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JRPG Battles Without the Battle Music

P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
Can games have this as an option, please? Even some bonus thing like FF13-2's Fragment Skills providing the option would be nice.I can't be the only one who doesn't generally care for a battle theme for EVERY battle and would rather fight to the environment theme. Something about the battle sound effects over normal area themes is appealing to me.

Some examples:

Tales of Phantasia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoTgmRB6QLo

FF7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9gjwu_gUjg

Crono Cross
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4foetX8zbnk&t=3m50s

Other examples?
 
SerTapTap

SerTapTap

Member
I do think it worked rather well in FFX, but it was impactful because it was both unusual for the game and because it was a very dramatic time (with very dramatic fights...some of the things in [that place] take quite a beating). But if battles are only going to be like 30 seconds I can see why you'd want something different.

What would be cool if they could dynamically mix in "battle" music into the main theme during a fight and return to normal afterwards. Not just a fade in/fade out, but some parts are muted and others are added or changed when battle starts/stops. I'm sure I've played a couple games like that but examples don't come to mind. Portal 2 does great stuff with dynamic music, no battles of course though.
 
D

Dark_castle

Junior Member
ponpo said:
Can games have this as an option, please? Even some bonus thing like FF13-2's Fragment Skills providing the option would be nice.I can't be the only one who doesn't generally care for a battle theme for EVERY battle and would rather fight to the environment theme. Something about the battle sound effects over normal area themes is appealing to me.

Some examples:

Tales of Phantasia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoTgmRB6QLo

FF7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9gjwu_gUjg

Crono Cross
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4foetX8zbnk&t=3m50s

Other examples?
Click to expand...

Your examples are flawed because these games all have default battle music. Only in certain moments where surrounding music carried over to battle. Most JRPG I can think off have battle music on during normal encounter, probably other than FFXII and perhaps a few others.
 
C

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
I think it depends on the game. This would be a good option for games that don't have separate battle screens. Xenoblade, for example. As good as it's music was, I really wish each area theme would just seemlessly transition into a battle theme for that area instead of going to a generic one. The generic battle theme also kind of ruined the atmosphere of the final dungeon in my opinion.
 
H

Hades Hotgun

Banned
ponpo said:
Can games have this as an option, please? Even some bonus thing like FF13-2's Fragment Skills providing the option would be nice.I can't be the only one who doesn't generally care for a battle theme for EVERY battle and would rather fight to the environment theme. Something about the battle sound effects over normal area themes is appealing to me.
Click to expand...

I was just discussing this with my wife. For us it is the jarring transition and repetitive quality of repeated battle themes that often disturb the regular BGM. I love it in games when they skip the battle music, it makes the switch from exploration to battle feel more cohseive and less like two unrelated game modes.

Dark_castle said:
Your examples are flawed because these games all have default battle music. Only in certain moments where surrounding music carried over to battle. Most JRPG I can think off have battle music on during normal encounter, probably other than FFXII and perhaps a few others.
Click to expand...

How are those examples flawed? He didn't state or even imply that the games were that way all the time, on the contrary, he notes that he wishes it was more common, nor does his point have anything to do with that anyway.
 
M

magnetic

Member
The problem with battle themes is that not only do you have to listen to them several hundred times, but that you almost never get to listen to them fully, depending on how long battles last in a given game.

The one game where this got the most grating was Dragon Quest Monsters Joker. Not only is the battle theme itself incredibly annoying, but the high-pitched intro strings ever single time you start an encounter was more than I was able to tolerate.

And people seem to really love the battle themes in Persona 3 and 4, but they got old to me even after the first dozen of encounters. The games have great music otherwise, I just wish there was some option to choose between a handful of tracks.

JRPGs is one of those genres that has the most beautifully crafted music, and yet you´re listening to only 2-3 tracks 50% of the time. Fire Emblem Awakening was really brilliant with the dynamic soundtrack.

I really think giving players the option to disable those themes and just have the level music playing in the background like those examples you posted would make a huge difference to me.
 
F

Frologic

Member
I guess you're talking about just turn based JRPGs. iirc, Legend of Mana doesn't have any constant battle themes, along with a lot of other real time combat JRPGs. Just one world map music that continues to play during smaller battles. Only important battles would change the music.
 
G

Gruco

Banned
jnWake said:
I love when Chrono Trigger does that in the Ocean Palace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7pML9YzOYg .

Earthbound / Mother 3 are very smart about this too, since they have many battle themes according to enemy type.
Click to expand...

Black Omen too, IIRC

In general, having a single generic battle theme in an RPG is inexcusably bad design and should never happen. The game is much more fun when the battle music changes dynamically. Ni No Kuni in particular drove me insane with it's single battle track. Letting the area music spill over is a good example of how to mix things up, for sure.
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
killatopak said:
Most of the greatest tracks comes from boss battle music but it kinda works in a way based on context.
Click to expand...

Yeah, mostly talking (dreaming) about random encounters not bosses (despite the OP showing otherwise, I guess). Boss battles are more 'tense' / unique so some new music is good, but when I'm walking around a forest and I have to fight a shrub and an eagle I don't care about the music changing just let me be comfy!!!!!!

magnetic said:
The problem with battle themes is that not only do you have to listen to them several hundred times, but that you almost never get to listen to them fully, depending on how long battles last in a given game.
Click to expand...

I hear you on the listen to them fully thing, but my problem is with the area themes rather than the battle music. I don't really care about battle music not being heard fully but I want to hear area music uninterrupted.
 
S

Soriku

Junior Member
On a somewhat related note, I wish they would just ditch the victory themes and let the battle music continue to play during the results screen.

magnetic said:
And people seem to really love the battle themes in Persona 3 and 4, but they got old to me even after the first dozen of encounters. The games have great music otherwise, I just wish there was some option to choose between a handful of tracks.

JRPGs is one of those genres that has the most beautifully crafted music, and yet you´re listening to only 2-3 tracks 50% of the time. Fire Emblem Awakening was really brilliant with the dynamic soundtrack.
Click to expand...

Yeah, P3 and P4 definitely needed more standard battle themes. Several SMT games do. I hope P5 changes things up, or even lets us play music from older games.
 
D

Datschge

Member
Ideally the game would try to guess how hard/long the battle is going to be and refrain from starting the battle theme if it's only going to last for let's say 10 seconds.

Edit:
Soriku said:
On a somewhat related note, I wish they would just ditch the victory themes and let the battle music continue to play during the results screen.
Click to expand...
NooooOOoo. I actually hate that in games and apps that do that, always feels like a glitch as if I didn't actually win.
 
T

Teremap

Banned
I think having a 'battle version' of the area theme that the game smoothly segues into ala, say, Phantasy Star Online is the preferable course to take to solve this problem - though with obvious caveat that this is a lot more work on the part of the composer. Well, not TOO much work, since all they really have to do is switch up the instrumentation and rearrange some parts to create a 'battle' version.

FFXIV's HM dungeons are a good example of this in action:
The Dark's Embrace (field theme)
The Dark's Kiss (battle theme)
 
O

Octavia

Unconfirmed Member
I'm fine with the way it is now, at least when it's done well. An example of a game that does it well:

Final Fantasy 7
-It has the main battle theme which is well composed, and rather lengthy. Sometimes the game conveys mood and atmosphere by having multiple tiered boss themes, as well as mixing up battle themes with overworld songs (Like the case of that Aerith video in the OP). It's a good mix and keeps things fresh, at least it did for me.

An example of a game that did it bad:

Xenosaga
-1 theme. 1 fucking theme for the entire game. It wasn't even that good.
 
D

desmax

Member
I personally found it baffling how, in FF XIII-2, when you encountered an enemy, the music would change to a battle version of the field theme that was playing; really cool, but when you started a battle, the music changed to a regular battle theme.

Like, they were so close
 
S

Soriku

Junior Member
Datschge said:
Edit:

NooooOOoo. I actually hate that in games and apps that do that, always feels like a glitch as if I didn't actually win.
Click to expand...

It's way cooler when the music keeps going, especially when it's good. Victory themes are generally repetitive anyway.
 
N

NipplesAndToes23

Member
Hell nah, battle themes are the shit! I was disappointed in Sailor Moon Another Story only having one battle theme from start til finish with the exception of the final boss.
 
R

Razzer

Member
Clearly the solution is to have a different battle theme for every area, each one an upbeat remix of the area's theme.
 
A

AtomskEater

Member
All mentioned before in the thread IIRC, but I feel they bear repeating:
Fire Emblem Awakening is a great example of dynamic themes that blends seamlessly with the regular map music.

Kingdom Hearts has different battle themes depending on areas, which is another way to prevent things from getting boring. No seamless blending but each area still has its own flavor.

And Mother has different tracks for different enemy types.

Three ways to avert the 1-2 generic battle tracks for the rest of the game problem.

I do also love when atmospheric tracks are played in favor battle themes for tense moments. Someday The Dream Will End still sticks with me as a prime example.

Edit: I also think Shadow Hearts is worth a mention. If a character's sanity points hit 0, they go berserk and trigger a shift in the battle music from fairly normal to a messed up, discordant remix. Music that shifts due to character status is pretty neat. In short I guess I'm pretty attached to battle music, but there are much better ways of handling it than having the same few songs on endless loop.
 
D

Despera

Banned
Razzer said:
Clearly the solution is to have a different battle theme for every area, each one an upbeat remix of the area's theme.
Click to expand...
You know what that would be perfect.

Fire Emblem Awakening did something similar, but I think a more traditional JRPG would benefit from it even more.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Part of the reason why I think I really took to FFXII is that the music didn't change when in battle. It didn't break my immersion, and it felt like a more cinematic adventure when the music was continuous.
 
D

Datschge

Member
Soriku said:
It's way cooler when the music keeps going, especially when it's good. Victory themes are generally repetitive anyway.
Click to expand...
That may be the case, but battle themes are the cue that a battle is currently going on. It should stop right at the point the battle stops. If you don't want to hear victory themes the area theme should continue from there.

This reminds me, I hate it whenever a developer is too lazy to continue the area theme and instead restart it anew after every battle. It would be neat if the same is applied to battle themes (especially if they are longer than typical battles last), have them continue were left off in the last battle.
 
S

Steel

Banned
Datschge said:
That may be the case, but battle themes are the cue that a battle is currently going on. It should stop right at the point the battle stops. If you don't want to hear victory themes the area theme should continue from there.

This reminds me, I hate it whenever a developer is too lazy to continue the area theme and instead restart it anew after every battle. It would be neat if the same is applied to battle themes (especially if they are longer than typical battles last), have them continue were left off in the last battle.
Click to expand...

Well, I agree, however you could just work it like Muramasa, where the travel theme is continous, however whenever you get into a fight the actual theme changes and becomes harsher, then when the battle ends the theme goes back to what it was in the same spot you leave off in the battle. The travel themes and the battle themes were effectively the same thing with minor changes. Definitely one of the neater things about the game.
 
M

manzoman96

Member
I think what makes those examples stand out is the fact that it does only happen at that one point in the game. It wouldn't be special if it happened all the time.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
manzoman96 said:
I think what makes those examples stand out is the fact that it does only happen at that one point in the game. It wouldn't be special if it happened all the time.
Click to expand...

It should be the other way around. It should be special to have a battle theme that is different from the overworld theme.
 
D

Datschge

Member
Steel said:
Well, I agree, however you could just work it like Muramasa, where the travel theme is continous, however whenever you get into a fight the actual theme changes and becomes harsher, then when the battle ends the theme goes back to what it was in the same spot you leave off in the battle. The travel themes and the battle themes were effectively the same thing with minor changes. Definitely one of the neater things about the game.
Click to expand...
Such dynamic music is rather common now in certain types of games. Personally I honestly don't really like this approach as the usually used simple rearrangements come off as cheap to my ears, I prefer big thematic and atmospheric contrast between such themes. Though that's a matter of taste of course.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
BocoDragon said:
Part of the reason why I think I really took to FFXII is that the music didn't change when in battle. It didn't break my immersion, and it felt like a more cinematic adventure when the music was continuous.
Click to expand...

Same with Vagrant Story, only the boss fights had their own
delectible
themes.

This is more than likely due to their innately MSO/action Dungeon Crawler-based design, which in effect PRECLUDES leitmotify battle music.
 
S

Soriku

Junior Member
Datschge said:
That may be the case, but battle themes are the cue that a battle is currently going on. It should stop right at the point the battle stops. If you don't want to hear victory themes the area theme should continue from there.

This reminds me, I hate it whenever a developer is too lazy to continue the area theme and instead restart it anew after every battle. It would be neat if the same is applied to battle themes (especially if they are longer than typical battles last), have them continue were left off in the last battle.
Click to expand...

Sometimes I just want to hear the battle theme without extra clatter. Switching straight to the area theme isn't much better than letting the victory theme play out first...

Also, for the bolded, SMT Nocturne fades out the battle theme slowly after finishing a fight. If you get into another fight before it fades completely, the theme keeps going. I don't remember if the Digital Devil Saga games did the same thing.
 
M

Myriadis

Member
desmax said:
I personally found it baffling how, in FF XIII-2, when you encountered an enemy, the music would change to a battle version of the field theme that was playing; really cool, but when you started a battle, the music changed to a regular battle theme.

Like, they were so close
Click to expand...

Yeah. Especially since these variants are mostly really good.
 
V

VanillaCakeIsBurning

Member
Most RPG's already do this but only when it's appropriate for the mood or situation they're trying to set.

Others will seamlessly transition into a battle version of the same field track like Nier, PSO2, etc.

Just adding it as an option in the system menu would be enough.

squall23 said:
Suddenly, Trombe overrides your lack of BGMs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCmTJVew_tY

But seriously, I would never ever play a game like Tales of Innocence without the battle theme because it's just too good or SRW without music.
Click to expand...

You know your theme is the best when it overrides the final boss'.

BocoDragon said:
It should be the other way around. It should be special to have a battle theme that is different from the overworld theme.
Click to expand...

Decades of JRPG goodness would disagree with you.
 
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