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[Bryank75]

(Skip to almost 3 minutes in)

'We've talked a lot about crunch and other forms of industry abuse this year. We've raked multiple companies over the coals for their unethical and often exploitative behavior. We will keep doing that.

What do we do, however, when this nasty behavior is perpetuated by one of the "good" ones? What if, say, CD Projekt RED was accused of overworking staff in hostile conditions?

Well, according to those excited for Cyberpunk 2077, we should just look the other way.' JS

 

[GreyHorace]

I'm sorry, but I going to be a bit blunt here...

WHO THE FUCK CARES?

Is the plight of videogame developers really something we should be concerned about? Especially in these days of the Covid-19 pandemic when healthcare workers are seriously overworked and at risk of getting infected?

Why doesn't Jim "TREEPLE EEEYYY" Sterling do a video on them, instead of this non story?

 

[Abriael_GN]

(Skip to almost 3 minutes in)

'We've talked a lot about crunch and other forms of industry abuse this year. We've raked multiple companies over the coals for their unethical and often exploitative behavior. We will keep doing that.

What do we do, however, when this nasty behavior is perpetuated by one of the "good" ones? What if, say, CD Projekt RED was accused of overworking staff in hostile conditions?

Well, according to those excited for Cyberpunk 2077, we should just look the other way.' JS

Imagine thinking what Jim "useless whiner" Sterling says is actually relevant in any shape or form.

 

[AV]

Is the plight of videogame developers really something we should be concerned about? Especially in these days of the Covid-19 pandemic when healthcare workers are seriously overworked and at risk of getting infected?

You're on a video game forum. None of it matters. Saying that things don't matter because kids are starving in Africa is meaningless.

That being said, everything Jim Sterling says about crunch is also meaningless.

 

[clarky]

As long as its not delayed again then crack that whip CD.

 

[ethomaz]

It is funny how it is a bad thing for every other company but for some weird reason for CDPR it is not lol

 

[Dr. Claus]

Remember. Jim is a hypocritical cunt that doesn’t actually care about any of these issues.
Don’t give the fat cunt clicks. Best to watch someone who actually stands by their principles such as SidAlpha.

 

[GHG]

• The developers get compensated appropriately
• If they don't deem the overtime to be worth it then they can leave, they are not forced to stay at the company against their will
• The game has just gone gold and will break sales records, employees are set to get a cut of this

Cry me a river.

 

[B-universe]

(Skip to almost 3 minutes in)

'We've talked a lot about crunch and other forms of industry abuse this year. We've raked multiple companies over the coals for their unethical and often exploitative behavior. We will keep doing that.

What do we do, however, when this nasty behavior is perpetuated by one of the "good" ones? What if, say, CD Projekt RED was accused of overworking staff in hostile conditions?

Well, according to those excited for Cyberpunk 2077, we should just look the other way.' JS

I'm going to crosspost, because the video is too awful to go unnoticed.

__________________________________________

Ah, poor, Jim Sterling, the King of Strawman.

Ah, poor Jim, trying to conflate indentured servitude with a voluntary relationship between employer and employee, which the latter is free to terminate, as in, quit.

Ah, poor Jim, insinuating there's no possible principled defence of crunch. That it's just hypocritical teenagers who wouldn't be able to stand another delay rationalizing CDPR's behaviour. Poor Jim, he's probably never been exposed to proper arguments in defence of crunch down at the local pub, so he might actually believe there aren't any.

Ah, poor Jim, suggesting gamers should not trust Adam Badowski when he says developers are satisfied for the most part, because that's just what devs and management would say. Let me apply this infallible logic of Jim to Jim himself: Sure, gamers should trust Jim Sterling instead, so he can keep on making controversial videos complaining about the ills of a popular video game company, thus keeping his channel alive, right?

Ah, poor Jim, oblivious to individual rights, which extend both to developers and management. Poor Jim, can't stand the free market, because it's so unfair to poor developers. He just can't fathom other people having other values, other priorities, other goals. Please, Jim, would you accept the a possible pungent "Sorry" with which developers might apologize for not being Jim Sterling?

Ah, poor Jim, claiming that when developers can speak freely they've "describe[d] a culture of misery". Really, Jim? How would you know that? How many did? What percentage? Did you verify their claims? How did you verify the claims?

Ah, poor Jim. using "Fucking" as commas, therefore he must the right. His self-righteous tone can only mean the arguments are on his side. No other possibility exists. Workers must unionize. Why oh why won't developers listen to Jim once and for all? Who could possibly distrust Jim?

In terms of quality of the arguments Jim's made, watching this video is the equivalent of inspecting a sewer.

Ah, poor Jim.

 

[Birdo]

Dude is just pissed that he can't eat the game.

 

[Dodkrake]

Naughty Dog enforces Crunching? Kill them with Fire
Naughty Dog has muscular woman in game? SJW propaganda

CD Project Red enforces Crunching? That's fine
CD Project Red has dick customization and gender fluid options? that's fine

To say, I'm against the first (crunch) and not bothered by the second.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Is the plight of videogame developers really something we should be concerned about? Especially in these days of the Covid-19 pandemic when healthcare workers are seriously overworked and at risk of getting infected?

Relative privation fallacy, he mainly reports on the game/entertainment industry even if his weight class should make him more invested in the health sector.

 

[Dynasty8]

This guy never stops whining. Literally bitches about everything for clicks.

 

[Arkam]

We need to get past this crap. Crunch is perfectly fine and anyone who dislikes it is more than free to move on. Building software is not like building a house where it all goes to plan. Its more like renovating a house, where you make a lot of assumptions prior to opening up walls and such. It will almost always go off the rails due to a poor assumption(if not many). When you have a deadline (marketing deals signed) you do what is required to get the game out. If not they all might soon be on the streets.

 

[ethomaz]

• The developers get compensated appropriately
• If they don't deem the overtime to be worth it then they can leave, they are not forced to stay at the company against their will
• The game has just gone gold and will break sales records, employees are set to get a cut of this

Cry me a river.

Yeap it is optional...

If you want to never work in the industry again lol

 

[Ulysses 31]

We need to get past this crap. Crunch is perfectly fine and anyone who dislikes it is more than free to move on. Building software is not like building a house where it all goes to plan. Its more like renovating a house, where you make a lot of assumptions prior to opening up walls and such. It will almost always go off the rails due to a poor assumption(if not many). When you have a deadline (marketing deals signed) you do what is required to get the game out. If not they all might soon be on the streets.

I'm sure you make a case for some crunch at the end of projects, if it becomes the every day norm/culture then that should be resisted.

 

[Clear]

"Failure of management"? Not always.

Game production is uniquely unpredictable, and sometimes there are no quick or easy fixes for unforseen problems.

Is management imperfect? Sure. But so is everyone else. Should submitting a piece of what turns out to be buggy code be a punishable, even sackable offense? If that was the case there'd be literally nobody left.

 

[GymWolf]

Jim lost me years ago when he said that knack 2 gameplay was unresponsive...

 

[ethomaz]

"Failure of management"? Not always.

Game production is uniquely unpredictable, and sometimes there are no quick or easy fixes for unforseen problems.

Is management imperfect? Sure. But so is everyone else. Should submitting a piece of what turns out to be buggy code be a punishable, even sackable offense? If that was the case there'd be literally nobody left.

You know project management has some tools like review the project schedule.
It i s part of project management to review the schedule and make the proper changes regularly.

So yes crunch is a "failure of management".

 

[GreyHorace]

You're on a video game forum. None of it matters. Saying that things don't matter because kids are starving in Africa is meaningless.

That being said, everything Jim Sterling says about crunch is also meaningless.

I just think the subject of videogame crunch is such a non issue, especially when compared to other professions that face more risk and work longer hours than any of these game developers. The only reason we keep on hearing about it again and again is because idiots like Sterling and Jason Schreier need the clicks to stay relevant.

And frankly, the general public at large doesn't give a fuck about crunch. You think people are going to stop watching Titanic because James Cameron is an asshole who puts his crew and actors through hell?

 

[kingwingin]

Hope whoever ends up doing his bypass surgery doesn't decide to clock out after their 8 hour shift in the middle of it

 

[ljubomir]

People sweating over 5 days of paid overtime

 

[Sentenza]

Naughty Dog enforces Crunching? Kill them with Fire

CD Project Red enforces Crunching? That's fine

Aside for the fact that this is mostly a strawman (honestly "How the sausage is made" is none of my business in both cases) there's also a difference between "We didn't sleep at our homes for six months straight" (as the rumors went for ND and TW3) and "Boo fucking oooh, they asked us to work on Saturday for six weeks straight during the final rush!" (as reported for CP2077).

 

[Albion]

Naughty Dog has muscular woman in game? SJW propaganda


CD Project Red has dick customization and gender fluid options? that's fine

You realize CDPR are adding in that trans genderfluid stuff as a negative view on it? Night city is meant to be completely degenerate, and CDPR are saying in a fallen morally destroyed city like nighty city, stuff like trans/genderfluid/genital/diversity stuff would be normal BECAUSE everything is so bad.

Dystopia is the one genre the sjw stuff makes sense

 

[drganon]

I'd rather watch dsp than Jim Sterling.

 

[ethomaz]

Hope whoever ends up doing his bypass surgery doesn't decide to clock out after their 8 hour shift in the middle of it

If you have a shift between the surgery you are not allowed to participate lol
That is why you have a planned schedule... to have people available to take part in the surgery including the backups.

 

[Kagey K]

It's 6 extra days they have to work over the course of 6 weeks. It's not like they are working 24/7 for the last 8 weeks.

Inevitably there is going to be a crunch period in any occupation where there is a deadline or time limit involved. It's a part of the industry you chose to work in, and you go into it with an understanding of that.

 

[Abriael_GN]

It is funny how it is a bad thing for every other company but for some weird reason for CDPR it is not lol

Do you have actual examples (in relevant numbers) of people here who bashed other companies for crunch and are ok with CD Projekt Red doing it, or you're simply pulling a juvenile strawman argument based on nothing to make a false point?

 

[Ulysses 31]

Aside for the fact that this is mostly a strawman (honestly "How the sausage is made" is none of my business in both cases) there's also a difference between "We didn't sleep at our homes for six months straight" (as the rumors went for ND and TW3) and "Boo fucking oooh, they asked us to work on Saturday for six weeks straight during the final rush!" (as reported for CP2077).

Mandatory is not the same as they asked us nicely.

 

[B-universe]

It is funny how it is a bad thing for every other company but for some weird reason for CDPR it is not lol

How about you quote someone who chastised any other company for crunch and is now excusing CDPR, hey?

Can you do that or you want to leave it to the collective imagination, hey?
Is that too much work for you?
You much rather be a snipper of one-liners?

 

[and 3 others]

Stick to what you're good at James Stanton, gay exclusive back yard wrestling and anti-capitalist bashing.

 

[geary]

You know project management has some tools like review the project schedule.
It i s part of project management to review the schedule and make the proper changes regularly.

Have you ever worked in project management? Or any project that takes several year from initiation to production?

 

[AV]

I just think the subject of videogame crunch is such a non issue, especially when compared to other professions that face more risk and work longer hours than any of these game developers. The only reason we keep on hearing about it again and again is because idiots like Sterling and Jason Schreier need the clicks to stay relevant.

And frankly, the general public at large doesn't give a fuck about crunch. You think people are going to stop watching Titanic because James Cameron is an asshole who puts his crew and actors through hell?

Again, comparing anything that doesn't genuinely put people in some sort of risk is always going to make it look like a non-issue. It's just a weird dismissal.

Not that I think the crunch is really a big issue personally. There will always be people willing to put in those hours to make something amazing, and as long as there are, the unwilling people are largely replaceable.

 

[Arkam]

I'm sure you make a case for some crunch at the end of projects, if it becomes the every day norm/culture then that should be resisted.

Who crunches prior to the need? Usually it is guided by the project burndown chart and the number of open/unaddressed bugs vs avg bug fix time. Crunching when not needed is a wasting resources as it is well known that there is diminishing returns on work hours.

 

[Sentenza]

Mandatory is not the same as they asked us nicely.

Who said a word about "asking nicely"?

 

[Ulysses 31]

How about you quote someone who chastised any other company for crunch and is now excusing CDPR, hey?

Can you do that or you want to leave it to the collective imagination, hey?
Is that too much work for you?
You much rather be a snipper of one-liners?

I've not seen people do it here yet but there surely are CDPR fanboys who're not consistent with their stance on crunch.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I've already raged about this topic enough on here. It's just really irritating when you've been through numerous crunches yourself. All I'm gonna say is CDPR is handling crunch a LOT better than other AAA devs and pubs. I can guarantee that through and through. Just because they've crunched or are crunching doesn't make them an enemy whatsoever. We should be appreciating and celebrating their hard work, not bashing them for it.

I suppose CDPR is only in this spotlight because they're a successful company and CP2077 is huge.

But the fact that these crunch details come out, an article gets made, and then everyone gets up in arms about it is ridiculous. EVERY AAA DEV/PUB CRUNCHES. I mean, if it's such an issue they might as well make an article about every single AAA game that drops, because crunch definitely happened. With every dev/pub, there will always be mandatory crunch at different points in the project. There will also be employees that stay late or work harder/later than others just because. But no one is telling them to do so.

 

[Vawn]

Since when has working a weekend or two been considered inhumane? Perhaps if you weren't a lazy slob yourself Jim, you wouldn't look like that.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

imagine being a fat man who gets paid to complain about how much OTHER people work?

seriously fuck the "critical class" these days. these assholes think they are blowing their minds with this shit that we've known for decades now.

crunch is a thing that happens in every industry. not just games.

it's almost like Jim doesn't know how business works. probably because he hasn't ever had a real job in his life.

 

[ethomaz]

Have you ever worked in project management? Or any project that takes several year from initiation to production?

Yes... it is part of my job.

Actually most of my projects takes years to be implemented... that is why since 2004 it is my 6th or 7th project (I had two years personal retirement between 2015 and 2017 when I left IBM to take care of family company... I'm working again since 2018 with two new projects from a friend's company (he called me to back dozen of times in these two years) and just one ended in March of this year.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Who said a word about "asking nicely"?

The "nicely" is an irrelevant detail I added, doesn't change that they weren't given an option if they wanted to continue working there.

 

[PuffyCan]

A month of overtime before delivering a product is not unusual for programmers... I've worked on a lot of big projects (not gaming related) and it happened on some of them. There is a difference between crunching months after months and crunching the month before you ship your product. One is because of poor project management and the other is for fixing last minute problems before going live.

 

[namekuseijin]

why do I have a feeling this whole "crunch debacle" is a disguised form of #IndieLivesMatter

 

[FunkMiller]

Ah... I see the massive misogynist is once again waxing lyrical about the video games industry. Does he by any chance complain about capitalism?

 

[HTK]

The Man Child has spoken.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's getting to the point where I think gaming "journalists" care about this issue WAAAY more than the average gamer. For what ever that's worth.....

 

[Elcid]

I honestly don't feel for the crunchers. If they don't like it, they can quit. I've done months of crunching too, it sucks, but it is what it is. Time, quality, and money. You can only pick two.

 

[Oida di Figgiano]

What counts for every single other youtuber counts for Jim Sterling as well. Irrelevant (unless there is money to be made using them). Of course everybody has an own agenda and some (like lots of youtubers, other people in the media) try to make a living off it, good for them, but they still irrelevant.

When it comes to crunch, no matter the company: i don´t care. If i´m interested in the product i´ll pay for it and use it. Not interested if somebody "suffered" for it or not, maybe i like it even more if somebody suffered, makes me feel a bit better because it satisfies the sadist in me. But complaining about that? Naw, why should i care, everybody responsible for him-/her-/itself. And even if not, i just don´t care enough about others, there is no we in I.

 

[Warnen]

Paid over time, the horror....

My bro had hazard pay and long hours during the start of the Covid outbreak, he fucking loved it.

 

[Sentenza]

It's getting to the point where I think gaming "journalists" care about this issue WAAAY more than the average gamer.

That wouldn't be so weird. It's worse that it's getting to the point where they seem to care way more than the average developer actually doing the work.