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[Afro Republican]

(Sales from 3DO's Business Wire Press Releases August and October 1996)

Another sales Flashback thread, this time with the 3DO Interactive Multiplayer. The 3DO only sold a couple million units, however had more software titles available than the N64. Let's take a look at what the people who owned the 3DO brought the most.

Here are the Top 21 best selling 3DO games (that I can find numbers for) below:

• GEX (Crystal Dynamics) - 525,000
• FIFA International Soccer (Electronic Arts) - 409,000
• Crash N' Burn (Crystal Dynamics) - 355,000
• Super Street Fighter II Turbo (Panasonic) - 313,000

Platinum titles (These titles are games listed by 3DO that sold 250,000 and over but don't specify the exact sales)

1. Road Rash (Electronic Arts) - >250,000
2. Return Fire (Prolific Publishing) - >250,000
3. Need For Speed (Electronic Arts) - >250,000
4. ShockWave (Electronic Arts) - >250,000
5. Myst (Panasonic) - >250,000
6. Slam N' Jam 95 (Crystal Dynamics) - >250,000

Gold Titles (These titles are games listed by 3DO that sold 100,000 and over but don't specify the exact sales)

1. Killing Time (Studio 3DO) - >100,000
2. Po'ed (Any Channel) - >100,000
3. Foes of Ali (Electronic Arts) - >100,000
4. Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels (Electronic Arts) - >100,000
5. Primal Rage (Time Warner) - >100,000
6. Blade Force (Studio 3DO) - >100,000
7. ShockWave 2 (Electronic Arts) - >100,000
8. Wing Commander 3 (Origin Systems) - >100,000
9. Star Fighter (Studio 3DO) - >100,000
10. Samurai Showdown (Crystal Dynamics) - >100,000
11. Pebble Beach Golf Links (Crystal Dynamics) - >100,000

BONUS, top selling 3DO games in Japan from Media Create:

Here are the top 10 best selling Japanese 3DO games from Media Create:

1. D (Warp) -<73,000
2. Policenauts (Demo Pilot Disk) (Konami) - >68,000
3. Theme Park (Electronic Arts) - >33,600
4. Policenauts (Full game)(Konami) ->33,000
5. Lucienne's Quest (Micro Cabin) -26,784
6. Sailor Moon S (BanDai) - 19,075
7. Sotsugyou Graduation Final (Panasonic) - 18,794
8. Samurai Showdown (Crystal Dynamics) - 15,440
9. Star Wars: Rebel Assault (LucasArts) - 12,195
10. StarBlade (Namco) - 9,964

 

[captainraincoat]

Such an underrated console..shame it didn’t have the extensive support sega/Nintendo did at the time the need for speed and road rash were by standout titles.

 

[Afro Republican]

Such an underrated console..shame it didn’t have the extensive support sega/Nintendo did at the time the need for speed and road rash were by standout titles.

Well 3DO had support. It just needed more mega hits. The top 4 are good and the Platinum hits are good to, but they needed a lot more of them.

 

[Futaleufu]

Not bad at all for a console that got support for less than 4 years

 

[captainraincoat]

Well 3DO had support. It just needed more mega hits. The top 4 are good and the Platinum hits are good to, but they needed a lot more of them.

The price of thing over in aus also rivaled a neo geo home console ..just over a grand in 1994 money

 

[Solo Act]

To this day I'm the only person I IRL know that owned a 3DO. I had a good selection of games in this list. Stand outs for me personally were Slam N Jam 95, Gex, Need for Speed, and Wing Commander III.

Wing Commander III in particular was just the best thing I had ever seen. I couldn't get over how great the story of that game was with the live-action acting (I was 12ish). I've never replayed it because I know it wouldn't hold up, but it has a special place in my memory. I can partially attribute my affection for the Mass Effect series to Wing Commander III. I'm not sure if there are many similarities beyond the space setting, but it felt like there were similarities!

 

[Vlaphor]

3DO was such a damn good system. I loved it anyway, though the idea to to have several different manufacturers make the system and the 3DO company get all the money from the sales was a stupid idea.

 

[Pallas]

Good system, very underrated but it just shows you that pricing really matters a lot. The console was too ahead if it’s time.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

3DO was better than Nintendo 64, Sega Saturn and Sony PlayStation in terms of specs and capabilities but $700 at launch made it dead on arrival. I managed to get one for $400. I bought Road Rash, Need For Speed, Guardian War and Slam N Jam. All four were great games and if only the console would have been $300-$400 at launch, it might have had a future. Oh well.

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

I bought Road Rash, Need For Speed

You have the nerve to push the envelope, that's what it takes.

 

[dark10x]

3DO was better than Nintendo 64, Sega Saturn and Sony PlayStation in terms of specs and capabilities but $700 at launch made it dead on arrival. I managed to get one for $400. I bought Road Rash, Need For Speed, Guardian War and Slam N Jam. All four were great games and if only the console would have been $300-$400 at launch, it might have had a future. Oh well.

It was most certainly not better. Not even close. It was hamstrung by its very slow CPU and inability to draw bitmapped graphics at high-speed, at the very least. It’s a console that can barely run Gex (20-30fps compared to the 60fps Saturn/PS1 versions). Most of its 3D games run at obscenely low frame-rates. Killing Time is single digits all the time. Games like Road Rash putter along at sub-20fps while Saturn and PS1 deliver twice the frame-rate. Every game that was ported to other platforms runs better elsewhere.

One of the only 60fps games on 3DO is Street Fighter 2 but they sacrificed the parallax backgrounds to get there.

The hardware was interesting for 1993 but it was well behind the consoles that would follow.

 

[Afro Republican]

It was most certainly not better. Not even close. It was hamstrung by its very slow CPU and inability to draw bitmapped graphics at high-speed, at the very least. It’s a console that can barely run Gex (20-30fps compared to the 60fps Saturn/PS1 versions). Most of its 3D games run at obscenely low frame-rates. Killing Time is single digits all the time. Games like Road Rash putter along at sub-20fps while Saturn and PS1 deliver twice the frame-rate. Every game that was ported to other platforms runs better elsewhere.

You're giving the PSX (and especially Saturn) way too much credit here. The first 2 years of PSX games were mostly able to run on 3DO at the same frame rates, heck early PSX had a lot of issues running games at good frame rates, and 3Do multiplats would usually loo better, and if there was texture advantage on the PSX the games would still look worse because 3DO drew polygons without half the wrapping and other problems the pSX had. The games that would look beyond the 3DO usually involved using hardware tricks like Crash 1 and so on. Until end of 97, early 98 that's when PSX games were more consistently better than the 3DO and even smaller cash grab devs could take advantage of the new tools.

The Saturn never really go this treatment. Saturns would by the end of its NA run get games that would run better than 3DO, however would have bad image quality and have massive pop-in. Gex 3DO running at 30fps was due to the tools CD had at the time as other 2D games on the 3D (though not all) ran at 60fps.

Now where they both more powerful than the 3DO? Yes, but for a period of time that was questionable, and when it started becoming more so a truth it was inconsistent. 3DO needed to hit $299 one year earlier then it did, because 3DO was touting that against Sega but Sony ended up entering at that price and that ended up backfiring on them. For that generation the 3DO was more than capable enough to run most of everyones favorite games. Especially the big sellers.

 

[Afro Republican]

3DO was such a damn good system. I loved it anyway, though the idea to to have several different manufacturers make the system and the 3DO company get all the money from the sales was a stupid idea.

Well not for 3DO it wasn't, they would get paid for basically doing nothing. But that ended up collapsing things in the end, one of the reasons 3DO abandoned the M2 and 3DO was because of the Sony price war they couldn't remotely keep up unless they wanted to continue losing massive amounts of money (LG dropped their to $199 thinking that would give it advantage over panasonic, but was not sustainable and decided to discontinue the LG 3DO. )

 

[Chiggs]

Killing Time and PO'ed represent!

 

[dark10x]

The Saturn never really go this treatment. Saturns would by the end of its NA run get games that would run better than 3DO, however would have bad image quality and have massive pop-in. Gex 3DO running at 30fps was due to the tools CD had at the time as other 2D games on the 3D (though not all) ran at 60fps.

Which 3DO games are 60fps? Street Fighter is though with compromises. Johnny Bazookatone (or whatever it’s called) tries to hit 60 but only gets there maybe 10% of the time (locked 60 on others, though). Are there any others?

I’m not sure I agree.

Look at the PS1 launch titles. You have 30fps Ridge Racer. Is there any 3DO racer that looks anywhere close while running at a comparable frame-rate? Rayman is a beautiful 60fps platformer - haven’t found even one of those on 3DO.

How about The Raiden Project? Basically perfect arcade conversion - nothing comparable on 3DO in the 2D space. Total Esclipse Turbo was a port from 3DO and the frame-rate is significantly higher.

It only accelerated from there. There’s no evidence on the platform that it could come close to comparing.

The first 2 years of PSX games were mostly able to run on 3DO at the same frame rates, heck early PSX had a lot of issues running games at good frame rates,

Any examples? Every single port that I’ve tested which appeared on both runs at least 50% faster on PS1 it not more. PO’ed, Road Rash, NFS, Total Esclipse, Offworld Interceptor, Gex, etc

3DO versions of games like Wing Commander 3 also relied on sprites for enemies rather than polygons.

All of this is based on extensive comparisons I’ve been working on this year. I’ve sampled all of these games and more back to back. I’m using using one of the Japanese 3DOs with the native 240p switch (since modding it in requires you to toggle on boot). So my experiences are very recent. It’s a neat system but it’s very slow. Many 3D games are below 10fps. The CPU is a huge bottleneck.

 

[Afro Republican]

Any examples? Every single port that I’ve tested which appeared on both runs at least 50% faster on PS1 it not more. PO’ed, Road Rash, NFS, Total Esclipse, Offworld Interceptor, Gex, etc

3DO versions of games like Wing Commander 3 also relied on sprites for enemies rather than polygons.

Are you getting Ridge Racer Evolution mixed up with RIdge Racer? Because original RR did not have a solid FPS.

Your lack of familiarity with it's rather large library is likely to blame here as the 3DO has many 2D titles running at 60fps.

Also you're wrong about WC3. 3DO has polygonal enemies, heck some elements from the 3DO version are missing in the PS1 version (though the PSX version is a bit more enhanced in some areas) plenty of comparison sites to look at.

My point was, however, that pretty much most major selling PSX games before late 98, the 3DO was powerful enough to be able to run most of those games. This goes double for the Saturn. It took quite some time before games would become consistently ahead of 3DO titles, as the early years of the PSX had devs still tying to figure it out. BY the time that changed the DC was on the horizon. SO I wouldn't say that the 3DO was "way' behind as you imply.

 

[dark10x]

Are you getting Ridge Racer Evolution mixed up with RIdge Racer? Because original RR did not have a solid FPS.

Your lack of familiarity with it's rather large library is likely to blame here as the 3DO has many 2D titles running at 60fps.

Also you're wrong about WC3. 3DO has polygonal enemies, heck some elements from the 3DO version are missing in the PS1 version (though the PSX version is a bit more enhanced in some areas) plenty of comparison sites to look at.

My point was, however, that pretty much most major selling PSX games before late 98, the 3DO was powerful enough to be able to run most of those games. This goes double for the Saturn. It took quite some time before games would become consistently ahead of 3DO titles, as the early years of the PSX had devs still tying to figure it out. BY the time that changed the DC was on the horizon. SO I wouldn't say that the 3DO was "way' behind as you imply.

Name those 60fps titles. I’ve played the vast majority of the library this year and Ridge Racer 1 (which is solid). What are those 60fps titles?

I recently installed a 3DO USB drive and have tested basically the entire library in search of 60fps. I’d love to know which games I’m missing because I’ve searched hard.

I can run all of this through our frame-rate tools BTW. So I can confirm it. I’m basing everything on lots of very recent experience with the system.

 

[Afro Republican]

Name those 60fps titles. I’ve played the vast majority of the library this year and Ridge Racer 1

Firstly tell me how many games is "majority of the library" and again RIdge Racer 1 did not run solid, the game ran like crap, they released an apology game for a reason. If you're using an emulator that may be why you think this.

 

[dark10x]

Firstly tell me how many games is "majority of the library" and again RIdge Racer 1 did not run solid, the game ran like crap, they released an apology game for a reason. If you're using an emulator that may be why you think this.

Err, I don’t emulate. Are you not familiar with the stuff I do then? That’s totally fine, if not, but I never play retro games via emulation. I can load it up later on real PS1 hardware with my original long box copy. Where’s this apology from Namco? If I’m wrong I’ll happily apologize!

I have the entire library thanks to the Hyperspin project (I do own about 20 3DO games but all my FZ-1 optical drives are acting up thus I switched to the USB solution). I don’t know the exact number that I’ve played but it’s been a lot.

So, again, 60fps games. I genuinely want to know what I’m missing as I’ve been looking for exactly that. I own two 3DOs and have spent a lot of time and energy on the system. I like 3DO. So, please, share those titles with me. I’ll load them up on my 3DO straight away.

Edit - my boss ran a frame-rate analysis on Ridge Racer years ago. This was on real hardware. Our results don’t lie.

 

[Afro Republican]

Err, I don’t emulate. Are you not familiar with the stuff I do then? That’s totally fine, if not, but I never play retro games via emulation. I can load it up later on real PS1 hardware with my original long box copy. Where’s this apology from Namco? If I’m wrong I’ll happily apologize!

.

Ridge Racer Revolution was an apology game for RR1 original on the PSX. That's what I meant. (because the port was poor and runs like shit)

Also, as for the 3DO library, I'm curious because most everywhere doesn't have a complete 3DO list, most stop around 200-250 games when there's much more than that on the 3DO so usually I try to find out how many games a person is missing.

It may have a lot more games than I'm expecting but I have a feeling that there are numerous 3DO games missing fro whatever collection you have access to. Let me see if I can find the old complete list.

 

[dark10x]

Ridge Racer Revolution was an apology game for RR1 original on the PSX. That's what I meant. (because the port was poor and runs like shit)

Also, as for the 3DO library, I'm curious because most everywhere doesn't have a complete 3DO list, most stop around 200-250 games when there's much more than that on the 3DO so usually I try to find out how many games a person is missing.

It may have a lot more games than I'm expecting but I have a feeling that there are numerous 3DO games missing fro whatever collection you have access to. Let me see if I can find the old complete list.

The Ridge Racer frame-rate test shows a locked 30, though. I have no idea what you’re thinking of.

But yeah, let me know if there is some obscure 60fps game out there. As far as I can tell, there are basically less than five 60fps titles on 3DO. If you can help me locate others that would be great.

 

[Afro Republican]

The Ridge Racer frame-rate test shows a locked 30, though. I have no idea what you’re thinking of.

But yeah, let me know if there is some obscure 60fps game out there. As far as I can tell, there are basically less than five 60fps titles on 3DO. If you can help me locate others that would be great.

I mean old reviews used to get on RR1 on slowdown so It may have been a lauch version thing.

But back to the 60fs-

You mean 2D titles or both 2D and 3D? And what games do you already have?

 

[Kasumi70]

You're giving the PSX (and especially Saturn) way too much credit here. The first 2 years of PSX games were mostly able to run on 3DO at the same frame rates, heck early PSX had a lot of issues running games at good frame rates, and 3Do multiplats would usually loo better, and if there was texture advantage on the PSX the games would still look worse because 3DO drew polygons without half the wrapping and other problems the pSX had. The games that would look beyond the 3DO usually involved using hardware tricks like Crash 1 and so on. Until end of 97, early 98 that's when PSX games were more consistently better than the 3DO and even smaller cash grab devs could take advantage of the new tools.

The Saturn never really go this treatment. Saturns would by the end of its NA run get games that would run better than 3DO, however would have bad image quality and have massive pop-in. Gex 3DO running at 30fps was due to the tools CD had at the time as other 2D games on the 3D (though not all) ran at 60fps.

Now where they both more powerful than the 3DO? Yes, but for a period of time that was questionable, and when it started becoming more so a truth it was inconsistent. 3DO needed to hit $299 one year earlier then it did, because 3DO was touting that against Sega but Sony ended up entering at that price and that ended up backfiring on them. For that generation the 3DO was more than capable enough to run most of everyones favorite games. Especially the big sellers.

dark1x know what he talking about PSX and Saturn better system. look at how 3DO ran Doom on their system.

 

[dark10x]

I mean old reviews used to get on RR1 on slowdown so It may have been a lauch version thing.

But back to the 60fs-

You mean 2D titles or both 2D and 3D? And what games do you already have?

I can tell you tomorrow. Sitting on a flight now. I just mean 60 in any title, though. I just want some 60fps games. Any will do!

 

[Afro Republican]

dark1x know what he talking about PSX and Saturn better system. look at how 3DO ran Doom on their system.

Doom on the 3DO is bad not because of the hardware but because it was supposed to be an enhanced edition than ended up being rushed and wasn't optimized for the system. Space Hulk and Iron Angle run better than Doom on 3DO.

 

[Alexios]

Man you're way pushy, dark provides evidence and knowledge and you just keep roasting him denying all of it. How's Ridge Racer not solid 30fps? It's right there in the video!

Name the many 60fps games instead of ask him to list the whole library which he just said he has access to himself and I'm sure he'll humor you and take a look.

 

[Afro Republican]

, 60fps games. .

I'll try to find more once I get home, however from here are some games I believe may be 60fps from what I can remember:

Striker World Cup Special
Rush N' Fire
Crayon Shin Chan
Eye of Typhoon*

30fps 3D since you mentioned that as well.:

Scramble Cobra
Stellar 7
Iron Angel of the Apocolypse: The Return

(Also of notice is that despite launching like 5-6 years later, PSX soccer kid is notably worse than he 3DO version. However, I don't remember the game feeling 60fps, but maybe you can double check that.)

 

[Afro Republican]

Man you're way pushy, dark provides evidence and knowledge and you just keep roasting him denying all of it. How's Ridge Racer not solid 30fps? It's right there in the video!

Name the many 60fps games instead of ask him to list the whole library which he just said he has access to himself and I'm sure he'll humor you and take a look.

I'm not being pushy at all, in fact, you posted after I already asked what games he got that he saw were 60fps so I can see, when I get home, if there are other games I can find. you seem to be oddly aggressive here.

Also video or not, early reviews tag the frame rate,s that's not really deniable. And Namco put out Revolution as a way to make up for the poor reception of the port. So what i'm thinking is maybe later shipments fixed the frame rate (but not the other issues) because I don't think some of those early reviewers were lying,. Either that, or they got review copies that were worse than the final release. It's happened before.

I'm not saying his video was false, which seems to be what you're implying.

 

[Alexios]

The game is shown at 30fps so clearly nobody can continue proclaiming there are frame rate issues with it. Except you. It's right there. I don't see evidence of Revolution being an apology but like you say people may have thought there are other issues with the game, the frame rate as shown is just fine when playing it so they'd have no reason to apologize for the frame rate if the launch version already had them fixed even if we assume some reviewers played earlier versions. Maybe reviewers at the time wanted it to be 60fps like the arcade version (and later bonus disc), I wouldn't know, the game was still 30.

 

[Afro Republican]

Maybe reviewers at the time wanted it to be 60fps like the arcade version (and later bonus disc), I wouldn't know, the game was still 30.

No, they were complaining. about slowdown and dips, but like I said it could be either early shipments or review copies. This wouldn't be the first time it happened. But anyway, that's a different issue.

Or in some cases, the opposite, the 3DO racer, Auto Bahn Tokio, in demos, ran at a solid 30fps. However when the full game came out not only was the sound quality less clean (for some reason) but the game ran worse than Wacky Races. Not sure what the heck happened there. I remember my friend having an import demo disc and the arcade like intro and the races were all moving crazy good. Weird how the full game turned out to be a seizure inducing shaky mess.

 

[dark10x]

No, they were complaining. about slowdown and dips, but like I said it could be either early shipments or review copies. This wouldn't be the first time it happened. But anyway, that's a different issue.

Or in some cases, the opposite, the 3DO racer, Auto Bahn Tokio, in demos, ran at a solid 30fps. However when the full game came out not only was the sound quality less clean (for some reason) but the game ran worse than Wacky Races. Not sure what the heck happened there. I remember my friend having an import demo disc and the arcade like intro and the races were all moving crazy good. Weird how the full game turned out to be a seizure inducing shaky mess.

I hate to say it, but your information is just way off base. Which review are you reading (could you dig them up)? Honestly, the fact is, I know a lot more about this stuff than any of the reviewers would have back in the day. I also have the tools to demonstrate this.

Both the original Japanese launch version from 1994 and the American launch version in 1995 are locked 30fps experiences. There are no performance drops. A Western review copy wouldn't have issues since the game would have been out for a year at that point anyways. Ridge is 30fps locked. IF there are reviews complaining about frame-rates, they are wrong. Period. No version of Ridge Racer on PS1 including the 1994 original exhibits problems with performance.

I'll try to find more once I get home, however from here are some games I believe may be 60fps from what I can remember:

Striker World Cup Special
Rush N' Fire
Crayon Shin Chan
Eye of Typhoon*

30fps 3D since you mentioned that as well.:

Scramble Cobra
Stellar 7
Iron Angel of the Apocolypse: The Return

(Also of notice is that despite launching like 5-6 years later, PSX soccer kid is notably worse than he 3DO version. However, I don't remember the game feeling 60fps, but maybe you can double check that.)

I have 132 3DO games on my system right now and I've tested every one of them over the course of this year. I just tested the ones you mentioned this morning, however.

Eye of Typhoon is 20fps with slowdown rather than 60. It does not run smoothly. It's similar to Crystal's Samurai Showdown port in that regard. So it's another 2D game with a bad frame-rate.

Striker World Cup Special is 30fps with slowdown - but the pause menu (when it zooms in and out) is actually 60. So I guess a 60fps pause menu animation is something. The game isn't 60, though.

I need to find Rush N' Fire and Crayon Shin Chan - I could see Shin Chan being 60fps since it's just a Puyo Puyo clone with no scrolling.

My list of 60fps 3DO games includes Street Fighter 2 and Soccer Kid right now. There may be one or two others I'm blanking on. I'll try to check Rush N' Fire and Shin Chan when possible. Soccer Kid is weird because the PS1 version came out MUCH later - it's not technically worse at all, they simply changed the artwork. It's more colorful on PS1 - on 3DO, the areas below the background were often black while the PS1 version uses a color gradient instead. It is a feat that they pulled off 60fps on 3DO, though, since it's so rare. Street Fighter is also very impressive but, again, it's missing the parallax background layers - it only has the line scrolled floor. Still a nice version, though.

If you know of any other games that might be 60fps, let me know and I'll test them. We can get to the bottom of this.

As for the 30fps 3D games...

Scramble Cobra is 20fps. It looks nice but it's not 30.

Stellar 7 is 30fps with slowdown when enemies appear on screen. So it's reasonable but not entirely stable.

Iron Angel does seem to be mostly stable 30fps.

In comparison there are more than 200 PS1 games that run at 60 frames per second (including 2D and 3D) but there appears to be less than five on 3DO.

I agree that PS1 came into its own after 98 but the first years of games are all universally smoother than 3DO games. Nearly every 2D game is 60fps and lots of 60fps 3D games were released as well during that period.

I will say that 3DO was HEAVILY limited by the very low CPU clockspeed. It's 12Mhz, I believe. There is a 3DO emulator available that allows you to overclock the virtual CPU up to 30Mhz and it solves most of the issues - games like Doom start running smoothly at that clock speed. I've long hoped for an overclock mod on 3DO but I'm not sure it's possible.

 

[s_mirage]

There's one thing to really pay attention too when it comes to 3DO to Playstation ports: graphic quality. The Playstation ports usually took hits to texture and/or sprite resolution and colour depth. Space Hulk is particularly egregious as not only were the sprites downgraded, but the smoothly animated scaling effect of the circular map/command screen that overlays the display was replaced with a square map with no nice scaling effect. It no longer overlays the 3D display either, and instead has a fuzzy 2D background to kind of fake the appearance.

No argument about the performance though. As much as I love the 3DO, its raw performance was worse than the Playstation or Saturn, and it seemed to struggle with 2D more than you might expect. I seem to recall a complaint from a developer (maybe in Edge magazine) that it wasn't all that good at throwing lots of sprites and backgrounds around.

 

[Norse]

Madden was great until you found the one unstoppable play that you could score on every time you tried it. Ruined it.

 

[Afro Republican]

I need to find Rush N' Fire and Crayon Shin Chan - I could see Shin Chan being 60fps since it's just a Puyo Puyo clone with no scrolling.

My list of 60fps 3DO games includes Street Fighter 2 and Soccer Kid right now. There may be one or two others I'm blanking on. I'll try to check Rush N' Fire and Shin Chan when possible. Soccer Kid is weird because the PS1 version came out MUCH later - it's not technically worse at all, they simply changed the artwork. It's more colorful on PS1 - on 3DO, the areas below the background were often black while the PS1 version uses a color gradient instead. It is a feat that they pulled off 60fps on 3DO, though, since it's so rare. Street Fighter is also very impressive but, again, it's missing the parallax background layers - it only has the line scrolled floor. Still a nice version, though.

If you know of any other games that might be 60fps, let me know and I'll test them. We can get to the bottom of this.

As for the 30fps 3D games...

Stellar 7 is 30fps with slowdown when enemies appear on screen. So it's reasonable but not entirely stable.

Iron Angel does seem to be mostly stable 30fps.

Well, the 200 games thing is a little misleading since a lot of those games are later in its life or shmups. The PSX has a lot of shmups which are generally easy to get 60fps (see Atari Jaguar) but the 3DO from it's over 400 game library I can find, does not have one 2D shmup. Granted 3DO was more interested in 3D and shmups are a rather niche genre even today.

I don't know if you did the first or second Iron Angle (I was mentioned the second one) but they both seem to be quite smooth for 3D games on the 3DO. I figured it was a stable 30 but wanted to be sure and you seem to have confirmed it (well for one of them).

As for soccer kid the 3DO version is cleaner from what I noticed. And the character sprite seems worse. But yeah, both run at 60fps and seem to be the same performance wise.

But I'll look through the list and see if I can find more games for you to check out. Lucky we both aren't using GoldStars because then this might be much harder.

 

[dark10x]

Well, the 200 games thing is a little misleading since a lot of those games are later in its life or shmups. The PSX has a lot of shmups which are generally easy to get 60fps (see Atari Jaguar) but the 3DO from it's over 400 game library I can find, does not have one 2D shmup. Granted 3DO was more interested in 3D and shmups are a rather niche genre even today.

I don't think it's fair to say that 2D shoot-em-ups aren't demanding. I don't believe the 3DO could handle something like RayForce at 60fps, for instance. It's not misleading to say 200 when the 3DO can barely deliver 2D games at 30fps let alone 60. There's just no evidence that it can do it - the move to a framebuffer versus the scanline rasterization of older consoles made it more difficult to hit those higher frame-rates but you had some additional flexibility.

The Jaguar certainly didn't handle them well either, if we're honest. Raiden runs at 30fps on Jag with seriously reduced visual quality while the PS1 port of Raiden is full 60fps while matching the arcade original visually. Xenon 2 is like 15fps while the port of Total Carnage is mostly 20fps (pseudo-shooter). Defender 2000, from Jeff Minter no less, is just 30fps in the 2000 mode (which is all 2D).

The only 60fps shoot-em-up on the Jag that I found is Trevor McFur which is simply hideous to behold and very simplistic rendering wise (could easily be done on any system of that era). I'm more fresh on the Jag than 3DO, though, since I played and captured 60 games for it over the past few months in preparation for a project. I was limited to actual carts, though, so there may be a 2D shooter that I didn't have - can you think of any? The Jag has more 60fps games than 3DO for sure but not nearly as many as it should (at least for 2D games). It does have Rayman, though, which the 3DO cannot handle (something the French programmer of the game has told us directly since they did look at bringing the game to 3DO before going with the Jag).

Soccer Kid wouldn't be cleaner since they are both the same exact resolution. If you're using a 3DO with the 240p switch, though, they are both sharp. Most 3DOs are just 480i, though, and that looks like garbage since you're basically upscaling at that point.

Iron Angel 2 is the one I've looked at and, yeah, it's quite smooth for a 3DO game. It's ~30fps with some dips but nothing too bad.

Back to the PS1 60fps list - keep in mind that at least 75 of those games are 3D. It has a lot of 60fps 3D games including ones you wouldn't expect. It's true that many are fighting games but there's more variety than that.

 

[Afro Republican]

I don't think it's fair to say that 2D shoot-em-ups aren't demanding. I don't believe the 3DO could handle something like RayForce at 60fps, for instance. It's not misleading to say 200 when the 3DO can barely deliver 2D games at 30fps let alone 60. There's just no evidence that it can do it - the move to a framebuffer versus the scanline rasterization of older consoles made it more difficult to hit those higher frame-rates but you had some additional flexibility.

The Jaguar certainly didn't handle them well either, if we're honest. Raiden runs at 30fps on Jag with seriously reduced visual quality while the PS1 port of Raiden is full 60fps while matching the arcade original visually. Xenon 2 is like 15fps while the port of Total Carnage is mostly 20fps (pseudo-shooter). Defender 2000, from Jeff Minter no less, is just 30fps in the 2000 mode (which is all 2D).

The only 60fps shoot-em-up on the Jag that I found is Trevor McFur which is simply hideous to behold and very simplistic rendering wise (could easily be done on any system of that era). I'm more fresh on the Jag than 3DO, though, since I played and captured 60 games for it over the past few months in preparation for a project. I was limited to actual carts, though, so there may be a 2D shooter that I didn't have - can you think of any? The Jag has more 60fps games than 3DO for sure but not nearly as many as it should (at least for 2D games). It does have Rayman, though, which the 3DO cannot handle (something the French programmer of the game has told us directly since they did look at bringing the game to 3DO before going with the Jag).

Soccer Kid wouldn't be cleaner since they are both the same exact resolution. If you're using a 3DO with the 240p switch, though, they are both sharp. Most 3DOs are just 480i, though, and that looks like garbage since you're basically upscaling at that point.

Iron Angel 2 is the one I've looked at and, yeah, it's quite smooth for a 3DO game. It's ~30fps with some dips but nothing too bad.

Back to the PS1 60fps list - keep in mind that at least 75 of those games are 3D. It has a lot of 60fps 3D games including ones you wouldn't expect. It's true that many are fighting games but there's more variety than that.

Well most of the 2D shmups on the PSX are very simplized or 2D sprites. A lot of them wouldn't take too much effort to run. Games like G Darius, yes that would be a problem on the 3DO as that would be more detailed 3D.

As for the Jaguar, what do you think of the theory that the Jaguar (performance wise) is more powerful than the 3DO and was only held back by lack of access to the RISC processors and traffic in the bus? It's an interesting theory that's been spreading around lately, though without much detail .

As for 3DO 60fps games, have you done any Japanese game tests yet or just NTSC so far?

 

[dark10x]

Well most of the 2D shmups on the PSX are very simplized or 2D sprites. A lot of them wouldn't take too much effort to run. Games like G Darius, yes that would be a problem on the 3DO as that would be more detailed 3D.

As for the Jaguar, what do you think of the theory that the Jaguar (performance wise) is more powerful than the 3DO and was only held back by lack of access to the RISC processors and traffic in the bus? It's an interesting theory that's been spreading around lately, though without much detail .

As for 3DO 60fps games, have you done any Japanese game tests yet or just NTSC so far?

I think you're WAY underselling the 2D games (and 3D ones).

Look at the games on this list here. We're getting games that were impossible on older consoles (on both PS1 and Saturn, of course). Huge sprites and tons of them was the order of the day. Plus stuff like Gradius Gaiden. No way you'd see that on Jaguar or 3DO.

http://www.racketboy.com/retro/phenominal-playstation-ps1-2d-shooters-shmups-library

As for the Jag, it has some unique advantages - it can draw 2D games like 16-bit consoles when done right which solves the speed issues. The Risc processors are capable of a lot of neat tricks as well.

I'm not sure it's completely more capable than 3DO, though. 3DO has some pretty impressive capabilities for its day.

The Jag suffers more than it should due to lack of support and many devs relying too heavily on the 68k.

I've checked out many Japanese 3DO games as well, yes. If there's any I've missed it will still likely be in the single digits. It just seems like pulling off 60fps on that machine is very VERY difficult.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Wow, Myst. That brings me back

 

[Afro Republican]

I think you're WAY underselling the 2D games (and 3D ones).

Look at the games on this list here. We're getting games that were impossible on older consoles (on both PS1 and Saturn, of course). Huge sprites and tons of them was the order of the day. Plus stuff like Gradius Gaiden. No way you'd see that on Jaguar or 3DO.

http://www.racketboy.com/retro/phenominal-playstation-ps1-2d-shooters-shmups-library

As for the Jag, it has some unique advantages - it can draw 2D games like 16-bit consoles when done right which solves the speed issues. The Risc processors are capable of a lot of neat tricks as well.

I'm not sure it's completely more capable than 3DO, though. 3DO has some pretty impressive capabilities for its day.

The Jag suffers more than it should due to lack of support and many devs relying too heavily on the 68k.

I've checked out many Japanese 3DO games as well, yes. If there's any I've missed it will still likely be in the single digits. It just seems like pulling off 60fps on that machine is very VERY difficult.

I think your overblowing the difficulty. I'm not saying that there aren't few 3DO 60fps or that the 3DO isn't weal, that's true, however we really don't have have as many companies attempting the same types of games on the 3DO as you see with the SAT PSX, you also have a lot of B tier devs that while can create some decent games, aren't exactly putting all their focus on trying to get wizardry out of the 3DO.

As for shmups, yes, G Darius and games like that would have issues running on the 3DO, but a lot of the PSX shmups, are just lazy and are nowhere near as taxing as you seem to be implying on average, I know that's a different thing to look into later but just something to keep in mind.

Generally, during the time that the 3DO was relevant and a slight bit beyond that, it was serviceable as a game device and was constantly compared to the other two consoles with some articles claiming some multiplats superior. A lot of the best selling favorite games were games that could run or did run on the 3DO, even if not as well, and so I wouldn't say the 3DO is as far behind as you implied, but you're also correct in correcting that other poster who said it was the strongest. Some games the Jaguar can do better, I remember Super Burnout being considered to fast for the 3DO by some interviews which is why the 3DO saw few of those scaling 2D games you saw in the arcades.

Not to mention the earlier half of the 3DO's life where your only options for home 3D were polygonal games on the Atari St at 3fps, or SNES/Starfox GEN/Virtua racing. So it had it's spot, and would have done better if you could get one for less than $500 ($700 with a game and extra controller)

But anyway I'll see if I can find some more 60fps games.

 

[dark10x]

I'm weirdly enjoying this back and forth, by the way. This is like good old GAF ha ha.

but a lot of the PSX shmups, are just lazy and are nowhere near as taxing as you seem to be implying on average

I'd love to hear examples that you feel are lazy, honestly. I think a lot of those 2D games are the ones that hold up the best by today's standards. They haven't aged - smooth 60fps with beautiful sprites is a timeless look.

Not to mention the earlier half of the 3DO's life where your only options for home 3D were polygonal games on the Atari St at 3fps, or SNES/Starfox GEN/Virtua racing. So it had it's spot, and would have done better if you could get one for less than $500 ($700 with a game and extra controller)

Oh sure, the 3DO was super impressive for the time it released. No doubt about that. It's just that it was a tad too early for console 3D and it really struggled on the frame-rate side. That's really the issue I've had going back to it - a lot of promising games that suffer due to very very low sub-20fps frame-rates. I wish games like Killing Time and PO'ed were more playable on there but they're basically single digit frame-rate games.

I've recently started checking out a lot of 3DO to PS1/Saturn ports and they almost always solve the performance issues though they can also have their own problems. Return Fire is the latest one - I love the game on 3DO but that frame-rate is really bad. PS1 is like 3x the frame-rate.

 

[s_mirage]

Afro Republican, I agree with dark10x, you're underselling how demanding 2D rendering could be on polygon and framebuffer based hardware of that era. The older consoles used a completely different rendering paradigm that was set up specifically to handle spites and scrolling 2D background planes. Things were more difficult without that type of hardware.

Take Mortal Kombat Trilogy on the Sega Saturn, a system known for being a 2D monster. The Saturn version lacks the transparency effects of the Playstation version. In response to being called "lamers", the programmers explained that due to the Saturn's hardware setup they faced two choices: either they could keep the transparencies but would have had to have drawn all sprites and backgrounds using VDP1, or they could utilise VDP2 to draw the backgrounds (it was a dedicated background plane processor and gave the Saturn much of its 2d prowess) but would have to use mesh transparencies on the sprites. The first option would have ran at 30fps so they had to use the second to run at 60. VDP1 alone wasn't fast enough to run a 2D fighter with parallax backgrounds at 60fps.

The 3DO has no VDP2 equivalent and I'm not sure the CEL engines could render as many pixels as the Saturn's VDP1.

 

[Stuart360]

Man Afro you're a bit clueless over all this. I mean i loved the 3D0 but Saturn and PS1 was way more advanced. Ridge Racer was a bad port?, since when, that port was praised at the time and many people think the RR port was the main reason why PS1 blew away Saturn early on.

 

[Vawn]

I was obsessed with Need for Speed and Road Rash on 3D0 back then. Strange, since I've never been into racing games any other time.

 

[Afro Republican]

Afro Republican, I agree with dark10x,

No you don't, you haven't been following the conversation, your whole post basically boiled down to thinking I said the 3DO was better or equal to the PSX/SAT which i never once said.

Man Afro you're a bit clueless over all this. I mean i loved the 3D0 but Saturn and PS1 was way more advanced.

Actually you're clueless. Don't jump into the conversation if you don't even read it. I never once made the claim the 3DO was more advanced. I didn't even imply it.

 

[Afro Republican]

I'd love to hear examples that you feel are lazy, honestly. I think a lot of those 2D games are the ones that hold up the best by today's standards. They haven't aged

The aesthetics not aging have nothing to do with a good chunk of the PSX shmups being very basic in design, a good chunk aren't really that taxing. It's not that hard to make a decent looking lazy 2D games that ages better than the very flawed 3D polygons of the PSX.

Oh sure, the 3DO was super impressive for the time it released. No doubt about that. It's just that it was a tad too early for console 3D.

I don't know what this means, because the implication here is that the PSX with it's 3D issues (that the 3DO didn't have) and it's sub 30fps higher end games were somehow not early for 3D?

I mean, I think the 3DO was in the best position when it came out and price being it's only real issue early on. All other home 3D computers/consoles were way behind, and for some time during it's run it was being compared to the PSX and SAT by critics and fans until even mid 97. By the time the PSX started putting out consistently better looking games the PC was widening the gap and the Dreamcast rumors (and later confirmation) were flying.

Personally if anything all the consoles were too early for 3D. The most "powerful" of the consoles from that time frame was the N64 who sacrificed frame rate for graphics constantly. People and devs were expecting Sony and N64 not to cut corners and get some decent chips in their machines and have good performance which is why Crusin' USA and Ride Racer kept being pushed as these super arcade games that would run on these machines but that ended up not being the case. At least the 3DO was madeof parts that were the best you could get late 92/early 93 as its design was finished.

Maybe Sega wasn't completely crazy with its original Saturn vision.

 

[dark10x]

The aesthetics not aging have nothing to do with a good chunk of the PSX shmups being very basic in design, a good chunk aren't really that taxing. It's not that hard to make a decent looking lazy 2D games that ages better than the very flawed 3D polygons of the PSX.

...but it was too difficult to pull off this sort of game on a 3DO or the Jaguar at that level.

I don't know what this means, because the implication here is that the PSX with it's 3D issues (that the 3DO didn't have) and it's sub 30fps higher end games were somehow not early for 3D?

I mean, I think the 3DO was in the best position when it came out and price being it's only real issue early on. All other home 3D computers/consoles were way behind, and for some time during it's run it was being compared to the PSX and SAT by critics and fans until even mid 97. By the time the PSX started putting out consistently better looking games the PC was widening the gap and the Dreamcast rumors (and later confirmation) were flying.

Personally if anything all the consoles were too early for 3D. The most "powerful" of the consoles from that time frame was the N64 who sacrificed frame rate for graphics constantly. People and devs were expecting Sony and N64 not to cut corners and get some decent chips in their machines and have good performance which is why Crusin' USA and Ride Racer kept being pushed as these super arcade games that would run on these machines but that ended up not being the case. At least the 3DO was madeof parts that were the best you could get late 92/early 93 as its design was finished.

Maybe Sega wasn't completely crazy with its original Saturn vision.

The implication is that 3DO games generally run with frame-rates that are just too low. A lot of games are below 15fps and many are below 10. That's just way too low.

PS1 and Saturn games are often super ugly, yes, but the average frame-rates were much much higher even in 1994-1995. It didn't take until 97 or 98 to deliver smooth 3D graphics. They were often ugly but they ran fairly well.

Ridge Racer on PS1 launched at a locked 30fps with near arcade quality visuals and then later was re-released at 60fps in high resolution mode as a bonus disc with RR Type-4 (which shows progress in development skills).

The point is, there are a surprisingly large number of 60fps and solid 30fps 3D games on PS1. Hundreds. Simple though some may be, these stable frame-rates allows them to remain playable today in a big way. Saturn has plenty as well. Like 3DO, the 3D graphics were often rough to look at but they always ran a LOT better than 3DO.

It's all about that frame-rate. There are so few smooth 3DO games out there - it was just not fast enough with its 12MHz CPU.

I think the Dreamcast is the first time we received genuinely beautiful 3D graphics at home, though.

 

[Afro Republican]

...but it was too difficult to pull off this sort of game on a 3DO or the Jaguar at that level.

Except this doesn't work, as you seem to have forgotten the 3DO doesn't have any 2D Shmups on any level to compare with . Hard for something to be difficult to pull off if it doesn't exist. Also not sure where the random Jaguar inclusion came from, Jaguars good history but it's no 3D powerhouse. At least not with the 68k resource hog and the buss gimp.

The implication is that 3DO games generally run with frame-rates that are just too low. A lot of games are below 15fps and many are below 10. That's just way too low.

But what about the N64?

 

[dark10x]

Except this doesn't work, as you seem to have forgotten the 3DO doesn't have any 2D Shmups on any level to compare with . Hard for something to be difficult to pull off if it doesn't exist. Also not sure where the random Jaguar inclusion came from, Jaguars good history but it's no 3D powerhouse. At least not with the 68k resource hog and the buss gimp.

It does work. The evidence lies in the fact that there's basically 2 games on 3DO that are both 2D and 60fps. Nearly every single 2D game on the system struggles to reach even 30fps - most of them are in the 20fps range. Gex, Samurai Showdown, Eye of Typhoon, Captain Quazar, Casper, The Horde, Johnny Bazookatone,
Primal Rage and Syndicate are the 2D games that come to mind which all run at 30fps or less. Johnny and Quazar can both hit 60 when nothing is on-screen but it's very very rare. These are all simple games with simplistic backgrounds - I have absolutely zero faith that 3DO could handle DoDonPachi, Gradius Gaiden, Harmful Park, Zanac X Zanac, Strikers 1945 and the like. Based on developer interviews and examples of 2D games that shipped, I think it's fair to say that 3DO simply isn't designed to handle games like that. Throwing around so many sprites at 60fps was a challenge for hardware of that era. I don't even think it could handle games like Thunder Force IV on the Megadrive - too much parallax, too many sprites - stuff we never saw on the system. It simply isn't' designed for these types of games - it was made with an eye for 3D.

You noted that the tools were poor which caused issues for Crystal's games (like Gex) which seems like a huge problem to me. If a company like Crystal, with its huge support for the system, struggled with performance then perhaps the problem lies there. Gex is a choppy mess on 3DO and lacks the more complex parallax backgrounds of the 60fps PS1 and Saturn ports as well. The reasoning doesn't matter - this was a very expensive console. Releasing a mascot game like Gex with such low frame-rates is kind of insulting. I could not believe my eyes when I first played it. It simply didn't make sense at the time.

But what about the N64?

N64 is certainly much stronger than these systems in some ways - it offers features that were only available on 3D accelerator cards of that era, it offers real anti-aliasing in hardware, bilinear texture filtering, perspective correction and the like. When balanced properly, the N64 can deliver a great mix of lovely visuals at smooth frame-rates.

Super Mario 64, Doom 64, Quake, Turok, Rayman 2 and the like are all beautiful and run smoothly. Doom 64 is basically 100% locked at 30fps and looks better than any previous console iteration of Doom - it wasn't a trivial task to run that game. Quake is also impressive - again, 30fps with GLQuake level visuals let down only by lower texture resolution. Quake 2 is also impressive.

You're not going to get Quake or Mario 64 on a 3DO. It's just not possible.

...unfortunately, it's true that a large portion of the library was shipped with really low frame-rates. They are certainly higher on average than 3DO games - the worst performing N64 game is Perfect Dark and it runs at a frame-rate that is very common for 3DO (I've measured). PD is a lot smoother than Killing Time, Doom and PO'ed, for instance.

I'm judging 3DO by its rather large library, though. Could it be capable of more? Who knows. All I do know is that it runs games at lower frame-rates across the board than the machines that would follow. That's not a matter of opinion either - it's an actual fact.

 

[s_mirage]

Afro, you insinuated that 2D shooters aren't demanding and the 3DO would have been able to run them at 60fps if there were any on the system, didn't you? You also stated that the 3DO could keep pace with the PS1's first few years of games. If that's the case, 2D fighters should also have been relatively undemanding, and there's the grand total of one of those that I'm aware of on the 3DO that runs at 60fps. That game had all of the parallax scrolling removed while it was retained on the other 32-bit platforms. Another multiplatform fighter on the 3DO for example, Primal Rage, retains the parallax scrolling but runs at 30 on the 3DO and 60 on virtually everything else. There's a trend here: virtually nothing on the 3DO runs at 60fps, including 2D games, and the 3DO versions almost always ran worse than those on other systems, though they sometimes had better quality textures and effects.

If 2D games are undemanding, as you claim, yet the 3DO's 2D games run worse than their PS1 and Saturn equivalents (even the multi-platform mahjong game, Idol Janshi Suchi Pai, runs at 30fps on 3DO and 60 on everything else), this doesn't really tally with your assertion that the 3DO could have reproduced PS1 games up to late '98, does it?

If you're going to say that Gex runs at 30 on the 3DO and 60 on everything else because of poor tools and not hardware performance, you're going to have to show some kind of source, especially considering it follows the trend of every other 2D 3DO game that appeared on multiple platforms. IMO, poor tools doesn't seem to be a likely reason for poor performance on the 3DO either given that the system had more comprehensive tools and libraries than any contemporary system, as well as a multitasking OS. Alongside it's more flexible texture usage, the 3DO's OS and libraries were the reason that some games looked better than their Playstation equivalents: textures could take less space and the OS could handle tasks such as streaming from disc.

 

[Afro Republican]

It does work. The evidence lies in the fact that there's basically 2 games on 3DO that are both 2D and 60fps. Nearly every single 2D game on the system struggles to reach even 30fps - most of them are in the 20fps range. Gex, Samurai Showdown, Eye of Typhoon, Captain Quazar, Casper, The Horde, Johnny

I never said the 3DO was made to handle technically impressive 2D games, however the game you mentioned above, are more demanding than most of those basic shmups on the PSX. You don't seem to realize just how not having SHMUPS on the 3DO makes it impossible to make such a comparison. Comparing games like Ridge Racer or Samurai Shodown to the lower-end of SHMUPS are are the majority of the SHMUPS on the PSX is an apple to oranges comparison. That isn't the same as me saying that the 3DO was fully capable of advanced 2D games, which I never said, yet the rest of your post implies I di.. The comparison doesn't work.

this was a very expensive console. Releasing a mascot game like Gex with such low frame-rates is kind of insulting.

No it wasn't, your taking your modern bias and bringing through your retrospective lens. Gex was considered a well run amazing home console games at the time. Almost all 3D on consoles or home computers before 3DO was horrible unless you think those early 90's 3D ST/Commodore games running at 3fps with displaced blocky figures were better. Especially since games like Gex outside of frame rate were more impressive visual and audio wise than a 60fps SNES game. People didn't mind that much back in the day. Just like they didn't mind the N64 frame rates, which were also bad.

You're not going to get Quake or Mario 64 on a 3DO. It's just not possible.

Again you seem to be trying your hardest to make it seem like for its time the 3DO was terrible while also saying it wasn't and it was good for its time. Odd comparisons like this just make that more clear.

You're right, you can't get Mario 64 on the 3DO (or PSX), but that has nothing to do with the systems reputation for having bad frame rates which you completely avided by ignoring a large part of its library and only mentioning smoother or relatively smooth games.

My point was that you seem to be attacking the 3DO primarily on it's frame rate and you seem to be giving the N64 a pass.

Killing Time, Doom and PO'ed, for instance.

Again here's another example. Why are you using DOOM as an examples of issues pulling off 3DO frame rates when DOOM 3DO is a widely known publicly documented cases of people trying to rush the game and not optimizing it correctly? There's plenty of stories about why Doom 3Do runs bad, but it wasn't because they had issues getting it to run. That's a bit misleading.


Again, I never said the 3DO was as powerful as the PSX, however you seem to be downplaying how good the console was for the time it was around. Which I don't get.