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Dragon Ball Super |OT7| Please wait for Tien to be cool.

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K

Kelsdesu

Member
Slaythe said:
Because he converts their energy into his own, he probably has an infinite source of energy, but not infinite stamina because his own body is different.

The infinite stamina is a byproduct of 17 and 18's biology. Cell doesn't actually fuse with them, as we saw when he spit out 18. I also assume the energy that was infinite was only 17 + 18, while his own got emptied.
Click to expand...


So he couldnt tap into their energy as a source of fuel for himself? Also when his body got all wrecked and needed to regen why did the androids come out whole?
 
D

dlauv

Member
I don't really see the issue. Cabba was going toe-to-toe with base form Vegeta, and Caulifla is stronger. She's also a prodigy. It only makes sense that they're comparable and she's a lot quicker on the uptake. Remember, their base forms are far beyond what Goku and the others were at their ages. They're parallel aliens from a different universe. I don't see what the issue is in that.

Goku was obviously using kids' gloves too, smirking while she was all "dadadadada."

The SSB vs. Kale was the only questionable thing here. Especially since it's Jiren vs Goku next. They either neglected to explain something, or Toei thought it would be cool to have Kale facetank Blue.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
I'm going on a trip wondering of maybe Onori from Jaco is Gero's brother since he was also an incredible genius and looks like him, and this could be the twins' dad :p .

NgWS5a.jpg


Just_myles said:
That's a stretch. A big one. Cell is proven that he takes the best qualities(focus on the plural) of those he absorbs or shares dna with(he even inherited saiyan thirst for batlle, cmon.).
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Look who's stretching now. Cell doesn't have 17 and 18's dna, he is just compatible with their bodies. He doesn't actually become one with them, since he spits out 18. He can't spit out a Vegeta or Frieza clone, so that's quite a gigantic assumption for you to say these share the same aspects.

There was actually no reason for him to be exhausted.
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Cell's body is not the same as 17 and 18. He can use their powers, but his body is still fully organic. When he regenerated he lost a lot of power. To me he just converted their power into regular brute energy, because he had a huge aura, lightning, could be felt by everyone, etc... while the androids displayed none of that. So it implied he wasn't solely relying on "android energy", or that this energy had been modified through absoprtion/conversion. Cell had to use a lot of power on top of sustaining significant damage from Goku.
Hell maybe Goku damaged one of the androids with that kamehameha ! Thought about that :p ?

For the record I think this unlimited power and stamina is ridiculous. Android power should be limited by their physical durability. Last I checked they were part human.
Click to expand...

I mean, it kind of is. They degrade slowly over time, and when 17 was beaten up he had trouble moving around. Just means he can't tire himself out by going all out or if he doesn't sustain big damage.

Kelsdesu said:
So he couldnt tap into their energy as a source of fuel for himself? Also when his body got all wrecked and needed to regen why did the androids come out whole?
Click to expand...

I think he converted their energy into brute power, which is why everyone could feel his power and not any of the androids'.

Senzu bean is powerful man.

Actually it's funny, let's debate about that.

17 was brought back to life. But if he died when Cell exploded, he would have been revived in Heaven since that's where he "died". But he was revived on earth which implies he died there. So maybe Goku killed him with that kamehameha, but then Cell would have felt the loss of power, and 17 wouldn't have been revived since Goku was the killer.

Which brings the question, when did 17 actually die and how ?
 
FUNKNOWN iXi

FUNKNOWN iXi

Member
Slaythe said:
This is correct. And that's a good analogy for Frieza, Gohan, 17 etc... and the new aliens are like "japanese players !" when you're used to the US scene.

U6 saiyans don't work because they were introduced as weaker and got up there in less than 3 hours. Without anybody training them or beating them to give them any incentive to get that strong, nor would they know how to. And the "maybe they're genius" pill is hard to swallow considering they didn't figure any shit out on their own before that.
Click to expand...
If you learned about wavedashing after years of not knowing what it is, you'll grow faster in a few hours than you ever have if you're already good at that game without it.

Specifically, Cabba hasn't shown himself to be that strong anyway. Kale has the hidden power gimmick. And Caulifla is the naturally gifted 15 year old who comes and wrecks your shit with Luigi when you thought your Fox was hot shit.

I don't think the power jumps are that bad.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
Ok so explain that to me.

SSJ is a multiplier.

You say Cabba = Vegeta in base.

So how is Vegeta trashing Cabba in SSJ ? And not just "he fights better", because he literally stood there and tanked a huge punch, that had 0 effect on him.
 
RocknRola

RocknRola

Member
Sony said:
The answer is fairly easy for anyone that has paid attention to Dragonball Z. The posters above can joke all they want, but they couldn't be more wrong. The difference of power ups between Z and Super is that the Power Ups in Z occured over time and were a result of either effort, deception, desperation or all of them. Per arc:

Saiyan Saga
Raditz anounced to Piccolo that stronger Saiyans were on their way to Earth. Vegeta and Nappa were much stronger than Piccolo and Goku at the time of their fight with Raditz. Vegeta would arrive in a year and in that year, the Z fighters were training to try to be prepared. They weren't, Vegeta and Nappa turned out to be stronger. Only Goku could match Vegeta. His power increase to almost defeat Vegeta came from work and training in otherworld. He even progressed during the fight with Vegeta. Gohan's power potential has been established in the very first Z arc aswel. So his power boost later in the series didn't come out of nowehere. The power boost to defeat Vegeta came from pure effort.

Frieza Saga
The main attraction of the Frieza saga was the enormously powerful Frieza vs Goku. The strongest in the universe at the time. Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin weren't a match for his final form. Goku was also losing against Frieza. His power boost to even be able to fight Frieza came from 2 near death experiences (in the spaceship and when Ginyu stole his body) and training. See my reaction to nightbird's comment below for further analysis. So the power boost to defeat Frieza came form effort (training), deception(Frieza being stronger) and desperation (Krillin's death).

Android Saga
The big baddies were the Androids. Android 19 and 20 were stronger than Frieza was. How did the Z fighter get a power boost from Frieza saga to Android saga? Well, Future Trunks warned the Z fighters about the Androids and they had the time to prepare and train. When the Android's came, 19 and 20 were taken care of relatively easy. Then the deception came: 16,17 and 18, which were much stronger than 19 and 20 and according to Trunks, also stronger than their future counterparts. This deception was incentive for the Z fighters to improve. Piccolo fused with Kami, Vegeta went to the ROSAT with Trunks.

Cell Saga
Cell became stronger because he absorbed 18 and 17. He didn't get rediculously more powerful though, as he admitted Trunks would have defeated him is his USSJ form wasn't so slow. Then Cell announced the Cell games. In order to stand a chance against Cell, the fighters went into the ROSAT. So the power boost to fight Cell came from sheer effort over a long period of time (1 year training in ROSAT). Goku couldn't defeat Cell. Gohan got the power poost to defeat Cell from deception (Goku dying, Trunks being blasted) and desperation (16 dying). This triggered his SS2 transformation, similar to Goku's SS transformation. In total, the Androids were matched and Cell was defeated though sheer effort over time, deception and dedication.

Buu Saga
Majin Buu, who is stronger than Cell, hatched shortly after the Tournament. Piccolo, Vegeta and Goku's power boost at the beginning of this arc/saga came from the fact that since Cell, they've been training for years, putting in effort. So that explains their power boost. It is this saga in which Trunks and Goten got introduced, which seems to be the only thing Fj0823 can cite in favor of Super. And he's wrong, Goten wasn't as strong as Gohan and Trunks had a lot of trouble walking at 100G. A power boost is from X to Y, that moment established his power, it didn't give a boost to it. You might argue that their base strength is too high, but both have been showed training, so there's that: effort. And they were concieved while their father had a high base strength.

Anyways, continuing, Goku's power boost to match Majin Buu was his new SSJ Form which he achieved through years of training (read: effort) in otherwold. Meanwhile, Gohan was training in the Kai's world. Some poeple think believe his power boost came from unlocking his potential by the Grand Kai and his dance. However, he went though a tough training with the Z-Sword. At the end of this training, he was shown to be able to handle the Z-Sword with ease. Goku had a little trouble lifting the Z-Sword. So that's that power boost to Mystic Gohan.

Then there is Super Buu. Super Buu outclassed Vegeta and Goku, which is why they fused. This isn't a power boost per character, but a fusion. That didn't work and that spawned Kid Buu. Vegeta/Goku didn't have a power boost to defeat Kid Buu and the Spirit Bomb that defeated him was aided by the life force of the Earth.

So the power boosts in this arc came from sheer effort (apart form Majin Vegeta, but that wasn't a permanent power boost). Also, every respective step in power boost isnt crazy big. Form X in DBZ allows the good guy to fight the bad guy, but not win. Then the power boost is needed.

And now the difference with the bullshit that is DBS:
Beerus arc:
One second, Beerus is manhandling SS3, the other moment he's a SSG holding his own, though no effort whatsoever. To top this off, his SSG form wore off and Beerus told him that Goku made the SSG power his own. So Goku got a powerboost basically out of nowwhere. To top it off, the magnitude of the power boost he got was bigger than any power boost in DBZ, and probably comparable to the power boost from Goku when he faught Raditz to SS3 Goku. This is where the series shot itself in the foot. Beerus is unfathomaly stronger than any Z foe, and that power is not the base for the rest of Super.

RoFrieza arc
Both Vegeta and Goku achieved SSB Through effort. Frieza went Gold also though effort. However, the magnitute of the power boost, again, from Frieza is an even worse insult, for just 4 months. The BS about this arc is that Frieza seemingly knew how strong he had to get to defeat Goku, which was SSB by the time. How could Frieza even fathom to train to that level, it is monstrously bigger than his strength at the end of the Frieza arc. It's like going form Yamcha to Vegito in 4 mothns. Not a single power jump in either Z (or GT for that matter) comes lose to that.

Champa arc
Cabba turned SSJ though no effort. There was deception and desperation though, as he thought Vegeta would exterminate his family. However, what is really poorly done in DBS and in also in the ToP arc is:

ToP/u]
The U6 Saiyans only get stronger through forms. It's like they say: hey I need to get stronger, time to get a new form! In DBZ, there were power boosts within a form before going to the next. Goku's SS got some power boosts before he went SS2, his SS2 became stronger over time before he became SS3 etc. The U6 saiyans have to growth or development, it's just trigger. Caulifla's SSJ forms came without effort, without deception, without desperation. Same goes for Kale. And to explain why this is utterly stupid, SSJ forms are a multiplyer of base strength. Directly transforming from one form to the other without increasing your strength is actually pretty dumb.

So tthe point is: whoever is Saying that power boosts always have been dumb in Dragonball are simply talking out of their ass. DBS is disgracefully bad in its handling of power boosts.



What on Earth are you talking about? You said yourself that this is the second time Krillin gets killed. The difference is the context. During his fight with Frieza, we see Goku struggle a lot, Frieza was winning. We then get one of the most critical but often forgotten moments in Dragonball history: Goku's Nightmare. While being drowned, he saw what would happen if Frieza were to win, he saw Krillin die, he saw all of his family and loved ones die... The Earth.. all of it. That gave him a power boost to at least fight Frieza for a while again. It wasn't enough, but it was a defining moment. Then, after he thought he had killed Frieza, he reappears and kills Krillin. His nightmare became reality. This is the context in which he became SSJ, out of rage, out of desperation, out of deception.
Click to expand...


Bro, your hate boner for DBS needs to calm down :p

Saiyan Saga

Piccolo & co went from not being able to do jack shit to Raditz to being able kill Raditz's in the form of the Saibamen. Well, except Yamcha because life is pain when you're Yamcha.

Krillin decides to not kill the person who was, in part, responsible for the death of his friends and the reason why he had trained in the first place. Why? Because Goku wanted a better fight! :D

Speaking of Goku, he went from being even weaker than Piccolo to stomping Nappa with one move. Because he trained, running around in a planet with 10x gravity.

Frieza Saga

The literal lord of the mortal Universe whom no one could touch or present a challenge got defeated by someone who, a few months earlier, could barely stand up to pre-Namek Geets. A dude that trained during his space ride and made a ridiculous amount of progress (a la Freeza in DBS) in the week or however long said journey was.

Still the power difference was so great that Freeza only went all out after Goku transformed, the dude was cleaning house with 50% of his power. Also when he transformed his (Goku) stamina magically came back. Which never happens again btw.

Also, Krilling dying in DB didn't cause a transformation. I wonder why.... :D

Android Saga

Random scientist makes Androids STRONGER than any power level he had ever seen, witnessed or heard about on Earth. Even stronger than Freeza, by quite the margin. Not only that, those Androids are more advanced than anything else we've ever seen, even from other Universes. All this to kill a person, that even with the magical power boost gained in the previous saga, didn't have a hope of beating either 17 or 18.

Overkill much?

Also, btw, that legendary transformation that only happens once every 1000 years? Yeah, Geets and his son from the Future now can do it too. Oh and a dude came from the Future. Yeah.

Cell Saga

Afterwards a random creature appears that not only gets stronger by absorbing regular old Humans, but also Androids. Because. Cell then decides to NOT kill everyone right away after reaching his Perfect Form and makes a tournament. Because.

Also, Gohan can become a SSJ now. That's 4 Legendary transformations. Also they have multiple forms now. ALSO, Gohan goes beyond all of the more experienced fighters because "potential". Ends up failing to kill Cell on his own regardless. Potential?

Btw everyone from these two arcs made Freeza, the previous Lord of the Universe, look like a Yamcha. Power scaling, yay! Speaking of, his life is still pain. Literal pain.


Buu Saga

Magical creature that was stronger than everyone and everything from the known mortal Universe was somehow locked in a ball that was controlled by a weakling magician from outer space.

Geets, Goku & Gohan refuse to deal with the situation properly and quickly and let it escalate to the death and destruction of the entire Human population. Geets manages to get a rematch with Goku though. Alas Geets causes Buu to get free.

Said magical creature was in essence Cell 2.0 but even better because it had instant regenaration and had enough raw strength (and the ability to use it) to lay waste to multiple planets (and perhaps galaxies) with ease. On the downside, basically a dumb child with a lot of power.

Also, SSJ3 is now a thing but not really because you need to be dead to make it work. Also Goten and Trunks can now transform into SSJ as well. Also fusions, 2 of them. Both of them ultimately pointless. Also Gohan becomes the strongest again. Also Gohan becomes useless 2 minutes later.

Spirit bomb made with the energy of beings that all put together wouldn't have a chance in hell to even scratch Buu, manages to destroy Buu. Because, logic?

Btw, being Yamcha continues to be suffering.

-------------

See? DBZ was so well put together and not all filled with logical leaps! :O
 
Neko Mimi Mode

Neko Mimi Mode

Member
dlauv said:
The SSB vs. Kale was the only questionable thing here.
Click to expand...

Kale (a few hours after first achieving SSJ) tanking an SSB Kamehameha isn't "questionable", it's an insult to the viewer's intelligence.

She is literally a more whiney, annoying and pointless Broly who exists for no other reason than to illustrate how Toei don't actually care any more.

People on here hate on GT, but it never took a dump on SSJ4 like Super has with Blue and the build up felt infinitely more meaningful too.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
Hix said:
Kale (a few hours after first achieving SSJ) tanking an SSB Kamehameha isn't "questionable", it's an insult to the viewer's intelligence.

She is literally a more whiney, annoying and pointless Broly who exists for no other reason than to illustrate how Toei don't actually care any more.

People on here hate on GT, but it never took a dump on SSJ4 like Super has with Blue and the build up felt infinitely more meaningful too.
Click to expand...

We hate on GT because it took a dump on everything else ;D
 
NeonZ

NeonZ

Member
Hix said:
People on here hate on GT, but it never took a dump on SSJ4 like Super has with Blue and the build up felt infinitely more meaningful too.
Click to expand...

GT never introduced SSJ5 though. The marketing material is making pretty clear we're getting a new form or power up for Goku this arc. And although not a SSJ form, GT completely trashed Super Uub a single arc after he got that power up. The Super 17 Saga basically acted like it didn't exist in the first place, reducing him to Goten and Trunks level for no given reason.
 
D

dlauv

Member
Hix said:
Kale (a few hours after first achieving SSJ) tanking an SSB Kamehameha isn't "questionable", it's an insult to the viewer's intelligence.

She is literally a more whiney, annoying and pointless Broly who exists for no other reason than to illustrate how Toei don't actually care any more.

People on here hate on GT, but it never took a dump on SSJ4 like Super has with Blue and the build up felt infinitely more meaningful too.
Click to expand...

Broly is a Toei creation and so is that entire movie's plot. Like, who cares? Kale is meant to be a twist on Broly, and I think it's fine as that.

I'd be more mad about Blue if it weren't prone to arbitrary power deficiencies in the Zamasu arc. The Super writers clearly underwrite. It's a problem, but a problem I'm used to.
 
U

Undead Fantasy

Member
Slaythe said:
Ok so explain that to me.

SSJ is a multiplier.

You say Cabba = Vegeta in base.

So how is Vegeta trashing Cabba in SSJ ? And not just "he fights better", because he literally stood there and tanked a huge punch, that had 0 effect on him.
Click to expand...

Did you miss the whole beating Vegeta gave him prior to that?
 
E

Espada

Member
RocknRola said:
I do wonder what's the idea with having a couple of fighters still be unknown at this point in time...
Click to expand...

For obvious reasons, to mix things up towards the end. Some might have really nasty tricks, other may be powerful enough to make certain overlooked universes into possible contenders. That uncertainty and mystery is there to keep viewers intrigued.
 
U

Undead Fantasy

Member
Espada said:
For obvious reasons, to mix things up towards the end. Some might have really nasty tricks, other may be powerful enough to make certain overlooked universes into possible contenders. That uncertainty and mystery is there to keep viewers intrigued.
Click to expand...

God, I really hope we get a U6 Namekian.

Should be a nice fight for Piccolo.
 
RocknRola

RocknRola

Member
Espada said:
For obvious reasons, to mix things up towards the end. Some might have really nasty tricks, other may be powerful enough to make certain overlooked universes into possible contenders. That uncertainty and mystery is there to keep viewers intrigued.
Click to expand...

Will it even matter? Unless we're being conned about Jiren being the strongest fighter out there, it just seems kinda pointless to keep them hidden for so long.
 
G

Gokario

Member
Slaythe said:
Ok so explain that to me.

SSJ is a multiplier.

You say Cabba = Vegeta in base.

So how is Vegeta trashing Cabba in SSJ ? And not just "he fights better", because he literally stood there and tanked a huge punch, that had 0 effect on him.
Click to expand...

1) Because shut up.
2) Maybe they retcon the multiplier.
3) A more thought-out answer: Maybe Vegeta and Cabba's base is "5000", but Vegeta could powerup to "+8000", so the 50x multipier does make a big difference.

Or whatever jaja.

We need a bigger version of the elimination pic, or I will keep posting my shitty list that nobody cares. :p
 
E

Espada

Member
Order said:
I'm hoping one of the mystery U6 guys is a Namekian
Click to expand...

Undead Fantasy said:
God, I really hope we get a U6 Namekian.

Should be a nice fight for Piccolo.
Click to expand...

Man, that would be cool as hell to see what U6 Namekian is like.

RocknRola said:
Will it even matter? Unless we're being conned about Jiren being the strongest fighter out there, it just seems kinda pointless to keep them hidden for so long.
Click to expand...

Well, they don't have to be as powerful as Jiren to be threats. They could be people that the other characters we know could fight for some interesting fights. That way we get battles on multiple levels.
 
Neko Mimi Mode

Neko Mimi Mode

Member
dlauv said:
Broly is a Toei creation and so is that entire movie's plot. Like, who cares? Kale is meant to be a twist on Broly, and I think it's fine as that.

I'd be more mad about Blue if it weren't prone to arbitrary power deficiencies in the Zamasu arc. The Super writers clearly underwrite. It's a problem, but a problem I'm used to.
Click to expand...

Broly actually isn't a good character though. He's strong just because and his M.O. is KAKAROT. He's poorly written, but popular for being a badass.

They literally copied said poorly written character, added a shitton of nostalgia throw backs, replaced KAKAROT with SONGOKU, and made him whinier and less appealing.

As bad as that all is, Kale's power leap is worse. I can't think of a parallel in the series or anything that comes even remotely close. From relative weakling to just below SSJ2 Caulifla to SSB Goku/god ki/universe level power in hours. In a series full to the bursting with plot holes and asspulls, this actually manages to stand out as jarring and could perhaps be a bridge too far for some.
 
Auto_aim1

Auto_aim1

MeisaMcCaffrey
Fun to figure out the drink behind each god and angel name. What's Quitela? I see they have included some cocktail drinks as well.
 
D

Diablohead

Member
Slaythe said:
Ok so explain that to me.

SSJ is a multiplier.

You say Cabba = Vegeta in base.

So how is Vegeta trashing Cabba in SSJ ? And not just "he fights better", because he literally stood there and tanked a huge punch, that had 0 effect on him.
Click to expand...

I always see Kaioken as the multiplier, Super Saiyan as an amp.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
LotusHD said:
Oh, wow, it never even occurred to me that the angels/gods' names also have a theme going on lol
Click to expand...

Which made Super Saiyan Rosé pretty brilliant, since not only was that color the exact inverted color of the Super Saiyan Blue one, Rosé is also the name of a wine.

Two birds one stone, implying it's a negative SSblue and god like.
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
Slaythe said:
Ok so explain that to me.

SSJ is a multiplier.

You say Cabba = Vegeta in base.

So how is Vegeta trashing Cabba in SSJ ? And not just "he fights better", because he literally stood there and tanked a huge punch, that had 0 effect on him.
Click to expand...

Vegeta has mastered Super Saiyan, Cabba hadn't, at least not at that time.
 
A

AlimNassor

Banned
Hit is MVP for one reason: he's an assassin not a fighter. He's not gunna fight head on unless he has too. He's gujjnna be the MVP of this tourny because, he's used to hit and run.
 
L

LotusHD

Banned
Slaythe said:
Which made Super Saiyan Rosé pretty brilliant, since not only was that color the exact inverted color of the Super Saiyan Blue one, Rosé is also the name of a wine.

Two birds one stone, implying it's a negative SSblue and god like.
Click to expand...

Ah damn, that's dope lol
 
B

BlazinSkatinAxel

Member
Slaythe said:
Ok so explain that to me.

SSJ is a multiplier.

You say Cabba = Vegeta in base.

So how is Vegeta trashing Cabba in SSJ ? And not just "he fights better", because he literally stood there and tanked a huge punch, that had 0 effect on him.
Click to expand...
Vegeta isn't equal to him any more. He's stronger.
 
B

Blackleg-sanji1

Banned
AlimNassor said:
Hit is MVP for one reason: he's an assassin not a fighter. He's not gunna fight head on unless he has too. He's gujjnna be the MVP of this tourny because, he's used to hit and run.
Click to expand...
But his entire universe is on the line that's like the worst excuse ever. I've seen ppl fight more seriously over a fruit
 
N

NimbusD

Member
I seriously can't get behind any of the new saiyans, it's all too fan-ficish. they just appear and then suddently can go ssj2 just by seeing it or one of them who's had like 2 lines just becomes the 'true form' saiyan that can pretty much overpower blue. I get that so far it seems just to job to Jiren, but fuck, I still hate it.
 
S

Slaythe

Member
NimbusD said:
I seriously can't get behind any of the new saiyans, it's all too fan-ficish. they just appear and then suddently can go ssj2 just by seeing it or one of them who's had like 2 lines just becomes the 'true form' saiyan that can pretty much overpower blue. I get that so far it seems just to job to Jiren, but fuck, I still hate it.
Click to expand...

If we're lucky one of them is getting trashed next week.
 
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