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Fourth Storm · Jul 13, 2014

Found a very interesting tidbit in an interview with AMD's vice president in charge of semi-custom chip business, Saeid Moshkelani. The article is from June, but it appears to have flown under the radar.

Another area of interest for semi-custom is handheld gaming, believe it or not. Everyone thinks it is dead, but the [Nintendo] 3DS is still selling.

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtrader...i-talk-wearables-infrastructure-server-chips/

Earlier in the article, Moshkelani talks up the console business, with its proven product cycles and long lifespans. It is also made clear that AMD are not interested in niche products, ruling out lesser known handhelds:

Has to be at least $100 million annual revenue for us to go for it, says Moshkelani. Thats a minimum, he explains, not a target.

With Sony most likely not prepping a follow up to Vita at this stage, the above quotes seem like strong evidence in favor of AMD getting the design win for Nintendo's next generation handheld. We know that Nintendo are pursuing a unified architecture, while looking to draw from their Wii U programming experience. AMD graphics would make a great deal of sense if they can deliver a product with the right power draw. Couple this information with wsippel's finding earlier this year that Nintendo selected an SoC vendor for an unknown future product back in January of 2013. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=97107539&postcount=11551.

All in all, a semicustom SoC/APU from AMD appears increasingly likely for the 3DS successor. The biggest bomb out of all of this may perhaps be that if this architecture carries over to their next home console, Nintendo may finally ditch PowerPC for ARM on the CPU side.

TheRealTalker · Jul 13, 2014

AMD have been picking up all those contracts lately

1000 Branches · Jul 13, 2014

Hopefully, this deal doesn't fall through like the Nvidia Tegra deal for the Nintendo 3DS did.
EDIT: Is this our first indication of a Nintendo 3DS successor?

Azure J · Jul 13, 2014

Oh I really hope this happens and is as straightforward as you suggest Fourth. Nintendo needs to go as mainstream as possible with its hardware to snag more folks developing for x86 baselines.

More later, I'm distracted by EVO right now.

KojiKnight · Jul 13, 2014

1000 Branches said:
Hopefully, this deal doesn't fall through like the Nvidia Tegra deal for the Nintendo 3DS did.
EDIT: Is this our first indication of a Nintendo 3DS successor?

Nope, we've been getting hints and mentions about the future of the hand held business on and off for months now. They are likely in the prototyping phase.

Naminator · Jul 13, 2014

Nvidia Tegra K1 or bust!

GhostTrick · Jul 13, 2014

Maybe a lower clocked AMD Mullins APU...

Graphics Horse · Jul 13, 2014

I can believe that.

Father_Brain · Jul 13, 2014

Well, it's a given that the 3DS successor will use a more conventional mobile architecture rather than something esoteric like PICA200, but I thought AMD wasn't in the mobile SOC market.

1000 Branches · Jul 13, 2014

KojiKnight said:
Nope, we've been getting hints and mentions about the future of the hand held business on and off for months now. They are likely in the prototyping phase.

Ah, right. I wonder what the next handheld is going to be like? It can't be that far from release, I imagine we'll get our first look at it next E3.

djp6 · Jul 13, 2014

good news for amd, hope they get enough money to become competitive in the cpu market

Orniletter · Jul 13, 2014

1000 Branches said:
Ah, right. I wonder what the next handheld is going to be like? It can't be that far from release, I imagine we'll get our first look at it next E3.

Early 2016 would be my guess. That would be 5 years after the 3DS launched.

antonz · Jul 13, 2014

1000 Branches said:
Hopefully, this deal doesn't fall through like the Nvidia Tegra deal for the Nintendo 3DS did.
EDIT: Is this our first indication of a Nintendo 3DS successor?

That's the biggest situation. AMD really needs their business but AMD has to deliver on what they are promising as we saw with Nvidia there is no safety. If AMD overpromises and under delivers to the detriment of the device Nintendo will go out of there way to find something that will fit the bill even if it means weakening the potential

maneil99 · Jul 13, 2014

Seems like he's just using the 3DS as an example, I mean what else is he going to use? The Vita?

Bsigg12 · Jul 13, 2014

With how quickly AMD APUs are evolving, I wonder how powerful they could make it? Could be really interesting to see Nintendo release a handheld potentially more powerful than the Wii U based strictly on newer, more efficient hardware.

Nikodemos · Jul 13, 2014

GhostTrick said:
Maybe a lower clocked AMD Mullins APU...

Don't think so. The test platform is most likely ARM 64-bit based, with a base-spec Radeon glued to it (the 128:8:4 core config).

1000 Branches · Jul 13, 2014

Orniletter said:
Early 2016 would be my guess. That would be 5 years after the 3DS launched.

Do you think the 3DS can sustain a viable level of sales throughout next year?

antonz said:
That's the biggest situation. AMD really needs their business but AMD has to deliver on what they are promising as we saw with Nvidia there is no safety. If AMD overpromises and under delivers to the detriment of the device Nintendo will go out of there way to find something that will fit the bill even if it means weakening the potential

On the other hand, if AMD can't deliver for the 3DS, then Nintendo's plan for having a unified hardware platform across their handheld and console would be in some serious trouble.

Tenumi · Jul 13, 2014

Bsigg12 said:
With how quickly AMD APUs are evolving, I wonder how powerful they could make it? Could be really interesting to see Nintendo release a handheld potentially more powerful than the Wii U based strictly on newer, more efficient hardware.

Yeah, the APUs are what's getting me really intrigued by this, from what little I do know about them. The next gen handhelds should be quite interesting to see. 3DS was a nice leap up graphically from DS. This leap should be equally as nice, if not more.

Graphics Horse · Jul 13, 2014

Father_Brain said:
Well, it's a given that the 3DS successor will use a more conventional mobile architecture rather than something esoteric like PICA200, but I thought AMD wasn't in the mobile SOC market.

They're in the tablet market, and Nintendo may be going for something larger this time around.

Mpl90 · Jul 13, 2014

This...this could be interesting.

1000 Branches · Jul 13, 2014

maneil99 said:
Seems like he's just using the 3DS as an example, I mean what else is he going to use? The Vita?

Well then, what other handheld would they be designing their SoC for? The non existent Vita successor?

Leafhopper · Jul 13, 2014

1000 Branches said:
Do you think the 3DS can sustain a viable level of sales throughout next year?

I think so.

Interceptor · Jul 13, 2014

Azure J said:
Oh I really hope this happens and is as straightforward as you suggest Fourth. Nintendo needs to go as mainstream as possible with its hardware to snag more folks developing for x86 baselines.

More later, I'm distracted by EVO right now.

Around 2000 everyone was laughing at x86 as an old ass architecture. Funny how the times can change. ^^

Orniletter · Jul 13, 2014

1000 Branches said:
Do you think the 3DS can sustain a viable level of sales throughout next year?

I´m obviously no market analyst...but it is crucial for the 4DS to launch with steady software support and at a good price point....and I just don´t see that possible with the sheer number of titles slated for the WiiU in 2015 .

Hmm. It is probably a "pick your poison" situation.

hodgy100 · Jul 13, 2014

i would love a 3ds successor with good hardware. the 3DS was such a huge disappointment on that front with it being barely more powerful than the PSP :/

Nikodemos · Jul 13, 2014

hodgy100 said:
i would love a 3ds successor with good hardware. the 3DS was such a huge disappointment on that front with it being barely more powerful than the PSP :/

The next Nintendo handheld will most likely be about as powerful as the Vita. Nintendo aren't particularly interested in raw power. And this time around they'll want to keep costs as low as possible.

Fourth Storm · Jul 13, 2014

Looking at AMD's roadmap over the next 2 years, we are probably looking at a 20nm SoC, as going with 16nm/14nm FinFET technology will probably be out of Nintendo's price range.

The design could be based around the ARM A57 CPU core as AMD's custom K12 core might not be ready by Nintendo's timeframe and may only be available on a lower process. I suppose they could theoretically go with a 32-bit ARM core, but that might be stretching the bounds of "semicustom." We'll see how it plays out...

Mpl90 · Jul 13, 2014

Nickodemos said:
The next Nintendo handheld will most likely be about as powerful as the Vita. Nintendo aren't particularly interested in raw power.

Actually, recent words by Iwata can actually be considered hints for an handheld being around Wii U levels...in the same way 3DS is around Wii levels, I'd add.

Jinko · Jul 13, 2014

GOOD.

Lets hope for a 3DS successor with a HD graphics capabilities ... (and screen obviously)

Nickodemos said:
The next Nintendo handheld will most likely be about as powerful as the Vita. Nintendo aren't particularly interested in raw power. And this time around they'll want to keep costs as low as possible.

I think that's acceptable, hopefully they don't screw up their screen resolution this time with 3D.

fredrancour · Jul 13, 2014

1000 Branches said:
Do you think the 3DS can sustain a viable level of sales throughout next year?

Hopefully for nintendo, Amiibo takes off. The handheld NFC peripheral comes out in 2015. Pokemon and smash won't have the legs to last without newer titles supporting them, so there's presumably something else major for next year.

ChrisMahoney · Jul 13, 2014

It makes sense to have an mobile APU. Their next handheld is rumored to be some sort of hybrid console/handheld. (Or at least the games will be easily portable). You can't do that easily unless they have the same architecture.

funkystudent · Jul 13, 2014

Dont really care who makes the insides. Its the screen I am worried most about.

I hope Nintendo make something with a really nice screen this time around.

Interceptor · Jul 13, 2014

ChrisMahoney said:
It makes sense to have an mobile APU. Their next handheld is rumored to be some sort of hybrid console/handheld. (Or at least the games will be easily portable). You can't do that easily unless they have the same architecture.

No.

No.

Still no. Never was.
This rumor is harder to kill than a vampire.

Relaxed Muscle · Jul 13, 2014

Does AMD has any kind of mobile GPU at low power usage?

diaspora · Jul 13, 2014

ChrisMahoney said:
It makes sense to have an mobile APU. Their next handheld is rumored to be some sort of hybrid console/handheld. (Or at least the games will be easily portable). You can't do that easily unless they have the same architecture.

No.

Dr. Buni · Jul 13, 2014

1000 Branches said:
Ah, right. I wonder what the next handheld is going to be like? It can't be that far from release, I imagine we'll get our first look at it next E3.

Nah, we are not seeing the next handheld until 2016, methinks. Not really in a hurry, tbh, the 3DS is out for only three years.

Nikodemos · Jul 13, 2014

Mpl90 said:
Actually, recent words by Iwata can actually be considered hints for an handheld being around Wii U levels...in the same way 3DS is around Wii levels, I'd add.

The Wii is based on absolutely archaic architecture. You'd actualy have to put in quite a bit of effort to make a 2011 handheld that's weaker than that.

Given the absolute necessity for their next handheld to be per-hardware profitable, I really can't see them going with anything more than the barest minimum acceptable performance increase (PS Vita level).

Vashetti · Jul 13, 2014

Nickodemos said:
The next Nintendo handheld will most likely be about as powerful as the Vita. Nintendo aren't particularly interested in raw power. And this time around they'll want to keep costs as low as possible.

If this turned out to be the case, and Sony played their cards right (lol), they could just keep the Vita going and receive ports of the third-party '4DS' games.

Mpl90 · Jul 13, 2014

To clarify better why an hybrid is not what's in the plans and why I've said Iwata hinted at a device around Wii U power:

You have explained your concern about users being divided by hardware. Currently, you have both a handheld device business and a home console business. I would like to know whether the organizational changes that took place last year are going to lead to, for example, the integration of handheld devices and home consoles into one system over the medium term, or a focus on cost saving and the improvement of resource efficiency in the medium run. Please also explain if you still have room to reduce research and development expenses.

A 5
Iwata:

Last year Nintendo reorganized its R&D divisions and integrated the handheld device and home console development teams into one division under Mr. Takeda. Previously, our handheld video game devices and home video game consoles had to be developed separately as the technological requirements of each system, whether it was battery-powered or connected to a power supply, differed greatly, leading to completely different architectures and, hence, divergent methods of software development. However, because of vast technological advances, it became possible to achieve a fair degree of architectural integration. We discussed this point, and we ultimately concluded that it was the right time to integrate the two teams.

For example, currently it requires a huge amount of effort to port Wii software to Nintendo 3DS because not only their resolutions but also the methods of software development are entirely different. The same thing happens when we try to port Nintendo 3DS software to Wii U. If the transition of software from platform to platform can be made simpler, this will help solve the problem of game shortages in the launch periods of new platforms. Also, as technological advances took place at such a dramatic rate, and we were forced to choose the best technologies for video games under cost restrictions, each time we developed a new platform, we always ended up developing a system that was completely different from its predecessor. The only exception was when we went from Nintendo GameCube to Wii. Though the controller changed completely, the actual computer and graphics chips were developed very smoothly as they were very similar to those of Nintendo GameCube, but all the other systems required ground-up effort. However, I think that we no longer need this kind of effort under the current circumstances. In this perspective, while we are only going to be able to start this with the next system, it will become important for us to accurately take advantage of what we have done with the Wii U architecture. It of course does not mean that we are going to use exactly the same architecture as Wii U, but we are going to create a system that can absorb the Wii U architecture adequately. When this happens, home consoles and handheld devices will no longer be completely different, and they will become like brothers in a family of systems.

Still, I am not sure if the form factor (the size and configuration of the hardware) will be integrated. In contrast, the number of form factors might increase. Currently, we can only provide two form factors because if we had three or four different architectures, we would face serious shortages of software on every platform. To cite a specific case, Apple is able to release smart devices with various form factors one after another because there is one way of programming adopted by all platforms. Apple has a common platform called iOS. Another example is Android. Though there are various models, Android does not face software shortages because there is one common way of programming on the Android platform that works with various models. The point is, Nintendo platforms should be like those two examples. Whether we will ultimately need just one device will be determined by what consumers demand in the future, and that is not something we know at the moment. However, we are hoping to change and correct the situation in which we develop games for different platforms individually and sometimes disappoint consumers with game shortages as we attempt to move from one platform to another, and we believe that we will be able to deliver tangible results in the future.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/library/events/140130qa/02.html

ChrisMahoney · Jul 13, 2014

Interceptor said:
No.

No.

Still no. Never was.
This rumor is harder to kill than a vampire.

Be ready to eat your words when both hardware has very similar architecture.

DieH@rd · Jul 13, 2014

TheRealTalker said:
AMD have been picking up all those contracts lately

That's because they have highly modular products that scale from 1W to 100W+. Nintendo should be super smart to fully switch to AMD for both of their upcoming handheld and home consoles.

InsaneZero · Jul 13, 2014

Nickodemos said:
The Wii is based on absolutely archaic architecture. You'd actualy have to put in quite a bit of effort to make a 2012 handheld that's weaker than that.

Given the absolute necessity for their next handheld to be per-hardware profitable, I really can't see them going with anything more than the barest minimum acceptable performance increase (PS Vita level).

Weaker does not necessarily mean cheaper, and vice versa. The most important factor to minimizing cost would be economy of scale (ie: hardware that's already being produced en masse)

Josh7289 · Jul 13, 2014

AMD masters of game hardware.

funkystudent said:
Dont really care who makes the insides. Its the screen I am worried most about.

I hope Nintendo make something with a really nice screen this time around.

I'm hoping that's at least 480p. But knowing Nintendo I wouldn't be surprised if it's only 360p or something. Disappointed, but not surprised.

Nikodemos · Jul 13, 2014

DieH@rd said:
That's because they have highly modular products that scale from 1W to 100W+.

They also exhibit a complete lack of desire to buttfuck their customers on price. Amazing how much such a small detail can count in negotiations.

Lonely1 · Jul 13, 2014

funkystudent said:
Dont really care who makes the insides. Its the screen I am worried most about.

I hope Nintendo make something with a really nice screen this time around.

480p would be my guess.

Relaxed Muscle · Jul 13, 2014

Josh7289 said:
AMD masters of game hardware.

I'm hoping that's at least 480p. But knowing Nintendo I wouldn't be surprised if it's only 360p or something. Disappointed, but not surprised.

480p on 2016!!?

720p is the very minimum.

Also this is a mistake, they should made mobile ports easier....not harder...

DedValve · Jul 13, 2014

Josh7289 said:
AMD masters of game hardware.

I'm hoping that's at least 480p. But knowing Nintendo I wouldn't be surprised if it's only 360p or something. Disappointed, but not surprised.

This will come out 2016 the earliest. He's I know, Nintendo gonna Nintendo but come on....at least psp resolution.

OmegaFax · Jul 13, 2014

AMD selling their mobile GPU unit to Qualcomm was a shortsighted mistake.

gblues · Jul 13, 2014

It would make sense, especially with Nintendo trying to unify mobile and console development. Having a similar architecture for both would help with that goal.

Dr. Buni · Jul 13, 2014

I know people are expecting a very powerful handheld for the 3DS successor, but... the more powerful the handhelds get, the more expensive it becomes to develop games for them and the less "risky" games we get. The DS had a lot of weird and creative low budget games, same goes to the PSP (kinda). The 3DS, while it has a lot of good games, is severely lacking in new and different experiences, so I am afraid the successor would be even more lackluster in this aspect. Don't even get me started on the Vita...

So while I certainly look forward to know how the next Nintendo portable system will be, how strong it will be, etc... I am "scared" about the kind of games it will eventually get. Unless this home console/handheld hybrid becomes a thing, then my fears would instantly die, because it would most likely be an amazing device.

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