ethomaz
Banned
I won't call that long ago because the generation is in its infancy yet but yeap he is right.
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DF: Unreal Engine 5 Matrix City Sample PC Analysis: The Cost of Next-Gen Rendering
- Thread starter adamsapple
- Start date
I won't call that long ago because the generation is in its infancy yet but yeap he is right.
TrebleShot
Member
I don't understand, surely a 3080/3090 can blast this out at 60 frames what's the problem with it?
ethomaz
Banned
In simple terms there is no CPU in the market that allow a RTX 3080/3090 to come close to 60fps using these next-generation rendering techs.
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Md Ray
Member
I meant he said it before the launch of the current-gen consoles in one of his vids.
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Md Ray
Member
I wonder how 5800X3D does in this demo. I'm really curious to see its performance.
winjer
Gold Member
I would really like to see this demo on a 5800X3D.
In Fortnite, DX12, the 5800X3D was 27% faster than a 5800X. Fortnite is not as heavy on the CPU, but it still got a massive performance increase.
And a 5800X is much faster than a 3700X.
ethomaz
Banned
I don't think it will do much better due Nanite/Lumen relying in high clock but maybe we have a surprise.
From what we know cache won't make difference here.
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winjer
Gold Member
That cache allows all those cores to be well fed, and not stall as much while waiting for instructions from memory.
So it might help somewhat.
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nominedomine
Banned
When did I sugest that? It's completelly normal for a game to be CPU bound when you are using powerful GPUs but to become GPU bound by weaker GPUs.
We are talking about an engine that is CPU bound even at low FPS, very strange behavior.
Hugare
Member
I would wait until a full release before freaking out
It's a very unnoptimized demo
For sure UE 5 will get better at multithreading, but I bet that it will still require some monster CPUs to run next gen games at 60 fps
CPU on consoles got much better this gen. The baseline have been moved considerably.
It's a very unnoptimized demo
For sure UE 5 will get better at multithreading, but I bet that it will still require some monster CPUs to run next gen games at 60 fps
CPU on consoles got much better this gen. The baseline have been moved considerably.
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
I was impressed on ps5 at the very least.
Runs better than on my pc...
nominedomine
Banned
No they are not, specially in the case of single threaded performance. What we get are very incremental upgrades on that front for each new generation of CPUs. The real difference is that console CPUs are clocked much lower. It's not like Desktop CPUs are multiple times faster on single threaded applications and that's why we see PCs struggling to hit 60fps as well.Yes they are.
For once, the desktop Zen2 are clocked higher. Almost 1GHz more than on consoles.
And mind you, that UE5 loves clock speed more than core count.
Then there's the L3 cache. A Zen2 3700X has 16+16MB. Consoles have just 4+4MB.
And to make things worse, consoles have much higher memory latency. A PC desktop Zen2 CPU without memory tweaking, gets 70-80ns of latency.
The PS5 has a latency abore 140ns. This and the lack of L3 cache means that cache misses are much higher on consoles.
Edit:
Some people are saying UE5 is bound by a single thread. But that is not exactly the case.
UE5 can spread workload across many threads. But there is probably some execution bottleneck that limits it's performance.
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TrebleShot
Member
Seriously? what about that new intel thing that's stupidly powerful
ethomaz
Banned
In the actual state using Lumen or Nanite… yes even the stupidly powerful Intel.
I guess Epic is focusing in optimize it for 30fps become stable because they know right now 60fps is not possible.
Of course they need to research solution for fps but that take time.
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winjer
Gold Member
Clocks, cache and memory latency. That is quite a bit of performance lost.
nominedomine
Banned
Clearly the gap in performance is not enougth as to not be a major problem for Desktop CPUs as well.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
That CPU architecture sucks then, call up boys from ID Soft, they figure out how to make engine work in P2P mode on CPU...
Chris_Rivera
Member
What makes him think UE5 can’t be multithreaded? Gimme a break. They are compiling the project themselves and assuming this is optimal.
Zathalus
Member
My 12900k gets around the mid 50s, sometimes hitting 60fps. Still have drops to the 40s however.
winjer
Gold Member
This demo is too heavy for every CPU. Even a 12900K, which is miles ahead of what consoles have, can't reach 60 fps.
nominedomine
Banned
Well yea, that was my point. This is a problem with the engine not with the console CPUs, they are fine.This demo is too heavy for every CPU. Even a 12900K, which is miles ahead of what consoles have, can't reach 60 fps.
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winjer
Gold Member
Your point was that the CPUs on consoles are equal to desktop Zen2. They are not.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
The XSS has the same CPU as the PS5 and XSX contrary to popular belief. If a game is CPU bound on the XSS it will be the same on higher resolution consoles.
nominedomine
Banned
How does that has anything to do with my post? I know that and that's why it's surprising that the Series S is CPU bound as well.
I never said that, I just said the CPUs on desktop aren't drastically better and they aren't.
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TheRedRiders
Member
PC GPU's benefit massively from the own RAM pool and of course higher clocks and faster caches.
Unreal Engine has been notorious for it's overheard on consoles and PC's.
This seems more of consequence of poor engine design or/and optimisation rather than lack of capable hardware.
Unreal Engine has been notorious for it's overheard on consoles and PC's.
This seems more of consequence of poor engine design or/and optimisation rather than lack of capable hardware.
Stuart360
Member
I think people are overreacting to be honest. There will be 60fps UE5 games on console, nevermind PC (in fact there already is with Fortnite).
I very much doubt this Matrix demo had much optimization, and isnt it using like all UE5 feature set at once?. Many people talked how the demo looked close to movie cgi, so got to keep things into perspective.
Tons of devs will be pushing some good looking UE5 games that probably are a quarter as demanding as The Matrix demo.. DrDisrespect talked abouit how impressed he and his team were with their early testing on UE5, and he's the king of framerate.
I very much doubt this Matrix demo had much optimization, and isnt it using like all UE5 feature set at once?. Many people talked how the demo looked close to movie cgi, so got to keep things into perspective.
Tons of devs will be pushing some good looking UE5 games that probably are a quarter as demanding as The Matrix demo.. DrDisrespect talked abouit how impressed he and his team were with their early testing on UE5, and he's the king of framerate.
Lumen and Nanite are two promoted core features. They are pointless if the features miss the requirements of the market. Or do you really think people will start to focus on high end CPUs? World went for efficient multi core more than a decade ago. Vulkan and Dx12 are both focused around efficient ressource sharing. Of course CPUs become faster and more efficient and yes, it’s v5.0 and the first iteration. Still development seems far behind requirements considering that we are talking the two features Epics promotes since a year as „revolutionary“.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Heavily single threaded in 2022? That seems not very with the times. No wonder the console demos drop so hard every time an interaction between two cars happens.
kyliethicc
Member
Of course UE5 being used so much has risks. Don’t like it myself.
Proprietary custom engines for games have a lot of benefits, industry wide.
Xdrive05
Member
What a yikes. :-/ Glad I went for the 5600X when upgrading my B450, but damn.
I'll just come out and say it. I'm not impressed with the demo. The only thing remarkable is the detail quality of the assets and how they don't LOD-pop in, and the lighting is superb. But for the performance hit I feel like other engines could do the same thing if they also only had to hit 30fps in the process. The physics are dogshit. The ray tracing is no better than we've seen elsewhere.
Now if they delivered the exact same demo but were hitting 60fps on mid-range hardware? That would be impressive and actually useful.
UE5 will be the "cinematic" engine that handles higher quality assets better, but plays kinda shitty with high input lag. That Witcher 4 combat will be something else at 30fps.
I'll just come out and say it. I'm not impressed with the demo. The only thing remarkable is the detail quality of the assets and how they don't LOD-pop in, and the lighting is superb. But for the performance hit I feel like other engines could do the same thing if they also only had to hit 30fps in the process. The physics are dogshit. The ray tracing is no better than we've seen elsewhere.
Now if they delivered the exact same demo but were hitting 60fps on mid-range hardware? That would be impressive and actually useful.
UE5 will be the "cinematic" engine that handles higher quality assets better, but plays kinda shitty with high input lag. That Witcher 4 combat will be something else at 30fps.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
i don’t think this has anything to do with the consoles it’s to do with a deficiency of unreal engine 5 And multi core, multi thread cpus.
that with the direct x 12 issues that epic need to fix. It’s fast becoming an underbaked launch. I remember unreal engine 3 having a rough launch and even unreal engine 4 to an extent. It will probs take devs like coalition a few years to assist epic in getting UE 5 up to scratch.
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rofif
Can’t Git Gud
probably. Consoles are just medium spec pc's. So the only thing that differentiates consoles from pc for now is better low level cpu/gpu access and direct IO.
Maybe that is enough to help with the performance?
Balducci30
Member
What does this mean? Like cpus need to be better?
ethomaz
Banned
Well when you do something "revolutionary" you need to look to the future and not now... the CPU user will get better but I don't thing it will be enough for 60fps games today.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Most people played TW3 at 30fps (at least I think the console versions combined sold more than the PC version?), and the combat worked just fine. But of course it's better at 60. And a game using UE5 doesn't mean it CAN'T run at 60, you don't have to use all the features all at once like this demo does.
Dream-Knife
Banned
The future can be changed.
Crysis 4 is in development...
I was expecting UE5 to be too heavy for modern gpus, so this is a surprise. Looks like 3070 owners will be good for the gen, just need to upgrade your CPU every year or two.
That just means consoles will perform even worse.
Things can change. Prior to that everything was about the fastest core.
ethomaz
Banned
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I found it pretty good once you got into the "dance" of it.
ethomaz
Banned
The Witcher 3: Just Dance Edition.
DarkMage619
$MSFT
Why would a CPU bound engine be CPU bound on the XSS? Why would the XSS not be CPU bound when it has the same CPU as other consoles?
kyliethicc
Member
Basically the Jaguar CPUs in the PS4 XBO were so weak that it became easy for most PCs to run almost any game at 60 Hz (or higher). Now the new consoles have significantly better CPUs, so it will harder for the average PC user with a 6 core CPU to just automatically play all the latest games at 60 Hz. Just gonna be different this decade than it was last.
nominedomine
Banned
Do you understand what CPU bound is or are you going to keep asking the same questions again and again that have nothing to do with why I brought up the XSS.
A weaker GPU can make any game GPU bound how hard can that be to understand? It's just a matter of how weak that GPU needs to be.
What do you do to create CPU bound scenarios on PC? You get the best GPU you can an put the game at the lowest settings. By the same logic, using a much weaker GPU could be a way to make the game more GPU bound, but in this case even that wasn't enough.
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RoadHazard
Gold Member
I guess his reasoning is that since it has a much weaker GPU it's more likely to be GPU bound before the CPU even becomes an issue. But GPU use is much easier to scale back (lower resolution, worse lighting, etc), CPU use pretty much is what it is unless you reduce crowd density etc.
But it's not like the PS5 and XSX have a ton of GPU power to spare either. If they did they wouldn't be running at 1080p-1440p. So I'd say they're both GPU and CPU limited (but the CPU is probably what keeps them from maintaining 30fps).
DarkMage619
$MSFT
Checking out this DF video showed that the GPU played little role in significantly improving performance. So whether the GPU is powerful or not the engine remains CPU bound. You'd figure this would be obvious when the comparisons of the various console platforms showed that no matter what platform you were on the game was sub 30 fps. The engine on XSS, XSX, and PS5 remain CPU bound.
ethomaz
Banned
I'm not sure what are you trying to say but...
The GPU here is not an issue... I already explained to you.
No matter the GPU.. weaker, stronger, etc... it won't reach 60fps because the CPU is limiting it go over 30fps.
The CPU workload in Nanite/Lumen is not based in what setting you choose to the GPU.
If you have a very weaker GPU what will happen is that it won't reach even 30fps (it will stay at 10-20fps) because it will hit the GPU limitation before the CPU limitation that starts around 30fps.
That is what means CPU bound scenario... no matter the GPU (weaker, medium, high, etc) the CPU won't allow the performance increase.
It is like in PC when you get the same performance in 1080p or 720p (you decreased the GPU workload but the performance continue being limited by CPU).
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