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XB1 and 50Hz/PAL broadcasts

M

Monty Mole

Member
So, PAL television broadcasts - including HD broadcasts - are in 50hz. But as we all know, games are 60Hz and the Xbox dash is in 60hz.

As such, what does this mean for the HDMI in on XB1? Is it going to be a judder/stutter fest as it tries to display 50hz at 60hz? That wouldn't bode well at all, but I don't see a way around it, especially with the snapping etc.

Will it display content at its native 50hz when switched to full screen perhaps? Does anyone know or has this been discussed before? I do wonder if this is something else that erroneously passed MS by during the design, just like Game Mode.
 
C

Clopezi

Member
With the "HD generation", the "50/60hz" issue don't exist any more. We play 60Hz games on Xbox 360 and PS3 in Europe.
 
S

SeanNaess

Neo Member
This was only an issue for me when I had tiny SD TV. I'm not sure 50/60Hz is even an issue for HDTVs anymore. Not that I know of! I know that the 360 tests for 50/60Hz but I never see the difference between the two. There's only a noticeable difference on an SDTV.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
If I am not mistaken, modern screens can adapt their refresh rate to 24hz/50hz/60hz depending on the input signal. But I am not entirely sure.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
It's a very interesting question. You should twitter someone at MS.
 
C

coldfoot

Banned
Clopezi said:
With the "HD generation", the "50/60hz" issue don't exist any more. We play 60Hz games on Xbox 360 and PS3 in Europe.
Click to expand...
I believe HDTV broadcasts are still 50Hz in Europe. So while for gaming it wouldn't matter, it would matter if you're using HDMI passthrough and Snap. Xbox output is likely 60Hz.
 
Ray Wonder

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
My tv runs at 60hz. Never has a 50hz broadcast brought a problem to my attention.


Also, I'm not sure if that works the same way as what you're describing.
 
T

TerryWogan

Member
This was resolved this gen. Not an issue next gen, unless you're playing on a CRT somehow, or your HDTV is some sort of weird garbage set.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Clopezi said:
With the "HD generation", the "50/60hz" issue don't exist any more. We play 60Hz games on Xbox 360 and PS3 in Europe.
Click to expand...

You guys are not reading the OP properly.

He is saying that PAL/Euro satellite/cable is normally at 50Hz. What happens when you put the HDMI of that satellite/cable box into the HDMI in of the Xbox One. How will they integrate as there will be a mismatch of frequencies. Cable box at 50Hz and the Xbox One running at 60hz.
 
C

Clopezi

Member
coldfoot said:
I believe HDTV broadcasts are still 50Hz in Europe. So while for gaming it wouldn't matter, it would matter if you're using HDMI passthrough and Snap. Xbox output is likely 60Hz.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's right, some HDTV channels are in 50Hz (1080i, 50Hz), but as you say, doesn't matter for gaming :p
 
C

CLEEK

Member
Monty Mole said:
So, PAL television broadcasts - including HD broadcasts - are in 50hz. But as we all know, games are 60Hz and the Xbox dash is in 60hz.

As such, what does this mean for the HDMI in on XB1? Is it going to be a judder/stutter fest as it tries to display 50hz at 60hz? That wouldn't bode well at all, but I don't see a way around it, especially with the snapping etc.

Will it display content at its native 50hz when switched to full screen perhaps? Does anyone know or has this been discussed before? I do wonder if this is something else that erroneously passed MS by during the design, just like Game Mode.
Click to expand...

Europe has an HDTV standard. I've never seen a HDTV that doesn't comply to it.

All HDTVs have to accept both a 50Hz and 60Hz signal at 720p, 1080i and (in the case of Full HD sets) 1080p.

So the Xbox can just output everything at 60Hz and all EU sold TVs will display it.
 
Zabant

Zabant

Member
This shouldn't affect you unless you have an SDTV, and if you do?

Consider spending that new console money on a new tv, what are you even doing?

Edit: (moot point anyway, new consoles are HDMI out only)
 
C

Clopezi

Member
cyberheater said:
You guys are not reading the OP properly.

He is saying that PAL/Euro satellite/cable is normally at 50Hz. What happens when you put the HDMI of that satellite/cable box into the HDMI in of the Xbox One. How will they integrate as there will be a mismatch of frequencies. Cable box at 50Hz and the Xbox One running at 60hz.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right. Well, it's a good question for Microsoft, but it would be normal an automated conversion, right?
 
O

oconnomiyaki

Member
TerryWogan said:
This was resolved this gen. Not an issue next gen, unless you're playing on a CRT somehow, or your HDTV is some sort of weird garbage set.
Click to expand...

Not completely. It was definitely an issue at the start of the generation. What I'm not sure on, though, is if it only affected 1080i?

Regardless, I see plenty of TVs around currently that are only 50Hz.
 
C

coldfoot

Banned
Clopezi said:
You are absolutely right. Well, it's a good question for Microsoft, but it would be normal an automated conversion, right?
Click to expand...
When you hook up an Euro Satellite receiver which outputs at 720p50 to the Xbone, It will have to convert 50Hz to 60Hz which will result in judder as some frames will be displayed twice. My guess is most people won't even notice.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
SPE said:
So the Xbox can just output everything at 60Hz and all EU sold TVs will display it,
Click to expand...

You missing the point. Does the Xbox One perform some sort of frame rate conversion of the incoming 50hz from the Euro Cable box and converts it internally to 60Hz so that it can use it with the snap features etc...
I really can't see any sort of frame rate conversion going on. This could be a issue for Euroland.
 
E

EvB

Member
cyberheater said:
You guys are not reading the OP properly.

He is saying that PAL/Euro satellite/cable is normally at 50Hz. What happens when you put the HDMI of that satellite/cable box into the HDMI in of the Xbox One. How will they integrate as there will be a mismatch of frequencies. Cable box at 50Hz and the Xbox One running at 60hz.
Click to expand...

Probably just converts it in the same way your TV does, or the same way your 360 or PS3 played a PAL DVD.

All LCD* TVs run at 60hz regardless of what the source is, even in 50hz regions.

All movies are 24fps yet get converted to play back on 60hz NTSC TVs.
 
M

Monty Mole

Member
Clopezi said:
With the "HD generation", the "50/60hz" issue don't exist any more. We play 60Hz games on Xbox 360 and PS3 in Europe.
Click to expand...
Did you not read my OP? I'm not talking about the games, I'm talking about the TV broadcasts you'll be viewing through the Xb1. They are still 50hz, HD or not.
Rourkey said:
Isn't the point that XB1 will have to show 50hz and 60hz at the same time?
Click to expand...
Yes, which is obviously impossible. So something will have to suffer.
SPE said:
Europe has an HDTV standard. I've never seen a HDTV that doesn't comply to it.

All HDTVs have to accept both a 50Hz and 60Hz signal at 720p, 1080i and (in the case of Full HD sets) 1080p.

So the Xbox can just output everything at 60Hz and all EU sold TVs will display it.
Click to expand...
You also didn't read my OP.
 
B

BradleyLove

Member
Reading comprehension fail ahoy.

The dash outputs at 60hz.
EU TV is 50hz.
60hz dash with snapped 50hz content.

This is the scenario being queried. Not full screen 50 or 60.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
cyberheater said:
He is saying that PAL/Euro satellite/cable is normally at 50Hz. What happens when you put the HDMI of that satellite/cable box into the HDMI in of the Xbox One. How will they integrate as there will be a mismatch of frequencies. Cable box at 50Hz and the Xbox One running at 60hz.
Click to expand...

If screens can adjust their refresh rate on the go (as I said, I am not sure about that, but a controller like G-sync can apparently do that with existing screens), the most reasonable solution would be to adapt the framerate of the dashboard to the framerate of the HDMI-In. Since the dashboard is not static footage but rendered dynamically, there would e no judder.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Clopezi said:
You are absolutely right. Well, it's a good question for Microsoft, but it would be normal an automated conversion, right?
Click to expand...

I can't see how it would do it without judder.
 
C

coldfoot

Banned
cyberheater said:
You missing the point. Does the Xbox One perform some sort of frame rate conversion of the incoming 50hz from the Euro Cable box and converts it internally to 60Hz so that it can use it with the snap features etc...
I really can't see any sort of frame rate conversion going on. This could be a issue for Euroland.
Click to expand...
Converting 50Hz to 60Hz is simple, you just display frames 5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50 twice. This will obviously give you judder, but I doubt many would even notice it. Either the Xbox or the satellite receiver will perform this and the result will be 60Hz.
 
E

EvB

Member
Seriously, it's no biggy.

If judder from frame rate conversion concerns you then god knows how you've handled watching VHS , DVD and Blu Ray content for all these years.
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
ElTorro said:
If screens can adjust their refresh rate on the go (as I said, I am not sure about that, but a controller like G-sync can apparently do that with existing screens), the most reasonable solution would be to adapt the framerate of the dashboard to the framerate of the HDMI-In. Since the dashboard is not static footage but rendered dynamically, there would e no judder.
Click to expand...

Yes but it would mean a game that is locked at 60fps would suddenly be locked at 50fps which could mean PAL slowdown for games that have synced animations like some 2D side scrollers.
 
E

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
cyberheater said:
Yes but it would mean a game that is locked at 60fps would suddenly be locked at 50fps which could mean PAL slowdown for games that have synced animations like some 2D side scrollers.
Click to expand...

For a game, the XBO could just switch to 60hz again. It would depend on what the user is currently focusing on. Does anybody know if screens (in mainstream HDTVs) can indeed seamlessly change their refresh rate on the go?
 
E

EvB

Member
TerryWogan said:
I totally didn't read the OP properly. But I'm gonna just assume it isn't going to be a problem.
Click to expand...

It isn't.

Otherwise BBC iplayer which shows 50hz content on a 60gz dashboard wouldn't work.

Neither would netflix

Neither would Sky

Neither would the other countless apps that show broadcast interlaced 50hz content in 60hz
 
cyberheater

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
coldfoot said:
Converting 50Hz to 60Hz is simple, you just display frames 5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50 twice. This will obviously give you judder, but I doubt many would even notice it. Either the Xbox or the satellite receiver will perform this and the result will be 60Hz.
Click to expand...

Yes but the HDMI in chip would have to have hardware support for frame rate conversion. It's not something you can do in software and still have enough power to run a game.
 
M

Monty Mole

Member
EvB said:
Seriously, it's no biggy.

If judder from frame rate conversion concerns you then god knows how you've handled watching VHS , DVD and Blu Ray content for all these years.
Click to expand...
Eh? Movies and filmic USTV content are 23.976fps and sped up to 25fps for PAL VHS/DVD so there is no judder. I have 24hz on my TV for Blu-Ray. So what are you talking about?
ElTorro said:
For a game, the XBO could just switch to 60hz again. It would depend on what the user is currently focusing on. Does anybody know if screens (in mainstream HDTVs) can indeed seamlessly change their refresh rate on the go?
Click to expand...
They do but it's not seamless. You'll normally get a blank screen for a couple of seconds whilst the refresh rate changes. And this is fine for full screen content but it's going to be shitty for snapped in and PIP stuff, although I suppose there's no real way around it.
 
C

Clopezi

Member
Ok, i tried one thing.

I have my 360 on 60Hz in the configuration. I put the "Imagenio app" (Imagenio is the Movistar TV service, who streams at 50Hz) and all works well, so i think the 360 is doing an automated conversion from 50Hz content to the 60Hz output, right?
 
G

gruenel

Member
ElTorro said:
For a game, the XBO could just switch to 60hz again. It would depend on what the user is currently focusing on. Does anybody know if screens (in mainstream HDTVs) can indeed seamlessly change their refresh rate on the go?
Click to expand...

TVs usually go black for a second or two when switching res or refresh rate.
 
G

Graphics Horse

Member
In pal land we run films slightly faster on tv to play at 25fps.
And our lcds support 50/60hz display modes.


O.P. Good question... I guess it's possible the Xbone could switch display frequencies but that would mean all snapping apps would have to support 50hz mode too... I'm guessing it's just going to duplicate every 5th frame or something.
 
E

EvB

Member
Monty Mole said:
Eh? Movies and filmic USTV content are 23.976fps and sped up to 25fps for PAL VHS/DVD so there is no judder. I have 24hz on my TV for Blu-Ray. So what are you talking about?
Click to expand...

23.976fps which is converted to 60hz for NTSC.

Many 24fps modes on TVs do not change the refresh rate of the screen too.
 
M

Mandoric

Banned
cyberheater said:
Yes but the HDMI in chip would have to have hardware support for frame rate conversion. It's not something you can do in software and still have enough power to run a game.
Click to expand...

It shouldn't be too power-intensive; after all, the lazy way is to just NOT update every sixth frame. Even complex deinterlacing/decimation software that handles mixed 24/30hz content should just about squeeze into a single CPU core on the Xbone's APU.

I'd be more worried about well-meaning attempts to handle it the "right" way leading to the system itself shifting to 50hz mode, like both Sony and Nintendo have offered 50hz emulated content.
 
N

netBuff

Member
EvB said:
23.976fps which is converted to 60hz for NTSC.

Many 24fps modes on TVs do not change the refresh rate of the screen too.
Click to expand...

That's why judder is often very noticeable with NTSC DVDs, while PAL versions don't suffer this problem. And this is what the op is fearing: Judder due to the Xbone operating at 60 Hz, but TV broadcasts operating at 50 Hz.
 
G

Graphics Horse

Member
Come to think of it i've no idea what mode the tv goes in for iplayer apps etc, probably 60hz. It's probably not something you'd want to do if the effect bothers you a lot. I think you'll still be able to control channels by voice even without passthrough, you'd just not get the tv overlay thing.
 
N

netBuff

Member
Graphics Horse said:
Come to think of it i've no idea what mode the tv goes in for iplayer apps etc, probably 60hz. It's probably not something you'd want to do if the effect bothers you a lot. I think you'll still be able to control channels by voice even without the passthrough, you'd just not get the tv overlay thing.
Click to expand...

At this point we don't even know what receiver boxes and providers are even supported, and how they are managing receivers that allow for free allocation of channel numbers (most devices): I think worrying about voice commands seems premature.
 
M

Monty Mole

Member
EvB said:
23.976fps which is converted to 60hz for NTSC.

Many 24fps modes on TVs do not change the refresh rate of the screen too.
Click to expand...
With regards to your first point, that's converted using the pulldown method, and there is a shit load of judder.

It's what 24hz was invented for, and you'll struggle to find any TV on the market today which doesn't support 24hz output.
 
N

netBuff

Member
Monty Mole said:
With regards to your first point, that's converted using the pulldown method, and there is a shit load of judder.

It's what 24hz was invented for, and you'll struggle to find any TV on the market today which doesn't support 24hz output.
Click to expand...

There's no judder with 50 Hz, but obviously routing it through an Xbone running at 60 Hz would create judder.
 
S

Sakujou

Banned
hi, iam from europe, living in korea right now, temporary for studies.

i took my ps3 with me and i couldnt play the ps1 games, which i downloaded. they are displayed in 50hz.

they work in europe on the hdtvs there, but at least not on ntsc tvs.

i asked back then, when i moved, if my psn-download was broken, but it turned out, that ntsc-tvs, even HD-TV, could not display a PAL signal.

i hope this answers your question.

if your tv is able to do so, it will.

and i think, if a game or a show has adapted 50hz pal signal, it looks as good as the ntsc signal. most devs did a poor job, thats why pal games look so bad with the black lines or slower refresh rate.
 
A

AzaK

Member
Satchel said:
Um, this problem doesn't really exist anymore dude. At least not on most TVs post 2005 or so.
Click to expand...

It does, you're just not reading the OP properly. The number of people doing this in this thread is insane.


Signal comes in from your Freeview/Cable/whatever at 50Hz.
It goes out the HDMI of that box at 50Hz.
It goes into the XBO at 50Hz
The XBO is showing a game at 60Hz

The question was....what happens when you snap? When you go fullscreen TV?

I imagine the answer is pulldown for the former, frequency switch for the latter.
 
I

ibrahima

Banned
Snapping in 50hz TV whilst playing 60hz games or vice versa will probably be an odd experience. Considering this will be the first console generation that doesn't get packed in with RCA cables I think the majority of the buying population won't notice the judder, but yes, it is a very interesting (and hitherto not discussed) point.

I wonder if it even occurred to MS. I know HDMI input will support just about anything, but to my understanding only (some? one? I dunno how many) US Cable suppliers are signed up for Xbox One TV Support. I suppose we'll see in a few days now.
 
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