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Speaking of Super Mario 64, how does the game hold up after 18 years?
- Thread starter Afrocious
- Start date
paragonpro
Banned
Camera was my only main gripe, visuals are dated certainly but they convey what they need to, still a blast to play
Toadthemushroom
Member
I can't think of many DS 3D platformers like it, funnily enough!
Toadthemushroom
Member
The levels have *loads* of actual platforming, though. Especially the incredibly abstract ones like Tick Tock clock.
This is a great post explaining why this is the case:
Tomasoares
Member
It definetly has aged, but the mechanics are very solid, to the point that no other 3D plataform compares to it.
Still, the graphics, sound, controls, camera and some design decisions really feel dated. A remix would really help fixing these issues.
For now, I think Spyro or Crash aged better.
Still, the graphics, sound, controls, camera and some design decisions really feel dated. A remix would really help fixing these issues.
For now, I think Spyro or Crash aged better.
James Scott
Banned
Dont think i ever completed it as a kid. Played through it last year 100% and it's great.
Just feels great to play.
They give you so many moves that you never need to use but you can get noticeably good at the game. Just watch speed runners go at it.
They nailed 3D movement on their first try and have been improving since.
Sure, not everything is amazing like the camera being a bit wonky, but it's still real good.
As for Mario 64 vs Banjo, while i prefer Mario's moveset i think Banjo's level design is really solid too. Watched a playthrough of someone casually doing the levels 100% on their first go. Seems like Odyssey's design is more akin to that vs Mario 64.
I think they've both aged better than the competition of its time though I'd love to see something akin to the HD port of Banjo for Mario.
Just feels great to play.
They give you so many moves that you never need to use but you can get noticeably good at the game. Just watch speed runners go at it.
They nailed 3D movement on their first try and have been improving since.
Sure, not everything is amazing like the camera being a bit wonky, but it's still real good.
As for Mario 64 vs Banjo, while i prefer Mario's moveset i think Banjo's level design is really solid too. Watched a playthrough of someone casually doing the levels 100% on their first go. Seems like Odyssey's design is more akin to that vs Mario 64.
I think they've both aged better than the competition of its time though I'd love to see something akin to the HD port of Banjo for Mario.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Yeah, except for the camera (I really hate when it refuses to rotate in a certain direction because something) this game still feels amazing to play.
Smashman45
Member
A childhood favorite, and a classic. Playing it recently it does show signs of age (controls feel a little clunky to me at times, camera controls that fight you blahblahblah), and I definitely think it's been bettered by its successors (sans Sunshine), but it's still plenty fun to play even now.
FreeMufasa
Junior Member
The OG
The OG
Just seeing this makes me think of how much better Galaxy would have been if it just kept most of the movement from 64 and Sunshine instead of throwing it out the window for no reason other than to make the game more accessible to players who are not used to playing 3D Mario.
But they did. The wall kick, long jump, ground pound and triple jump from 64 are still there. Only thing that's missing is the dive and punches - which were replaced by a spin that extended your jump and interacted with enemies and the environment.
Most of that high level play is just a fortunate side effect of more open arena design - as well as 20 or so years of speedrunning.
VendettaRed07
Member
It depresses the fuck out of me to know we are probably never going to get another game like it
No other developer has apparently understood how important the controls were to the experience
I'm excited for Odyssey but just from looking at it I can sort of tell it isn't really the same in terms of control
No other developer has apparently understood how important the controls were to the experience
I'm excited for Odyssey but just from looking at it I can sort of tell it isn't really the same in terms of control
Toadthemushroom
Member
This. As much as I like Pikmin I'd like to see Miyamoto's team take another crack at a platformer that nails that feeling of pure play and discovery. That's what 64 feels like, really. You're thrown into these abstract worlds - paintings - and left to your own devices to figure it all out, while the playfulness of the controls and physics make for an excellent learning curve.
Odyssey has fun moves with its hats and the roll, but its structurally so different that I hope it has replay value. I worry that once we've exhausted its worlds of their Moons that it won't have the same pull that 64 has.
While some of them are still there. All of those moves have been slowed down. Even the jumping feels much more floaty. Mario's default running speed is slow. The only thing that has remained just as good as previously is the long jump. The spin jump is nowhere near as good or useful as it was in Sunshine and is a poor substitute for FLUDD, the triple jump takes longer to complete and so on.
Dont get me wrong the controls are fine but even the dev team have stated numerous times that one of the main goals of the game was to make it as accessible as possible. That unfortunately meant making the controls and mechanics more simple as well. It just makes me wish that if Nintendo ever decides to make a linear 3D Mario again something like Galaxy 3 they do it while keeping the complex movement intact.
High level play like the one in those gifs is not possible in Galaxy.
I agree with the latter - SM64 is more experimental in it's approach, which gives it more allowance to exploit it's mechanics to complete tasks faster and flashier then the developers intended.
By reducing the challenge to make it more accessible for everyone, it means that it takes out the accordance for high level exploits that give it a lasting appeal.
I still prefer polish over potential though, and I like the structured approach of Galaxy vs the open-ended approach of 64.
Don't know about slowness though - I've played both recently and they seem about the same. Only thing that's kind of slow is conducting a spin with a swipe - which requires far more effort then pressing a button.
ComradeZero
Member
Still my favorite Mario. Despite the camera and flying.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I think Galaxy still provides the player plenty of opportunities to use its moves laterally rather than just in individual contexts. Particularly the flip jump, long jump and spin/luma-powered jumps.
There are plenty of times where I replayed stars on Galaxy and Galaxy 2 and ended up making mad shortcuts using these moves that I didn't see the first time round, and they are essential in the purple coin stages.
In the case of utilising the long jump, that usually comes down to the gravity in spherical worlds and higher platforms.
That said, I agree that Mario's moveset is less versatile in the Galaxy games, the physics themselves feel a lot simpler and the loss of an "action" button that lets you dive or kick means you can't string together a whole bunch of moves and maintain a giddy momentum. In 64 that was possible nearly all the time but in Galaxy Mario's movement ironically feels more grounded despite the spherical worlds and gravitational pull present.
There are plenty of times where I replayed stars on Galaxy and Galaxy 2 and ended up making mad shortcuts using these moves that I didn't see the first time round, and they are essential in the purple coin stages.
In the case of utilising the long jump, that usually comes down to the gravity in spherical worlds and higher platforms.
That said, I agree that Mario's moveset is less versatile in the Galaxy games, the physics themselves feel a lot simpler and the loss of an "action" button that lets you dive or kick means you can't string together a whole bunch of moves and maintain a giddy momentum. In 64 that was possible nearly all the time but in Galaxy Mario's movement ironically feels more grounded despite the spherical worlds and gravitational pull present.
I'm waiting on people to start speed-running Yo Noid 2
SonicKnights
Member
Still holds up extremely well. Such a wonderful game.
ResidentDante
Member
One of the best games ever made and it's till fun to play!
dragonyeuw
Member
Game is still a dream to play. I last played it maybe 2 years ago and I still had fun running around the castle in the beginning flipping and yahooing all over the place. I'd love a HD remaster just to touch up the visuals, but controlwise it needs no improvements.
Toadthemushroom
Member
That would be the dream. Needs to play *exactly* like the original game in terms of physics and level design and how everything works and behaves, but with the ability to switch between new and old visuals with the press of a button.
I'm not sure how they would tackle the new visuals though. Problem is how Mario 64 was from a period where 3D graphics design was finding its feet, and a lot of the character designs made for the game are very much stylised in a way that's not consistent with the Mario universe today. Look at Bowser for instance. If there is drawn art done in the Mario 64 style for the characters and worlds (is there? Or is it all CGI?) I'd love to see them recreate that with more modern visuals like what they did with Ocarina 3D.
I thought Mario 64 DS went too far from the original visual design. Part of that is probably due to DS's lack of texture filtering but the new colour palette and textures changed the feel of some levels considerably, while the character designs mimicked a less stylised Mario universe that would crop up in Mario Party.
They sort of already dipped their toes in this idea already;
Seeing a pretty direct translation of Thwomps Fortress over to Galaxy 2 kind of puts into perspective just how poor it looks - too much hard brick and concrete. It'd be good if they could be a little more liberal in how they bring it over - add some more detail and character where nessecary without affecting the shape of the environments.
Toadthemushroom
Member
They sort of already dipped their toes in this idea already;
Seeing a pretty direct translation of Thwomps Fortress over to Galaxy 2 kind of puts into perspective just how poor it looks - too much hard brick and concrete. It'd be good if they could be a little more liberal in how they bring it over - add some more detail and character where nessecary without affecting the shape of the environments.
I'd completely forgotten about that! I'm not sure if that's because it's been seven years since I finished Galaxy 2 (wow...) or whether it says more about what little impact throwback Galaxy had.
I agree that it looks poor and it really shows how Galaxy 2's physics and mechanics were built for a new type of level design.
I guess the problem will improving the fidelity of the visuals in a game like Mario 64 is that the levels were built to hardware limits of the N64, so it'll never look consistent. A bit like how in Twilight Princess HD they improved the texture quality but the flat lighting and low-poly objects stuck out so much more in 1080p than they did at 480p blur-o-vision on an old CRT.
Lynd7
Member
I dunno, I think a newcomer could still enjoy the game quite a bit. The controls are still pretty good, although the older it gets, the rough edges start to show more.
I was playing it a bit a few weeks ago and some sections with the camera and stuff started to irritate me a bit. Mario can sometimes be a bit finicky to move on tight platforms too.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I didn't have a proper appreciation for the game until years after it launched, so this is true. It's not nostalgia.
I think it'd be nostalgia if its level designs and physics/systems were beaten by countless games today but...they haven't been.
It's been an influential game for sure, but there's a lot that still makes it a unique and special game today that other games aren't doing.
Regardless of the bump, I'll chime in here as I happen to have been playing Mario 64 lately.
I was about 16-17 when N64 came out. Having been a huge Mario fan since NES, I was really disappointed with Mario 64 since I first saw it at a Toys R Us kiosk. I still bought it (day -1) and played the shit out of it, but it lost something in the translation to 3D that I had valued in the 2D games.
Despite this, the game has had a lasting power over me similar to that of my favorite games. I actually like it more now than I ever did in the pastespecially when it was first released. So to answer the original question, yes it definitely still holds up (as all truly good games do).
My son, who will be three years old in October, recently expressed an interest in playing the game after I booted it up randomly on our Wii U. He had been able to play a few ipad games in the past, but pretty much just senseless screen swiping. To my mild surprise, movement in Mario 64 came much more easily to him than movement in what I considered simpler 2D games like Kirby. I think the logic of the analog movement just makes sense in a way that moving on a 2D plane does not. Now he wants to play the game (and Mario 3D World) every night.
One thing about Mario 64 on Wii U thoughdespite all the praise for the Wii U Pro Controller, I find that it controls this game pretty much like shit. Trying to aim out of the cannon in the first level is next to impossible. The deadzone of the analog makes the game much less enjoyable. I think the classic controller (or the nunchuck) is better, but my son refuses to use anything but the Pro Controller (he's two, not worth the battle), so I haven't really found an ideal setup.
I can say that, after 20+ years, I am more hyped than ever to play the game. Hopefully they bring it to Switch sooner rather than later, and take the time to give it the port or emulation (or remake) that it deserves.
I was about 16-17 when N64 came out. Having been a huge Mario fan since NES, I was really disappointed with Mario 64 since I first saw it at a Toys R Us kiosk. I still bought it (day -1) and played the shit out of it, but it lost something in the translation to 3D that I had valued in the 2D games.
Despite this, the game has had a lasting power over me similar to that of my favorite games. I actually like it more now than I ever did in the pastespecially when it was first released. So to answer the original question, yes it definitely still holds up (as all truly good games do).
My son, who will be three years old in October, recently expressed an interest in playing the game after I booted it up randomly on our Wii U. He had been able to play a few ipad games in the past, but pretty much just senseless screen swiping. To my mild surprise, movement in Mario 64 came much more easily to him than movement in what I considered simpler 2D games like Kirby. I think the logic of the analog movement just makes sense in a way that moving on a 2D plane does not. Now he wants to play the game (and Mario 3D World) every night.
One thing about Mario 64 on Wii U thoughdespite all the praise for the Wii U Pro Controller, I find that it controls this game pretty much like shit. Trying to aim out of the cannon in the first level is next to impossible. The deadzone of the analog makes the game much less enjoyable. I think the classic controller (or the nunchuck) is better, but my son refuses to use anything but the Pro Controller (he's two, not worth the battle), so I haven't really found an ideal setup.
I can say that, after 20+ years, I am more hyped than ever to play the game. Hopefully they bring it to Switch sooner rather than later, and take the time to give it the port or emulation (or remake) that it deserves.
Toadthemushroom
Member
I love the Goemon 2 icon!
Agreed about the Wii U emulation of Mario 64. It was actually my first time playing the original at full speed in 60hz, which was nice, but the emulation itself isn't great:
-I noticed polygon seams in Tall Tall Mountain which weren't present on Wii VC or on my N64 itself.
-There's noticeable input lag (another GAF user made a video showing this) regardless of display used
-Like you say, the deadzone on the analogue stick is off. This affects other games negatively, from Star Fox 64 (fine-aiming is almost digital-like) to F Zero X (Nintendo apparently patched this one) to 1080 Snowboarding.
Since this game transcends time - visual design aside of course - it really should be available on a modern Nintendo format, developed by an in-house Nintendo team, in a form true to the original. It deserves it.
I'd be up for a 3DS port with the original visuals actually. It would be a good send-off for that system and 3D in general.
Agreed about the Wii U emulation of Mario 64. It was actually my first time playing the original at full speed in 60hz, which was nice, but the emulation itself isn't great:
-I noticed polygon seams in Tall Tall Mountain which weren't present on Wii VC or on my N64 itself.
-There's noticeable input lag (another GAF user made a video showing this) regardless of display used
-Like you say, the deadzone on the analogue stick is off. This affects other games negatively, from Star Fox 64 (fine-aiming is almost digital-like) to F Zero X (Nintendo apparently patched this one) to 1080 Snowboarding.
Since this game transcends time - visual design aside of course - it really should be available on a modern Nintendo format, developed by an in-house Nintendo team, in a form true to the original. It deserves it.
I'd be up for a 3DS port with the original visuals actually. It would be a good send-off for that system and 3D in general.
Lynd7
Member
It's pretty incredible how well Nintendo's N64 games still hold up 20 years later.
I'd say the thing that no one quite managed to achieve outside of Super Mario 64 was having a suite of abilities and jungle gym levels with limitless potential for problem solving.
You can start playing the game and immediately start solving puzzles by following prescribed paths and doing easy hops, then you can kick things up a notch by doing stuff out of order or going off the intended trail, and then eventually work your way to speedrunner level when you can use the environment itself to propel yourself towards goals with wall kicks and dives. And thanks to the games direction, the only thing that stops you improving further isn't artificial limitations by the developers, but the constraints of the game itself.
Though - thinking about it - the one franchise that sort of takes this concept and manages to quantify it is the Tony Hawk Pro-Skater games.
That's a game all about using a small but highly interactive move set and wide environment design to your advantage, and one where there's allowance for starting players all the way to high level play. However, unlike Mario 64, it actually incentive's that kind of high level play through the design of it's objectives and high score driven play.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Yup. EAD in particular was just firing on all cylinders that generation: To go from Mario 64, to Wave Race 64, to Star Fox 64, to Ocarina of Time, to 1080 Snowboarding, to F Zero X, to Animal Forest...the only stinker released during that period was Yoshi's Story.
JensenBeeswax
Member
There's a funny Game Grumps complilation where the dude's opinion noticeably goes from 'one of the greats' to 'this is dogshit'. Mostly due to camera issues in the clock and rainbow levels.
Toadthemushroom
Member
Yeah, the level designs and stant-but-also-cryptic clues for each star are what stand out, the game has confidence in the player to go figure things out and try things out.
You make a good point about THPS games!
daTRUballin
Member
The game itself still holds up fine. The camera, on the other hand, does not.
EDIT:
Let's wait until Odyssey actually comes out before we make assumptions. But I still feel like people will always be more biased towards Nintendo no matter what. Even if Odyssey were to turn out to be as "disappointing" as Yooka Laylee, I'm sure it'd still get a free pass just because it's Nintendo. Playtonic would never get that kind of leeway, and it's actually kind of not fair when you think about it. It was the same exact situation when Rare and Nintendo were releasing games on the N64 back in the day.
And frankly, I kind of don't understand the criticism Banjo Kazooie was getting in this thread these last two pages. Banjo is a COMPLETELY different type of platformer/adventure game. In fact, it isn't even much of a platformer, but that's because it's not meant to be. Rare's N64 platformers focused more on the adventure and exploration aspect rather than the platforming. There's no sense in criticizing those games and comparing them to Mario 64 because they were never meant to be like Mario 64. As a game itself and as an exploration/adventure game, Banjo Kazooie was awesome.
EDIT:
Let's wait until Odyssey actually comes out before we make assumptions. But I still feel like people will always be more biased towards Nintendo no matter what. Even if Odyssey were to turn out to be as "disappointing" as Yooka Laylee, I'm sure it'd still get a free pass just because it's Nintendo. Playtonic would never get that kind of leeway, and it's actually kind of not fair when you think about it. It was the same exact situation when Rare and Nintendo were releasing games on the N64 back in the day.
And frankly, I kind of don't understand the criticism Banjo Kazooie was getting in this thread these last two pages. Banjo is a COMPLETELY different type of platformer/adventure game. In fact, it isn't even much of a platformer, but that's because it's not meant to be. Rare's N64 platformers focused more on the adventure and exploration aspect rather than the platforming. There's no sense in criticizing those games and comparing them to Mario 64 because they were never meant to be like Mario 64. As a game itself and as an exploration/adventure game, Banjo Kazooie was awesome.
I didn't like the game at the time. I don't care for it now. To me it felt like a cross between a tech demo and a cardboard cut out diorama, and fighting the terrible camera feels like a game in itself. I say that as somebody who has loved every other Mario game I have played (including Sunshine).
To be fair though, the controls and physics are indeed faultless and hold up incredibly well. It's worth giving a bash just to appreciate what an important cultural relic it is, even if you don't like it. While I don't like the game, I can respect it for what it is and the important place it holds in gaming history.
To be fair though, the controls and physics are indeed faultless and hold up incredibly well. It's worth giving a bash just to appreciate what an important cultural relic it is, even if you don't like it. While I don't like the game, I can respect it for what it is and the important place it holds in gaming history.
dragonyeuw
Member
For me, just touch up the textures, some AA, a minor redraw of the character models, re-release. As you say, don't touch the controls, the physics etc.... that to me would be a perfect remaster. I don't want it to depart too much from the original aesthetic, or for me it loses a bit of its charm. I want the game to still look like its from that era, just with a modern facelift to make it look appealing on our spanky HD sets.
You're right. Super Mario 64 is a platforming game with adventure game elements and Banjo-Kazooie is an adventure game with platforming elements - they're very similar to one another, but both have different intentions to their design.
But at the core of their design, large hub worlds with multiple objectives is still at the basis of their experience - you go into a large open level, you complete a task to get a token, there's usually more than one task to complete.
The inbetween is where the difference is - Super Mario 64 asks you to use your core set of abilities to solve challenges the majority of the time, which is where people are celebrating it's allowance for experimentation and high level play. Banjo-Kazooie on the other hand usually has objectives tied either to using special abilities or just for paying attention to the environment.
Best example are their final levels - Click Clock Woods and Tick Tock Clock. Both have a similar vertical design, and both have a central gimmick that relates to time - in Mario, it's having obstacles speed up or slow down depending how you enter the level, while in Banjo it's a level that shifts through different seasons, with objectives and obstacles rearranged depending.
Where as climbing up Tick Tock Clock is part of the fun of that game, Click Clock Woods is more in the vain of an adventure game where you go between different seasons to effect one another.
The reason I mention this is that - having replayed both these games recently - returning to Banjo-Kazooie was nowhere near as satisfying as I had already completed these objectives before, whereas with Super Mario 64 there was ground to improve and be more risky which was way more enjoyable.
Different strokes for different folks I guess