nikolino840
Member
I don't know,but do you think Sony do shop in Amazon like you and me? Add to cart 90mill of hd in a consumer price?
Is like when in a bar/restaurant they have contracts for beers/wine/meat.....
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How big of a game changer would it be if Sony is using a large amount of ReRAM as the PS5 SSD?
Is like when in a bar/restaurant they have contracts for beers/wine/meat.....
Hexa
Member
It sounded like it could be proprietary, but I am open to being wrong.
No one is selling ReRAM that can be used like a normal SSD right now. Sony has shown they have the tech to do it, but no one has tried to really sell it yet because it isn't worth it from a cost point of view. If they do use ReRAM it would be a custom solution internally developed for the PS5.
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joe_zazen
Member
If a poster or thread bugs you, move on. Put the poster on ignore and ignore the thread(s). Thread shitting is garbage behaviour that makes any forum worse. If a thread is really is bad, tell the mods. But coming in and trying to convince the world that one of the few interesting gaf posters is a shithead is really annoying.
And if you want a different type of tech thread MAKE IT YOURSELF.
joe_zazen
Member
The problem with super fast, high iops nvme flash is getting software to utilise it. Cerny said something like they are developing specialised software stack and since it will be in every machine, first party stuff can take full advantage. Maybe they are working with a tech partner for a custom reram. I doubt they would work with intel.
Anyway, i think the ps5 memory system is going to be the most interesting thing about next gen.
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MightySquirrel
Banned
Hmm obviously everyone here knows that sony and ms has a deal with amd for this generation and now for upcoming gen and that the profit margins for AMD per single SOC in this deal are tiny and no where near the same as Nvidia demands for it's gfx cards. High volume multiyear deals are like that., because they're safe profit long term and you know that R&D will pay of in a year of few. Why would you assume that it's a secret known only to you is a mystery to me...?
I gave you an example showing how much a drive using similar tech costs today for regular consumer and you're basically saying that sony can come up with a deal and/or implementation that would reduce it 10 times in a year. That's what you'd need for Sony to consider it. Are you forgetting that PS4 and XB1 had $25 drives in them. You'd have to cut the price 10 times at the very least and still $120 compared $25 is quite an increase for only storage.
Zannegan
Member
I don't know, but I vaguely recall some speculative analysis talking about using a small harddrive's worth of 3D X-point as a replacement for RAM itself. Though a little slow compared to traditional RAM, I think the trade off was that it could be a large, cheap (lol) pool of ram that would cut out the SSD/RAM middle man altogether.
Of course, they had no idea 3D X-point would stay so expensive for so long. They even mentioned something about using it for the return of game cartridges in consoles, so clearly nowhere near the price range that they thought.
By the way, is there something inherently expensive about producing ReRAM compared to SSDs, or has it just not been scaled up enough to have reasonable prices?
Of course, they had no idea 3D X-point would stay so expensive for so long. They even mentioned something about using it for the return of game cartridges in consoles, so clearly nowhere near the price range that they thought.
By the way, is there something inherently expensive about producing ReRAM compared to SSDs, or has it just not been scaled up enough to have reasonable prices?
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Dirk Benedict
Member
"raw bandwidth higher than any SSD available for PCs" We can only speculate and be excited because that's a tall order but it's also seems clear as day. He used a blanket statement and given that it's Cerny, I expect he is fully aware that this will spread through the news. I guess ReRam is feasible in some way, but it could be something else entirely. example: XDRAM. Something unordinary, or so to speak. The SSD they mention could be custom to the point where only they could sell one(?)
We can only speculate about the ether so much before something materializes from it.
Hexa
Member
They've been showing that tech publicly since at least 2017 but haven't actually sold it since no one wants it because it costs too much to be worth it. That's why they've been focusing on more specialized applications such as TCAM for routers and such. I'm 99% sure even if Sony is using ReRAM that Crossbar isn't involved.
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kraspkibble
Permabanned.
can't see them using any special kind of ram. it'll be LPDDR4 because of the move to Zen. the SSD will probably just be a PCIe 4.0 NVMe drive which could potentially be twice as fast as any drive in PC. PC won't be getting PCIe 4 until later this year. and strangely enough....it'll be AMD chipsets that get it first.
a current PCIe 3.0 drive in a PC can have transfer speeds of ~3GB/s. a PCIe 4.0 will be about 6GB/s. a traditional sata 3 SSD can only do about 550MB/s. that'd explain why they said this SSD will be signifcantly faster than a standard SSD drive. just means their using PCIe instead of SATA.
a current PCIe 3.0 drive in a PC can have transfer speeds of ~3GB/s. a PCIe 4.0 will be about 6GB/s. a traditional sata 3 SSD can only do about 550MB/s. that'd explain why they said this SSD will be signifcantly faster than a standard SSD drive. just means their using PCIe instead of SATA.
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Sony has their own ReRAM solution but I was responding to you saying that no one was selling it.
Hexa
Member
Like they're not selling it as a device. Like if you call them they'll develop a custom solution for you after however long it takes but no one is straight up selling it at the moment.
Why would they sell ReRAM SSDs that would be slowed down by 4 lane PCIe 3?
Hexa
Member
This question makes no sense at all following the logical thread of this discussion and it isn't clear how it relates to anything. Hence the best answer I can give is, they're not. What's your point?
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Why would they be selling SSDs that are over 10X faster when the PC's that's out now only have PCIe 3 & wouldn't be able to take advantage of the SSD because the I/O isn't fast enough?
I just thought of a simple way to explain the fast loading.
Remember downloading music or movies?
You would have to wait until the song or movie was transferred to your device before you could play it but now we just stream the music / movie & start it instantly without waiting for the data to be moved from the internet to your device.
In this case the Processor is like your device & the storage is like the internet , the old way had you downloading the levels from your storage into the memory of your processor but the new way will be streaming the levels from your storage right to the processor because the connection to the storage is a lot faster now.
Remember downloading music or movies?
You would have to wait until the song or movie was transferred to your device before you could play it but now we just stream the music / movie & start it instantly without waiting for the data to be moved from the internet to your device.
In this case the Processor is like your device & the storage is like the internet , the old way had you downloading the levels from your storage into the memory of your processor but the new way will be streaming the levels from your storage right to the processor because the connection to the storage is a lot faster now.
Shangounchained
Banned
An iPhone costs 20$ to make and they sell it to your stupid ass for 1000$ a guy actually went to China and found that out
Shangounchained
Banned
Pcie is a pc standard for pc motherboards the same way PS4 uses a gddr5 main ram and pcs still use ddr4 you bum crack!
VFXVeteran
Banned
It's like this every generation. Everybody wants a supercomputer for $1.
hybrid_birth
Gold Member
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SlashBringingHasher
Banned
would cost a fortune. isn't ReRam only being used for things like on die memory
V2Tommy
Member
...like the 2.5" drive inside the PS3?
I meant the Cell CPU.
Remember, they will be buying in bulk. It solves everything.
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spons
Gold Member
Part of the fallout of the PS3 super-computer marketing nonsense. With CELL, 2 HDMI out, 3 Gigabit Ethernet ports - man, that thing was supposed to rock your socks off. Hell, you could cure cancer with it. In hindsight, this was utter wank of course, but the gimmick remains: how can Sony surprise us next gen?
93xfan
Banned
gotcha. I’d rather they give us access to at least all the ps1/ps2 games we already bought on ps3 and have them enhanced, such as no texture warping in ps1 games.
that would be a very nice surprise for me.
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Probably because Sony has something to gain from ReRAM going mass market but Microsoft might also use ReRAM
日経クロステック（xTECH）
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Probably because Sony has something to gain from ReRAM going mass market but Microsoft might also use ReRAM
日経クロステック（xTECH）
テクノロジーの進化によって様々な業界の境界（クロス）領域で新たなビジネスが続々と誕生する今、どこの誰と、どう組めば新たなチャンスを掴むことができるのか。日経クロステック（xTECH）は、 ITから電機、自動車、建設、土木まで、今をえぐり、一歩先を照らす情報をお届けします。tech.nikkeibp.co.jp
This sounds like something Ken Kutaragi would introduce in a console. Do you think it could ballon the cost of the PS5?
A few months ago people claimed that SSDs was too expensive to be in the next gen consoles now it's confirmed they will both have SSDs & Sony even came out & said it will be faster than the SSDs on the market today.
we also have this from a insider
We went from SSD is impossible to Sony using a SSD that's faster than the SSDs that people thought was too expensive.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I think they might introduce 2 versions. The low being $499 for sure. Maybe the high being $599?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
A few months ago people claimed that SSDs was too expensive to be in the next gen consoles now it's confirmed they will both have SSDs & Sony even came out & said it will be faster than the SSDs on the market today.
we also have this from a insider
We went from SSD is impossible to Sony using a SSD that's faster than the SSDs that people thought was too expensive.
Hmmmm.....maybe there is something to this ReRam stuff then.
Even if it's not ReRAM we already know it's something special & not just a off the shelf SSD
Having a console designed with a SSD is bigger than just having a faster storage because it can become part of the system memory.
We are going from dumb storage to smart storage so instead of having to move data off of the dumb storage into system memory to do anything with it the CPU/GPU can be pointed directly to the data while it's still in storage & never move it.
I guess that's why they can use the words "No Loading" because somethings will not have to be loaded into RAM.
We are going from dumb storage to smart storage so instead of having to move data off of the dumb storage into system memory to do anything with it the CPU/GPU can be pointed directly to the data while it's still in storage & never move it.
I guess that's why they can use the words "No Loading" because somethings will not have to be loaded into RAM.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
How does that work with the limits an SSD can be written to?
EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
If SONY could go back to any of their consoles they would have included in SSD, I applaud them including SSD now.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Hmmm....really? If true that's interesting. How does that work?
The CPU\GPU wouldn't be actually moving the data back & forth from the SSD it would just be accessing it .
Rolling_Start
Banned
You put it there once, and address it like you would system memory. Sort of like a cart on an old console.
There are actually a number of options for using flash in a different way to current HDDs, where you load and decompress into main memory.
You could just use it as an SSD, or you could use it as an extension of ram with processor readable data directly on there [edit: done a shit job of explaining what I mean there - think about it like having the whole game not installed on a HDD or SDD, but already loaded into the game's ram allocation, only some of that ram is virtual and represented by data on the SSD].
From there, you could either access data directly from flash if the BW was great enough (perhaps for audio), or for something like character textures or compute datasets [edit: well any large dataset you're accessing on a per frame basis) you could copy across the data to an area of high bandwidth memory (lower power cost per access, many tens or hundreds of times the accesses per second). This would sit well with GPU features like Partially Resident Textures, I imagine. It's be a frame of latency at most to copy the higher level mip map into main memory.
Key thing is not to let the game write to flash willy nilly. Accesses are fine, as they don't reduce durability in any meaningful way.
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Plague Doctor
Member
I'll be honest with you. I read these threads and inadvertently gloss over the tech details, and then ask, "What's the launch price and the launch library looking like?"
The only nuance I go into now is "Is it backwards compat?"
Honestly, I think for consumers the price point in relation to technology offered and the library are the big issues. Carrying over your library of digital is now also a biggie.
The only nuance I go into now is "Is it backwards compat?"
Honestly, I think for consumers the price point in relation to technology offered and the library are the big issues. Carrying over your library of digital is now also a biggie.
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Rolling_Start
Banned
Like that, but addressable by both the CPU and GPU, and without anything more than limited write access for saves by the game. And possibly something more advanced than connecting entire NVMe drives, with an integrated flash controller and custom flash translation layer to minimise latency and maximise throughput. Perhaps the CPU could take over some of the roles of the flash memory controller, as it's likely to be a lot faster.
And remember: it is essential that games can't use the flash interchangeably with the dram! There isn't the endurance.
No need to decompress. The whole compression business was created to alleviate slow bandwidth of and HDD.
By TRC you have ~30 sec to load your game. In 30 sec you can load ~1200Mb of data which is not enough to fill up your memory, so you compress it to have 2500mb (typical assets go 2x) and then when logos are shown next 30 sec, you load another 2500Mb.
And here you're at least 5Gb of RAM loaded...
Not needed, texture lookups are cached. If youre flash can get to 5Gb/sec it's more than enough for any assets. Use RAM for high volatility data: render targets, index buffers, animations, collision calculations, etc.
Anything read-only can probably go straight from flash.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Yeah, I was saying that load and decompress was what's done currently. With enough bandwidth you wouldn't need to do that, unless you were trying to reduce the game's footprint in flash or perhaps touch on fewer banks per access on average (perhaps helping with concurrent accesses?).
My thought was actually that you could store the entire game in "virtual memory", already "loaded" into the game instance's address space. So you wouldn't actually "load" anything at runtime as such (other than save data) - it's already there. You simply swap to a virtualised instance of game like a computer that's already running coming out of suspend. I suspect this is what Stadia and XCloud will be doing in order to spin off game instances almost instantly when someone connects.
I don't think that 5GB/s (85 MB/frame at 60 hz) is enough for all read-only assets due to the small size of on-GPU caches. Almost everything is evicted over the course of a frame. Using main ram as a kind of last level cache (perhaps that's what you are saying?) could work well, as the number of "new" texels you'd pull in per frame is usually only a small percentage, and the same would be true of most of your geometry.
I've been very impressed by virtual texturing in iD's stuff, and also in the Trials games.
It will be interesting to see the different modes of operation console SSDs might have. There's already a rumour of two different levels of flash access on Scarlett - if so I'd guess a legacy mode and a "virtual memory" mode with lower level control over accesses (based on the Scarlett reveal video).
Yep. I thought about it the second they announced SSDs.
The problem would be: no PC support. The assets will be highly hardware specific, multiplatform games will not do it...
Yep. That.
Partially resident textures in mmaped files.
AFAIR, Cerny said exactly the same.
File-based access scheme + low level Flash API.
