Before you start reading the breakdown, I want to point out that the purpose of this thread is to clear up any confusion about the Halo: CE Pistol and its role in the sandbox. At the end of this breakdown, you'll see a few quotes I've made in other threads. I'm making this thread with the hopes that we can have some discussion and hopefully clear up the false perception put into people's minds by Bungie ever since Halo 2. I'll talk a little bit more about that specifically after this breakdown.

Please read it all before you post. There is no TLR because I feel this false perception of CE's sandbox is still going on after so many years.

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CE: OGRE 2 & Patch - Prisoner TS

It's beautiful. So much meta game, so much depth for player growth, yet with so much accessibility. The shots are being aligned within the reticle and they're adjusting based on their strafe/movement to lead shots; they're lining up their reticle by predicting for leads, not spamming (just in case anyone thinks that). It's precision shooting at its finest, FUN and consistency.

:04 - Players spawn in a classic CE face-off. Patch takes 7 shots to kill the first guy while OGRE 2 covers him.
:09 - Patch gets into a shootout with enemy 2 and loses. OGRE 2 gets better positioning and spawn kills the first guy. Predicting the movement of enemy 2, OGRE 2 throws a grenade by the Camo to get the Double Kill.
:20 - Patch goes for OS and covers himself with a grenade.

Take note of these battles because there has yet to be a single 3sk, from any of these high level players. Also, there's no motion tracker but the awareness is high. It all comes down to knowing the maps and understanding the flow of combat; something gained naturally through experience.

The match continues as you can clearly see the coordination between both teams. OGRE 2 and Patch have the upper hand by maintaining top control (map control was essential in CE as was the power of an individual player).

:37 - OGRE 2 uses grenades to lure them out. Grenades played a pivotal role moreso in CE due to the lack of total weapons. Golden triangle of Halo anyone? Sure they were nukes, but they had a long fuse time (could be better balanced by not allowing 4 of each type).
:41 - Enemy team shoots another Rocket but misses. That's just part of the game; OGRE 2/Patch has better map control and the enemy is fighting hard to gain control. It was harder to do this in Halo 2 onward because of the BR, the power to gain control diminished for the individual player as the demand to teamshoot skyrocketed instead of it being a benefit. Power plays were severely gimped after CE.
:43 - Notice Patch's movement. He's confident in his jumps/positioning because they know where the enemy is. He predicted their movement based on the situation, and even led them to where he wanted (teamwork with OGRE 2 helped this).
:52 - Patch continues jumping around on the catwalks, shooting at the enemy below him. Still no 3sk in this game. The other team is fighting hard and it's still a close match despite maintaining top control.

Take note that teamwork, along with the power of the CE Pistol combined with the powerful weapons in general allowed for crazy come backs unlike later Halo games. Why? Because of map control and the power of an individual player in combination with teamwork. Halo 2 killed this with the BR (longer kill times, the requirement to teamshoot and inconsistencies) and generally watered down sandbox (comparatively).

:57 - Look at this 1v1. Stare at it. It's beautiful. 3sk? Nahhh.. Spamming? Nahhh.. Pay attention to where Patch leaves his reticle as he's moving to the right, just before he dies. That's a skill-based weapon that was extremely satisfying to use. Look how many shots it took the other guy to get ONE HEADSHOT on Patch. One.
1:00 - It's only been a damn MINUTE?! OGRE 2 hangs around OS because he knows it's about to spawn; powerup timing. This could be better conveyed through later Halo 5 by having a tutorial section within the game explaining all these details.
1:06 - OGRE 2 grabs the OS and makes a power push, and it pays off. Map control, powerup control, teamwork, no superfluous nonsense, Halo.

Also take note that OGRE 2 or Patch never had control of the Rocket, that overpowered monster, but they were doing so well because of teamwork and map control. It's important to keep pointing this out.

Jumping ahead:
1:45-1:55 - Patch & OGRE 2 grab the Snipers. Seconds later, you can see how difficult it was to use. High level players, not landing headshots with the Sniper or 3sk's with the Pistol. Skill-based weapons that were extremely FUN to use. No one complained about these things throughout those 3 years of CE. Bungie put that shit in people's minds and now some run with it.. It's incredibly disappointing.
2:03 - OGRE 2 goes for OS.
2:10 - OGRE 2 throws a grenade by the ramp just in case someone might be there. Map awareness, no motion tracker, smarter gameplay decisions, more FUN for everyone, higher quality matches.
2:13 - OGRE 2 gets the Rocket and misses. Patch is trying to cover him and clean up that kill, but the enemy has some great movement, jumping around and strafing, keeping himself alive.
2:17 - The enemy's teammate sees the action and predicts OGRE 2's movement, so he throws a grenade and kills him, causing OGRE 2 to drop the Rocket.

No motion tracker.

2:51 - Before this, there was a slight slow-down period as both teams were trying to gain control. The enemy team had the Rockets, Patch & OGRE 2 know this. Patch predicts that the enemy will come up that ramp, but misses his Sniper shot. That alerts the enemy's teammate (the guy carrying the Rocket) of Patch's position as he fires one off in his location, killing Patch.
2:55 - OGRE 2 pushes to clean up that guy at OS to maintain map control.
2:58 - The Camo/Rocket guy pops out and kills OGRE 2, covering his teammate and knowing that it's important that they try to gain map control over OGRE 2 & Patch.

Teamwork. No motion tracker. Map awareness. Still no 3sk or Sniper headshots.

3:01 - Patch gets a good spawn and retaliates up top by throwing a grenade at the spawning OS, killing the Rocket guy. Powerup timing and experience.
3:06 - OGRE 2 spawns and goes straight for Camo. Make note of the AR/Camo trick I mentioned the other day, how you could activate it faster by shooting an AR bullet. Had there been a Rocket, OGRE 2 would've dropped the Pistol and kept the AR/Rocket because of this useful trick. Remember what I said about increasing a weapon's role in the sandbox by giving it unique traits? Balance.
3:18 - OGRE 2 attempts a shortcut by jumping up that little lip, but fails. Jumps were crucial to CE/earlier Halo games. AA's in Reach/4 killed the importance of this with Jet Pack and sprint.
3:41 - The enemy spawns right in front of OGRE 2's path. He double melee's him, but almost kills himself in the process. Risk/reward unlike Halo 2's double melee which didn't require a grenade. A far less broken button combo.

Speaking of button combos, take note of how these players are reloading their weapon then switching at some points. That's backpack reloading; XXY.

3:47 - Look how fast the AR wrecks Patch's shit. Patch just had a good path to escape and didn't bother engaging because he would've been fighting a losing battle, despite him having the Pistol. A second later the AR guy cleans him up anyway.

Map control and knowing your weapon's strengths.

3:51 - OGRE 2 makes a successful jump to get up top and shoots the enemy first. Camo being put to work, no motion tracker, movement was not deliberately gimped in this game. Devs forcing OP motion tracker down our throats in MM really hurt the quality of matches, despite what those in favor of motion tracker say. Sound-based radar is a better compromise if default MM has to have it.

Watch this Pistol fight. OGRE 2 shoots the enemy first, but the guy was able to turn around and out-Pistol OGRE 2, causing him to back off. That's what I want out of Halo 5's shootouts. That enemy would've been dead in any game after CE. The CE Pistol provided players with a chance.

4:20 - Patch sees OGRE 2 in a fight and shoots a Rocket in the area where he thinks the enemy is, scoring the kill. No motion tracker, just map awareness and teamwork.
4:59 - The first 3sk from OGRE 2 & Patch's perspective. OGRE 2 hangs out there as Patch gets the Sniper, waiting to see where exactly the enemy spawns.
5:34 - You're about to see beautiful Pistol skills. Look at how OGRE 2 makes subtle movements to the reticle to aim for the headshot, then once again at the guy by OS. Leading shots. Beautiful.
5:47 - OGRE 2 engages the enemy while having Camo, but doesn't land a 3sk. The enemy retaliates and out-Pistols OGRE 2. Once again, beautiful. Any game after CE that enemy would've more than likely been dead.
5:50 - Patch grabs the Sniper and tries to get a headshot, but doesn't get a headshot. The enemy quickly retaliates and kills Patch. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is the reality of Halo CE. Not this BS many of people think it is..
6:05 - Patch.... DROPS THE PISTOL! Why? Because he picked up Camo and Rocket, so he kept the AR to activate it faster. What was that about the Pistol being the only weapon used? What was I saying about increasing the viability of weapons by giving them unique traits? I'm not speaking out of my ass guys.. It also activates faster by switching to the AR, not just shooting a bullet.

The match continues and the final score is 50-20. Sure they won by 30 kills, but you can see how close the game was in terms of shootouts/battles. It's just that throughout the match, OGRE 2 & Patch had superior map control, they dominated the Powerups and had more effective movement. Matches in this game were won and lost quickly, not to mention OGRE 2 was one of the best ever and he couldn't land consistent 3sk's (if any) during a ~7 minute match.

CE could've been improved with tighter movement and many of the unquestionable improvements we have in Halo today (Red X's, Halo 2 introducing a better system for power weapon/Powerup timing (IMO) because look how many kills in this match weren't from the Pistol, but instead from Rockets and Powerups/Pistol, better visual feedback like in Reach, etc. etc.).

CE was the best accident to happen to first person shooters on console. I'll drop everything professional/career-wise in my life right now if it meant I could make a difference for this franchise. I'm not trying to cause any harm, I'm trying to open some minds. I fully realize I'm in the extreme minority of people who understand CE on a fundamental level, so it's extremely disappointing to still see people in high positions like Frankie making jokes about the CE Pistol.
Again, this was one one. single. match.

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Interested in thoughts from people who don't frequent HaloGAF. I'd like to return to AR/Pistol starts with having weapons on the map that are worthwhile to pick up. Please read everything before you form an opinion because I don't want people thinking I want the CE Pistol in current Halo sandboxes because that would be broken, nor do I want a remake of CE using the same exact engine.

In a sandbox of AR/Pistol starts, the below would be on-map pickups:

Rifles: Map Pickups

• BR -- hitscan, 4sk, 3x RRR but with 2x zoom, feels like LAN H2 BR, tight spread
• Light Rifle -- 3x scope, no hitscan, burst mode = 3sk, zoom = 4sk but shoots faster
• DMR -- Take away the bloom, reduce aim assist (Think Gears Markza) -OR- possibly making it 85% bloom, 3sk, 3x zoom and hitscan
• H3 Beta Carbine -- 3x RRR but with 2x zoom, slow-down effect similar to CE PR/PP

Automatics:

• Plasma Rifle returns with plasma stun
• ODST SMG -- scope, better accuracy when shot in bursts

Misc:

• Scattershot changed to function like Unreal's Flak Cannon
• Reach Beta Plasma Launcher for anti vehicle
• Missile Pod that has 3 shots and you can manually control each shot like Unreal's Redeemer
• Grenade Launcher returns -- Hold RT for Grenade Launcher traits, Press RT for remote activation like Sticky Detonator (press again to detonate)

Vehicles:

• H3 Warthog, Mongoose, CE Tank, Falcon that isn't paper mache
• H2 Banshee, H2 Wraith w/ turret, H4 Ghost
• Chopper
• Two new Forerunner vehicles that look like this:
  

  

  

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• And this badass to replace the Mantis, controlled in first person:
  

  

  

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Also, I should note the changes to AR/Pistol starts and the bad rap the CE Pistol gets:

FUNKNOWN iXi said:

To describe it shortly, the Pistol was never really broken. CE's sandbox was very limited because it was the only weapon that was used midrange aside from the Sniper, so the fact that people call it broken is unfair in that respect.

Now compare it to the other weapons in their respective roles:

• PR/PP vs Pistol -> PR/PP had stun and would dominate the Pistol close range. If the Pistol won, then good job.. Doesn't mean the weapon is broken because there could be many factors that played into that (player skill, out of ammo, low health, etc.)
• AR vs Pistol -> AR had 60 shots and had an incredibly quick melee, and what made it more useful was that you could use it to activate Camo quicker by shooting a bullet.
• Shotgun vs Pistol -> Shotgun was an absolute monster. Nothing else to say about it.
• Sniper vs Pistol -> This is obvious.
• Rocket vs Pistol -> This is obvious.
• Needler was useless.

By giving weapons certain traits you increase their uniqueness and viability in the weapon sandbox, but when every weapon pretty much functions the same then sure, the CE Pistol in Halo 4's sandbox would be broken. I still can't understand how people could spout the same bullshit Bungie's been saying for years when it never really made sense in the first place.

Let me ask you, what's the most important factor in a video game?
Let me answer: FUN.

So why are people shitting on a weapon that SOOOO many people found incredibly fun and rewarding to use? Also, I should throw out there that not even professional Halo CE players can land consistent 3sk's on LAN, so obviously the weapon takes some skill to use.

Aside from weapons, another way to balance a returning CE Pistol would be to make a more responsive strafe, increase the movement speed and not have babby level aim assist like in Halo 2. Halo 5 can easily return to AR/Pistol starts granted the rest of the sandbox is balanced properly.

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Now onto how to further balance the Pistol and why I think it could be a great idea to return to AR/Pistol starts:

FUNKNOWN iXi said:

1. It's a weapon that directly taps into nostalgia, something that Halo needs right now.
2. So many people love it and it's clearly not forgotten because it frequently appears on those lists of favorite weapons over the years.
3. It. Can. Be. Further. Balanced. (faster movement, more responsive strafe, a sandbox that isn't watered down/inconsistent, possible default Thrusters, etc.)
4. 8 shot clip is a crime, make it 12 shots again. And don't dare remove the scope.
5. One of the most skill-demanding, yet FUN weapons in any Halo game. Fans showing love for it over a decade after its release is proof of that.
6. It's the perfect spawn weapon we've been wanting, granted the weapons on the map are worth picking up (like a BR with a Red Reticle Range (RRR) of a 3x weapon, but with a 2x zoom (ie: Light Rifle)).
7. Doesn't take up a big portion of the screen (personal "complaint" about rifles).

I know many people don't respond to these posts, and I think it's because how several people said they don't have the time spent with CE, but I hope that I'm at least making sense here to those who haven't.

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343 pls, bring back the colors. Anniversary's art style was quite appealing:

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I'm sure I missed many things because I can talk about this for days (or years which by now anyone who knows me for this long must think I sound like a broken record lol).

I fucking love this franchise. Thank you all.

Wow.

I have nothing to add here, just wanted to say this is amazing though

Halo 1 multi is the best thing ever. I used to play competitively at AGP and MLG (We got top 12 at a few national tournaments and won a lot of the regional ones) and frequently practiced with HP-Darkman and HP-Alex. The strategy that timing and map control brought to the game made it perfect for moving the action along and removing camping.

Did we time travel to 2004?

This is beautiful.

lmpaler said:

Did we time travel to 2004?

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I just think it has taken him that long to construct his post.

I'm not going to discuss the CE pistol because I don't have enough experience with Halo CE, even though I've completed the campaign 5+ times.

I will say that I completely agree regarding colour though. Those anniversary shots looks really nice. I really hope Halo 5 has a more diverse colour palette.

gah, prisoner. yuck.

Z_Y said:

I just think it has taken him that long to construct his post.

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"It took me almost ten years, but here it is."

Heck of a post! CE was such an amazing game. I actually picked up a copy for my Xbox this past month because it was dirt cheap and because I thought it criminal that I had an Xbox but no HALO CE.

CE was the best accident to happen to first person shooters on console. I'll drop everything professional/career-wise in my life right now if it meant I could make a difference for this franchise. I'm not trying to do you guys harm, I'm trying to open some minds. I fully realize I'm in the extreme minority of people who understand CE on a fundamental level, so it's extremely disappointing to still see people in high positions like Frankie making jokes about the CE Pistol. I will never quit you, despite all the hate you seem to have for something I hold so dear. Save the Pistol through the DMR if you must.

Again, this was one one. single. match.

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I will put my career on hold for you, pistol

There is such a magic/depth to the simplicity of what games like Combat Evolved used to be.

Such a shame the franchise is what it is now.

Good old equal footing, map positioning, and knowledge that contributes to a constant game of predicting and controlling your enemies.

I'd buy Halo Anniversary on PC. The original is still my favourite Halo game by far, none of the sequels came close.

I'm pretty sure that Bungie was concerned about making a fun game for everyone. Just because you can argue that the pistol is (or could be) balanced at the highest level of tournament play doesn't mean that its inclusion wouldn't mess up the game for people at lower levels of play and experience.

That said, I think it's a shame they couldn't at least have some kind of functional version of Halo CE that works online.

Halo CE was best CE. most people dont get that. but i do. Pistol was the great equalizer. It was powerful, but everyone had it.

I spent almost every weekend in high school going to Halo LANs at various friends' houses. Most fun I've ever had with video games, hands down.

Abruptly stopped when Halo 2 came out. And it wasn't because it had online multiplayer.

Great OP. Very interesting to follow through. I definitely think there is room for character building MP (the COD4 method) and purely even, skill based MP.

I don't know what "3sk's" means.

Great post though, that pistol was very fun to use.

Raptor said:

I don't know what "3sk's" means.

Great post though, that pistol was very fun to use.

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3 shot kills

I feel like Halo 1's pistol was the BR in Halo 2. They both required the most skill and control. However every Halo after that had nothing

CE Pistol is boring. It looks boring, it has a boring firing cadence, it even sounds boring.

All glory to the Battle Rifle

Haunted said:

I'd buy Halo Anniversary on PC. The original is still my favourite Halo game by far, none of the sequels came close.

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Same here. I know CMT is doing some great things with that new graphics engine for Custom Edition and their revamped SP maps, but some of their changes are bit too much for my tastes (like Brutes in the enemy lineup).

As someone who made several posts (compilation here) on what Halo4 could be and ended up profoundly disappointed in the direction 343 appears to be taking the series, I have to say this is a great thread and a great post, but will likely fall on deaf ears (even with 343 developers like Frankie being active GAF members).

Comments like CE Pistol's "cheapness" being a result of CE's limited sandbox, "giving weapons certain traits you increase their uniqueness and viability" and bringing the ODST SMG to the sandbox are all places where our opinions overlap, and I'm curious where else we seem to be on the same ground.

What are your thought's on H4's speed and survivability? I felt like it was made too quick in terms of movement speed and lifespan, delivering spastic "whoever shoots first wins" COD-style matches with instant respawn, poor map design and random weapon drops just pouring layers of chaos over the whole crummy cake. Halo's appeal (at least to me) was that it felt meaty, that you could get plinked a few times and still have the capacity to fight back and win. You felt like you had some armor and survivability, when I played Halo 4 it felt like you just ran around trying to get the drop on people first.

The pistol wasn't boring and the BR wasn't "exciting".
That pistol was clutch.

Great post! I wish someone at 343 would take this kind of feedback seriously. Halo isn't really competitive in the multiplayer space right now, and it's because it's simply not as satisfying to play, and for me, it's because they've gone so far away from what made Halo multiplayer great in the first place. From the large scale CTF battles on maps like Blood Gulch (when rockets didn't have lock-on), down to the 1 on 1 shootouts. Halo needs to return to being a game of tactics and skill, and I think people will come back in droves. I know I will.

I always felt like it was the Pistol at the center, being the dedicated all-purpose weapon, that let the other weapons be unique & focused standouts. The sequels lost that pillar, and the quality of all of the weapons suffered as a result.

Nothing brings out the "it's cheap" complaints like weapons that can dominate when used skillfully. Give me the CE pistol over shit like the plasma pistol+battlerifle combo in Halo 2.

Jesus penis. I'll read and dissect this properly when I have the chance. Excited to dive in. Will promote over HaloGAF Twitter for ya.

Great read OP. Halo CE was the only halo I actually loved. Hated the sub machine guns and dual wielding in 2 and hated pretty much everything about 3.

Them not adding MP in the Halo Anniversary was soul crushing. I know why they did it but it was just incredible disappointing.

Awesome thread. Take note 343i, please.

I miss the CE pistol. I make do with the BR, but it's just not the same..

Love it. Nailing jumps in Halo 2 was one of my favorite things about it.

sixghost said:

Nothing brings out the "it's cheap" complaints like weapons that can dominate when used skillfully. Give me the CE pistol over shit like the plasma pistol+battlerifle combo in Halo 2.

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The Halo:CE pistol would dominate the plasma pistol + BR combo if they were in the same game -- similarly to how pistol alone dominated plasma pistol + pistol in CE. It has a much lower TTK in almost every scenario.

It's one of the most broken weapons in the history of multiplayer FPS gaming. A match between halfway decent players always devolved into pistol vs. pistol with really rare exceptions where you could use winning the pistol fight to access the power weapons and then completely dominate the match. It was one of those things that would have been fixed in patch 1.01 if only early Xbox games could be patched.

Seiru said:

I spent almost every weekend in high school going to Halo LANs at various friends' houses. Most fun I've ever had with video games, hands down.

Abruptly stopped when Halo 2 came out. And it wasn't because it had online multiplayer.

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are you my friend? because i did the same thing.

Reach > CE

Subbed. Will read later.

Halo CE had better balance but Halo 2 had better stages even though damnation and chill out(cold storage) are timeless stages.

I still will say that if this game could be played with a wiimote+, the game would handle differently. If you played the pc version then you know how the slight changes with mouse controls give you a more accurate aim. In the xbox version, you usually have to sidestep side to side or in a circle just to get a hit off with help from autoaim with the pistol(Not saying that this is how everyone plays).

Still a classic game that holds many fond memories.

Thanks for the match video; it's interesting to watch Halo 1 matches, especially because I only played Halo 2 and 3 extensively online.

I never really thought of just how few weapons Halo CE had in its sandbox. I feel part of the problem is that the Plasma Rifle and Plasma Pistol are close to interchangeable and the Needler is useless. That basically removes two weapons from the equation. The power weapons are also non-factors until they appear on the map. That leaves three weapons and grenades.

Your solution works for me just because adding more weapons means the Pistol doesn't have to fill in as many roles.

I agree 8000%. None of the sequels ever recaptured the magic of Halo's sandbox. It's a damn shame Xbox Live wasn't ready in time for its release. And it's a damn travesty that they remade the campaign and only gave us a glorified Reach map pack instead of true online multiplayer.

As for weapon balance, sure, the pistol was the weapon you wanted to be using 80% of the time. But there was still plenty of reason to pick up the other weapons (except the needler).

And is it just me, or has the physics engine never felt quite right since Halo?

Will someone just make a game like this again. I don't care if It's halo. Hell I almost wish it was just some cheap indy game with no single player at all. Just a good pure mp shooter

border said:

I'm pretty sure that Bungie was concerned about making a fun game for everyone. Just because you can argue that the pistol is (or could be) balanced at the highest level of tournament play doesn't mean that its inclusion wouldn't mess up the game for people at lower levels of play and experience.

That said, I think it's a shame they couldn't at least have some kind of functional version of Halo CE that works online.

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But Halo: CE was fun for everyone. Something suiting "high level" competition doesn't preclude it from being fun for everyone. I think the burden of proof is on those saying its inclusion is messing the game up for people at lower levels of play and experience. Does Chess stop being fun for novices because it is played competitively between those of extraordinary skill?

Zinthar said:

The Halo:CE pistol would dominate the plasma pistol + BR combo if they were in the same game -- similarly to how pistol alone dominated plasma pistol + pistol in CE. It has a much lower TTK in almost every scenario.

It's one of the most broken weapons in the history of multiplayer FPS gaming. A match between halfway decent players always devolved into pistol vs. pistol with really rare exceptions where you could use winning the pistol fight to access the power weapons and then completely dominate the match. It was one of those things that would have been fixed in patch 1.01 if only early Xbox games could be patched.

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Both teams make frequent use of Sniper, Rockets, and in the subsequent video on the playlist, the Shotgun and AR. It's the most useful weapon in the game, and these players almost always keep it at least in their pocket, but it's the same in all of the subsequent Halo games (almost always holding the BR in Halo 2/3, or the DMR/Pistol in Reach), so what's the difference? You're exaggerating its dominance for simplistic reasons, and if the video between these highly skilled players can't disprove it, I don't know what can. Online aggregate statistics? No one has ever gathered them for CE. No one.

What's the meaning of "sandbox" here?

creid said:

What's the meaning of "sandbox" here?

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"Sandbox" is the suite of weapons and their functionality and balance within the game environment and settings.

Not coming back. We're not getting halo 1 or 2 style back.

Expect more halo 4 style, arena shooters aren't king anymore.

Good analysis here though, love playing ce

Wow....applause to the op...excellently written.

AMAZING JOB OP!

Thank you!

HiredN00bs said:

But Halo: CE was fun for everyone. Something suiting "high level" competition doesn't preclude it from being fun for everyone. I think the burden of proof is on those saying its inclusion is messing the game up for people at lower levels of play and experience. Does Chess stop being fun for novices because it is played competitively between those of extraordinary skill?

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Bungie's point was that a weapon as powerful as the pistol is fun when you are screwing around with friends on your sofa and everyone's at your skill level or lower.

It becomes less fun when it's just an online stranger shooting you in the back over and over, and since you're online you are subsequently worried about having a crappy kill/death ratio, worried about losing matches and worried about getting downranked.

And yes, I think a lot of people probably don't have as much fun with Chess when they switch from friendly games against friends to online matches against strangers where there's more pressure to act quickly and perform well.

border said:

Bungie's point was that a weapon as powerful as the pistol is fun when you are screwing around with friends on your sofa and everyone's at your skill level or lower.

It becomes less fun when it's just an online stranger shooting you in the back over and over, and since you're online you are subsequently worried about having a crappy kill/death ratio, worried about losing matches and worried about getting downranked.

And yes, I think a lot of people probably don't have as much fun with Chess when they switch from friendly games against friends to online matches against strangers where there's more pressure to act quickly and perform well.

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But Bungie designed a skill-based matching system for Halo 2 based on the ELO system used in competitive chess. Skill mismatches will always be not fun and do not necessarily have anything to do with the actual design of the game.

And when did Bungie deride the design of the pistol? By designing subsequent games differently? That's quite a different thing, no?

It sounds like what you're arguing here is that the pistol won't be fun because good players can beat bad players with it. And that's just a ludicrous argument.

Amazing read. Nothing has really come close to the epic-ness of Halo in the FPS genre IMO. The only Halo I have been disappointed in so far has been Halo 4; I thought the MP was fun, but it wasn't Halo. It was also way too laggy due to no dedicated servers.

Combat Evolved was so far ahead of other console shooters not only at the time, but for years to come. I have probably beaten that game's campaign more than any other game, even though I never even had an original Xbox. I was basically on gameboy advance and PS2 until 2008, but my friend's older brother was a friend of my older brother and they convinced him to get an Xbox because of Halo. My brother was telling me about halo in 2003 or so, and my friend would never shut up about it, and they always said amazing things about it. I kept imagining it was something like Doom (which I loved), but in 2005 my brother bought an Xbox with Halo 2, and then he got C.E straight away as well, and it was so much more. I wasn't into FPS games back then, I had only played Doom, Goldeneye and Turok Evolution on my PS2, but this game made me fall in love with the genre. Co-op campaign was too good to be true, and we ended up playing 4 player split-screen MP, mostly on Blood Gulch with snipers and tanks. It was so ahead of its time, and whenever I hear people that say it was overrated I laugh at how wrong they are. It has aged very well, which is more than what I can say for a lot of shooters. CoD 4 for example was great for its time, but the linear action sequences have worn off and the campaign is now an ugly mess and quite average + ugly.

Halo 4 was a great game, but not a great Halo. It's sad that it still does basically everything better than most shooters, but still isn't enough. That is just how good Halo as a series is when the 'bad' game is still better than most FPS games. The whole genre needs to start innovating and improving, ESPECIALLY Halo!!! It needs to retake the crown it held for so long and move outside its comfort zone. Where has the sandbox gone?

Got a bit carried away, but your awesome thread got me excited. I want the Combat Evolved feels up in me.

HiredN00bs said:

But Bungie designed a skill-based matching system for Halo 2 based on the ELO system used in competitive chess. Skill mismatches will always be not fun and do not necessarily have anything to do with the actual design of the game.

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I know there's a ranking system in Halo. The point was more that having a superpowered quick-kill weapon just becomes less fun for people in an environment where there's pressure to perform.....and that people are just a lot more forgiving of balance issues when they are goofing with friends.

And when did Bungie deride the design of the pistol? By designing subsequent games differently? That's quite a different thing, no?

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You don't think they've been asked dozens of times since Halo 2 why the pistol was made less powerful and less proficient? I don't know if Stinkles ever really gave a verbose explanation, but it was always something to the extent that in an online setting it wasn't really all that fun for players.

You don't get much better than the ogres in terms of halo in general.

Been so long since i had seen a video like this... Great rundown op.