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[Lime]

This question was spawned by the "Lost a friend..." thread. Right now (and before the election) there is the call to white people to talk with and engage their their friends and relatives about their racism and not having them vote Trump or at least show up at the elections. This is a strategy that I can definitely get down with.

But when is the boundary crossed for when you have to drop that friend or family member? It's easy for me as a white person to drop a friend because of racism but I'm not the one who's going to face the bigotry. And since there's the call by scholars and activists to have white people engage their white relatives and friends, I would feel bad for not continuously trying to engage it (until a border has been crossed), so it seems counterproductive to drop them. At the same time, staying with the friend and trying to be diplomatic can also be an implicit approval of her/his bigotry, as already mentioned in the other thread, and we don't want to legitimize bigotry as a political opinion.

I.e. it's an incredible difficult balance. If anyone has suggestions/ideas on how to tackle this, I'd highly appreciate input.

 

[Viewt]

It's tough, man. I have multiple people in my family who voted for Trump. People who've stood by me and helped me in the past. I haven't talked to any of them since the election - not because I've cut them out, just because we usually only check in on one another every 1-2 months. These are people who I've been able to disagree with politically in the past, but this is different. I really don't know how to approach it.

Intellectually, I feel like there's nothing to be gained by cutting them out. It's not going to make Clinton president, it's not going to offer any comfort to the women, people of color, LGBT community, Muslims, etc. who are feeling justifiably terrified at the reality of a Trump presidency and GOP-controlled Congress and Supreme Court. So on that purely logical level, I wonder if the best thing to do is just tell them how their decision has made me feel, hear them out when they respond, and leave it at that.

But, then, in my heart, I still have a lot of anger. And the idea of just sweeping it under the rug and normalizing this freakish nightmarish hellscape feels like a slap in the face to the people who are actually going to suffer because of my relatives' decision (especially because a lot of them are in FL, which contributed greatly towards Trump's win).

I won't ever turn my back on the oppressed in this country, and so even though I plan on supporting them in concrete, direct ways (donations, volunteering, protests, trying to keep the conversation going whenever possible), shuffling my feelings to the side just to keep the peace in my family feels like a selfish move in service of comfort, not civility.

So I don't know. I just don't know, man.

 

[Audioboxer]

It's tough, man. I have multiple people in my family who voted for Trump. People who've stood by me and helped me in the past. I haven't talked to any of them since the election - not because I've cut them out, just because we usually only check in on one another every 1-2 months. These are people who I've been able to disagree with politically in the past, but this is different. I really don't know how to approach it.

Intellectually, I feel like there's nothing to be gained by cutting them out. It's not going to make Clinton president, it's not going to offer any comfort to the women, people of color, LGBT community, Muslims, etc. who are feeling justifiably terrified at the reality of a Trump presidency and GOP-controlled Congress and Supreme Court. So on that purely logical level, I wonder if the best thing to do is just tell them how their decision has made me feel, hear them out when they respond, and leave it at that.

But, then, in my heart, I still have a lot of anger. And the idea of just sweeping it under the rug and normalizing this freakish nightmarish hellscape feels like a slap in the face to the people who are actually going to suffer because of my relatives' decision (especially because a lot of them are in FL, which contributed greatly towards Trump's win).

I won't ever turn my back on the oppressed in this country, and so even though I plan on supporting them in concrete, direct ways (donations, volunteering, protests, trying to keep the conversation going whenever possible), shuffling my feelings to the side just to keep the peace in my family feels like a selfish move in service of comfort, not civility.

So I don't know. I just don't know, man.

Well said. Its easy for someone online to project and tell you to scorch the earth with every family member and friend you've ever known. They don't know the people like you do.

Ultimately its up to you to decide but remember advice online while it can be helpful is ultimately just that. Advice. None of GAF is actually living your life. Only you are.

 

[Lime]

At the same time it's also important to ask why should bigots receive all the time and energy, while minority groups are left out, ignored, or overlooked. I don't know how many articles and time have been spent on the "white working class" and trying to empathize with bigots, while the ones facing Trump's fascism are in the margins of the conversation.

 

[Viewt]

At the same time it's also important to ask why should bigots receive all the time and energy, while minority groups are left out, ignored, or overlooked. I don't know how many articles and time have been spent on the "white working class" and trying to empathize with bigots, while the ones facing Trump's fascism are in the margins of the conversation.

Absolutely. We're taking all of this time to consider how to approach Trump supporters, and every time I wrestle with how to approach it, all I can think of is a family that fears being deported, or a trans person who fears being policed every time they want to use a fucking bathroom, and how insignificant and petty my own struggle is in comparison to theirs.

 

[Kisaya]

I'm pretty biased because I have dropped family (parents and siblings), but it took a lot of time for me really disconnect my love with them. The way I learned is someone who is that hateful shouldn't deserve my love.

 

[Lime]

Absolutely. We're taking all of this time to consider how to approach Trump supporters, and every time I wrestle with how to approach it, all I can think of is a family that fears being deported, or a trans person who fears being policed every time they want to use a fucking bathroom, and how insignificant and petty my own struggle is in comparison to theirs.

Yeah, exactly, which is why we need to push and to fight. I think it's probably a good idea to gather support from other fellow white people to do the work needed and console and help each other when dealing with bigots and/or reaching out to help the people facing all this bigotry.

I'm pretty biased because I have dropped family (parents and siblings), but it took a lot of time for me really disconnect my love with them. The way I learned is someone who is that hateful shouldn't deserve my love.

I'm sorry to hear. How have they reacted in the aftermath if I may ask? If it's too personal I totally understand not sharing.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I've had people who were job references drop me for minor things like making a basic social media acknowledgement of Black Lives Matter. I'm doing fine, but what's it like for people who only have a few connections like this? I stopped talking about politics online just to make sure I kept things cool with other people who I may need to vouch for me (which is also why I've become way more active about it here while games became less important to me). I also have people who use me as a reference who I feel have become adult assholes, but I have to find ways to speak about their positive attributes.

I don't know of any good universal advice for anyone regarding these balances. I moved from the southeast to the northwest to escape that repressive culture, but it's always following you and keeping you in check in some way. I feel like all of this new focus on rural America is just white supremacy finding a way to turn our recent focus on black struggles toward talking about white people again. That isn't to say that conversation isn't necessary as well, but it's like watching a GAF thread play out in real life.

 

[RecRoulette]

Friends I can understand, but I'm always wary of people dropping family, especially somewhat close family. You can't really pick and choose. Sure, you may have some insanely racist aunt but you can't expect your dad to stop talking to his sister as well. This just leads to you cutting more people out of your life than you want.

If you end up cutting a lot of family out of your life, it's really tough to go back on that. And you usually find that out the hard way (someone's funeral for example). Not saying people should never cut family out of their life, there are plenty of legit reasons to do so, but just know what you're getting yourself into, and if you're okay with that if it ends up being permanent.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Got a growing struggle with my youngest (17 years) brother. He obviously couldn't vote this election, but he was cheering for Trump because of his father (different from mine). Along with that he's constantly complaining about minorities. I don't know how to drill into his head why what he says is not right. I can't even educate him because he legitimately thinks education is bunk (thanks again to to his idiot father). If he keeps following in his dad's path then I'm probably going to end up having little to nothing to do with him.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Friends I can understand, but I'm always wary of people dropping family, especially somewhat close family. You can't really pick and choose. Sure, you may have some insanely racist aunt but you can't expect your dad to stop talking to his sister as well. This just leads to you cutting more people out of your life than you want.

If you end up cutting a lot of family out of your life, it's really tough to go back on that. And you usually find that out the hard way (someone's funeral for example). Not saying people should never cut family out of their life, there are plenty of legit reasons to do so, but just know what you're getting yourself into, and if you're okay with that if it ends up being permanent.

I've had to do it, it's not that big of a deal. I made sure to say I think we can't be friends, but I have your back whenever you really need me, so keep my info. Don't close the door. You end up with the same result of never interacting because it's just better for both of you, but it doesn't feel like death.

 

[The Lamonster]

I don't think it's that tough. If you voted to support and embolden racism and sexism on a national level, we no longer have a relationship.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

Friends come and go, but enemies? those are forever.

 

[Lonewulfeus]

I scorched all trump supporters from my life except my dad.

 

[BastardSamurai]

Ask me after this holiday, when I visit my brother-in-law (he's married to my wife's sister). We're generally buddies, and due to some crazy circumstances, he ended up giving his car to help out my family.

It's been all good leading up to the election. He's in law enforcement, so we already had some differences of opinion, but all above board and civil -- nothing crazy.Xmas will be the first time I see him since the election and his many recent pro-Trump posts.

 

[Pilgrimzero]

Dropped a friend due to his severe anger and hate if anyone didn't think like he did. So much he belittles you in calm discussions.

I finally had enough when he called me out publicly to apologize to him.

As far as I know he's lost atleast 2 friends over it.

 

[Valhelm]

From my experiences, young people think a lot less about their own personal convictions than you might expect.

Explaining to your uncle that Trump is wrong would be more difficult.

 

[Edzi]

Cutting ties with family over stuff like this sounds insane, but Gaf has taught me that it's pretty easy for some people. As far as friends go, I might step back from them if I find out they've got some really messed up views, but it'd probably take a lot for me to consider actually cutting them out of my life entirely since that seems pretty drastic and permanent.

 

[guek]

This question was spawned by the "Lost a friend..." thread. Right now (and before the election) there is the call to white people to talk with and engage their their friends and relatives about their racism and not having them vote Trump or at least show up at the elections. This is a strategy that I can definitely get down with.

But when is the boundary crossed for when you have to drop that friend or family member? It's easy for me as a white person to drop a friend because of racism but I'm not the one who's going to face the bigotry. And since there's the call by scholars and activists to have white people engage their white relatives and friends, I would feel bad for not continuously trying to engage it (until a border has been crossed), so it seems counterproductive to drop them. At the same time, staying with the friend and trying to be diplomatic can also be an implicit approval of her/his bigotry, as already mentioned in the other thread, and we don't want to legitimize bigotry as a political opinion.

I.e. it's an incredible difficult balance. If anyone has suggestions/ideas on how to tackle this, I'd highly appreciate input.

Family is messy to begin with. The touchy subject of racism compounds that into the stratosphere. Every family dynamic is a little different, every family has different boundaries. Some fights aren't worth fighting before they begin, some aren't worth losing family over. I don't think it's possible to give any general rules for how families should interact other than not standing for things like abuse, criminal activity, or hate crimes.

 

[Slo]

You can't influence people who you refuse to even speak to.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

You can't influence people who you refuse to even speak to.

Consequently they can't influence you either. Or are you implying I can only influence racist family members but I'm somehow immune to theirs?

 

[Dynasty]

Just take comfort in the fact that when Trump screws up and doesnt fullfill his promises you can say I told you so and rub it in. It is petty but maybe next time they will listen to you so when Trump 2.0 comes along hopefully they think twice. I done this with all my friends that voted Brexit but now realise the effects of the weaker pound.

 

[Sheentak]

The worse is when it's a family member you have to see during family events like Christmas. Sure I can avoid them and not talk to them for the rest of the year but them Christmas happens and it's awkward.

 

[lord_of_flood]

I have quite a few friends and family members that voted for Trump. In particular, some of my family members are really into the right-wing conspiracy bullshit. I think the most I've had to do was unfollow them on Facebook so that I wouldn't see a bunch of garbage on my news feed. Haven't really felt the need to escalate things any further than that, since they're otherwise decent people in real life.

 

[Eylos]

Family is tough i ignore even if its hard, they often offend communists, even knowing i'm one, they speak dumb shit like Hitler is a commie, etc... they are beyond salvation, like the penguins in Madagascar I just smile and wave.

Friends i give the middle finger and hasta never.

 

[M0nochromatic]

It's not that hard to cut them out in my case. The amount of influence I have on my family is insignificant compared to their conservative facebook feeds and fox news.

 

[yanipheonu]

I usually just aloofly say, "Hey, my policy is just not act like a dick to people. Seems to work out better than starting shit all the time. I don't have time to waste on racism."

 

[SeanTSC]

I have no interest in having relationships, of any kind, with racists who back crazy shit. Family does not, and will never, supersede the importance of being a decent human being for me and it does not make me feel bad to tell them so.

My dad's a piece of garbage for being a racist and I have let him know how I feel about it time and time again over the years. That kind of behavior makes you a piece of shit and I say so right to his face, non-jokingly and dead serious.

On the plus side of that, he's started to call people Niggers less and less over the past couple years and shows slight indications of feeling bad about it. Hopefully my complete loss of respect for him has hurt him as deeply as his shitty, old-white-man attitude has hurt others, because he has certainly earned it.

 

[God Dayumm]

You do not have to tolerate people that think less of you or that make you uncomfortable. Drop them, unless you think you have something to gain from them, in which case avoid the topic.

 

[Nepenthe]

The only people in my life who I know voted for Trump are online folks who I don't have any real emotional ties to anyway, so this isn't something for me to think about. #blackprivilege

But, assuming I did, it would depend upon the previous strength of our relationship and their reasons for voting that way. For example: My dad was a Republican, and if he were here today and in the mind of voting for Trump I would have the context of some of his life experiences to understand why he would automatically vote for, say, the pro-life candidate regardless, and in general we had a good enough relationship to where I could let it slide and still love him.

However, one of my friends/acquaintances from SCAD voting for Trump because they're buying into the xenophobic rhetoric? Lol, bye Felicia.

 

[Lime]

I've had to do it, it's not that big of a deal. I made sure to say I think we can't be friends, but I have your back whenever you really need me, so keep my info. Don't close the door. You end up with the same result of never interacting because it's just better for both of you, but it doesn't feel like death.

That's actually a good way to approach it. Try to as much as possible, and when the dam breaks, cut if off, but not completely.

You do not have to tolerate people that think less of you or that make you uncomfortable. Drop them, unless you think you have something to gain from them, in which case avoid the topic.

But if it's not you who is thought of as less, but other friends and family, then what? As some activists and scholars are saying:

But someone’s got to tackle this. We can’t sustain a country that visits systematic rural deprivation on a large swath of its population. We can’t keep actively fostering the conditions for social and economic unrest. We can’t — you can’t, especially, if you’re middle class, white, and from an urban area — use your #woke credentials as an excuse to blind yourself to the ugly truths of unequal distribution. You don’t have to hug a Trump supporter, or even understand their racism, to do the simple work of fixing socio-economic despair that is the breeding ground for fascism. You can’t hide behind your POC friends to hide away from how you’re the only people with the power, safety, and privilege to ensure this doesn’t happen again. That the politicians you spend so long Facebook posting celebrity endorsements in enthusiastic support for actually give a shit about demographics that aren’t you, whether poor folk or people of color. You’re the only people who can get through to other white people, and the only ones who can push your politicians to care about more expansive communities.

You don’t get to deflect anymore, or defer responsibility to someone less perfect than you for not having turned up to the polls and voted for Hillary. You have to fight the battles that aren’t safe for other people to fight, you have to show the empathy that other people can’t, you have to engage where only your voice will be heard. You have to shoulder the struggle. Anything less is complicity.

White people failed their brothers and sisters of color last Tuesday, and now you better roll up your sleeves and get to work on fixing this. Because two years from now in the midterms, and four years from now in the next presidential election, this country has got to have something to vote for, not just a terrifying fascist to vote against.

http://feministing.com/2016/11/11/h...doing-the-ugly-work-that-isnt-safe-for-us-to/

The only people in my life who I know voted for Trump are online folks who I don't have any real emotional ties to anyway, so this isn't something for me to think about. #blackprivilege

But, assuming I did, it would depend upon the previous strength of our relationship and their reasons for voting that way. For example: My dad was a Republican, and if he were here today and in the mind of voting for Trump I would have the context of some of his life experiences to understand why he would automatically vote for, say, the pro-life candidate regardless, and in general we had a good enough relationship to where I could let it slide and still love him.

However, one of my friends/acquaintances from SCAD voting for Trump because they're buying into the xenophobic rhetoric? Lol, bye Felicia.

Thanks Nepenthe for the input and your experience. What would you advise to those who are not affected by the bigotry spewed by friends? I.e. as the above article is suggesting, is it high time for white people to do ugly work and reach those with abhorrent beliefs (or perhaps convince the apathetic or moderates)?

 

[.JayZii]

All I can say is that there are about to be a ton of awkward Thanksgivings around America in 10 days.

 

[UncleSporky]

Can't imagine cutting someone out of my life on this basis. Seems like a good way to increase the net suffering in the world. They die unloved and alone, you die unloved and alone...or alternatively, both continue associating with people who only think alike and retreat further into their respective ideological extremes. "See, that's the kind of person with those beliefs for ya. You know them for so long, rely on each other through thick and thin, and then poof, gone. Even family, your own flesh and blood..."

 

[Slo]

Consequently they can't influence you either. Or are you implying I can only influence racist family members but I'm somehow immune to theirs?

First, not you, we.

If we are better educated, more evolved, more culturally enlightened, and we have the moral high ground, then we ought to be able to out maneuver them. If all those things are true, then we're playing chess and they're playing checkers.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I've noticed that the ones who constantly talk about their racist or otherwise questionable family members and how it's "not worth the hassle" or how they "don't want to cause problems" are usually quick to wag their fingers at others for not wanting to have anything to do with racist family.

My family's cool with a lot of different races in it so I've never had the problem to be honest. Good look to those who deal with this issue in some concrete fashion.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Can't imagine cutting someone out of my life on this basis. Seems like a good way to increase the net suffering in the world. They die unloved and alone, you die unloved and alone...or alternatively, both continue associating with people who only think alike and retreat further into their respective ideological extremes. "See, that's the kind of person with those beliefs for ya. You know them for so long, rely on each other through thick and thin, and then poof, gone. Even family, your own flesh and blood..."

When I read things like this, I just think none of you posting it know what it's like to have a direct family member call you a faggot and kick you out, or when you have a Guess Who's Coming To Dinner moment and they end up never speaking to you again. Like you think people having trouble with racist and hateful friends or family are referencing simple disagreements that could be resolved if we were just nicer to them.

 

[Coffee Dog]

If your family is racist, to engage with them is to continue normalizing their behavior.

It is wrong to coddle racists, and that includes providing them with your company and your attention when they are not deserving of it.

 

[Noirulus]

If you have friends and family that voted for Trump, talk to them about it and try to understand what their viewpoints are and why they think that way. If their views and reasons aren't due to racism/bigotry then just agree to disagree and drop the topic.

This immediate reaction of dropping any and all acquaintances/family that voted for Trump is dangerous for yourself and will result in the breaking of valuable bonds with others.

 

[UncleSporky]

When I read things like this, I just think none of you posting it know what it's like to have a direct family member call you a faggot and kick you out, never speaking to you again. Or in the case of this thread, when you have your Guess Who's Coming To Dinner moment. Like you think people having trouble with racist and hateful friends or family are referencing simple disagreements that could be resolved if we were just nicer to them.

This is the second time in recent days I've noticed the pattern of "Liu Kang once felt suffering, and right or wrong now desires for others to feel that same suffering as well."

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

If you have friends and family that voted for Trump, talk to them about it and try to understand what their viewpoints are and why they think that way. If their views and reasons aren't due to racism/bigotry then just agree to disagree and drop the topic.

This immediate reaction of dropping any and all acquaintances/family that voted for Trump is dangerous for yourself and will result in the breaking of valuable bonds with others.

If their reasons aren't due to bigotry that's almost worse because it shows that they lack critical thinking in addition to being unfazed by bigotry.

Just because somebody shares genetic material with you doesn't mean their opinions are sacred

 

[Slo]

If your family is racist, to engage with them is to continue normalizing their behavior.

It is wrong to coddle racists, and that includes providing them with your company and your attention when they are not deserving of it.

I disagree with this because it assumes that taking away your attention is enough punishment for other people to force them to change their views.

 

[Sydle]

I now know folks who are laughing and cheering on the hate-based violence and vandalism. Others who say it's God's will and praise the lord. I have absolutely no room in my life for them and I won't waste another second on them.

I truly believe that most people are good and can be reasoned with. There are a small few who apparently are lost causes. They should be isolated to make it clear to them their BS will not be tolerated at all.

 

[fredrancour]

When I read things like this, I just think none of you posting it know what it's like to have a direct family member call you a faggot and kick you out, or when you have a Guess Who's Coming To Dinner moment and they end up never speaking to you again. Like you think people having trouble with racist and hateful friends or family are referencing simple disagreements that could be resolved if we were just nicer to them.

yeah, the disagreements fueling this thread definitely seem to be of the variety of "my relatives are saying cruel things about strangers because they're regurgitating hateful conservative talking points and i'm sick of just silently cringing" less so than enduring firsthand hate.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I disagree with this because it assumes that taking away your attention is enough punishment for other people to force them to change their views.

Are we trying to reason with them and get them to change their minds (ie normalize their views by giving them faux-validity and coddle them) or adequately deal with the presence of racists in our lives?

They are two different things. Like, I'm sure you can try and talk it out with your racist relatives, but if you present them with the disrespect their beliefs earn them you won't get anywhere. If you do respectfully engage with them, you have legitimised them.

 

[UncleSporky]

I disagree with this because it assumes that taking away your attention is enough punishment for other people to force them to change their views.

Either they won't see the lack of attention as punishment and will be as glad to be rid of you as you are them...or they will see it as punishment, and lament that this is the behavior that your brand of beliefs results in.

 

[Lime]

I've noticed that the ones who constantly talk about their racist or otherwise questionable family members and how it's "not worth the hassle" or how they "don't want to cause problems" are usually quick to wag their fingers at others for not wanting to have anything to do with racist family.

My family's cool with a lot of different races in it so I've never had the problem to be honest. Good look to those who deal with this issue in some concrete fashion.

Sorry to repeat the same question as before, but what would you advise to those who are not affected by the bigotry spewed by friends? I.e. as the above article is suggesting, is it high time for white people to do ugly work and reach those with abhorrent beliefs (or perhaps convince the apathetic or moderates)? And when should they/we draw the line?

If your family is racist, to engage with them is to continue normalizing their behavior.

It is wrong to coddle racists, and that includes providing them with your company and your attention when they are not deserving of it.

I see where you are coming from, but what's your opinion about this article: http://feministing.com/2016/11/11/h...doing-the-ugly-work-that-isnt-safe-for-us-to/ ?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This is the second time in recent days I've noticed the pattern of "Liu Kang once felt suffering, and right or wrong now desires for others to feel that same suffering as well."

What suffering am I putting on anyone or referencing about myself?

 

[Slo]

Are we trying to reason with them and get them to change their minds (ie normalize their views by giving them faux-validity and coddle them) or adequately deal with the presence of racists in our lives?

They are two different things.

I'm advocating that we make a conscious effort to break up the echo chamber by not breaking off ties and ending all conversation. People need to get used to hearing foreign opinions from normal people in their daily lives.

 

[BocoDragon]

My hand hovering over the block button on Facebook...

"Do I block this madness to keep my sanity, or does that risk trapping me in a liberal bubble again?"

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Sorry to repeat the same question as before, but what would you advise to those who are not affected by the bigotry spewed by friends? I.e. as the above article is suggesting, is it high time for white people to do ugly work and reach those with abhorrent beliefs (or perhaps convince the apathetic or moderates)? And when should they/we draw the line?



I see where you are coming from, but what's your opinion about this article: http://feministing.com/2016/11/11/h...doing-the-ugly-work-that-isnt-safe-for-us-to/ ?

I think people should go as far as they're comfortable with, but not expect more of others than they're willing to do, disparage those who do not want to deal with bigots, or hold themselves up as paragons because they choose to avoid conflict.

Just acknowledging the fact that while the bigoted people they know may be kind to them, they may be hurting others, would be a good start.