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0xCA2 · Oct 19, 2014

Mark Zuckerberg. Bill Gates. Steve Jobs. Most of the big names in technology are men.

But a lot of computing pioneers, the ones who programmed the first digital computers, were women. And for decades, the number of women in computer science was growing.

But in 1984, something changed. The number of women in computer science flattened, and then plunged.

Today on the show, what was going on in 1984 that made so many women give up on computer science? We unravel a modern mystery in the U.S. labor force.

Link.

The gist of it is that when women were prominent in CS, most programming was done on computers that no one could have access to outside of college or work. When computers first came into the home, they were often marketed specifically to boys as toys, because of videogames (a whole 'nother story). Computers and programming began to be seen as a "guy" thing and a lot of the baggage in regards to women found in male geek culture became associated with computers, making women feel unwelcome.

The boys that learned programming went to college with that experience. Suddenly colleges started to expect prior programming knowledge going into intro courses. Women, who were less likely to have experience with computers, would end up dropping the major regardless of how good of a student they were or how much potential they had.

It's a great episode and it makes me think even more about how much of myself is shaped by what marketing/society/stereotypes etc says I should or shouldn't be. I can honestly say a lot of who I am comes form me mimicking the male nerd stereotype as a kid.

Booshka · Oct 19, 2014

Marketing, and social stereotypes are everything.

NPR with another great story

Forkball · Oct 19, 2014

How does this compare to other countries? I'm curious to see if the gap is significantly smaller elsewhere.

Paper Sparrow · Oct 19, 2014

Computer Science also relies on math, a subject women are told they are inherently inferior at.

The day when I am not considered an outlier will be a good one.

ItIsOkBro · Oct 19, 2014

Sometimes days go by before I see a woman in my CS courses.

Buckethead · Oct 19, 2014

Mr.Mike · Oct 19, 2014

My friend and I counted 7 women and 1 dude with long hair who we briefly confused for a woman in our Computer Architecture course, out of maybe 70 students. It's really bad. My old major (Engineering) was slightly better, but still terrible.

I wonder if CS courses were mandatory in high school if it would be a bit better.

Paper Sparrow said:
Computer Science also relies on math, a subject women are told they are inherently inferior at.

The day when I am not considered an outlier will be a good one.

Dreams-Visions · Oct 19, 2014

Man I wish I felt up to talking about this right now. I spent quite a bit of time working with Microsoft, IBM, Apple (but mostly MS) and others to help find ways to get more minorities and women into STEM fields. Shit, MS even flew me out to Redmond to be part of a think tank on the subject because they themselves saw the problem in their own ranks and really wanted to address them. I was there with leaders from SWE (society of women engineers), SHPE (hispanic professional engineers), and some other leading organizations. Just trying to find ways to get more minorities and women into the pipeline.

I'm a bit too tired here at 1am to get into deep conversation about it. I will say, however, that the issue is not lost on the leaders of these businesses, professional and service organizations. It's just...it's really hard to push back against a culture that paints scientific women as less desirable and certain fields as jobs someone would associate with people that look and act like Steve Urkel. Nobody wants to be thought of as a "nerd" or "lame" or "awkward", or doing something that doesn't suit their status or gender...and those social pressures tend to be stronger than efforts to try to convince people otherwise. Young people are very impressionable and their peers and the youth culture usually have the most influence of all.

Until we as a culture get to a place where we honor achievers in STEM with the same appreciation (if not enthusiasm) that we honor athletes and thespians, we will continue to see these sorts of statistics.

MartyStu · Oct 19, 2014

Paper Sparrow said:
Computer Science also relies on math, a subject women are told they are inherently inferior at.

The day when I am not considered an outlier will be a good one.

Even if that was somehow true (it is not), there are plenty of jobs in the field that do not require mathlete creds. Unfortunately, the well has been thoroughly poisoned,

Stumpokapow · Oct 19, 2014

Thinking back to my CS degree, upper-division undergraduate classes typically had 12-18 students, and there'd be maybe one or two women.

Engineering at that university was more balanced, but CE was the most male-dominated and EE after that, with Mech and Civil being more equitable.

BocoDragon · Oct 19, 2014

I didn't even touch a line of code until my late 20s, and I believe it's because in the 80s and 90s, I got the impression from society that it was this thing for nerdy males. Though I am a guy, I didn't want to be a geek. I'm not surprised at all that many girls and women got the impression that it was something they didn't need to be interested in.

I've said it before but my current programming classes are filled with women... It's about 50-50. Other gaffers have told me that's atypical. I guess it's because I attend a design + technology program, not computer science per se.

Corronchilejano · Oct 19, 2014

Here there's no such thing as CS. There's Systems Engineering which attempts to do so much in the end it does too little. Even though a lot of women study it, most end up working as QAs while men end up working in coding. Same thing, women work usually as project leaders and men as software architects.

Hypron · Oct 19, 2014

Stumpokapow said:
Thinking back to my CS degree, upper-division undergraduate classes typically had 12-18 students, and there'd be maybe one or two women.

Engineering at that university was more balanced, but CE was the most male-dominated and EE after that, with Mech and Civil being more equitable.

In my experience chemical/materials engineering is probably the engineering specialisation with the most female students.

Chris R · Oct 19, 2014

I had a SINGLE female in my CS classes beyond 201. Granted, we had at most 15 people in a class, and there may have been more overlapping in different years/class schedules.

Dreams-Visions · Oct 19, 2014

Corronchilejano said:
Here there's no such thing as CS. There's Systems Engineering which attempts to do so much in the end it does too little. Even though a lot of women study it, most end up working as QAs while men end up working in coding. Same thing, women work usually as project leaders and men as software architects.

What do you mean by that? Maybe you mean *at your university* there is no CS. There very much was CS at mine, and it was quite distinct from CE or IT.

BocoDragon · Oct 19, 2014

Dreams-Visions said:
What do you mean by that? Maybe you mean *at your university* there is no CS. There very much was CS at mine, and it was quite distinct from CE or IT.

He said "here".

way more · Oct 19, 2014

Last week they had segment on how the early coders were all women because it was seen as the delicate part of computers. The men were the ones who built and maintained the machines, it was the rugged part of computing.

Forgotten Female Programmers.

Bartik was one of six female mathematicians who created programs for one of the world's first fully electronic general-purpose computers. Isaacson says the men didn't think it was an important job.

"Men were interested in building, the hardware," says Isaacson, "doing the circuits, figuring out the machinery. And women were very good mathematicians back then."

Strange how that perception can change from advertising.

ThoseDeafMutes · Oct 19, 2014

A disproportionate number of the women doing introductory programming courses at my Uni were studying Engineering, not Computing. All engineers are required to do the two base level comp sci courses. Even then, the ratio wasn't favorable.

Haven't watched OP's video, but one of the things discussed by my lecturers was that in the very early days of computing, programming and related tasks had an association with data entry, typing and secretarial work and was therefore considered to be very much within the sphere of "jobs for women".

harSon · Oct 19, 2014

Yeah, the demographics of my programming courses are weighted pretty heavily in favor of males. I've also noticed what few females that are in my classes, tend to be first generation immigrants (primarily Asian, South Asian and African).

Chris R · Oct 19, 2014

ThoseDeafMutes said:
A disproportionate number of the women doing introductory programming courses at my Uni were studying Engineering, not Computing. All engineers are required to do the two base level comp sci courses. Even then, the ratio wasn't favorable.

Haven't watched OP's video, but one of the things discussed by my lecturers was that in the very early days of computing, programming and related tasks had an association with data entry, typing and secretarial work and was therefore considered to be very much within the sphere of "jobs for women".

My university had most business majors take 201. The professor I had for 201, my very first semester of my CS degree almost made me pick a different degree.

People can be drawn to CS, but when BAD teachers like my 201 are the first and only interaction some people might have with CS I can see why so few continue on with it.

SolarPowered · Oct 19, 2014

Dreams-Visions said:
Man I wish I felt up to talking about this right now. I spent quite a bit of time working with Microsoft, IBM, Apple (but mostly MS) and others to help find ways to get more minorities and women into STEM fields. Shit, MS even flew me out to Redmond to be part of a think tank on the subject because they themselves saw the problem in their own ranks and really wanted to address them. I was there with leaders from SWE (society of women engineers), SHPE (hispanic professional engineers), and some other leading organizations. Just trying to find ways to get more minorities and women into the pipeline.

I'm a bit too tired here at 1am to get into deep conversation about it. I will say, however, that the issue is not lost on the leaders of these businesses, professional and service organizations. It's just...it's really hard to push back against a culture that paints scientific women as less desirable and certain fields as jobs someone would associate with people that look and act like Steve Urkel. Nobody wants to be thought of as a "nerd" or "lame" or "awkward", or doing something that doesn't suit their status or gender...and those social pressures tend to be stronger than efforts to try to convince people otherwise. Young people are very impressionable and their peers and the youth culture usually have the most influence of all.

Until we as a culture get to a place where we honor achievers in STEM with the same appreciation (if not enthusiasm) that we honor athletes and thespians, we will continue to see these sorts of statistics.

Everything was already painful to read until I reached this. It might take damn near centuries to reach this point. Having grown up in a poor urban environment with minorities (hispanic myself) I literally don't see such a change being possible... not without a MASSIVE push from parents. Schools could do better by pushing math and science afterschool programs too. My impression until now leads me to believe sports are getting the majority of funding and I don't see "nerd" subjects getting that sort of backing on a state or nationwide level anytime soon...

Parents might be swayed if science and computing had that sort of prestige and money. Now THAT might actually happen depending on how the big tech companies decide to push coding, math and science on a middle school and high school level.

timetokill · Oct 19, 2014

It would help immensely if programmers weren't seen as socially awkward and completely sexually undesirable.

At least you get doctor shows and cop shows and so on that show women in these roles and they're beautiful and smart and witty and etc etc etc

I haven't really seen a good "glamorization" of coders, let alone women in those roles seeming to be cool, desirable people. The Matrix seemed like it might be for the first half hour, but then it turned out that good hackers had to stop hacking and turn into martial arts people to become cool.

Paper Sparrow · Oct 19, 2014

Mr.Mike said:
My friend and I counted 7 woman and 1 dude with long hair who we briefly confused for a woman in our Computer Architecture course, out of maybe 70 students. It's really bad. My old major (Engineering) was slightly better, but still terrible.

I wonder if CS courses were mandatory in high school if it would be a bit better.

In this day and age, I wonder why there hasn't been a push for programming classes in the public school system.

The computer classes I took in high school "taught" me how to use Excel, Word, etc. Learning basic programming would have been infinitely more interesting.

ThoseDeafMutes · Oct 19, 2014

timetokill said:
It would help immensely if programmers weren't seen as socially awkward and completely sexually undesirable.

Which reminds me, engineering students were way better looking on average. Like of course you had some handsome dudes in comp but it was just no competition, on avg. And they had a society that actually organized parties and shit. And they had a good soccer team.

Computing society was

Booshka · Oct 19, 2014

timetokill said:
It would help immensely if programmers weren't seen as socially awkward and completely sexually undesirable.

At least you get doctor shows and cop shows and so on that show women in these roles and they're beautiful and smart and witty and etc etc etc

I haven't really seen a good "glamorization" of coders, let alone women in those roles seeming to be cool, desirable people. The Matrix seemed like it might be for the first half hour, but then it turned out that good hackers had to stop hacking and turn into martial arts people to become cool.

Physical dexterity and prowess is harder to display through a Keyboard profession. Doctors improve lives, Cops chase down bad guys, Nerds code and work at Fry's.

Nukemttg · Oct 19, 2014

timetokill said:
good hackers had to stop hacking and turn into martial arts people to become cool.

Or just be in the IT Crowd and know nothing about their job to earn the position.

Dreams-Visions · Oct 19, 2014

ThoseDeafMutes said:
Which reminds me, engineering students were way better looking on average. Like of course you had some handsome dudes in comp but it was just no competition, on avg. And they had a society that actually organized parties and shit. And they had a good soccer team.

Computing society was

my engineering society (NSBE) was the shit. BBQ's, parties, movie nights, special guest speakers, study halls, training on how to study, etc. and I also remember there being quite a few very attractive engineers. Including my then girlfriend, who now works at NASA.

ItIsOkBro · Oct 19, 2014

timetokill said:
It would help immensely if programmers weren't seen as socially awkward and completely sexually undesirable.

At least you get doctor shows and cop shows and so on that show women in these roles and they're beautiful and smart and witty and etc etc etc

I haven't really seen a good "glamorization" of coders, let alone women in those roles seeming to be cool, desirable people. The Matrix seemed like it might be for the first half hour, but then it turned out that good hackers had to stop hacking and turn into martial arts people to become cool.

Every other discipline has pub nights and we have game nights

not that theres anything wrong with gaming or anything but the stereotypes get unified.

A Fish Aficionado · Oct 19, 2014

Paper Sparrow said:
In this day and age, I wonder why there hasn't been a push for programming classes in the public school system.

The computer classes I took in high school "taught" me how to use Excel, Word, etc. Learning basic programming would have been infinitely more interesting.

Schools have enough trouble with just the basics. Let's improve on that before the pipe dream k.

In the Manhattan Project the "computers" were women.

timetokill · Oct 19, 2014

Paper Sparrow said:
In this day and age, I wonder why there hasn't been a push for programming classes in the public school system.

The computer classes I took in high school "taught" me how to use Excel, Word, etc. Learning basic programming would have been infinitely more interesting.

Well, it depends where you went to school, obviously.

In my high school I learned Pascal, Java, and C++, along with a Visual Basic class I took as an elective. I also took a robotics class as an elective, along with basic digital logic courses. I had an entire semester+ of programming classes in credit by the time I got to college.

I wish I had ended up actually following through on it through college but I hated math, and the semester I took in the department was... ugh. The utter lack of women didn't make it more enticing to me, either.

A Fish Aficionado · Oct 19, 2014

Where was that and was that at a "tech" high school?

hoos30 · Oct 19, 2014

SolarPowered said:
Everything was already painful to read until I reached this. It might take damn near centuries to reach this point. Having grown up in a poor urban environment with minorities (hispanic myself) I literally don't see such a change being possible... not without a MASSIVE push from parents. Schools could do better by pushing math and science afterschool programs too. My impression until now leads me to believe sports are getting the majority of funding and I don't see "nerd" subjects getting that sort of backing on a state or nationwide level anytime soon...

Parents might be swayed if science and computing had that sort of prestige and money. Now THAT might actually happen depending on how the big tech companies decide to push coding, math and science on a middle school and high school level.

My neighbors and I are organizing a group in our local area specifically to combat this. Introducing accelerated math, computer science and robotics to young people (we're targeting third to fifth graders, before some of the negative impressions get implanted).

If you haven't seen them before, check out learntomod.com and firstlegoleague.org, both awesome programs that we'll be using.

Dean Kamen, the founder of FLL, has this corny saying, but it's true: "We're teaching kids a sport that every single one of them can go pro in". That might be a way to appeal to parents.

Dreams-Visions · Oct 19, 2014

hoos30 said:
My neighbors and I are organizing a group in our local area specifically to combat this. Introducing accelerated math, computer science and robotics to young people (we're targeting third to fifth graders, before some of the negative impressions get implanted).

If you haven't seen them before, check out learntomod.com and firstlegoleague.org, both awesome programs that we'll be using.

Dean Kamen, the founder of FLL, has this corny saying, but it's true: "We're teaching kids a sport that every single one of them can go pro in". That might be a way to appeal to parents.

Before you start a new group, make sure you can't join forces with a larger, existing group in your area. Diffusing efforts across multiple orgs usually has the unfortunate effect of weakening them all. Larger existing groups need as much help from passionate members as they can get.

Elfforkusu · Oct 19, 2014

Really interesting that the downward trend correlates exactly with the fall of the mainframe and rise of the PC.

Dreams-Visions said:
Man I wish I felt up to talking about this right now. I spent quite a bit of time working with Microsoft, IBM, Apple (but mostly MS) and others to help find ways to get more minorities and women into STEM fields. Shit, MS even flew me out to Redmond to be part of a think tank on the subject because they themselves saw the problem in their own ranks and really wanted to address them. I was there with leaders from SWE (society of women engineers), SHPE (hispanic professional engineers), and some other leading organizations. Just trying to find ways to get more minorities and women into the pipeline.

I'm a bit too tired here at 1am to get into deep conversation about it. I will say, however, that the issue is not lost on the leaders of these businesses, professional and service organizations. It's just...it's really hard to push back against a culture that paints scientific women as less desirable and certain fields as jobs someone would associate with people that look and act like Steve Urkel. Nobody wants to be thought of as a "nerd" or "lame" or "awkward", or doing something that doesn't suit their status or gender...and those social pressures tend to be stronger than efforts to try to convince people otherwise. Young people are very impressionable and their peers and the youth culture usually have the most influence of all.

Until we as a culture get to a place where we honor achievers in STEM with the same appreciation (if not enthusiasm) that we honor athletes and thespians, we will continue to see these sorts of statistics.

.

Doesn't help that programming is, as a general rule, lonely and unappreciated work. At least it pays well...

hoos30 · Oct 19, 2014

Dreams-Visions said:
Before you start a new group, make sure you can't join forces with a larger, existing group in your area. Diffusing efforts across multiple orgs usually has the unfortunate effect of weakening them all. Larger existing groups need as much help from passionate members as they can get.

We've been researching and haven't found anything similar in our particular city. Some neighboring jurisdictions do, but not ours.

timetokill · Oct 19, 2014

A Fish Aficionado said:
Where was that and was that at a "tech" high school?

The school is public but also has a "tech" program that comprises over half their students. So yeah, it's a magnet school.

Looking through their awards stuff, apparently Newsweek ranked them in the top 50 best high schools in the country, and was ranked #1 STEM high school by USNews sometime in the past decade. Of course, I went there over a decade ago.... (sob, I'm old)

Elfforkusu · Oct 19, 2014

Actually, looking at that chart again, the really jarring downslide isn't 1984, it's 2004-2007.

~28% to ~18%? That's crazy.

Paper Sparrow · Oct 19, 2014

A Fish Aficionado said:
Schools have enough trouble with just the basics. Let's improve on that before the pipe dream k.

In the Manhattan Project the "computers" were women.

My mom's school got tons of money for technology related things. Every teacher has an iPad and the computer lab is amazing.

And they don't use that lab... oh, public school system, you so crazy.

timetokill said:
Well, it depends where you went to school, obviously.

In my high school I learned Pascal, Java, and C++, along with a Visual Basic class I took as an elective. I also took a robotics class as an elective, along with basic digital logic courses. I had an entire semester+ of programming classes in credit by the time I got to college.

I wish I had ended up actually following through on it through college but I hated math, and the semester I took in the department was... ugh. The utter lack of women didn't make it more enticing to me, either.

I wish I went to your school. I wouldn't have wasted time with Biology if I knew how cool computers really were.

ItWasMeantToBe19 · Oct 19, 2014

Mr.Mike said:
My friend and I counted 7 woman and 1 dude with long hair who we briefly confused for a woman in our Computer Architecture course, out of maybe 70 students. It's really bad. My old major (Engineering) was slightly better, but still terrible.

I wonder if CS courses were mandatory in high school if it would be a bit better.

The "girls are inferior at math" stereotype is so horrid. Even the field of Economics struggles badly to attract women and I think it's because of the math stereotype.

hoos30 · Oct 19, 2014

Paper Sparrow said:
My mom's school got tons of money for technology related things. Every teacher has an iPad and the computer lab is amazing.

And they don't use that lab... oh, public school system, you so crazy.

In general, teachers don't know how to teach technology to students. It's barely different than asking the drama teacher to teach an Arabic course.

Paper Sparrow · Oct 19, 2014

hoos30 said:
In general, teachers don't know how to teach technology to students. It's barely different than asking the drama teacher to teach an Arabic course.

Actually they can get someone to teach it, it's just that they have only one IT person (who will probably leave because they are underpaid).

No one thought this through.

BocoDragon · Oct 19, 2014

Elfforkusu said:
Actually, looking at that chart again, the really jarring downslide isn't 1984, it's 2004-2007.

~28% to ~18%? That's crazy.

That actually creeps me out... because what exactly what the greater social context there? I lived through that era. I can't think of any obvious shift in how computers/programming were perceived before+during that time, and/or female gender roles.

Maybe that's the 1984 echo? If female coding dropped off in 1984, then the women who had grown up in that world would have been college age in 2004-2007. They never knew a world where they had female coding role-models, and it had an effect when they chose their majors.

A Fish Aficionado · Oct 19, 2014

Are they comparing advanced degrees with bachelor's?

Devolution · Oct 19, 2014

Honestly like certain stuff just got more insular and isolating. It feels like the uber nerds of the past were actually more socially accommodating and less shitty to women instead of being entrenched.

Victarion · Oct 19, 2014

Zero girl presence in my computer classes (Finland). Except some game design courses with 2-3 girls. Which is ironic because back in my home country any IT related class was at least 50% female.

BocoDragon · Oct 19, 2014

Devolution said:
Honestly like certain stuff just got more insular and isolating. It feels like the uber nerds of the past were actually more socially accommodating and less shitty to women instead of being entrenched.

I can understand that reaction... but when I read revelations like these, I realize it was really just the same arbitrary gender roles being channeled in a pro-coding direction:

mac said:
Last week they had segment on how the early coders were all women because it was seen as the delicate part of computers. The men were the ones who built and maintained the machines, it was the rugged part of computing.

ThoseDeafMutes said:
Haven't watched OP's video, but one of the things discussed by my lecturers was that in the very early days of computing, programming and related tasks had an association with data entry, typing and secretarial work and was therefore considered to be very much within the sphere of "jobs for women".

Winterfang · Oct 19, 2014

Paper Sparrow said:
Computer Science also relies on math, a subject women are told they are inherently inferior at.

The day when I am not considered an outlier will be a good one.

I never heard of that one, weird. I know lots of girls in the pharmaceutical business and they just gobble that Math straight up. Though the big majority of the people I know, despise math.

Wiktor · Oct 19, 2014

Winterfang said:
I never heard of that one, weird. I know lots of girls in the pharmaceutical business and they just gobble that Math straight up. Though the big majority of the people I know, despise math.

Well...isn't pharmaceutical business completely dominated by women? Same with any medical one to be honest. At least that's what I see here in Poland when I look at medicine universities. It got so bad some tried to even introduce a quota for men (afair 20%), to ensure more diversity, but women sued and won on the grounds of it being legalized discrimination and thus unconstitutional

hoos30 · Oct 19, 2014

BocoDragon said:
That actually creeps me out... because what exactly what the greater social context there? I lived through that era. I can't think of any obvious shift in how computers/programming were perceived before+during that time, and/or female gender roles.

Maybe that's the 1984 echo? If female coding dropped off in 1984, then the women who had grown up in that world would have been college age in 2004-2007. They never knew a world where they had female coding role-models, and it had an effect when they chose their majors.

Usually recessions cause shifts in majors like that. I'd like to see the % change for men in CS at that same time.

Droplet · Oct 19, 2014

We've been getting a lot more women in tech at Berkeley as interest in startup culture has boomed over the last couple years. Class sizes have increased dramatically as well, but the gender ratio in many of our lower division CS classes is probably around 2:1 male to female, which is already a great improvement. I'm really excited to see perceptions of women in tech change in the next years, as right now what I see is not too favorable.

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