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[Estellex]

From what I have been seeing, the quality of rpg games is diminishing. Great RPG games when I was a child included: Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Grandia 1, Suikoden 1,2,5, Legend of Dragoon, Final Fantasy VIII, IX, Mass effect 1,2 and etc. I wonder if it is just a nostalgic factor, but man there were just components in those games that really made them stand out.

 

[Danjin44]

I can’t say agree with you. I absolutely loving the recent JRPG came out last year and this year.

I honestly getting sick of entire “all old games are good and all modern games are crap” argument.

 

[Danjin44]

sorry double post.

 

[GenericUser]

10 yrs ago was 2008. Wasn't ff13 released around that time? I'm confident devs can trump this.

 

[gustave154]

20 years ago no but 10 years ago yes.

 

[Gander]

Nope, I don't know what happened when PSX came out but suddenly devs we never heard of came out of the woodwork to make games and established devs tried all kinds of genres they never tried before. It's never been like that again.

 

[Andyliini]

Considering Xenoblade Chronicles 2 came out last year, and it's already one of my favorite RPG's ever, I'm pretty confident there will be more games in the future to live up tp thpse from 10-20 years ago. Then again, that's just me speaking personally. As far as I know, only JRPG that has found mega success outside of Japan is Final Fantasy. Square has tried with Dragon Quest several times, but it's been hit and miss since then. I hope series like Xenoblade and Dragon Quest would find more success in the future, Xenoblade at least is on a small rise.

 

[Skyn3t]

So, Witcher 3 isn't ultimate RPG masterpiece after all?

 

[Spheyr]

Your rose tinted glasses are making it hard to appreciate the great games that are coming out in current days

 

[Lanrutcon]

There are some pretty solid RPGs these days, and some absolutely fantastic ones that stand out. D:OS, Witcher, Xenoblade, Persona...

The fact that you mentioned FFVIII and ME3 as some of the greats makes me highly uncomfortable. I will now write a 4 page essay on why you are a terrible person, followed by a brief 9 page essay on why my definition of an RPG is the only valid one.

/s

 

[KonradLaw]

I think they already do. Divinity: Original Sin 2 and Witcher 3 easily measure up to the best classic cRPGs. Pillars of Eternity 2 is as good as BG2 and Serpent in the Staglands is easily as good as Darklands was

 

[Makariel]

Great RPG games when I was a child included: Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Grandia 1, Suikoden 1,2,5, Legend of Dragoon, Final Fantasy VIII, IX, Mass effect 1,2 and etc. I wonder if it is just a nostalgic factor, but man there were just components in those games that really made them stand out.

I would pin that down to nostalgia. Even at the time BG 1 & 2 had their issues, like the rather bad stop-start-stop combat system that plagued old bioware games. Look at Divinity: Original Sin 2 on how todays' RPG are just much better in terms of combat systems. I also can't recall what the story of Baldurs Gate 2 was about (sans expansion, which crashed and killed my savegame). I just remember killing a few dragons for... reasons? Or maybe no reason? But then my paladin had sex with a dark elf and Jaheira was angry, even though it just had been a few weeks since her husband died or something? Most I talked about this game with my friends at the time was about the game mechanics and how to best equip the party. Can't remember many discussions on the story, other than some standout bits like the cannibal or getting the castle for Anomen.

In my view Pillars of Eternity can match a lot of these classic RPG in terms of quests and story. I also tried to replay Mass Effect 1 quite recently, just to realise how badly it has aged. The third person shooter and RPG mechanics just don't gel together the way they should and while the story is still fun, I find e.g. quests in the Witcher 3 much more engaging. Many of the ME1 assignments were surprisingly formulaeic in nature, and there was always some chest-high wall to hide behind for the obligatory firefight. And how come there are no issues if I ignore the main questline for a while to do side quests? I thought the galaxy is at risk and every second counts?

I also noticed that in your list of games you missed out quite a few entries of the series, e.g. why no mention of FF I-VII, X-XIII, Mass Effect 3 etc?

There is an argument to be made that at a time where more was open to the interpretation of the player, the games could do "more" with less technological effort. If you look at screenshots of Ultima 4 it looks pretty dire.

But in my mind this didn't matter, since the game was simulating a consistent and believable fantasy world to a degree that I hadn't experienced before. In a modern game you couldn't get away with graphical representation of a game world like that. Every little rock and neatly textured blade of grass has more working hours put into them than the sprites on above screenshot.

 

[Helios]

I wonder if it is just a nostalgic factor, but man there were just components in those games that really made them stand out.

I think nostalgia's definitely part of it but I also think some games are just that good.
I've played Planescape Torment for the first time half a year ago ,so no nostalgia glasses there, and it was amazing. The artstyle, the characters and the overall story. It's all there. And from something as simplistic as your overdone MC amnesia story. The combat is still your typical Infinity Engine but I didn't mind as 80% of the game is reading.
I think we shouldn't lie to ourselves. I know a lot of people want to say that the 90-00s were a golden era for RPGs but truth is there were MANY bland RPGs back then too. I think the industry is still capable of giving us classics just like they were in 00s even if it's not by the same developer (I'm looking at you Bioware)

 

[GeekyDad]

So, Witcher 3 isn't ultimate RPG masterpiece after all?

Good example, and I'll throw Demon's Souls in the pot too.

The DS had a great library, and that's not too long ago. Even 3DS has some really good ones. Maybe you're looking in the wrong places for them, TC.

 

[shark sandwich]

In the 90s, JRPGs were really taking video game storytelling to a new level. Since then, it’s mostly been safe shounen weeaboo stuff.

I don’t think they’ll ever be as good because hardly anybody is even trying. Konami, Capcom, and Namco aren’t even making JRPGs anymore. Squaresoft went from cranking out 1-2 kickass JRPGs per year to taking 6-10 years to execute.

So yeah it’s kind of depressing. The golden age is over.

 

[Sakura]

JRPGs I don't think so. They just don't seem to be interested in making those kinds of games any more/they don't sell enough to get a decent budget.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

I think a big part of that wave sort of 1997-2001 was a sweet spot in production quality versus production time and cost. Even lower production 2.5D or 3D games felt they had perhaps a higher relative (publishing) quality to medium-to-high production games -- basically also how there was a huge way of 3D platformers after SM64. Not every game had great gameplay quality but there was a barrier of entry to having a game that looked like a decent 3D game that was lower. Not alike all the sprite-based JRPGs on the 16bit generation.

Now the spectrum is so wide that I think it makes it hard to have the same quantity of decent JRPGs that at least have relatively decent presentation. You're either distinctly feel like an indie title, a lower budget title, or a higher sort of AAA title. Is why you don't see huge waves of Lufias and Suikodens and Wild ARMs and BOFs in the same way.

I would think that modern 3D production values will eventually also hit a sort of diminishing returns point where even smaller budget games are easily producing realistic games. I would imagine it could be a ways off, however, and come with more the development of future engines but also future tools/assets that drastically reduce the barrier of entry -- so smaller and medium JRPG or CRPG devs can more easily create games that look closer in quality to AAA titles, and a sort of new wave of Lufias, Suikodens, Icewind Dales, and DAOCs and AOs.

VR is another factor for me, and in particular for online RPGs, I think. Sooner or later, though it may be later, I think we'll have another WoW esque phenomenon and it'll whoever first nail and truly makes accessible not just the virtual reality visual element but also the haptic feedback.

 

[KevinKeene]

1) Old rpgs aren't THAT much better than modern ones.

2) The reason they often feature a more immersive, deeper atmosphere is that they aren't full political agenda (wrpgs) and moe/fan-service shit (jrps).

 

[Vawn]

Can they be as good or better than those games? Of course.

Can they be as good or better than how you remember them from when you were a kid? Probably not.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I sure enjoy them better now than I did then.

 

[Makariel]

2) The reason they often feature a more immersive, deeper atmosphere is that they aren't full political agenda (wrpgs) and moe/fan-service shit (jrps).

So you think Witcher 3 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance are full of a political agenda? What agenda might that be?

 

[cireza]

Maybe that these RPGs you listed are not that great. You love them because you grew with them, but they are not that special. I played some of them, so I know what I am talking about.

I think that games like FF XV or Valkyria Chronicles are definitely up there, and they also embrace current age, rather than being stuck in old-school mechanics and game-design. Lost Odyssey is also up there, but is a modern old-school RPG, if this makes any sense. Tokyo Mirage Sessions as well.

 

[Bboy AJ]

If Octopath Traveler came out in the 90s, it would be part of your nostalgic post. These games are much more rare today, though. Absolutely agree.

 

[Nosgotham]

I mean I think we are already there. Xenoblade 2, octopath traveller, ys viii .

 

[klosos]

Well games are product of our time tho , My fave game of all time is Baldurs Gate 1 & 2 ( Baldurs gate tutu ftw) However if i made someone play it who just got into games i wouldn't expect them to like it.

Obviously visuals will be better in the future , and maybe game play , however i don't believe character/ Companion depth , story depth or world building will be better in the future.

why i hear you ask ? well now and in the future everything is becoming fully voiced acted which holds back real character development and interactions because studios will be held back by there budgets.I like Mass effect trilogy , i liked some companions Garrus , Tali , Thane a few more but how much character development did the companions have in that trilogy , think about it not that much because they had to be full voiced.

Now take Baldurs gate 1&2 and take Viconia Devir ( great char btw maybe my fave female char of all time ) ark she starts off using you as protection basically and over two games her loyalty to the group conflicts with her Drow heritage. it really gives the character real development and depth.

thats my two cents anyway

 

[Ensoul]

RPG were my favorite games back when the SNES, Genesis and PSX were popular. The games I liked, Chrono trigger, early FF games, Phantasy star and Grandia were of course. JRPG. Games like the witcher and Skyrim are great RPG as well.

I do miss the days of the RPG with the overhead view and turned based battles but I think unless it is an indy game those elements have gone away for good.

 

[NahaNago]

I kinda think that for PS1 jrpg's that it is the low quality graphics that really boost the games charm. I'm going to have to say probably not. I got the Digimon world game I wanted but was pretty disappointed and the FF7 remake is just weird. The last tales game I liked was Tales of Vesperia and that got me to buy the next few but they got more and more disappointing as time went by. Legend of Dragoon would look ridiculous if remade. Currently working on FF15 and Octopath.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

Hard to say, the success of mobiles and WRPGs with DUDEBRO elements on them seems to put a change on the strategy and target audience of traditional RPG makers.

 

[jshackles]

I'll echo what everyone else is saying: there are masterpieces getting released now like Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Octopath Traveler, The Witcher 3, etc so I feel like we're already there.

This argument will always be a bit flawed though: even 10 years ago, there were hundreds of games being released every year - and you're looking through the cream of the crop and trying to compare them with the hundreds (thousands?) of games that are getting released every year now and that might be an unfair comparison. There were less games released 20 years ago - but only out of necessity of the quality of titles being really high to begin with. Then when you factor in nostalgia, most modern games might seem lackluster by comparison.

The trick is to find the really good games (there are several great suggestions in this thread) and dive in! 10 years from now, you might be asking whether we'll ever see anything as good as Xenoblade 2 ever again.

 

[Montblanc]

I can't say I agree with that sentiment. There are still lots of great (J)RPGs out there as long as you know where to look.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Here's the big difference: the RPGs you're remembering were all big-budget AAA releases during their time. Unless you're talking about obscure stuff like the 7th Saga, Druaga, Makai Kingdom, or Brain Lord which I'm pretty certain you aren't.

Today's equivalents would be Persona 5, Witcher 3, Xenoblade Chronicles 2, Ni No Kuni 2, Diablo 3, Skyrim, and then smaller-budget stuff like Divinity: Original Sin, Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, Disgaea, I Am Setsuna, Octopath, and Mario & Luigi series. That's not even including the vast smattering of indie RPGs.

So yeah, I think the RPG genre is doing just fine as long as you keep it in perspective. Thankfully, you can play retro throwbacks to those old styles and play the newer stuff.

 

[DeliciousDoc]

You`ve picked some interesting choices in your highlights OP. if you consider a convoluted mess like ff8 better than any modern games I`m not sure what you are looking for in games.

I remember using a gameshark to boost my stats so I could finish the game after giving up on it. The game wouldn't let me off the hook. All monsters level scaled to my 255 stats. Combat rounds were super short, yard trash had like 100 000hp but damage cap was still 9999. When level scaling became a fad I was triggered hard.

 

[_Justinian_]

Persona 5 would like to have a word with you.

 

[autoduelist]

Im currently playing ni no kuni 2. Its terrific, and feels like a Natural Evolution for level 5. It's got base building somewhat reminiscent of dark cloud, citizen collecting , Army battle mode, and more.

Smt games also seem on point.

Western rpgs are generally improving in some ways, but are simplified in others.

 

[Magusx]

Nah...kinda lost faith after FFXIII and FFXV

 

[Shouta]

The quality of RPGs isn't any worse now than it was in the past. There are tons of great games now and a pretty solid selection across platforms.

The window dressing has changed though and we as players have as well. If you really enjoyed the aesthetics of yesteryear, I can kind of understand.

 

[bati]

Yes and no. I'm playing Kingdom Come: Deliverance right now and it has been blowing me away every step of the way. On the other hand, I doubt anything will ever match the heights of Baldur's Gate 2 (made a thread last year that explains what makes it so great), or when it comes to immersive sims, Deus Ex (original) and System Shock 2. There are games that managed to copy the elements of the old classics almost 1:1 and still miss that edge that makes them truly special. But still, this is comparing 9.8/10 games vs 10/10 games, so as an rpg fan I'm very happy with what we got in the last ~5 years. Indie sector in particular has been on a roll, games like UnderRail and Age of Decadence are truly special (and yet overlooked), and then there's InXile with Wasteland 2 (DC version is pretty amazing) and Obsidian with Pillars of Eternity games, not to mention Larian with Divinity: Original Sin (2). And let's not forget Logic Arts and their two Expeditions (Conquistador and Viking) games.

The future for rpg players looks bright.

 

[Bakkus]

The quality of RPGs isn't any worse now than it was in the past. There are tons of great games now and a pretty solid selection across platforms.

You really think so? I want to see you then compare the best of the 16-32 bit gen to the best now.

 

[Makariel]

You really think so? I want to see you then compare the best of the 16-32 bit gen to the best now.

I don't think the 16 or 32 bit gen were the peak of video games.

I'll take demons / dark souls over anything 16/32 bit has to offer, but that's just personal preference.

 

[B_Signal]

I think, with all games I guess but possibly rpgs especially as some age so well, it's increasingly difficult to make a lasting impression. There's so many moving parts, you need to nail the story, characters, possibly find a unique hook, make the combat good. If I think back to the last few years, there's a lot of rpgs I've liked, but they're all flawed in ways that mean I won't revere them as much as something like Dragon Quest 5 or Grandia. Stuff like Stellar Glow, SMT4, Persona 4 and 5, they're all great games with problems.

The World Ends With You and Witcher 3 are 'modern' classics for me, but the rerelease of TWEWY might show up that actually it sags too much in the middle. The Witcher 3 might just eventually be done better elsewhere, although I doubt we'll see a richer gameworld too often

 

[Bakkus]

I don't think the 16 or 32 bit gen were the peak of video games.

I'll take demons / dark souls over anything 16/32 bit has to offer, but that's just personal preference.

I'll admit i've yet to play Souls games, but those are just one. What has happened to all the memorable stories, good pacing, colorful interesting characters which those two gen's rpgs were so famous for? The DS was probably the last system to feature lots of these types of games.

 

[Silvawuff]

This isn't about just nostalgia, these games we experienced in the past were a time and a place. We were different people back then, dealing with complex things. They were a support and welcome escape during a difficult time of life for likely any person you'll meet. By that token, today's games will serve as the classics for today's generation filling in that awkward gap in life.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

You really think so? I want to see you then compare the best of the 16-32 bit gen to the best now.

Setting aside preferences and the like, the Nintendo DS by itself can easily "compare" to that era: SMT: Devil Survivor, SMT: Strange Journey, Mario & Luigi series, Knights in the Nightmare, Radiant Historia, Rune Factory series, Etrian Odyssey series, Puzzle Quest, Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes, Infinite Space, TWEWY, Izuna series... and of course there are a significant number of ports/remakes from that era.

 

[magnumpy]

Bethesda has really pulled to the front of the pack with Elder Scrolls And Fallout etc.

 

[Hotel Security]

No, RPGs will never be what they were in the SNES and PS1 era. At that time that was easily the most popular genre...it's just a niche one now. Many reasons:

-RPGs were really the only place to get deep plot. Now all genres have this.
-RPGs were the only way to get geeky D&D stuff like stats and armor and such. Now all genres have this.
-Storylines in other genres tackle a myriad of subjects. RPGs, on the other hand, feel like they've trotted out the same plots since the 90s. Yes, there's RPGs that buck this trend but too many keep using the same tropes.
-Can only have the same type of game so many times before it gets old. Other genres have kept fresh and innovated...the only way RPGs have innovated is to basically stop being an RPG by becoming an action game. But it's always half-assed action that wouldn't fly in a real action game.
-The fans of RPGs have gotten older and the same old childish RPG tropes just get old. Can only have an amnesiac party member so many times before you just roll your eyes to it.

So, yes, there will always be a place for RPGs but, no, the heyday is over. There was a time when RPGs were the most creative, impressive and innovative games out there but all the other genres have caught up.

 

[Shouta]

You really think so? I want to see you then compare the best of the 16-32 bit gen to the best now.

If there's a preference in style to factor in, yeah I could understand liking 5th Generation and earlier RPGs but if that's not a factor, I don't think there's a significant gap. There's easily a bunch of titles I'd choose for my favorites list on both sides of that line. I'd probably say there were more from the 6th generation of consoles on thanks to the PS2, DS, and PSP, in fact.

 

[Makariel]

What has happened to all the memorable stories, good pacing, colorful interesting characters which those two gen's rpgs were so famous for?

hm... I don't know, I've been trying to replay some old RPGs some months ago and was quite shocked how my memories playing and my perception today differ. To the point that I stopped re-visiting old games since they don't compare well to my memories of said games. Hence I'm probably the wrong person to ask this

 

[Vawn]

hm... I don't know, I've been trying to replay some old RPGs some months ago and was quite shocked how my memories playing and my perception today differ. To the point that I stopped re-visiting old games since they don't compare well to my memories of said games. Hence I'm probably the wrong person to ask this

Exactly. As someone who recently replayed a bunch of old SNES and PS1 classic jrpgs, these stories are not the quality narratives you remember from your childhood.

The games are still enjoyable and the fantastic soundtracks can still create emotion, but the actual storylines and dialogue are hardly things that would be considered great storytelling.

 

[Myths]

Probably not, I treat those games as having their own technological limitations, standards, and expectations for their time. The circumstances and factors aren't going to always be the same down the road.

 

[SonicSleuth]

From what I have been seeing, the quality of rpg games is diminishing. Great RPG games when I was a child included: Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, Grandia 1, Suikoden 1,2,5, Legend of Dragoon, Final Fantasy VIII, IX, Mass effect 1,2 and etc. I wonder if it is just a nostalgic factor, but man there were just components in those games that really made them stand out.

It's nostalgia. I grew up with Pool of Radiance and Dungeon Master and the like and hated the JRPGs that came after.

Games are better now. Your view on them has changed.