanely hard to get more quarters out of you. So, they either rebalance the entire game, or just give infinite continues.

The easy choice is obvious.

infinityBCRT said:
Well-- these games weren't designed for the E word-- experience. Unlike modern games (which are more and more about experiencing the game rather than having a challenge), older arcade games were really all about the challenge.
Click to expand...

They were about getting as many quarters out of you as they could.
 
A

Anth0ny

Member
It definitely ruins the difficulty of those games. I smashed X-Men Arcade in like 20 minutes.

The solution is to just get good enough to do a one credit run, or maybe a less strict, self imposed restriction on lives lost.
 
Deft Beck

Deft Beck

Member
It might not be the exact same experience, but there's nothing stopping you from imposing your own limitations.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
Hero_of_the_Day said:
They were about getting as many quarters out of you as they could.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but many home ports had a good balance by giving you a limited amount of credits.

Wheeliedude said:
It might not be the exact same experience, but there's nothing stopping you from imposing your own limitations.
Click to expand...

two things

1. I'd probably look like an ass if I was sitting around with a group of 4 friends and said "hey lets play X-Men arcade! but don't continue more than 5 times!". They'd be like "yeah, whatever". And I'm sure that would go for anyone else trying to make their friends impose limitations on theirselves
2. I think the lack of sales on these classic games (and the reason why we're seeing less and less straight up ports of classic games) is partially because the buzz has been bad on these re-release due to the lack of challenge. So I'd rather have these games come out, be reasonably challenging, and have people enjoy them and buy copies of them rather than have no developers make them anymore because no one really finds them fun due to Free Play.

I don't know, there was just some spark that went through me when I played Contra NES this weekend. It was like... man, this is the way these classic games should feel like. I'm actually thinking about obtaining an SNES copy of Turtles in Time now so that I can play that game with a reasonable challenge rather than just stomping through the arcade version on Free Play (that being said, sadly theres no proper modern re-release of Turtles in Time so its not like I can do that anyway! :( )
 
C

ChesterCharm

Neo Member
limiting credits on difficult games forces you to invest more time/money (to get better to beat) or just drop it all together.

i'm in the middle. i just want to have fun. with reasonable difficulty.
 
O

Ocaso

Member
BigDug13 said:
How would you fix it? It's an arcade game. If you had a pocket full of quarters these games were equally beatable and "easy". Should they charge you a pocket full of quarters to do it old school style?
Click to expand...

There are several things. OP mentions Simpsons arcade as an example, but that was a game that did it right by providing gameplay modes with limited credits that simulated going to an arcade with only a few bucks to your name and even had a survival mode. Sure, it had free mode, but it had sense enough to understand that free mode can sap some fun from the game.

The worst offender is X Men arcade. We got an awesome port of a classic arcade game, but without a credit limit people just spam the special move and turn the whole experience into a dull exercise in mindless, skill-less repetition. A shame.

Hero_of_the_Day said:
The games were made to be fucking insanely hard to get more quarters out of you. So, they either rebalance the entire game, or just give infinite continues.

The easy choice is obvious.
Click to expand...

Given that no game requires literally infinite continues, the easy choice is merely easy and certainly not the smart one if it breaks the game. Play test, figure out a reasonable number of credits, and add a mode with a credit limit. At the very least put in some achievement/trophy to show you recognize that some gamers want to get good at their games and not rely on crutches.
 
T

TheFightingFish

Member
I feel like a year or two ago I would have totally been against you, but after getting into SHMUPs a bit more this year I fully see where you are coming from. Don't get me wrong, an unlimited option should be there for folks who just want to see the game, but I would love to see developers hide it away a little more and encourage (via scoreboards, achievements, default settings) players to play these types of games with more limited options. The games are obviously designed to quarter munch, so I don't think that I advocate 1CC being default, but you are totally correct that making unlimited continues the default sets up the game in a way that removes much of the challenge from playing it. Feels almost like playing DOOM and having the default have iddqd and idkfa all on and having to go into an options menu to turn them off. Sure, they are fun to play with and should be included, but the game should be configured in a default way to be a fun challenge to learn and progress in.

It does take a bit of re-orienting your brain if you are used to most modern games where you are expected to just cruise through them with nary a setback or death. But once you get set on the idea that you play the game to practice and get better at it things really start to settle in. It's a really great feeling for me when I would finally break into a new level when playing Akai Katana with just my initial default lives and no continues. And it's a feeling that just wouldn't be matched if I just hammered on continue to get through the game after each death.

So what I would like to see would be something like reasonable default settings to add challenge ($1 of quarters, 3 continues and so on) with options to drop down to hardcore (1CC) modes or options to move into unlimited continues mode.
 
K

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Another strategy for credit usage in an arcade port might be leaderboards only for those who finish within a certain number of credits. You can continue after say, 4, 6, and 8 coins but each tier kicks you to a lower and lower board. After 8 you don't rate. So you can choose to keep playing for fun, or bail and start over.
 
Fonz72

Fonz72

Member
I enjoy having "Free play." I suck at arcade style games, and it's nice to see the end for a change.

Just because free play is enabled doesn't mean you have to use it. When the continue screen comes up, just pretend that your mom is done with her shopping and you are out of quarters. Time to pack it up and head home to hit the NES.

Good old days............................I miss arcades.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
ChesterCharm said:
limiting credits on difficult games forces you to invest more time/money (to get better to beat) or just drop it all together.

i'm in the middle. i just want to have fun. with reasonable difficulty.
Click to expand...

Thats exactly what I'm talking about. Not mind crushing difficulty. Maybe they can even offer like 3 or 4 options of varying credits (ex: 1, 5, 10 or 25) and give you achievements based on that. But if you turn on Free Play, have it disable ALL achievements.
 
B

border

Member
A great many of the games you're talking about were pretty much designed to eat your quarters, so I don't see how limiting credits becomes much more than an exercise in frustration.

My lack of enthusiasm over arcade re-releases is that they generally look like garbage when blown up to HD resolution, and filters generally ruin the style and look of a game.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
Ocaso said:
There are several things. OP mentions Simpsons arcade as an example, but that was a game that did it right by providing gameplay modes with limited credits that simulated going to an arcade with only a few bucks to your name and even had a survival mode. Sure, it had free mode, but it had sense enough to understand that free mode can sap some fun from the game.
Click to expand...

I mentioned TMNT, Simpsons and X-Men because those were definitely the ones people were looking forward to the most at the start of this gen. I didn't remember that Simpsons had those modes, but if so that's great. Maybe they weren't a primary mode? I remember playing the game with my wife and not really having much fun with it because we kept on just mashing our way through it.

border said:
A great many of the games you're talking about were pretty much designed to eat your quarters, so I don't see how limiting credits becomes much more than an exercise in frustration.

My lack of enthusiasm over arcade re-releases is that they generally look like garbage when blown up to HD resolution, and filters generally ruin the style and look of a game.
Click to expand...

For sure, but theres a balancing act that can be played by limiting those games to the right amount of credits that make it an interesting challenge.

As far as them looking like garbage-- I think everyone has their preference for the way they should look. I like those vaseline filters on some games, I like scanlines on others. And I still think some old school games still look fucking fantastic. I loved the look of Super Metroid when I played through it last year.
 
H

Hero_of_the_Day

Member
infinityBCRT said:
Fair enough, but many home ports had a good balance by giving you a limited amount of credits.
Click to expand...

I don't know that I've played that many arcade games with home ports. But, from my limited experience there was far more done than just credit and lives limits.

Galaga sticks out in my mind the most since I'll never forget the first time I played it at arcades and just being blown away by how ridiculously hard it was. It does suck that their answer to this in the modern day is just to give unlimited continues, for sure. The home version of Galaga is still one of my favorite games ever. Whereas something like the X-Men Arcade Game on XBLA was played for about a week and then never touched again.

They are just throwing the roms up as quickly, easily, and lazily as possible. It's better than nothing, and maybe there's just not enough money in it to actually spend time on making a real port. I don't know.
 
S

southerncross

Member
TheFightingFish said:
It does take a bit of re-orienting your brain if you are used to most modern games where you are expected to just cruise through them with nary a setback or death. But once you get set on the idea that you play the game to practice and get better at it things really start to settle in. It's a really great feeling for me when I would finally break into a new level when playing Akai Katana with just my initial default lives and no continues. And it's a feeling that just wouldn't be matched if I just hammered on continue to get through the game after each death.
Click to expand...

QFT since I'm afraid most people will be just happily oblivious to why 1CCs are so satisfying. These games are designed to be like mountain climbing, not carefree hiking. By creditfeeding, you won't get a full experience, you won't explore the game's ruleset fully.

I don't know if locking continues is a good idea, but people should be taught that good arcade games were always meant/possible to be 1CC'd. It pains me whenever I see uninformed stuff like "arcade games were always meant to be beaten by quarter feeding/to suck you dry", and it's something I see both in media and on hardcore forums. BS.
 
V

Valnen

Member
They could give you the real arcade experience instead and make it free to download, but if you want to play you have to pay 25 cents subtracted from your PSN wallet/Xbox money.

Of course many people would throw a fit if they did that, so...
 
A

Archaix

Drunky McMurder
Lavpa Jasai said:
Ive been to some free play arcades recently and I don't think that free play destroys the games as much as exposes that the games really weren't all that great to begin with when its not hiding behind 10 min pay sessions. Playing these games free play really shows just HOW quarter hungry these machines were.
Click to expand...



Yeah, they were mostly just terribly designed as games but well-designed when profit is concerned. In 15-20 years if anybody gives a good god damn about current Facebook/Mobile games that require in-app purchase for more time, they would likely be unlimited play too in any re-release. It would make for a more "authentic" experience but wouldn't improve the game itself.

There's always an option to limit the number of credits you have. Stop pressing continue. I can almost understand wanting it to be an option for leaderboards, but those are just expanding the high score concept and any high score that doesn't reset with a continue anyway would have been subject to people just buying their way to the top of the board.
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
You're talking about a generation of people that grew up with save states in their MAME games. So, it's kind of an expected feature when playing old games.
 
X

XxSlasherMcGirkxX

Member
After X-Men and Simpons arcade PSN purchases I am not going to buy another unlimited credit arcade game. I never liked the idea and it really hampered my fun with both titles. I like a little challange in my arcade games. It so pointless in playing when you automatically win, you seriously can't lose. I'm not saying the game has to be insanely difficult or i have to limit myself to a ridiculous self imposed 1 credit rule.

You can keep free play mode but at least create some difficulty. There's no reason why these arcade up ports can't have a difficulty setting or a created limited lives or continue system.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
Archaix said:
There's always an option to limit the number of credits you have. Stop pressing continue. I can almost understand wanting it to be an option for leaderboards, but those are just expanding the high score concept and any high score that doesn't reset with a continue anyway would have been subject to people just buying their way to the top of the board.
Click to expand...

I have started to do this recently when playing Mortal Kombat, but I still think you have to be really knee deep in thinking about a game to even get to the realization you should be doing this on these old games. Also-- I still wouldn't know what should be a fair amount of credits I limit myself to until I beat the game at least once.

And it should already be limited by default so that most people experience the game that way. You always want to put the way most people should experience the game as the default thing because thats the way most people will play it.
 
F

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
The worst example of this is Gauntlet.

That entire game was based around how much money you were willing to put into it. Given unlimited continues, the game is pointless.
 
T

Tain

Member
lol, "horribly-designed quarter munchers".

I haven't played a single Japanese arcade game where beating it with no continues is unfair.

I have trouble taking opinions about 2D action games seriously from people who can't understand the enjoyment of trying to 1cc a Cave game or a Capcom belt scroll game or whatever.
 
S

Sez

Member
FlyinJ said:
The worst example of this is Gauntlet.

That entire game was based around how much money you were willing to put into it. Given unlimited continues, the game is pointless.
Click to expand...

All the arcade games were Pay to Win. They only was hard for poor kids.
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
Those games were designed to suck your quarters dry. It became such a pervasive part of the experience that it was still common even in NES games (SMB3 still had Lives which preserved progress and continues which reset the world you were on).

The fact that some people could 1CC them was probably seen as bait to lure in people who weren't that good (ie most players) and that's not counting that by the time you could get 1CC them they probably had a LOT of quarters out of you. A lot of those games had mechanics that were obscure enough that you wouldn't intuit them and their instructions were terrible.
 
S

Syril

Member
FlyinJ said:
The worst example of this is Gauntlet.

That entire game was based around how much money you were willing to put into it. Given unlimited continues, the game is pointless.
Click to expand...

The original arcade Gauntlet literally had no ending, and your score was cut in half every time you added a credit.
 
M

magnetic

Member
Tain said:
lol, "horribly-designed quarter munchers".

I haven't played a single Japanese arcade game where beating it with no continues is unfair.

I have trouble taking opinions about 2D action games seriously from people who can't understand the enjoyment of trying to 1cc a Cave game or a Capcom belt scroll game or whatever.
Click to expand...

I agree, the best arcade games are super hard, but not actually impossible. Even games that start to kick you in the teeth for surviving for too long, like Battle Garegga or Ibara, making you actively suicide for scoring and earning extends.

Every good arcade port should have a stage select mode, though. I loved playing stage 3 and 4 of Dodonpachi over and over without going through 1 and 2 first. I like practicing hard parts, as long as I don´t have to spend 15 minutes each time to get there.

Playing for score changes the whole nature of arcade games, anyway. Playing shmups just to get through them is rather boring.
 
T

TAFK

Member
We have an arcade near me, Galloping Ghost. Its 15 dollars and all games are set on F2P. Honestly I must say it's one of the best arcade experiences I have had in my life, if I want to limit myself to only a few credits I can but sometimes its more enjoyable to keep putting 'Quarters' into the machine as I die because I just want to play. Don't see the argument here.
 
Y

Yes Boss!

Member
People play games however they feel. If it means self-imposed limits or continuing all the way through. It does not matter.

I would not sweat it. And if it matters then simply don't continue...or continue a few times like you would have back in the day.

If it takes free play to keep these games releasin and current then I'm all for it.
 
S

Sez

Member
TAFK said:
We have an arcade near me, Galloping Ghost. Its 15 dollars and all games are set on F2P. Honestly I must say it's one of the best arcade experiences I have had in my life, if I want to limit myself to only a few credits I can but sometimes its more enjoyable to keep putting 'Quarters' into the machine as I die because I just want to play. Don't see the argument here.
Click to expand...

The same with the "new" x-men arcade. You can just avoid pressing start every time you die.
 
I

infinityBCRT

Member
So the couple of common arguments against limiting credits in arcade re-releases I see are:

1. It's not going to make the game better anyway - As I've said in some of my responses, I think with playtesting, a fair challenge can be set. And anyway, if you think these games are crap, it shouldn't really offend you :p

2. Limit yourself - How would I know what a fair limit is if I've never beaten the game myself? And most gamers won't do this (which is the more important point here). Someone else earlier mentioned their experience with X-Men was that they stomped it in 20 minutes and were just DONE with the game. I bet that's how most people experienced that game. That's not ideal at all. And again, we want these re-releases to actually get good buzz and sell (like Earthbound did on VC recently). They won't get that by being Free Play and having people stomp them IMO.

Yes Boss! said:
People play games however they feel. If it means self-imposed limits or continuing all the way through. It does not matter.

I would not sweat it. And if it matters then simply don't continue...or continue a few times like you would have back in the day.

If it takes free play to keep these games releasin and current then I'm all for it.
Click to expand...

Well yeah, they don't need to get RID of the Free Play option-- it just shouldn't be the default. And as I mentioned above, I think the situation is the opposite of what you explained. I think Free Play is holding back the positive buzz on these re-releases and thus limiting sales to only the most hardcore. There's no way a reviewer is going to give a re-release with Free Play a good score if they finish it, without challenge, in less than an hour.
 
B

border

Member
Sez said:
All the arcade games were Pay to Win. They only was hard for poor kids.
Click to expand...

Not really. A game that allows you to continue playing right from where you died without resetting enemy health meters is technically pay-to-win.

But plenty of games send you back to the beginning of the stage or reset the boss's health when you die. Money won't get you anywhere in titles like that.
 
S

Sez

Member
border said:
Not really. A game that allows you to continue playing right from where you died without resetting enemy health meters is technically pay-to-win.

But plenty of games send you back to the beginning of the stage or reset the boss's health when you die. Money won't get you anywhere in titles like that.
Click to expand...

Let's create an Arcade game just like you said. You have 2 coins and I have 100. Who will go furthest?

All arcade games were P2W. Nobody did a 1c run without having played the game multiple times.
 
M

MrPresident

Banned
Sez said:
Let's create an Arcade game just like you said. You have 2 coins and I have 100. Who will go furthest?

All arcade games were P2W. Nobody did a 1c run without having played the game multiple times.
Click to expand...

Not at all. Most of the big hits made their way to consoles of the time and had limited continues. You were supposed to get better at them with practice.

At 70$ a cartridge, it was how you got your money's worth.
 
O

Ocaso

Member
XxSlasherMcGirkxX said:
After X-Men and Simpons arcade PSN purchases I am not going to buy another unlimited credit arcade game. I never liked the idea and it really hampered my fun with both titles. I like a little challange in my arcade games. It so pointless in playing when you automatically win, you seriously can't lose. I'm not saying the game has to be insanely difficult or i have to limit myself to a ridiculous self imposed 1 credit rule.

You can keep free play mode but at least create some difficulty. There's no reason why these arcade up ports can't have a difficulty setting or a created limited lives or continue system.
Click to expand...

Um, Simpsons definitely has a limited credit mode. More than one, I believe, but I'm not near my console to check. Pretty sure there are even achievements for completing these modes.

infinityBCRT said:
I mentioned TMNT, Simpsons and X-Men because those were definitely the ones people were looking forward to the most at the start of this gen. I didn't remember that Simpsons had those modes, but if so that's great. Maybe they weren't a primary mode? I remember playing the game with my wife and not really having much fun with it because we kept on just mashing our way through it.
Click to expand...

Boot it up, switch modes, and try again. It really is a better experience when you have to try and be careful. I think it has a 10 quarters mode and a 30 quarters mode in addition to a survival mode. It really was a nicely done port in that regard.
 
S

Syril

Member
Maybe a good way to do it like you're talking about would be like how modern fighting games have set it up where you pick the difficulty every time you start the game instead of going to the options menu. In this case when you go to start the game it asks you to pick the available credits with one of the options being Free Play. This would let it have a "default" credit limit while not limiting anyone's options. The game could encourage playing under limits by having achievements for clearing the game within them.
 
F

Fushichou187

Member
I thought that's what trophies/achievements were for? I mean, if you're looking for challenges beyond the self-imposed "see how far you can get in 3 lives" type run, this seems like a logical alternative if they're enabled in the game you're playing.
 
J-Roderton

J-Roderton

Member
I was just thinking about that. I just bought Capcom Arcade Cabinet on 360. Games like 1943, it lets me play a lot more of the game but not necessarily getting better at it. They have a score mode which I think won't let you do unlimited continues, though.
 
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