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Destiny |OT35| Time to Explain At Last

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C

commish

Jason Kidd murdered my dog in cold blood!
Watching a trials stream reminds me why I hate PvP in this game. It's just a sliding, auto-aim sniper-shot fest.
 
D

Darryl M R

Member
Any trials team starting soon? I'll give it a quick shot, do we have confirmed trials armor info? I do not care about the weapons, I want endgame trials looking gear.
 
F

Frenden

Banned
Nghtly is doing normal damage at low 290s. So use whatever gear is your best perk-wise, not what gear is your highest light level.
 
MagnetoWasRight

MagnetoWasRight

Member
Bogeypop said:
Need 1 more for Trials. Aiming for Mercury. Biggy says no scrubs
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I'm on. :D
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Navy Bean said:
Nghtly rocking TLW like there wasn't even a nerf... Your results may vary lol.
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The nerf is not that bad for guys that knows how to use TLW cowboy mode at close range... the nerf was more about these that used TLW at mid/long range.
It is a good gun yet.
 
N

Nuszka

Member
Yo Javier , do agree with all of it. But this game holds me so much by the balls, that I'm blind to those issues until someone will write them down/summarize for me.
 
S

Strider

Member
Ok I've never played elimination so take this fwiw but...

Super charge rolling over from round to round in a competitive mode (if there was ever a mode to disbale them this is it)?

This giving 2 lives to SunBro Warlocks?

Quick as fuck revives (exotic I'm sure) with instant shield recharge so you can run out for a revive and put yourself in shit position with no consequences?

Looks fucking awful and this is just from half a game of watching Stable's stream
Can't believe Unstable stack went up 3-1 in a round but dude just ran out in the open, ate some bullets, instant revive that gave him shields back... proceed to pop hammer and win round. Disgusting and I bet it gets worse as it gets more sweaty with more wins.

Idk maybe it's fun actually playing but not lookin likely so far...
 
T

Twilight Gap

Member
ocean said:
Yo. Missed you guys. After over a month absent, I'd like to vent with my fellow GAFers for a while.

I would pay US$60, happily, to go back to HoW Destiny. That's how much the game has gone downhill for me with The Taken King. I'll try to explain why, but if you're not interested in a long rant on a topic which has no doubt been discussed to hell and back, please feel free to ignore this post :)

So let's begin with what I feel The Taken King got right:
1. The best story missions in the game, by far.
2. The best strikes in the game, by far.
3. Swords: the single biggest addition to the gameplay experience since the game launched.
4. Kiosks: for real, this is amazing for people like me who like collecting.
5. Smart Loot: before you start, it's a real thing. Sadly, it's only implemented at the Vendors for dealing out shaders/ships/emblems you don't have yet.
6. 3 of Coins: if RNG bullshit will forever be a thing in this game, at least let me try and brute force it. Good call to make Strikes somewhat relevant.
7. Glass Needles: oh man, this is genius. Getting the right subclass armor boost on your chest, or the right reload on your gauntlets, means EVERYTHING. So good for people who like their gear tuned to a certain way.
8. Raid: I still think it's the best Raid in the game. Mechanically compelling, with myriad strategies being viable for the final boss, large stretches of chill jumping to banter and laugh with buddies to break up the tension between fights. Beautiful scenery. I absolutely love King's Fall, though I respect those who like VoG better. Drizz makes some fantastic arguments and I agree VoG feels more thematically cohesive. But I feel gameplay wise KF is just a ton of fun outside of Totems and running circles at Oryx (both feel silly).

Now you might be wondering how I feel this expansion is such a huge step back considering I love so many of the changes. Well, the reason is I believe the mistakes far outweigh anything good which is offered. And it's sad, because after a year of solid constant play I never really thought I'd get tired of this game. But now I get home and literally don't feel like playing at all.

I'd need a full thread to fully explain everything so I'll try to just bullet point it instead.

1. I hate stunted vertical power climbs. The best thing about HoW-era Destiny was the fact that all your progress was horizontal after the first week. It took a day or 2 to be max level, and everything after that was purely optimization of your loadouts. Every single legendary in the game had the potential to be relevant. Whether it was an Int/Dis Gauntlet you liked from VoG for the Special Weapon loader perk, or that lucky old LDR you had, or maybe a great drop...an Etheric Light (of which we had piles and piles) would instantly bring it up to speed.
I have a ton of stuff I'd like to try now. But bringing that new sniper I got to the Raid would mean sacrificing 2-3 special weapons at 300+. I have to cannibalize my inventory for the sake of a few new things. It's frustrating.

Even worse, reaching max level isn't even an aspirational thing anymore. Even with #forever29, people sought to reach 30. Because it was close. It was doable. The game hinted it was imminent (just need that one pair of boots!). Now, reaching max level depends on having 10 individual pieces with low drop rates from a once a week activity drop at max level. And given the fact they can drop anywhere between 310 and 320, there's only a 9% chance that chest piece you got will actually serve to push you to 320. And even then, chances are overwhelmingly stacked against you if you hope it'll have good perks on top of the good Light.

Do you see what I'm saying? Once people reached 305ish, they kind of gave up on teaching 310 because of how damn unlikely it was. Hell the total number of 310s before HM (like the total number of 320s before the imminent 330 power creep) was probably the smallest subset in the community. And if your game is designed for reaching max light to be practically impossible, encounters are designed in one of two ways:
A) max light is irrelevant
B) you're at a penalty forever until you reach it.
Right now I feel it's a). The raid was easy at 295+, hard will be easy at 315+. Max Light is irrelevant. But it also dangles in front of players as a goal in a way that just makes it frustrating when you don't progress - even if said progress is meaningless. It's just a layer of "you don't need this but it exists and lol good luck getting it" which I feel serves little to make the game more enjoyable.

They stated loadout diversity was a goal of this expansion. But when you have to chose very carefully which weapon will be getting that 316 infusion, because you'll likely not get another fodder this good for a while, you're basically asking players to marry a set. I mean a show of hands please: your highest Light specials are 1,000 Yard Stare / Black Spindle; Primary Hung Jury / Touch of Malice; heavy Raid Machine Gun. After that, you optimized your PvP loadout (a good Pulse, a shotty/sniper, Truth). Such fresh variety. Sure, some people will be like "oh naw I raid with a different Gunsmith weapon every week" but let's be honest. Loadouts are not more diverse than they were for the endgame and probably less actually (at least elements were a reason to switch for different content but now Hung Jury is like good for anything).

Making it hard, almost ritualistic, to upgrade guns makes that diversity impossible or just impractical. I wanna play around with different sets of armor for looks and perks but there's a limited supply of 310+ stuff I can pump into them. Etheric was the perfect solution, and it's a huge, enormous shame they got rid of that. It was the perfect equalizer and made anything you liked viable in an instant. HoW was the age of loadout freedom in that regard.

That's just gripe #1. You can still quit if this is too long.

2. Fatehorn of Confluence's Verdict: or, the insane fear of making OP weapons. I get it. Some Year 1 stuff was good enough that there was no reason to switch out. But holy shit did they overshoot in the contrary direction or what. Raids are, along with Trials, the true endgame - the grounds to prove yourself. A big part of the motivation is (or was, rather), the enticement of compelling rewards. Not anymore. This actually began with PoE but was overlooked because of life-saving Etheric Light.
King's Fall is my favorite raid. I love it. But goddamn the rewards are absolute garbage. "Don't be so exaggerated".

Ok like I honestly mean this, yet I accept it's subjective and a matter of opinion. There has never been anything remotely as ugly as this meat and bones aesthetic. It's gross. The base stats are average for all these guns, other than higher than usual aim assistance on a few things (namely Scout and Sniper). Random perks on Raid gear are a mistake. Random Light too, but that I addressed above. People wanted Fatebringer because they knew what they were getting. A gun which could go to max level, had a solid perk tree which everyone loved. Now it's like I hope Oryx gives me the Pulse...and I hope it's got Firefly...and I hope it's 320. Like, sure! Run this a few dozen times and maybe :)

I honestly expected Harrowed versions to be compelling. But to feed us literally the same gun with the same stats and the same perk tree and the same random light (I got double 310 chest the other day. One was white and one was black. Literally cloned pieces, perfectly equal, for content decidedly unequal in difficulty).
I can replace *anytning* the Raid drops with a better looking and performing alternative from a Vendor, outside the admittedly good Machine Gun. I mean I think there is ample space between "OP, never unequip" and "cool drop, I'll infuse my _______ with this". When the Light Level is more important and attractive than the loot itself, you've it a problem.
When I beat Oryx, I don't give a shit if I get shards or a scout because they're identical to me: just shit which I'll never use I. The game. Unless it's super high light. Then it's useful...to feed guns I already had. Outside the Machine Gun and Firefly Pulse, I don't feel there's any compelling reward to King's Fall beyond the cool emblems. Yeah. The emblems are the best thing you get. That's not right.
Fatebringer, Vision of Confluence, Found Verdict, Black Hammer, Fang of Ir Yut, Word of Crota, Shadow of Veils, a Solar Six Dreg Pride...this was the kind of stuff people got excited about. And it had nothing to do with the attack level of the guns (that would be sad). It was the guns themselves. We've lost that. And I think it's a shame.
The Raid is no longer an aspirational activity where you show up weekly trying to get something cool. It's a place you go hunting for a number. Serious blow to the experience in my opinion.

3. Weapon balance. If you've ever accused someone of being a salty HC user or whatever, skip this please.
The nerf to HC accuracy is probably what led me to mostly quitting the game. It just isn't fun for me to *miss shots*. The range nerf? Totally necessary. The TLW ADS 111 fix? 100% necessary. Tuning Thorn DoT to stop the double taps? Holy shit was that overdue. But affecting the accuracy of a weapon does t make it less powerful - it makes it frustrating and unfun. I got a Fatebringer-roll I. Loop. I was so hyped!
Fed Motes and Parts to upgrade it immediately. Infused it even without using. Hype. Took it out for a spin patrolling Venus. Shot a Goblin, looking for that amazing double-feedback Firefly+Outlaw. Got a body shot instead. Immediately dismantled the gun, turns off the game and just felt so deeply pissed that they'd take such a crazy decision. "That's on you for being a bad shot" whatever. I still use HCs plenty. My kill count with them is still higher than every other weapon type combined (by faaaaaar). But I and most others who still use them all know what these phantom shots are. Where your reticle is just a joke to tease you.
They killed the HC and I can't really feel the game until that's undone. But on top of that, Pulse Rifles are absolutely way too effective at range (HCs used to be too, I've admitted as much), making Scouts still sub optimal choice for most encounters. The result? Pulse Rifles eeeeverywhwre. Everywhere. It feels more stable than ever. I've never found Crucible as boring as it is now.
Thorn, Hawkmoon, TLW: 3 guns, 3 play styles. If opponents are using it it'll feel like 3 different verses. On the other hand, using or countering a Niwen's or Red Death or Villainy or Grasp it Hawksaw is the same thing. I feel like 100% of my kills are by the same gun. Change the name and paint job but they're way less differentiated because they all courage the same range / approach to playing.
After tens of thousands of kills in the Crucible, thousands of games... I just don't feel it anymore. The magic is gone. I have to rock a Pulse to be competitive. "Nah dude I swear I still own fools with Hawkmoon, it's hyper viable". Ok. If you're good you're good. But I think it's self evident that using anything but a well rolled PR right now is handicapping yourself. If you're good enough to make up for it, more power to you. But it doesn't change the fact that the weapon unbalance went from a few viable guns (TLW, Thorn, Hawkmoon, Messenger/Hopscotch/Red Death), to a single, generic blob of differently named but identical playing PRs.

And I won't even get into Sunbreakers. I started the game on a Titan. I've logged more hours on my Titan than any other character. But the new super is broken as all shit. It was *embarrassing* to read some people saying otherwise. Holy crap. How on earth is class fanboyism even a thing? Don't we all play all 3 classes? Holy shit.

4. "We don't want this to feel like a job. But if you want marks you gotta play every single day, the 2 spots we chose for you to do". Uh ok? I don't do patrol. That's some poverty Destiny stuff, shudder. I buy my planetary materials with marks. I used to be able to hop on a Sunday, play Crucible for a few hours and top off my marks. Buy some stuff. Now? You have to play every single day if you want to keep earning marks. You might say there isn't much to do with them, but I like buying stuff for looks. Full vendor sets for my characters, I test vendor weapons that look interesting, Speaker Class Items. I c are more about the looks than the perks for the most part, since the game isn't demanding enough for you to really *need* any perk outside of super sweaty PvP or show off solo PvE stuff. And now I can't use my weekends to "make up time" and get marks. Nah. I play a few hours of Crucible and get.... 0 Marks, 0 Legendary drops, 0 3oC usage, and maybe a few shitty blues from rewards screen. I never really played for the loot but right now if you focus on PvP you'll be starving for Motes/Parts/Glimmer/Coins very quickly.
The best thing about HoW was that they let PvP oriented players focus on that and still keep up. I got regular Legendaries, marks motes, coins, you know the stuff you need. Now you just gotta play for the sheer pleasure of it. Which I actually wouldn't mind so much. Except motherfucking quests and bounties and Marks and emblems and shit have ruined Crucible.
Every match there's some idiot who doesn't like PvP but he's there because he needs those 15 marks. Or he'll go 3-23 because he's running after everyone with a hilt or something. I'd love a playlist where you made zero progress on quests and bounties. Where people came to actually play. But nah. Shit I'm raging just by thinking about this.

There's other gripes, such as having a fully unified player base for once (TTK took care of fragmentation by demanding everyone own TDB and HoW) and yet still fragmenting content for no reason (repetitive Map / Strike location is less understandable now than ever). There's the fact that somebody at Bungie saw it fit to gate endgame rewards behind *FARMING MATERIALS*. Those Swords and ToM? That was some P2W shit-tier iOS 5 game design garbage. I've never insulted a developer, and often called out those who do. I respect the Bungie team a lot for making my best game ever. But they also need us to remind them when they mess up. And asking us to run around patrol for hours farming materials? It's not challenging. It's not engaging. It's not fun. It's almost funny but it's just sad. I was terribly disappointed that they ignored how badly we hate doing this and went with it anyways just to make getting these things take longer.

There's the fact that we're constantly hungering for weapon parts - again incoherent with their diverse loadout philosophy. There's the quitting problem, worse now than ever, with no sanctions (seriously, if you quit out of a matchmade activity you should at least have a cooldown period of 10-15 minutes before you can matchmake again). There's more joining shit matches in progress than before. There's game crashes - which I *never* had for a year, and are now a thing that happens every once in a while. There's complete silence on armor they've teased and some people have but apparently isn't obtainable yet. Why show it? Just surprise us and get good press, avoiding this time gate bitching. No word on them trying to make Heroic Strikes worth running. There's no clear roadmap on new expansions anymore.

I don't know. I have all the new Exotics, all the new Ghosts and fragments, full Raid sets, done Heroic Raid, did all the quests out there. Bought dances, grinded for Masks, I've really consumed and enjoyed all the new content. I've gotten my money's worth. And I still love this game. But I'd pay for a downgrade. I'd pay as much as I've paid so far - the whole thing put together - to go back to HoW.

When I could take any Legendary and make it viable. When people played PvP because they liked it, and played to win, not trying to fill in a dumb quest or bounty. When you could easily find a group for VoG or CE or PoE or a Strike farm or a Crucible train because they all offered avenues for horizontal progress - any drop was potentially an instant 365. When I could re roll and take gear off my mind and just build a perfect loadout and use it to have fun. When I could make marks whichever day of the week I wanted, on whatever playlist I wanted. When changing my class item for cool looks didn't fuck my grenade cooldowns or actual level. And yes, when I could shoot my Hand Cannons without the frustration of them randomly missing.

Ok. Glad I got that off my chest and I'm glad to be back! Trials hype! Love you folks.

Sorry for the obscenely long post.
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i missed you
 
O

ocean

Banned
Sane_Man said:
Taken King definitely isn't perfect, with lots of issues that need addressing, and a lot of the issues Ocean raised are legit, but to yearn for House of Wolves is insane. Taken King is better at almost all the things that really matter.

The raid alone is better than everything in House of Wolves combined.
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Well like, this totally depends on what matters to you. What matters to me are the recurring experiences.

The campaign was amazing. But it was a one-time thing. I'm not gonna get hyped about Regicide ever again. It was amazing, but it doesn't really affect the endgame.

The endgame is now one of constant grind and stuttering progression and PvP broken by supers, messed up incentives via quests and thus quitters, and zero progression potential. The Raid is cool, but lacks the aspirational quality. In the jump to Y2, tons of content we used to play was made irrelevant: Nightfalls, VoG, CE, PoE. The weapon balancing made ARs better but they're still not optimal basically anywhere. And HCs are definitely not optimal anywhere. So I suppose it depends on what it is you play the game for.

I don't yearn for HoW because of a specific piece of content added that I liked. There was a mediocre arena (with my favorite boss in the game though) and literally a single Strike. Consuming the content initially was far less satisfying that the TTK campaign and post-campaign was. But once you're done with the checklist and just playing for fun - where we spend the months after the initial weeks? It shone. Everything was viable, you could progress anywhere. It was beautiful.

But I am well aware this is very much a matter of opinion and perspective. I posted some of these thoughts on Reddit. I have posts literally deleted to down votes and other where I've been given Gold and hundreds of ups. What the fuck Reddit Gold is remains a mystery to me btw. It's a weird place.

I missed all you maniacs.
 
F

Frenden

Banned
FarNorthLegend was just saying on stream that TLW is not viable to aggressively push and that he's forced to switch to pulses.

Sad panda.
 
S

spyder_ur

Member
Macello said:
LOL at none of the streamers buying the boons before the matches started.
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Ha, yeah, I don't think it'll bother Unstable and Drizz too much though - I'm glad I saw them do it before I start.

This seems like a decent Trials map - definitely better than some of the oth TTK maps.
 
J

JohnOfMars

Banned
Boguester said:
I'd keep all the pulses with counterbalance and the Darkblade fusion since that's a decent roll on a strike specific weapon. Autos are autos (meh) and neither sniper jumps out at me.
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Thanks, Puma & Drizz for the opinions. That should free up some Vault space & give me some marks.

Really conflicted about what to do tonight. I'm at 306 Light with my Raid gear and want to try Hard KF with an experienced group. But I'm also 299/300 light with a good PvP setup and want to give Year 2 Trials a shot.

Anyone doing a Hard Raid tonight?
Anyone willing to take a newer Trials guy into their group for some runs?
 
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