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io9: Paul Dini on cartoon executives, "'We do not want girls watching this show"

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http://io9.com/paul-dini-superhero-cartoon-execs-dont-want-largely-f-1483758317

In an interview with Kevin Smith, writer and television producer Paul Dini complained about a worrying trend he sees in television animation and superhero shows in particular: executives spurning female viewers because they believe girls and women don't buy the shows' toys
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DINI: "They're all for boys 'we do not want the girls', I mean, I've heard executives say this, you know, not [where I am] but at other places, saying like, 'We do not want girls watching this show."

SMITH: "WHY? That's 51% of the population."

DINI: "They. Do. Not. Buy. Toys. The girls buy different toys. The girls may watch the show—"

SMITH: "So you can sell them T-shirts if they don't—A: I disagree, I think girls buy toys as well, I mean not as many as f***ing boys do, but, B: sell them something else, man! Don't be lazy and be like, 'well I can't sell a girl a toy.' Sell 'em a T-shirt, man, sell them f***ing umbrella with the f***ing character on it, something like that. But if it's not a toy, there's something else you could sell 'em! Like, just because you can't figure out your job, don't kill chances of, like, something that's gonna reach an audi—that's just so self-defeating, when people go, like… these are the same fuckers who go, like, 'Oh, girls don't read comics, girls aren't into comics.' It's all self-fulfilling prophecies. They just make it that way, by going like, 'I can't sell 'em a toy, what's the point?'

DINI: "That's the thing, you know I hate being Mr. Sour Grapes here, but I'll just lay it on the line: that's the thing that got us cancelled on Tower Prep, honest-to-God was, like, 'we need boys, but we need girls right there, right one step behind the boys'—this is the network talking—'one step behind the boys, not as smart as the boys, not as interesting as the boys, but right there.' And then we began writing stories that got into the two girls' back stories, and they were really interesting. And suddenly we had families and girls watching, and girls really became a big part of our audience, in sort of like they picked up that Harry Potter type of serialized way, which is what The Batman and [indistinct]'s really gonna kill. But, the Cartoon Network was saying, 'F***, no, we want the boys' action, it's boys' action, this goofy boy humor we've gotta get that in there. And we can't—' and I'd say, but look at the numbers, we've got parents watching, with the families, and then when you break it down—'Yeah, but the—so many—we've got too many girls. We need more boys.'"

SMITH: "That's heart-breaking."

DINI: "And then that's why they cancelled us, and they put on a show called Level Up, which is, you know, goofy nerds fighting CG monsters. It's like, 'We don't want the girls because the girls won't buy toys.' We had a whole… we had a whole, a merchandise line for Tower Prep that they s***canned before it ever got off the launching pad, because it's like, 'Boys, boys, boys. Boys buy the little spinny tops, they but the action figures, girls buy princesses, we're not selling princesses.'"
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Patriarchal capitalism. We all buy into it, nothing shocking here. If we really wanted this to change, we'd do so with our money. The majority of parents in the U.S. are unfortunately happy with categorizing their boys as blue and girls as pink.

Stores like Toys R Us are taking a step forward, however small, by lumping their toy sections together, but the status quo will remain the same as long as the market perpetuates it.
 
Well, It's a business and merchandising is one of the largest revenues. It's true that boys buy more TV/Cartoon toys that girls. Action Man is a thing of the past now but Girls have things like MLP and Bratz and stuff still. Boys Toys are Transformers, Ben 10, Star Wars, Doctor Who stuff like that TV Shows mainly.
 
The only people I know still talking about superhero movies after the first week of them being out are girls who ogle the superheroes.
 
He talks about Tower Prep being a show cancelled for Level Up. I've heard of the latter but not the former.

And yeah, totally agreed with him, action animation is in a terrible state right now and it's not JUST because of Loeb and Man of Action either.
 
ZealousD said:
Boys bought ponies.

Your argument is invalid.
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LukeAllen1.jpg
 
The producers of sentai in japan openly say this, and soem of them hate putting two girls on a team. Or using certain girly colors.
 
I think it might be more of a problem with parents not wanting to buy their little girls action figures and "boy" toys.
 
Sucks 'cause I absolutely adore animated superhero shows and will definitely go out of my way to but their merchandise. You know, if they don't alienate me first.
 
Not a shock at all. I mean some girls might buy the toys but its generally not the audience they're after. And all these shows just exist to sell toys, and that's about it. It sucks it's like that now but marketing and the almighty dollar is king. Get the kids, the adults shall spend to keep them happy.
 
tiggerkiddo said:
Not a shock at all. I mean some girls might buy the toys but its generally not the audience they're after. And all these shows just exist to sell toys, and that's about it. It sucks it's like that now but marketing and the almighty dollar is king. Get the kids, the adults shall spend to keep them happy.
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It's not a strategy that's really working for them even with shows that don't cater to female audiences: See Sym-Bionic Titan. Tying a show to toy sales does not seem to be a very good plan for anyone. :/ And the ones that do sell merchandise like gangbusters such as Adventure Time have a huge female audience.
 
MartyStu said:
Seems to me that it would be a better idea to condition girls to like the same toys that boys do.
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I agree, girl toys are so fucking stupid. Its either a doll or kitchen toys. Girls should get Legos, video games, action figures, model kits, sports and other things as they grow up.
 
Netflix, please save Western cartoons.

I don't know which is more pathetic, the state of television animation in the United States or Japan. Both sides have their good qualities and productions, but their respective economic systems are just so fucked.
 
Vesmir said:
Patriarchal capitalism. We all buy into it, nothing shocking here. If we really wanted this to change, we'd do so with our money. The majority of parents in the U.S. are unfortunately happy with categorizing their boys as blue and girls as pink.
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In the example in this interview, the show got canceled before it could even launch its toy line because it was picking up an audience that skewed too heavily female.

There's no way for consumers to break that self-fulfilling prophecy, because show producers will only allow one kind of show to reach the market.
 
sonicmj1 said:
In the example in this interview, the show got canceled before it could even launch its toy line because it was picking up an audience that skewed too heavily female.

There's no way for consumers to break that self-fulfilling prophecy, because show producers will only allow one kind of show to reach the market.
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Yep.
 
Purely business logic: If your show is skewed heavily female on a primarily male network then the "problem" is the show.
 
sonicmj1 said:
In the example in this interview, the show got canceled before it could even launch its toy line because it was picking up an audience that skewed too heavily female.

There's no way for consumers to break that self-fulfilling prophecy, because show producers will only allow one kind of show to reach the market.
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Yup. I'm not at all a fan of "vote with your wallet" as a way to shut down more vocal criticism.
 
Slayven said:
The producers of sentai in japan openly say this, and soem of them hate putting two girls on a team. Or using certain girly colors.
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Which is pretty fucked since Toei has to have noticed their female audience by now. Every week at the end of Kyoryuger they have video evidence that little girls are watching the show too.
 
ReiGun said:
Which is pretty fucked since Toei has to have noticed their female audience by now. Every week at the end of Kyoryuger they have video evidence that little girls are watching the show too.
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Or Rider shows that have all them soccer moms
 
The success of teen titans was the impetus of a lot of what became DC Nation, and the show had a large female audience from the start. DC Nation as a whole was constantly aiming a lot of their programming and content towards girls, and it's not like action shows that didn't have female audiences survived. Green Lantern was canceled at the same time, and it skewed far more towards boys than girls.

I don't think it's as simple as Paul is claiming.
 
As a girl who loved "boy toys" growing up, this saddens me. You think someone would try a leap of faith to capture both markets, just to see if it would pay off. (100% > 49%)
 
I think the core problem is that the companies underestimate children and their minds. Children are able to comprehend difficult themes. They only lack knowledge and life experience, so some stuff has to be explained or symbolized. But instead of symplifying they dumb down most things to "boy want boom" and "girls want princesses and gossip".
Also somehow they think girls are dumber than boys, since boy shows seem to be a bit more complex than girls shows (although often still dumb).
 
"We want to appeal towards people in the most cost-effective way possible"

What's important to note here is that Dini praised the diversity of the audience before but ignored to mention the popularity overall. It could have very well went up if it was generally more masculine.
 
ReiGun said:
Which is pretty fucked since Toei has to have noticed their female audience by now. Every week at the end of Kyoryuger they have video evidence that little girls are watching the show too.
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Heh, the irony. Now, Kamen Riders and Super Sentai are all pretty boys. Back then, the actors were all men among men.
 
People are stupid and it happens both ways. My son plays with whatever he wants and people talk shit on me all the time. so what if he wants a Dora cooking thing while he's dressed as Batman or Dr Who.
He was almost Merida for Halloween but some asshole saleslady gave him shit at the store.
 
SpiderJerusalem said:
People are stupid and it happens both ways. My son plays with whatever he wants and people talk shit on me all the time. so what if he wants a Dora cooking thing while he's dressed as Batman or Dr Who.
He was almost Merida for Halloween but some asshole saleslady gave him shit at the store.
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And this was you to the sales lady after that conversation:
jZQjVtP.jpg
 
SpiderJerusalem said:
People are stupid and it happens both ways. My son plays with whatever he wants and people talk shit on me all the time. so what if he wants a Dora cooking thing while he's dressed as Batman or Dr Who.
He was almost Merida for Halloween but some asshole saleslady gave him shit at the store.
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You think parents would want to encourage cooking for their kid, boy or girl.
 
What kids buy toys these days anyway?

My 8 year old niece doesnt play with toys, she only only wants phone apps. My nephew stopped playing with toys a long time too.

Selling cartoons as half hour commercials for toys was legitimate business 30 years ago but today I dont think so.
 
SpiderJerusalem said:
People are stupid and it happens both ways. My son plays with whatever he wants and people talk shit on me all the time. so what if he wants a Dora cooking thing while he's dressed as Batman or Dr Who.
He was almost Merida for Halloween but some asshole saleslady gave him shit at the store.
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Ugh, people are so fucking small minded.
 
I used to look in vain for toys (any toys, not just for girls!) for Avatar for my daughter. Nickelodeon is so inept at licensing (save for Spongebob, which is on everything). Three of the major characters of Avatar were girls, but there were simply no toys, no Halloween costumes, no figures, no collectibles. And it hasn't changed even with a show with a heroine protagonist.
 
adamsappel said:
I used to look in vain for toys (any toys, not just for girls!) for Avatar for my daughter. Nickelodeon is so inept at licensing (save for Spongebob, which is on everything). Three of the major characters of Avatar were girls, but there were simply no toys, no Halloween costumes, no figures, no collectibles. And it hasn't changed even with a show with a heroine protagonist.
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I would buy Katara, Toph, and Azula action figures in a fucking heartbeat.
 
SpiderJerusalem said:
People are stupid and it happens both ways. My son plays with whatever he wants and people talk shit on me all the time. so what if he wants a Dora cooking thing while he's dressed as Batman or Dr Who.
He was almost Merida for Halloween but some asshole saleslady gave him shit at the store.
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Sounds like people need to mind their own fucking business.

Kinda irritating how much of a stranglehold toy sales have on cartoons. I still watch cartoons, but I don't buy toys, and toy sales decide whether my shit gets canceled . . .
 
The tippity top executives at Cartoon Network have been boneheaded for years now. They don't know when they have a good thing and don't know how to market it. Things keep flying under the radar over there and making it without their help, but I'll be damned if they don't constantly try to fuck it up when they got a good thing going.
 
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