Support NeoGAF

[Ferr986]

Just curious... I always think about how the series is perceived as such a brutally hard experience, when it's truly not and is seriously one of the most unique and rewarding games to date. But its frustrating because so many folks I'm sure pass because of this misconception even if they experienced it and felt it was hard. The thing is, once you adapt its fair as can be and I mean I just wish everyone could see what gems these games are. They have some of the most incredible and rewarding moments, I just want every gamer to experience it and see how good they really can be.

Just a thought, but I would love to help some who can't get into it find a way to finally break the barrier, the series is just that good

I truly love the Souls series, I have +1000 hours in this series, but no game is for everyone, and Dark Souls is not an exception.

So no, it doesn't frustrate me, I don't need every gamer to praise the game because I understand not everyone will like it, and I don't feel like we need to push theg ame onto them, that just makes the Souls community look more annoying and entitled.

These games can be more difficult for some people than for us, difficulty at the end is very dependant on every person, for example I can beat these games yet my 10years old cousin beat the shit out of me in FIFA,, or it can feel a shallow game for some because they lack someting (for example, a friend kind of enjoyed the gameplay and art but got bored of it because it had 0 story).

At the end, Dark Souls follows a more old school formula, and not everyone likes it, be because of difficulty or because some other things. That doesn't mean they don't understand the game. Games have changed a lot compared to the "early days".

EDIT: Oh yeah, and the game is legit hard, period. We should stop thinking inside our enthusiast gaming forum bubble. Everyone can beat it, yes, but for some it will be way harder than for others, and some people just don't like playing games this difficult, and that's fair.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I haven't played them much but loved the heck out of Demon's Souls. I found it to be like a Zelda game, it wasn't too hard, just unforgiving if you mess up too much. It was fun running around like I owned the place as I got comfortable with zones. Good times.

I didn't get into the other souls games because I waited on reviews and other stuff grabbed my attention. Then Dark Souls 2 was said to be not as good, especially with the lighting situation so I just left my experience to the good times I had with Demon's Souls. Mature Zelda, bows, swords, and shields.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'm not frustrated because the games are indeed and actually hard, compared to most modern games. Of course, compared to 80's and 90's arcade games (and lots of modern indies) they're a cakewalk, but that's not the point: the point is that their difficulty is hard compared to the AAA average.

I'm more frustrated by the fact that, in general, most modern gamers flee anything that is remotely challenging, of which Souls may be the most visible, high-profile example, but far from the only one. I'm frustrated because, to me, playing a game that only offerst token resistance and even a monkey can finish is a waste of one's time and brainpower. Gaming has largely become a paralel to "turning on the TV and watching whatever is on", the path of absolutely least mental resistance.

tl;dr; I'm not frustrated because people call them hard; I'm frustrated because of the perception of that as a knockdown argument to even attempt to play them. Embrace the challenge.

 

[slamerz]

Personally while I love the Souls games it does kind of suck that most people look at them as "OMG SO HARD" even a lot of people who love them think their super hard and that's the point! When the real allure of the game is that it's hard, but fair. When you get stuck on a boss and you die it's your fault. You could have dodged it, you could have rolled. It's on your shoulders, and that is why when you have a problem with progressing and you finally beat that troublesome boss it's one of the most rewarding games out there.
The hard battles get your heart pumping, each roll you scared out of your mind because if you mistimed it you're dead.

Plenty of games can be hard for the point of being hard, look at so many NES and arcade games that are made to be super difficult, but you hate them because you feel like there was nothing you could do, while souls has found that perfect balance of giving what might seem like unfair damage to monsters, but giving enough control of the action and pacing that you feel responsible for your actions. You always feel like you could have done better, rather than an Original Japaneses Megaman where an enemy comes right from off screen and kills you and you never actually had a chance.

 

[Zocano]

I'm a crazy elitist shit when it comes to these games. In a similar line of thought to Weltall above me, I want people to embrace the challenge.

But I want people to embrace the challenge and beat it fighting up-hill at all times. I love watching the struggle and overcoming the difficulty "underpowered".

Basically no cheese, and not overleveled to shit. In a way I think it defeats the challenge before you even get to it and does a disservice to you overcoming the game.

But I beat these games with SL1 runs and actively avoid leveling up too much because I know it would make the game too easy for me. I want everyone to git gud so it frustrates me when people "rob" themselves of that struggle and overcoming that struggle.

 

[CybernatonEvolution]

Nope. The direction of game design that the developers took after capitalizing on marketing the difficulty of the game is what truly frustrates me and makes me worried about the future of the franchise. It is also, in my opinion, the direct reason behind "souls fatigue".

To elaborate more, Fromsoft is trying to make the souls games more difficult in an obvious corner-cutting kind of method. They just made enemies overpowered and boring to fight; basically hyper aggressive, hyper-armored mobs (a lot of them especially elite versions) with infinite stamina, infinite attack strings, insane range and tracking. Not only that, but those stupid enemies are littered everywhere in great numbers and in tight places. I think that affected level design and overall options viable to the player.

DkS 3 did start strong with good level design and connectivity, but then it faded midway. The enemy design and focus on melee limited the play style options, hence the decreased replay value of the game (there are certain things that can be done to make the game more enjoyable in NG+ and new save files). It is hard to beat the game over and over and experiment with challenge runs or builds imo. It is possible, but the current game design doesn't encourage me to do so (I don't feel the urge).

I find DkS 1 and DeS very interesting and replayable, whereas DkS3 doesn't feel the same; it isn't memorable and doesn't have the variety of strategy and equipment.

 

[John Caboose]

I'm not bothered, it's just another common and ultimately harmless misconception.

 

[ponpo]

What mainstream game series is generally more difficult?

 

[kagamin]

ITT: "Once you use these tactics that took me hours to learn and years of experience playing games, it's not hard at all"

Yeah, no shit. That's every game ever. I guess difficult games simply don't exist.

What, so you want a legitimately tough game? Might as well go play Shinobi PS2 if you want straight up a goddamn difficult game.

 

[Orakio Rob]

Slightly off-topic, but there was a DS1 playthrough on YouTube by a guy who was very knowledgeable about the game, explained the lore, pointed out many small details... at the time, I stopped watching because of spoilers. Now I want to watch it, but I can't remember who this guy is

Can you help me, fellow gaffers?

Edit:

Most likely EpicNameBro

If not then fuck if I know

Solved!

 

[Zocano]

Can you help me, fellow gaffers?

Most likely EpicNameBro

If not then fuck if I know

 

[JediLink]

I think it's fine how it is. If they didn't have the perception of being hard, there would be far more people going into them unprepared and giving up early.

 

[Auctopus]

It frustrates me when people brag or over-dramatise the difficulty in the game, potentially putting off new fans. So many people I know just know that Dark Souls is a "really hard game" instead of all the other things that make it special.

 

[Orakio Rob]

Most likely EpicNameBro

If not then fuck if I know

That's it, thanks!

 

[abstract alien]

Compared to most of the games we get now, Souls is damn challenging and clearly difficult for a lot of people. It's like saying a certain combo in Street Fighter isn't hard when there are people that can't grasp the concept of a charge character. Sure, it's mostly fair(unless you fight a giant boss with a shit camera), and there is a learning curve and feel to it, but to say that it isn't difficult is clearly ignoring the fact that most people seem to think otherwise.

Just because we can do it and understand it, doesn't mean everyone else can or feels it's worth the investment.

 

[Corpekata]

I'd say the hardcore fans playing things off like they are not that hard are probably doing more harm to newbie gathering than the game's reputation.

 

[Thorgal]

That's it, thanks!

while on the subject , if you want to see more of the lore or story of the souls games in general , check out Vaatvidya's channel

Guy has pretty much become the lore Guru of the souls games .

 

[Capitan]

I mean it is hard, though. It's definitely good, definitely fair, but it's hard for someone new to it. If someone doesn't like hard games or doesn't have the patience to fail and come back to it, it's probably not their game.

 

[cireza]

I don't care if people miss out on a great series because they have no patience. Because Souls games are simply about patience, learning and trying to play well, that's all.

Not everyone is ready to invest himself seriously in a video game anyway. Many players out there simply want a brainless entertainment.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

I laugh every time someone thinks the games being hard is the point/game is designed around it.

Yea, I think people feel it's a game to just put your balls in a vice and crush them and it's not. It's not about being difficult to be difficult

I think you're both saying different things. The games are supposed to be difficult and it IS a part of the design, but they're not as difficult as people think

 

[Jyrii]

Souls games don't have difficulty settings, so people finding it hard cannot really do anything than get good.

Though leveling up and upgrading weapons can help.

 

[ugly]

Chiming in to say I like the souls series but genuinely think they are some of the hardest games Ive ever played and I've beat super ghouls n ghosts

 

[Copenap]

No, I do not get frustrated about it but I get what you mean. I definitely died more times playing through New Mario Bros U than Dark Souls.

 

[YianGaruga]

What, so you want a legitimately tough game? Might as well go play Shinobi PS2 if you want straight up a goddamn difficult game.

I actually made it to the final boss in that game but quit there, and I never do that. I remember it being utter bullshit.

That wasn't really my point though!

 

[Dmax3901]

I mean, the games are harder than most there's no doubt about that.

 

[sixteen-bit]

i couldn't imagine it frustrating me

 

[SumGamer]

Difficult/Hard is a relative description. Just like everything in life, everything that take skill take practices. Hours of practices. Which I don't really have for Souls. Once I spent thousand of hours into Monster Hunter on PSP, so I know a thing or two about experimenting and observing behavior of the target.

IMO, it's most healthy to take "Hard/Difficult" comment as "I don't have time for this shit, leave me alone". If you go and ask those who can't play guitar why they can't, one of the most common answer would be it's too difficult for them.

That said, I really wanna like Soul but it's too difficult for me.

Spoiler

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

A lot of people love that it's has a reputation for being difficult.

To be fair, if it wasn't a genre of games that I enjoy I wouldn't bother putting in the effort for it when there's so much else to play.

 

[uomoartificiale]

I feel that the meaning of "hard" depends on the context. I think most people mean "frustrating" when they talk about the souls games. And I agree in the sense that you get that inebriating feeling of victory, and overcoming adversity, from your determination of going again and again against what may seems at first insurmountable odds.
As example, the first boss fight against the iudex at the beginning DS3 gave me that vibe and it felt glorious. And I guess the more you get later in the game, the more this feeling is dampened by leveling and skill.

 

[autoduelist]

Yes, but I doubt most people have had the frustratingly difficult experience of playing games like Tales of Maj'Eyal or Etrian Odyssey (but much less so than the former).

I've beat ToME and Nethack, and I grew up back when games gave you 3 lives and every game had 'permadeath'. So... yeah, it's odd to me when people say D*Souls is 'hard'. Not really. You can die as much as you want. Losing souls is no big deal - it may feel like hardship, but even losing tens of thousands of souls is meaningless in the scheme of things.

Combat wise, the devs build in 'cheese' methods to kill every boss. I feel like some people go ways they clearly shouldn't go [cemetary in Dark, for example] and instead of turning around and trying a new area, just keep dying til they give up. It's not that the game is hard, it's that they're so used to linear games that the idea of turning around and trying a different area is alien to them.

Oh well.

 

[2+2=5]

I have only played demon's souls and honestly i have always felt it was an easy game if you played it the way it was meant to be played, slowly and cautiously, like a stealth game, i was enjoying it until i was left with 2 stupid difficult spikes(the 2 monsters on a bridge and the false king i think that wasn't really that hard but redoing its hard and long level everytime was really frustrating) and left it.
I dunno the other souls games but imo what really makes demon's souls hard is just the lack of checkpoints or save games, i'm pretty sure there are many games that would be way harder without checkpoints.

 

[ASIS]

I gave the Dark Souls 1 more tries than I remember. Every time I reach lower undead burg I just quit. There are some great things in the game that's for sure. But in my opinion outside of the level design (which is mind blowing btw) I couldn't find anything fun in the game. The repetitive nature is extremely off putting to me (and yes it's because I die a lot), the lore is confusing at best, the aesthetics are not what I'm into, the combat system feels way too heavy and the controls don't feel as responsive as they should be (for instance, a lot of the times you can't interrupt the animations of your character until it is too late). The UI menus are a pain, and the stats make no sense.

The game is all about pattern recognition through trial and error as well as precise timing,you need to know which enemies are situated where and you need to tread with caution every time, only to pull ahead ever so slightly from your previous spot and then get punished by new surprises which means dying and restarting these new bits of information.

To me, that resulted in a frustrating experience where I couldn't enjoy the level design of the game. This frustration is directly linked to the difficulty of the game. So I suppose in this situation I'm part of the problem I suppose.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

ITT: "Once you use these tactics that took me hours to learn and years of experience playing games, it's not hard at all"

Yeah, no shit. That's every game ever. I guess difficult games simply don't exist.

Exactly. It's like the curve itself is seen as distinct from overall difficulty for some.

 

[gdt]

I couldn't care less.

 

[zoukka]

No, I do not get frustrated about it but I get what you mean. I definitely died more times playing through New Mario Bros U than Dark Souls.

You can't compare the deaths in a mario game and the souls game.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Wait, what? Are we acting like souls games aren't hard now?

That process of adapting is the difficulty. What you're saying is that the game isn't hard once your good at it.

Also on the actual question, not really. If people don't enjoy the game or don't want to put the effort in to learn them why would that frustrate me? What joy could I possibly get from someone playing a game they don't like? Like, yeah, there is more to them then the difficulty, but that doesn't mean the difficulty doesn't exist.

I agree with you. I have to roll my eyes when someone says it isn't that hard, you only have to be attentive, have patience, learn all the patterns of the bosses, and adapt.

Yeah, that means it's doable. Not that isn't hard. A game where you do all those things and still can't beat wouldn't be a difficult game, but a nigh impossible game for masochists.
Every game is doable after X hours of trying. It's about how many you need.

 

[Red Liquorice]

I feel like all these discussions have been done to death and nothing else can be gained from them. If you're STILL asking for easy mode, you just don't get it and you never will.

 

[Morfeo]

Souls games are basically what every single game was like before "experiences" took over.

Pretty much.

 

[AntiFacebook]

Yeah, it does bother me that people try to pretend the dark souls games aren't hard

 

[w0s]

No. I tend not to get frustrated over video game related matters. Well other then my own incompetence from time to time.

 

[Field]

I'm more annoyed when hardcore gamers say it's so easy while it's still a lot harder than most popular games in recent years

 

[Markoman]

See Ninja Gaiden, that's a hard game, not because of awkward controls, unfair enemy placement, overpowered enemies or dodgy mechanics.

That's a proper old school hard game because you have to be on it form the get go, it's fantastic.

Lol, Ninja Gaiden I+II are hard games, because the camera is your worst enemy.
For a start, the camera is too close to the action for a fast paced game like this, which is designed to keep you constantly moving with all those enemies attacking you with off-screen range-attacks. Loved both of those games, but they're far from gaming design perfection, especially for casuals.

 

[tuna_love]

oh man i just hate noobs so much

 

[Deft Beck]

I tried to play Dark Souls 1 and quit about three hours in. I had to get a summon to defeat the first boss and then felt too stressed out by the castle area.

I was also deathly afraid of getting invaded, which is apparently core to the experience.

I'd rather play my inaccessible, esoteric music games than this series.

 

[Vital Tundra]

It's really not that hard. And when you are having trouble with the game there are multiple ways to make it easier. Level up, upgrade equipment, and summon someone. All of those thing, especially the last, are meant to make the game easier, so stop the bitching.

 

[brawly]

No. If someone drops it because they're impatient, don't take time to learn the game or simply say "I don't have time to die over and over again", then it's their loss, not mine.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

oh man i just hate noobs so much

What?

Anyway, it's more of a product of the "git gud" group of players that this difficulting mislabel happens. Some people are able to play a Soulslike game easier than others new to the genre (ARPG) and that translates into a crowd that puts their skill level above everyone else (even though the game is just tough but fair)

I'm awful at PvP but I breezed through the DLC yesterday because I'm not that good at combat against players but I can understand the world rules well enough.

We just need to let others understand that it's ok to suck in some areas to have fun on the critical path.

 

[Deft Beck]

Pretty much.

I think that's a distorted generalization.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I get frustrated when people try to tell me bloodborne is better than Dark Souls 2. They're the same quality.

 

[atpbx]

Lol, Ninja Gaiden I+II are hard games, because the camera is your worst enemy.
For a start, the camera is too close to the action for a fast paced game like this, which is designed to keep you constantly moving with all those enemies attacking you with off-screen range-attacks. Loved both of those games, but they're far from gaming design perfection, especially for casuals.

I didnt say perfect, and yes, the camera is sometimes an issue like you've said, but it doesn't screw you with it, and to be honest, it's not something I ever noticed.