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[Xando]

Germany proposed a new law today to fight hate speech, threatening social media networks like Twitter and Facebook with €50 million fines.

Under the rules proposed, social media companies must clearly explain rules and complaint procedures to users and follow up on each complaint. Blatantly illegal content must be deleted within 24 hours, while other law-breaking content must be taken down or blocked within seven days.

”Facebook and Twitter missed the chance to improve their takedown practices," said Heiko Maas, federal minister for justice and consumer protection. Maas claimed social media networks don't take complaints seriously. ”For companies to take on their responsibility in question of deleting criminal content, we need legal regulations."

Facebook only deleted 39 percent of hateful posts within seven days in January and February. That's worse than the 46 percent of illegal posts that were deleted between July and August last year. Only 33 percent were taken down within 24 hours this year, according to a government-funded study by a group of state agencies, Jugendschutz.net.

Twitter was equally shamed. Maas said the social media company only deleted 1 percent of law-breaking posts within 24 hours.

The companies didn't immediately respond to requests for comment.

The German approach goes a step further than the European Commission wanted to go so far.

As it stands, the e-Commerce Directive guarantees limited responsibility to internet platforms for what others post on their sites as long as they are passive intermediaries. If they are aware of illegal content on their site, they could be held liable for it if it isn't taken down.

http://www.politico.eu/article/germany-unveils-law-with-big-fines-for-hate-speech-on-social-media/


Hopefully this will light a fire under Facebook, Twitter and Google to finally start fighting fake news and hate speech

Definition of hatespeech in germany:

Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement of the masses", "instigation of the people" (the official English translation of the German Criminal Code uses "incitement to hatred"[1][2]), is a concept in German criminal law that refers to incitement to hatred against segments of the population and refers to calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them, including assaults against the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population.[1][2][3]

It is often applied to, though not limited to, trials relating to Holocaust denial in Germany. The criminal code (Strafgesetzbuch) Chapter 7 (Offences against public order), Paragraph 130 (Incitement to hatred) of the Federal Republic of Germany defines when a person is guilty of Volksverhetzung

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

 

[Spiritwalker]

Good. Hopefully more countries will follow.

 

[Captain Smoker]

Fucking Merkel, oppressing my right to share fake news and insulting others.

#putinbest

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Dear people, this is not taking away the freedom of speech. This is a good thing.

 

[Fallout-NL]

On the one hand, I hope this isn't abused to limit free speech. On the other... fuck yeah, we definitely need this kinda thing right now and I'm all for it.

 

[Sinfamy]

So what's considered hate speech in Germany exactly?

 

[Veidt]

Good work Deutschland.

 

[Xando]

So what's considered hate speech in Germany exactly?

Volksverhetzung, in English "incitement of the masses", "instigation of the people" (the official English translation of the German Criminal Code uses "incitement to hatred"[1][2]), is a concept in German criminal law that refers to incitement to hatred against segments of the population and refers to calls for violent or arbitrary measures against them, including assaults against the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously maligning, or defaming segments of the population.[1][2][3]

It is often applied to, though not limited to, trials relating to Holocaust denial in Germany. The criminal code (Strafgesetzbuch) Chapter 7 (Offences against public order), Paragraph 130 (Incitement to hatred) of the Federal Republic of Germany defines when a person is guilty of Volksverhetzung

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

This new law is basically to force social media companies to follow existing german law (which they haven't done properly).

Facebook only deleted 39 percent of hateful posts within seven days in January and February. That's worse than the 46 percent of illegal posts that were deleted between July and August last year. Only 33 percent were taken down within 24 hours this year, according to a government-funded study by a group of state agencies, Jugendschutz.net.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

So what's considered hate speech in Germany exactly?

Telling lies about the holocaust and poems about Turkish dictators.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

Good

 

[hEist]

good.

 

[Captain Smoker]

So what's considered hate speech in Germany exactly?

• Sharing Nazi symbols and other banned symbols
• Denying Holocaust

This is under strict law since decades


What's new is probably every form of "Kill them" "They should be killed" posts.

Or if you tell others to commit crimes, etc.

https://no-hate-speech.de/de/wissen/welche-gesetze-gibt-es-gegen-hate-speech/ (german link)

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I like my country every once in a while

 

[EGM1966]

I'm firmly behind principle of free speech.

I firmly accept it's unrealistic to allow complete freedom of speech in the current state of our society.

Limits are always alarming and need to be carefully applied but they're also sadly required in specific cases to moderate and prevent actual harm to others from the consequences of incitement to violence and hatred.

I do hope it's applied sensibly though.

 

[Trickster]

If done properly, good.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

So what's considered hate speech in Germany exactly?

Mainly this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

Along with obvious matters like belittlement of Nazi crimes, Holocaust denial and stuff like that. Those things were outlawed long ago and Germany is still doing fine in terms of free speech so I welcome this new law.

 

[norinrad]

So what's considered hate speech in Germany exactly?

A good start would be not to insult people based on their believes just because you think you have the freedom to do so. I'm no lawyer though.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Good.

Germany is pretty much the leader of the free world nowadays while the US, UK, Russia and possibly France are on a very dark path.

 

[Mivey]

I'm firmly behind principle of free speech.

I firmly accept it's unrealistic to allow complete freedom of speech in the current state of our society.

Limits are always alarming and need to be carefully applied but they're also sadly required in specific cases to moderate and prevent actual harm to others from the consequences of incitement to violence and hatred.

I do hope it's applied sensibly though.

The only thing this law does is make sure that you can't say shit on online media that you also can't say in public. It's not curtailing free speech in general, just making sure there is no grey area any more. Whether or not hate speech, libel and other stuff should be legal in the first place is wholly different debate, one Germany has already mostly answered with "nope".

 

[SliceSabre]

I wonder how it would work if say on Twitter a US user was using hate speech? Would Germany still go after Twitter or would Twitter fight back in say "Well in that user's country its ok."

The US is significantly a freer country when it comes to free speech than EU countries.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

I wonder how it would work if say on Twitter a US user was using hate speech? Would Germany still go after Twitter or would Twitter fight back in say "Well in that user's country its ok."

Since Germany does have no legal ground on american soil, germany can do nothing against us users

 

[HotHamBoy]

I wonder how it would work if say on Twitter a US user was using hate speech? Would Germany still go after Twitter or would Twitter fight back in say "Well in that user's country its ok."

The US is significantly a freer country when it comes to free speech than EU countries.

Twitter and Facebook are privately owned and operated networks. Free speech doesn't apply.

Americans don't really understand what free speech means and entitles you to.

 

[Xando]

I wonder how it would work if say on Twitter a US user was using hate speech? Would Germany still go after Twitter or would Twitter fight back in say "Well in that user's country its ok."

The US is significantly a freer country when it comes to free speech than EU countries.

Someone in a different country can be prosecuted if he/she damage german public peace or violate the rights of german citizens

Offences, that are committed in accordance with § 130 of the Criminal Code abroad, whether by German nationals or foreigners, can be pursued as a domestic crime, when they so act, as if they had been committed within the country, affecting the public peace in Germany and violate the human dignity of German citizens. It is sufficient, for example, that criminal content on the Internet, for example in the form of a HTML page, can be accessed from Germany.[5] Hence, for example, the jurisdiction of German courts can be applied for offences of sedition (Volksverhetzungsdelikte) committed abroad. Such an example, was the conviction of the Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel by the District Court of Mannheim in February 2007, who was convicted of inciting propaganda, that he had published from the US and Canada on the Internet.

Pretty unlikely to happen though

And with Trump and his minions we saw/see what unlimited free speech can do

 

[Giant Panda]

As long as they are careful that it doesn't become a slippery slope, then this is great. Threats and such should not be okay on online.

 

[ReadingRambo]

Either you believe in free speech or you don't. We have to be able to attack bad ideas, and you can't do that if they aren't out in the open.

 

[SliceSabre]

Someone in a different country can be prosecuted if he/she damage german public peace or violate the rights of german citizens



Pretty unlikely to happen though

And with Trump and his minions we saw/see what unlimited free speech can do

Seems that guy was German in the first place which made him easy pickings.

A regular American citizen would have nothing to fear unless they were in Germany.

 

[EloKa]

Either you believe in free speech or you don't. We have to be able to attack bad ideas, and you can't do that if they aren't out in the open.

so if people (for example) create posts and demand to kill Lockehardt from NeoGAF- as well as providing your personal information like your phyiscal address - then it's fine by your standards?

This law only enables to force fines on companies if they refuse to delete posts like those

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Good.

 

[taoofjord]

I'm very curious to see how it goes. It could certainly end up a slippery slope but personally I hope it works and we see this happening elsewhere in the world.

 

[ReadingRambo]

so if people (for example) create posts and demand to kill Lockehardt from NeoGAF then it's fine by your standards?

I'm talking more about the ability to espouse Nazi ideology or the like. Of course incitements to violence aren't protected in most cases anywhere.

 

[Red Arremer]

Or if you tell others to commit crimes, etc.

Inciting others to commit crimes isn't really hate speech, it's its own category of illegal expression.

 

[oti]

Get'em, Deutschland.

 

[Xando]

Seems that guy was German in the first place which made him easy pickings.

A regular American citizen would have nothing to fear unless they were in Germany.

Technically a regular american citizen could be prosecuted aswell. Highly unlikely though as i said

 

[Hektor]

Meine Freie Rede 🤐🤐🤐

 

[Muffin1611]

Gut so.

 

[Carn82]

"Free speech" isnt "Freedom of consequence". In this case, you`re still allowed to say whatever you want, just know that some things will be punishable by law.

 

[Red Arremer]

The only thing this law does is make sure that you can't say shit on online media that you also can't say in public. It's not curtailing free speech in general, just making sure there is no grey area any more. Whether or not hate speech, libel and other stuff should be legal in the first place is wholly different debate, one Germany has already mostly answered with "nope".

This.
It's not curtailing free speech, it simply is making the internet equal to any other form of expression. Or rather, about as equal as it's possible by going after the companies that aren't removing those posts.

 

[EloKa]

I'm talking more about the ability to espouse Nazi ideology or the like. Of course incitements to violence aren't protected in most cases anywhere.

Most stuff of the Nazi ideology is banned in germany and they are often not "just bad ideas" but way worse. This law is getting enforced to protect people - not to reduce free speech. Calling to kill Jews, spreading Nazi symbols or rallying to kill a specific person aren't just "bad ideas".

 

[MisterFalcon]

This is kind of missing the point where you punish the easily identified company instead of the person doing the hate speech. If I paint a hateful slogan on a wall does the local mayor get fined for not having it cleaned it up within 2 hours ?

 

[El-Suave]

Either you believe in free speech or you don't. We have to be able to attack bad ideas, and you can't do that if they aren't out in the open.

The moment you spread a "bad idea" though it's doing damage by sticking with and encouraging a certain demographic. No well meant counter attack will change those people because they're not willing to accept or even listen to counter positions.

 

[oti]

This is kind of missing the point where you punish the easily identified company instead of the person doing the hate speech. If I paint a hateful slogan on a wall does the local mayor get fined for not having it cleaned it up within 2 hours ?

I'm sure prosecuting hundreds of anonymous Twitter eggs will be efficient.

 

[Carn82]

If I paint a hateful slogan on a wall does the local mayor get fined for not having it cleaned it up within 2 hours ?

Yes. And then the local mayor should force you to pick up the cleaning costs.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

This is kind of missing the point where you punish the easily identified company instead of the person doing the hate speech. If I paint a hateful slogan on a wall does the local mayor get fined for not having it cleaned it up within 2 hours ?

When Facebook now would just not be so super fast when someone posts boobs and banns profils, but when people report people wanting to burn refugees, its not against the guidelines.
Facebook and Twitter dont give a shit removing that stuff. So they are getting a bit more trouble of they dont act. I dont see nothing wrong with this.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Will be interesting to see how this works. The world will be watching- History can be made. We can only hope it pans out in a good way and it will have a positive effect elsewhere!

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

As long as they are careful that it doesn't become a slippery slope, then this is great. Threats and such should not be okay on online.

Germany has basically been using these very same standards for decades.
There were just problems with their enforcement online and this is an attempt to fix that.


If you wrote in a newspaper that "refugees should be shot at the border", or "Auschwitz should be reopened for refugees", you'd be fined for that.
If you wrote the same thing on your Facebook wall, it was unlikely for there to be any consequences.

Now they try to enforce existing laws offline as well as online.

 

[hodgy100]

Either you believe in free speech or you don't. We have to be able to attack bad ideas, and you can't do that if they aren't out in the open.

you are gravely misunderstanding what this ruling is about.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

As long as they are careful that it doesn't become a slippery slope, then this is great. Threats and such should not be okay on online.

I know it seems novel to Americans but hate speech laws have existed in European countries for decades and we have yet to see any slopes slipped on.

This is great news though, the disparity between how open public speech is treated versus online public speech was always insane to me.

Either you believe in free speech or you don't. We have to be able to attack bad ideas, and you can't do that if they aren't out in the open.

1) I think you've misunderstood this situation.

2) Are you American? If so, how do you feel the idea of 'attacking bad ideas' has gone for you thus far?

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Just to give more context, its also not easy to sentence someone for Voksverhetzung. Most likely nobody will get sued for this crime because one posts: "Shot all muslims!".

This said, I have the feeling that this judgment is choosen more often latetly. But its not likely I am following these cases regarding very close, so I can be wrong.

 

[Siegcram]

One of Heikos finer moments.

 

[Sinfamy]

"Free speech" isnt "Freedom of consequence". In this case, you`re still allowed to say whatever you want, just know that some things will be punishable by law.

That's the definition of illegal.
Freedom of consequences is in regards to public perception and private treatment, for example being fired.
If you're punished by law, then it's illegal.