CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Besides Colors, Generations, and the handheld series (which was helped by Dimps), has Sonic Team had a clue in 15 years?
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Sonic the Hedgehog Community Thread |OT3 & Knuckles|
- Thread starter Professor Beef
- Start date
allenpergallon
Member
Yes, they just haven't had much long-form consistency. Lost World was probably the most clueless title they've released in terms of staying consistent both before and after its release, but at the very least it wasn't bad conceptually.
Miles and miles of engineering for the sole purpose ofresurrecting re-energizing Metal Sonic. This is Sonic 4.
I'm glad it wasn't named Sonic 4 (assuming they would have the chance) given the context of revisiting zones/celebrating classic sonic. Mania feels like a very fitting title for what's on the table, and has a similar vibe to Sonic Jam that makes it feel very natural for what it's aiming to do.
And it always feels like long-term numbered revivals are asking to end up disappointing peoples' overblown expectations.
...also Puyo Puyo has been going strong for years that should totally count
Miles and miles of engineering for the sole purpose of
I'm glad it wasn't named Sonic 4 (assuming they would have the chance) given the context of revisiting zones/celebrating classic sonic. Mania feels like a very fitting title for what's on the table, and has a similar vibe to Sonic Jam that makes it feel very natural for what it's aiming to do.
And it always feels like long-term numbered revivals are asking to end up disappointing peoples' overblown expectations.
Tizoc
Member
But Mania isn't being made by Sonic Team.
Neither was 4, it was made by dimps, so sonic team are mostly irrelevant here.
I'm really glad that after 3 failed attempts by dimps to ape classic style (4, 4.2 and generations 3ds), that someone else is being given a shot at this. I can't believe dimps is the same company that managed Sonic advance...
Call me pessimistic.
But uh, from what forces looks, and lost world, like I don't think sonic had a clue during colors or generations. It kinda seems like those games were fortunate flukes, I hope forces proves me wrong... but yeah. It seems like forces , they are making the exact same mistakes they were making in the mid 00's. Again hope i'm wrong, hope forces is the tightest shit ever and everyone gets the thing they want. I do not want them to fail, it just doesn't look so hot
Tizoc
Member
Oh i figured as much, thanks for correcting me.
So I beat the game recently and uh here's my LTT
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1398426
allenpergallon
Member
This is a good point. I generally like the melodies of most stage themes in Ep 1 and 2, but instrumentation is definitely a problem and with Ep 2 stage length really drags down any positives about them.
Like, Sky Fortress act 1 sounds more or less fine on its own, but its the most egregious example of this problem. The melody is a super short loop but the level is a sluggish bastardization of Sky Chase that is more uneventful than your average action stage because hey, Sky Chase was slow-paced too. Surely a short song loop + long swaths of doing nothing gameplay-wise because the stage is half of a boss fight = a good idea.
EDIT: I'm reminded of the Werehog battle theme. Though that was probably worse, because even if it did have variations it was constantly interrupting some of the best songs from the series.
Waddle Dee
Member
LMAO
The nicest thing I can say about Sonic 4 as a whole is that it's playable. It's not a unfinished glitch-fest. Still, it's simply not much fun. Both the physics and the level design do everything in their power to prevent you from having fun. Whether it be the sluggish feeling of controlling Sonic, the numerous boost pads, the homing attack being so stiff, or the weird out of place gimmicky segments that feel like failed concepts from a modern 2D Mario game, the game is constantly shooting itself in the foot.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_CD_Original_Soundtrack_20th_Anniversary_Edition
Just bought this. Hooray!
Just bought this. Hooray!
That's a fantastic description
( though there are other sonic games, that I could say similar things about. Some made by sonic team of japan.)
allenpergallon
Member
I'd say all of them honestly.
They get progressively more refined/less dickish from a gameplay perspective, though they all have certain shortcomings that put them below the Advance games and weaken them as individual packages imo. Either way, Dimps was still putting in some solid work, albeit with a completely different direction.
They get progressively more refined/less dickish from a gameplay perspective, though they all have certain shortcomings that put them below the Advance games and weaken them as individual packages imo. Either way, Dimps was still putting in some solid work, albeit with a completely different direction.
Not sure if you left Chronicles out intentionally but no one's blaming you.
Rush has the best music but the most Dimps level design. Rush Adventure adds a bunch of secret levels and side missions and smooths out the "fuck you kid" parts of the level design, but they wind up feeling kind of samey. Colors DS dials the boost down and mixes the level design up with wisps and red rings.
Waddle Dee
Member
Like others have said, all three of them are worth playing. Rush Adventure is my personal favorite and I think it's vastly underrated/overlooked. The level design is much better than Rush, the environments are pretty unique (Coral Caves is the GOAT!) and sailing gameplay isn't actually bad. It also has, by far, the best collection of bosses in a Sonic game. Boss battles are rarely a strong point in Sonic games but they're all excellent in Rush Adventure.
Worst things I can say about it are the parts where you need to grind a bit for materials and the story being a whole lot of nothing for the most part.
Blaze is easily the best female character in the franchise as well. She's a good polar opposite to Sonic in terms of personality but opens herself up more to the rest of the cast over the course of her debut game.
Probably the best character since Espio or even Knuckles.
Tizoc
Member
Thanks, so rush adventure and colours are the ones appealing most to me, so I'll play those.
Azure Dream
Member
Out of the 3, I'd say Colors DS is the worst. It's not terrible, but there's no second character, and the level designs aren't as fun to me. Heck, sometimes they seem to taunt you for not blindly guessing the right path between multiple for a reward. I remember being separated from one after a drill section by the tiniest wall imaginable, but the game is specifically designed to restrict backtracking.
Also, while Colors Wii got the memo about not making the final boss some lame Doomsday knock-off against someone other than Eggman, Colors DS has a final boss that's exactly that, and super easy to boot.
Also, while Colors Wii got the memo about not making the final boss some lame Doomsday knock-off against someone other than Eggman, Colors DS has a final boss that's exactly that, and super easy to boot.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Rush Adventure is definitely my favorite, but I find the original Rush to be more fun to replay because it has a higher skill ceiling (read: it's more difficult, and more rewarding to practice and get good at)
The original Sonic Rush also just has less good levels
I judge the DS Sonics based on which levels I like to replay, and usually that's:
Sonic Rush
- Leaf Storm Act 1
- Leaf Storm Act 2
- Water Palace Act 1
- Night Carnival Act 1
- Huge Crisis Act 1
Sonic Rush Adventure
- Plant Kingdom Act 1
- Plant Kingdom Act 2
- Machine Labyrinth Act 1
- Machine Labyrinth Act 2
- Coral Caves Act 1
- Coral Caves Act 2
- Haunted Ship Act 1
- Haunted Ship Act 2
- Blizzard Peaks Act 1
Sonic Colors DS
- Tropical Resort Act 1
- Sweet Mountain Act 2
- Aquatic Park Act 2
- Asteroid Coaster Act 1
Colors DS is where Dimps was really losing their touch. Layouts are tight, cluttered, and like the worst parts of Sonic CD, really try to make you stumble on every little thing to force you to slow down and not go so fast -- even though that feels in opposition to what every other part of the game is telling you to do. It's also a remarkably ugly game, with levels that look like they fell out of an obscure 2003 java flip phone game.
The original Sonic Rush also just has less good levels
I judge the DS Sonics based on which levels I like to replay, and usually that's:
Sonic Rush
- Leaf Storm Act 1
- Leaf Storm Act 2
- Water Palace Act 1
- Night Carnival Act 1
- Huge Crisis Act 1
Sonic Rush Adventure
- Plant Kingdom Act 1
- Plant Kingdom Act 2
- Machine Labyrinth Act 1
- Machine Labyrinth Act 2
- Coral Caves Act 1
- Coral Caves Act 2
- Haunted Ship Act 1
- Haunted Ship Act 2
- Blizzard Peaks Act 1
Sonic Colors DS
- Tropical Resort Act 1
- Sweet Mountain Act 2
- Aquatic Park Act 2
- Asteroid Coaster Act 1
Colors DS is where Dimps was really losing their touch. Layouts are tight, cluttered, and like the worst parts of Sonic CD, really try to make you stumble on every little thing to force you to slow down and not go so fast -- even though that feels in opposition to what every other part of the game is telling you to do. It's also a remarkably ugly game, with levels that look like they fell out of an obscure 2003 java flip phone game.
Waddle Dee
Member
Been playing the Crash Bandicoot N Sane Trilogy recently and after 100%ing Crash 1 I now feel bad for ever complaining about anything in Sonic 1. It's a bit of a rough game that doesn't understand it's own strengths but as far as "first entries" in a classic platforming series go, it could have gone far, far worse.
Plus, Sonic 1 on the Genesis was the first video game I ever played so I can't help but love it.
Plus, Sonic 1 on the Genesis was the first video game I ever played so I can't help but love it.
Andrew Korenchkin
Member
Jesus christ, fuck Burning Depths and fuck Chilly Castle. Both levels are bullshit.
Sonic Twitter just put up a sample of the Sonic Forces main theme with vocals
https://twitter.com/sonic_hedgehog/status/882992621039230976
https://twitter.com/sonic_hedgehog/status/882992621039230976
allenpergallon
Member
Burning Depths is like the penultimate final boss of Transformed. It's really fun when you get the hang of it but man can those turns throw you for a loop sometimes. It can be pretty taxing keeping up with it and other people shooting stuff at you, probably more so than Race of AGES honestly.
Chilly Castle is just needlessly dickish. That final turn man....
Professor Beef
Banned
thank god i can come back here for sanity
also yeah, fuck chilly castle's final turn. several years later and I still can't nail it perfectly
also yeah, fuck chilly castle's final turn. several years later and I still can't nail it perfectly
BlazeHedgehog
Member
It looks surprisingly uninspired. What they've shown of Park Avenue looks too short, too simple, and I really hate how talkative everybody is. What they've shown is a 90 second level where like 75 seconds are the supporting cast flapping their gums.
I'm probably just projecting tbh but literally everything we've seen so far just looks so cynical and soulless. Mania only makes it especially noticeable.
Ok, I look up impressions for classic and Steve the non descript animal , gameplay I wanted to know. News flash, not great, just about what expected, I didn't even bother with reading the impressions of modern because I thought. " eh this Is probably the same, the rest of this seems... low effort in terms of actual mechanics, them just doing the same thing over seems low effort. And works out because that shit was boss, whisps or no"
So a day or so ago, I decide, well ok maybe I should look up what the folks are saying about the modern gameplay because with wisps there must be some changes, i'm not fond of the damn things but lets see whats up. And I read some and hear some, and its not great, now i'm a bit discourged. But then I go " ok these are the same people like metro , where izuka a grown man had to explain to another adult who I guess thought they were being cute and cheeky what different different demographics are. So manybe for one reason or another, they have the wrong impression." I'm thinking like maybe this is like a fighting game where folks are claiming some stuff is broken and OP before the game comes out. Let me find some impressions of some people I trust more.
So I do, similar impressions, not that great, but they go in depth. And say its too easy, one person specifically sites sonic generations have options in terms of where you could go rewards and such for good platforming, the usual sonic, "high road mid road low road" stuff. And then i go " wat" , confused I look up more and then see it described by some who enjoyed generations that the game runs basically on auto pilot and even with wisps any sense of challenge was gone. And in many cases any sense of control was gone, and that this was prevalent in all 3 gameplay styles.
So I go to the final plan, ask my boy who was at e3, if he had an appointment to play it. He told me the same thing.
Now I'm confused and even more scared for this game, than even before, because they might have actually fucked up the only part of this gameplay trio that had some guarante of quality.Now the game isn't out, the game could get more difficult and better, but I don't really have any hope sega will do that. Because all the information they put out there, and the reaction they get from it seems like a company who thought they were doing the " right" thing and when people pointed out they didn't want this, or that, or this feels bad ect, they seemed caught of guard.
I hope its good, but them possibly fucking up the good part, really makes me upset because I was one of the people talking about " all you have to do is this but with other characters and that hypothetical game would be fantastic" in reference to generations's 3d sections, and its more apparent that ever that how colors and generations came out might have been fun flukes. It seems like sega doesn't understand why people like any aspect of their games, from gameplay to characters, to visual themes. They don't seem to understand why people like those things and have thrown them into this game , and used them rather poorly and have been critcized by not just the usual " fuck sonic" people but the fanbase from trailer one.
I hope i'm wrong, I hope this game i dope , but ... eh.
I'm still trying to figure out who this game is for
So a day or so ago, I decide, well ok maybe I should look up what the folks are saying about the modern gameplay because with wisps there must be some changes, i'm not fond of the damn things but lets see whats up. And I read some and hear some, and its not great, now i'm a bit discourged. But then I go " ok these are the same people like metro , where izuka a grown man had to explain to another adult who I guess thought they were being cute and cheeky what different different demographics are. So manybe for one reason or another, they have the wrong impression." I'm thinking like maybe this is like a fighting game where folks are claiming some stuff is broken and OP before the game comes out. Let me find some impressions of some people I trust more.
So I do, similar impressions, not that great, but they go in depth. And say its too easy, one person specifically sites sonic generations have options in terms of where you could go rewards and such for good platforming, the usual sonic, "high road mid road low road" stuff. And then i go " wat" , confused I look up more and then see it described by some who enjoyed generations that the game runs basically on auto pilot and even with wisps any sense of challenge was gone. And in many cases any sense of control was gone, and that this was prevalent in all 3 gameplay styles.
So I go to the final plan, ask my boy who was at e3, if he had an appointment to play it. He told me the same thing.
Now I'm confused and even more scared for this game, than even before, because they might have actually fucked up the only part of this gameplay trio that had some guarante of quality.Now the game isn't out, the game could get more difficult and better, but I don't really have any hope sega will do that. Because all the information they put out there, and the reaction they get from it seems like a company who thought they were doing the " right" thing and when people pointed out they didn't want this, or that, or this feels bad ect, they seemed caught of guard.
I hope its good, but them possibly fucking up the good part, really makes me upset because I was one of the people talking about " all you have to do is this but with other characters and that hypothetical game would be fantastic" in reference to generations's 3d sections, and its more apparent that ever that how colors and generations came out might have been fun flukes. It seems like sega doesn't understand why people like any aspect of their games, from gameplay to characters, to visual themes. They don't seem to understand why people like those things and have thrown them into this game , and used them rather poorly and have been critcized by not just the usual " fuck sonic" people but the fanbase from trailer one.
I hope i'm wrong, I hope this game i dope , but ... eh.
I'm still trying to figure out who this game is for
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
I didn't like Lost World, but at least that felt like something the designers actually wanted to make. Forces feels like something they're doing out of obligation. Fuck, even the music is uninspired, and this is a Sonic game! *Paging Beef with the infamous song*
Mania on the other hand is fucking hype!
Mania on the other hand is fucking hype!
Mania's composer uploaded a 16-bit remix of Mirage Saloon just for fun.
Azure Dream
Member
My problem, especially in the Green Hill footage, is how much those pale gray generic enemies just blend into the background.
Here they're in shadow from the platform above, and it's worse, especially in motion.
_/¯
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Still playing through Sonic 1 - 3 and CD and I just want to give a few observations.
One is that Sonic teams that created these games clearly understood Sonic's physics and handling. Even in places like Wacky Workbench, which would be a fucking nightmare in most modern Sonic games, is more than manageable due to how fluid Sonic's movement and control is. I always feel in control and would honestly put it right up with the feeling of playing a 2D Mario game.
The thing about this observation is that Modern Sonic team is selective about when they seem to understand what worked and what didn't. 3D Sonic gets a lot of flak for it's controls and rightfully so. However, SA 1 and 2 had relatively decent to good control all around. Of course it wasn't perfect, but it was more than good enough to have fun with the speed stages and I never felt it was a drag in the Treasure Hunting stages. The mech shooting stages were where the issues with controls came it, but it wasn't horrible. Sonic Heroes, from what I remember (I haven't played it in about ten years), had sloppier handling and far too much acceleration and top speed for the camera and controls to handle. Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06, and Sonic 4 speak for themselves in how shitty their controls and handling are. But then we get to Sonic Uncolorations trilogy and they have a pretty good handle on how 3D should work and Colors and Generations have a far better handling on how 2D should work. This isn't to say that 2D is perfect: Sonic still feels a bit too stiff, heavy, and rigid for my liking. A place like Wacky Workbench, which arguably was a bit too chaotic for Sonic back when it came out, would still be a nightmare with the current physics. But then we get to Lost World and they once again forget the lessons they learned for the 2D sections (Sonic plummets like a rock sometimes and is fine other times, I never figured out what caused the difference) and 3D also handles much more poorly. And now it looks like Sonic Forces is going to make many of the same mistakes.
So either Sonic Team understands how to get Sonic to handle at what I would call a B to lower B+ level in Colors and Generations and they simply choose to go a different direction or they are like a broken clock being right twice a day. And this is all the more jarring as we have Sonic Mania coming out and is looking like it'll blow Forces out of the water. And it's not made by Sonic Team.
Even the music I've heard from Forces is no where near up to par. The main title theme is really "meh" and from what we heard from places like Green Hill Zone and Park Avenue it's really just kinda... okay? The Sonic Franchise's music is the kind of franchise where even when they made two separate OSTs for CD, it wasn't a case of "One side got a super inferior experience". BOTH OSTS are great! And again, Mania is blowing it out of the water in this regard. Even some of the worst Sonic games like Sonic 06 have good soundtracks.
And of course, the story seems like standard 90's Sonic edge which is always really annoying.
I don't know, I think Sonic Team has simply lost the plot.
One is that Sonic teams that created these games clearly understood Sonic's physics and handling. Even in places like Wacky Workbench, which would be a fucking nightmare in most modern Sonic games, is more than manageable due to how fluid Sonic's movement and control is. I always feel in control and would honestly put it right up with the feeling of playing a 2D Mario game.
The thing about this observation is that Modern Sonic team is selective about when they seem to understand what worked and what didn't. 3D Sonic gets a lot of flak for it's controls and rightfully so. However, SA 1 and 2 had relatively decent to good control all around. Of course it wasn't perfect, but it was more than good enough to have fun with the speed stages and I never felt it was a drag in the Treasure Hunting stages. The mech shooting stages were where the issues with controls came it, but it wasn't horrible. Sonic Heroes, from what I remember (I haven't played it in about ten years), had sloppier handling and far too much acceleration and top speed for the camera and controls to handle. Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 06, and Sonic 4 speak for themselves in how shitty their controls and handling are. But then we get to Sonic Uncolorations trilogy and they have a pretty good handle on how 3D should work and Colors and Generations have a far better handling on how 2D should work. This isn't to say that 2D is perfect: Sonic still feels a bit too stiff, heavy, and rigid for my liking. A place like Wacky Workbench, which arguably was a bit too chaotic for Sonic back when it came out, would still be a nightmare with the current physics. But then we get to Lost World and they once again forget the lessons they learned for the 2D sections (Sonic plummets like a rock sometimes and is fine other times, I never figured out what caused the difference) and 3D also handles much more poorly. And now it looks like Sonic Forces is going to make many of the same mistakes.
So either Sonic Team understands how to get Sonic to handle at what I would call a B to lower B+ level in Colors and Generations and they simply choose to go a different direction or they are like a broken clock being right twice a day. And this is all the more jarring as we have Sonic Mania coming out and is looking like it'll blow Forces out of the water. And it's not made by Sonic Team.
Even the music I've heard from Forces is no where near up to par. The main title theme is really "meh" and from what we heard from places like Green Hill Zone and Park Avenue it's really just kinda... okay? The Sonic Franchise's music is the kind of franchise where even when they made two separate OSTs for CD, it wasn't a case of "One side got a super inferior experience". BOTH OSTS are great! And again, Mania is blowing it out of the water in this regard. Even some of the worst Sonic games like Sonic 06 have good soundtracks.
And of course, the story seems like standard 90's Sonic edge which is always really annoying.
I don't know, I think Sonic Team has simply lost the plot.
Waddle Dee
Member
Eh, I still don't want to judge Forces too much since all we've seen are what are more than likely the first levels in the game. Really basic stuff, obviously. The apparently stiff jump controls for "The Rookie" sounds bad and the characters talking non-stop could get grating (though I've honestly had little problems with that in the past) but most of my complaints are just nitpicky and me simply not being the target demographic for "modern" Sonic games anymore.
That's fine though because Mania is looking close to perfection. Once Mania comes out and I sink dozens of hours into it, then I'll start being more critical towards Forces.
That's fine though because Mania is looking close to perfection. Once Mania comes out and I sink dozens of hours into it, then I'll start being more critical towards Forces.
Definitely not a big fan of the "Fist Bump" song, tho. I actually like most cheesy Sonic theme songs but not this one at the moment.
Azure Dream
Member
The song is way better off without the clunky, strange lyrics. "One last fist bump" seems like a really dumb thing to focus on, too.
Edit: I just watched it again in a lyrics video, prompted by Blaze's Tumblr response, and realized the lyric is "One more last fist bump". "One more last"? As opposed to previous last fist bumps?
Blaze is right, it sounds like lyrics trying to fit into an existing song.
Supaidaman
Member
Kinda of late to the discussion but the thing that annoys me the most on sonic 4 ep2 is the Eggman Boss 3sec loop. And the bosses take forever to beat.
Ugh
Ugh
Waddle Dee
Member
Yeah, I definitely agree with that.
Also, even if I think Blaze is a bit too critical on specific things, his Tumblr is really good. Some very insightful and well worded answers and opinions.
Supaidaman
Member
Should have gotten Senoue to do the vocal tracks
Shadow Hog
Member
Wouldn't surprise me if he did.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
One Last Fist Bump by Hoobastank just reminds me of Sega getting Zebrahead to do His World for Sonic 06, but at least Zebrahead was still somewhat relevant in 05/06 when it was recorded and they were at least somewhat popular in Japan at the time. Hoobastank? Last album they released was five years ago to lukewarm reception. Hell, it would have made more sense for them to have done His World back in Sonic 06 since they went over 2x Platinum with their album just a couple years before in 2003. So maybe someone on Sonic Team just really likes Hoobastank? Cause it can't be a "let's stay relevant with the kids" move.