-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Should every game have an easy mode?
- Thread starter DragoonKain
- Start date
Rocco Schiavone
Member
Yes every noob should be able to finish every game.
22:22:22
NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
How does the option for an easier experience take away from the still included intended mode of playing.
With that said I want to make sure to let you all know that I'm talking from within a context where at all times the intended difficulty mode is present.
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Easy modes take time to implement just as any other feature of the game. So when you implement an easy mode, you are taking dev time away from other features.
That's why I would not like an easy mode in Elden Ring for example. With a game that big and with so many stuff in it, it'd be like having to balance two different games.
Last edited:
22:22:22
NO PAIN TRANCE CONTINUE
Fair enough. I was coming from a more hypothetical perspective rather than the practical aspects like your point/example.
And yeah implementing easier modes will differ greatly depending on the game ofcourse and hence determines the work needed for said implementation
Last edited:
nightmare-slain
Member
Elden Ring then or basically any Souls game.
ER can be as easy or difficult as you want it to be. In fact I'd argue it leans towards being too easy. I had to go out my way to get some challenge in it. Soulsborne is probably less forgiving but it's not difficult. If you go into it expecting your hand to be held then you're gonna have a bad time. Some boss fights are bullshit but overrall the games are balanced in terms of difficulty. You take a couple hours learning how the game works and you'll be moving along through the game. You might hit a wall or two but you'll get over it and when you do that sense of achievement feels great.
Sekiro is probably a good example. It holds your hand to some extent and even lets you revive 2-3 times (at certain points) but don't expect an easy ride. It will challenge you but 99% of the game is reasonable. The final boss fight...that's another story. That dick is the toughest boss fight I've played.
I wonder if the Souls genre would have taken off like it did if there was an easy mode from the start.
TheShocker
Member
Depends on the game. Souls games….no. Anything else. Sure why not. I’ve had to lower the difficulty on a handful of games in the past couple years. Especially if I wanted to get through the story so I could move on.
three_muffins
Member
I was not talking about the developers. I'm talking about people like you who keep defending games with less options and more people who are excluded from playing games according to their abilities.
Makes no sense to me
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Like it or not there are games that entirely designed aground one difficulty, this type of games will appeal to some but not to others but you also have the option to play other games that have multiple difficulty setting.
Warablo
Member
I'm not even talking Souls game really. It just seems like devs have a hard time balancing difficulty levels. I think its easier for a dev to find that perfect balance when they don't have to worry about them.
Overall I want to play it like how the devs wanted to design the game, but I guess I don't want a cake walk either.
TrebleShot
Member
Yes , I am 34 and don’t have Time to get gud or replay the same encounter 30 times, I want to enjoy a fair challenge but not feel like I need to invest my life into it.
Elden Ring
Returnal
Two games that do not respect your time on their native difficulty so please allow me to play it on an easier mode and crank it up once I get a good feel for it.
Maybe that’s why I got my gaming PC to mod Elden ring to easy mode
Elden Ring
Returnal
Two games that do not respect your time on their native difficulty so please allow me to play it on an easier mode and crank it up once I get a good feel for it.
Maybe that’s why I got my gaming PC to mod Elden ring to easy mode
three_muffins
Member
Again what do you gain from defending less options in games?
You clearly weren't. My point is why are their choices less important?
Clearly it was a smart decision by FromSoftware since they started a very popular genre by not giving in.
Makes no sense to me why people whine about a few games possibly being too hard for them to beat. There's thousands of easy games they could play instead.
I don't really get the time argument. There's plenty of easy games that can take you 80+ hours to beat. Should they offer a shorter story so busy people can enjoy them?Yes , I am 34 and don’t have Time to get gud or replay the same encounter 30 times, I want to enjoy a fair challenge but not feel like I need to invest my life into it.
Elden Ring
Returnal
Two games that do not respect your time on their native difficulty so please allow me to play it on an easier mode and crank it up once I get a good feel for it.
Maybe that’s why I got my gaming PC to mod Elden ring to easy mode
Last edited:
ClanOfNone
Member
I think Pathfinder 2 and a few others do this very well. In P2 you can customize a ton of difficulty options. You can make it damn near impossible, or you can dial it down to where the combat practically plays itself, and all points in-between.
Radical Dreamer
Member
Dude you're pathetic. Then dont play these games if you think they waste your time lmao.Yes , I am 34 and don’t have Time to get gud or replay the same encounter 30 times, I want to enjoy a fair challenge but not feel like I need to invest my life into it.
Elden Ring
Returnal
Two games that do not respect your time on their native difficulty so please allow me to play it on an easier mode and crank it up once I get a good feel for it.
Maybe that’s why I got my gaming PC to mod Elden ring to easy mode
Radical Dreamer
Member
Cut it off because everything goes over your head anyways.
"Excluded from games due to their abilities"
Dude can you imagine me writing na email to guitar producers because i'm "excluded" from playing mad riffs due to my abilities? They need to make easier guitars xD
You people are ridiculous.
And I love this over-dramatization. Excluded.
And honestly to me most of you guys whining about lack of difficulty levels are just lazy fucks. There are plenty of people with various disabilities that manage to play hardest games out there (+ competetive, just look ul Gajda in Tekken) yet they dont seem to whine that much about its. Its always from the crowd of "dude i dont have 50hours to try kill a boss bro i got family" with this implication that whoever manages to beat it is a shut-in retard playing games all day long and not working.
Rykan
Member
You can probably write a novel about how bad this analogy is. It's insane that you actually posted this and thought that this made sense. And then have the gall to call other people "Ridiculous". Unreal.
Create new option. "Easy mode". Reduce damage taken by 25%. There, I've just designed an easy mode. No need to credit me though, This is just how nearly every other game in existence does it. It never ceases to amaze me what kind of bad arguments soulslike fans come up with to excuse having more options when nearly every other game has it, instead of just acknowledging that the ONLY REASON souls like games don't have difficulty modes is because of Marketing.
That's all there is to it.
Last edited:
TintoConCasera
I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
Sure dude just modify some variables and fuck any kind of balance or fun.
You are right on thing tho: there's no need to credit you for such a retarded take.
Rykan
Member
ah yes this oh so mythical Balance of "soulslike" games that makes them incapable of implanting something that nearly every other game has, only made more funny by the fact that Souls games aren't any better balanced than other games. Go ahead and explain how this completely optional mode would ruin "Any kind of balance or fun", when it works for literally every other combat focused video game.
Last edited:
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Videogames used to be punishing and hard to finish.
That doesn't make them GOOD, that was just because they were arcade games or made by legacy arcade game developers, and their main source of funds is making the player die as fast and as frequent as possible. Some arcade games even create sources of unavoidable damage so you CAN'T perfect it. The entire existence of finite lives in video games was invented for this purpose.
(Interesting that IGA of Castlevania was quoted to want all his Transovania games to be possible to finish on 1 hp. That bosses should be possible to defeat without getting hit if you learn the pattern. That is something that rewards the player for playing, which is a key to a good "console game".)
Gamers from that era thus think being good gamers means being so much better than everyone else that they can finish a hard game most other people can't play. That by default most people shouldn't even be allowed to finish a game.
But then game developers realized that making games on consoles is different. That making games hard to finish doesn't earn them any more money anymore. So now it is no longer about beating a player to death over and over, but about making sure the player had a fun time playing all the way through. Because if most players can't see the final level then why even bother making the final level?
Making multiple difficulty settings is the wrong question. Because there is no right difficulty. But I find the idea that one WANTS other people to be unable to play a game to completion, especialoly single player games, to be rude. It isn't your game, they can play what they want. Even with exploits and cheats. As long as it is single player it isn't your problem.
That doesn't make them GOOD, that was just because they were arcade games or made by legacy arcade game developers, and their main source of funds is making the player die as fast and as frequent as possible. Some arcade games even create sources of unavoidable damage so you CAN'T perfect it. The entire existence of finite lives in video games was invented for this purpose.
(Interesting that IGA of Castlevania was quoted to want all his Transovania games to be possible to finish on 1 hp. That bosses should be possible to defeat without getting hit if you learn the pattern. That is something that rewards the player for playing, which is a key to a good "console game".)
Gamers from that era thus think being good gamers means being so much better than everyone else that they can finish a hard game most other people can't play. That by default most people shouldn't even be allowed to finish a game.
But then game developers realized that making games on consoles is different. That making games hard to finish doesn't earn them any more money anymore. So now it is no longer about beating a player to death over and over, but about making sure the player had a fun time playing all the way through. Because if most players can't see the final level then why even bother making the final level?
Making multiple difficulty settings is the wrong question. Because there is no right difficulty. But I find the idea that one WANTS other people to be unable to play a game to completion, especialoly single player games, to be rude. It isn't your game, they can play what they want. Even with exploits and cheats. As long as it is single player it isn't your problem.
Last edited:
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
But it would be better that they would. There are a lot of gamers that bought a game but they cant play it cous its to difficult for them, and they sell it.
When developers made a mode that even casuals can play theyr game till the end and having a great time with it, that would mean that more gamers would buy they're game, and play it.
So a mode for the "noobs" gamers and a mode for the "normal" gamers and a mode for the "diehard" difficult gamers. Good for the sales of the game for developers and good for all gamers.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
This discussion again, and the only correct answer again is:
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
I'm always on the fence with this debate, on the one hand I don't think that those who really can't get the hand eye coordination to a good place should be made to feel bad, and this is just a leisure activity so what does it matter.
On the other hand, I think that designers should make the best game they can or are able to make. I think some of the best games are ones that I've struggled with.
I also wonder what the equivalent could be, do we need to pause films and have someone pop up to say "remember the murderer had that ring on with the insignia on it? Looks like this person has that insignia on his shirt. I wonder if there's a connection? Hmm. Ok, back to the film!" Should long books be presented as magazine article length abridged versions so people can use less of their leisure time.
I think not everything needs to be for me, or for you. There's only so much time, you can't do everything.
Take a look at achievements lists and see how many people unlock the first couple of achievements and you'll see a surprisingly low percentage of players manage significant progress through games. Most people don't finish them.
If most people get 25% of the way through, Would you be ok with paying $280 on the basis that they'd expect to refund you $210?
On the other hand, I think that designers should make the best game they can or are able to make. I think some of the best games are ones that I've struggled with.
I also wonder what the equivalent could be, do we need to pause films and have someone pop up to say "remember the murderer had that ring on with the insignia on it? Looks like this person has that insignia on his shirt. I wonder if there's a connection? Hmm. Ok, back to the film!" Should long books be presented as magazine article length abridged versions so people can use less of their leisure time.
I think not everything needs to be for me, or for you. There's only so much time, you can't do everything.
Developers/publishers would go out of business, or they'd have to jack the price up.
Take a look at achievements lists and see how many people unlock the first couple of achievements and you'll see a surprisingly low percentage of players manage significant progress through games. Most people don't finish them.
If most people get 25% of the way through, Would you be ok with paying $280 on the basis that they'd expect to refund you $210?
Last edited:
Saber
Gold Member
Yes , I am 34 and don’t have Time to get gud or replay the same encounter 30 times, I want to enjoy a fair challenge but not feel like I need to invest my life into it.
Elden Ring
Returnal
Two games that do not respect your time on their native difficulty so please allow me to play it on an easier mode and crank it up once I get a good feel for it.
Maybe that’s why I got my gaming PC to mod Elden ring to easy mode
If you don't have time, why play games at all?
Its not that the games does not respect your time. Is you that doesn't respect the games time. Why don't you complain about movies being too long then? Or books? Or series? Because in reality, people would say the same. The beauty of enjoying things you like is simply taking your time and open space for them, if you don't wanna thats clearly not the games fault.
Last edited:
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Thanks for making this stupid comparison. It’s actually very important for this debate.
The Marathon des Sables is a physical and mental achievement. It’s a challenge, not entertainment. And however much people take part in it, it’s obvious that the end result can’t be the same for everyone, like in any real-life challenge.
Video games are entertainment, and they take away more of your time compared to most popular entertainment. The average novel is shorter than the average video game these days. And in the time it takes you to finish the average video game, you can see 10+ movies.
Now, what prevents you from reaching the end of a book or a movie?
Nothing!
You can read a book or watch a movie and not understand some, or even most, of it. But nothing prevents you from taking in all of the content. You don’t have periodic checks that lock you out from the content that follows if you fail them. If you’re a 4yo, you’re not gonna get quizzed in the middle of a Disney movie and be forbidden to watch the rest of the movie if you didn’t understand everything you saw.
Why should it be this way for video games? A single, frustrating difficulty level is a relic from a time when total game content was short and devs needed to make the game last longer somehow. We commend that relics from the old times of gaming (like turn-based combat and random encounters) are disappearing, all the time. But noooooo, heaven forbid we get an easy mode in Souls, it’d be like getting my e-peen chopped off! Off with the dirty casuals!
A game takes me more than 20 hours to finish, you bet I’m not complaining if there’s an easy mode. And nobody else should, too.
Btw, so many games are already ridiculously long and unbalanced in normal mode anyway, so all the more reason to make them accessible to any level of skill.
There is zero reason for gatekeeping in video gaming, unless we’re talking multiplayer, and that’s a completely different field.
Boneless
Member
A marathon is a challenge for entertainment, just like some games provide a challenge for entertainment. Something that is rare and difficult to attain can make people feel motivated to achieve this. Whether a marathon, or a game, providing an easy mode takes this challenge and exclusivity away.
Sorry that you are not able to understand this, it's quite a simple concept.
PS: Funny that one of the key ingredients of 2022's GOTY is something you call 'a relic from the past'.
Last edited:
Rykan
Member
Oh it's not that he doesn't understand the concept, it's just that your example is yet another one in a long line of incredibly poor analogies used by souls fans. The goal of a Marathon is the challenge. There is no other difference between just randomly running on your own and participating in the Marathon. That is not the case with video games. You CAN play video games purely for being challenged, but that's not what everyone does.
Last edited:
Boneless
Member
Not everyone runs a marathon purely for being challenged, but who gives a shit? Some activities, are created mainly for the challenge, and will thus not have 'easy modes'. This can be a hard marathon, or a hard game (fromsoft / they are billions / dark and darker).
Let me know if you are still not grasping it, I will happily try and provide an 'easy mode' for the explanation.
Last edited:
Fredrik
Member
Yeah I said this:
But maybe it would work if more people would dare to try a game. Let’s say if Returnal would’ve sold 5 million instead of 1 million.
And some, or even most, would probably not bother asking for a refund.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Cool. Some games can have a marathon difficulty mode as option. Simple as that.
Last edited:
While I generally agree that games should reach as much people as possible, there's only so much you can reach. You don't implement FPS elements in an RTS just to cater shooter fans. Some games are simply for a specific audience.
I simply stay away from overly difficult games. But when I play them, they have something to it, that I have to find a way to overcome the obstacles, because it IS possible, and the solution isn't to turn down the difficulty; there's no shortcut.
I wouldn't want that in every game, especially highly story-driven games where I want to progress in story and just be having a good time. In Elden Ring, however, the difficulty is very fitting because it's not a game you play (solely) for the narrative. And it also offers many ways to overcome said obstacles and challenges.
So overall I'd say not EVERY game MUST have an easy mode.
I simply stay away from overly difficult games. But when I play them, they have something to it, that I have to find a way to overcome the obstacles, because it IS possible, and the solution isn't to turn down the difficulty; there's no shortcut.
I wouldn't want that in every game, especially highly story-driven games where I want to progress in story and just be having a good time. In Elden Ring, however, the difficulty is very fitting because it's not a game you play (solely) for the narrative. And it also offers many ways to overcome said obstacles and challenges.
So overall I'd say not EVERY game MUST have an easy mode.
ByWatterson
Member
LOL, no.
Nobody puts Miyazaki in a corner.
Nobody puts Miyazaki in a corner.
Rykan
Member
Yes they do. That is quite literally the purpose of a Marathon. The Marathon in itself isn't the activity. The actual activity is running. The Marathon is just the specific format or challenge that the activity takes place in. You can run for as much or as little as you want at any given time outside of the Marathon. None of that applies to video games because you can't play a souls game outside of souls game.
So far I rank this Analogy number 3 of bad analogies. It's slightly more ridiculous than "why don't you complain about movies/tv shows" but it's still behind "Imagine if I asked for an easier guitar",
Insisting that your game MUST BE experienced as a challenge for no reason is absurd. Offering a completely optional easier difficulty mode takes nothing away from the standard difficulty. The only reason it's not there is so people can brag and meme about it as free publicity. That's it. You're not actually defending a game, you're defending a marketing tactic.
Last edited:
GamesDontSuck
Member
Exactly this.
You want anyone to play it. Even if they have never touched a game in their life. You want them to enjoy the experience. Become a fan. Tell their friends how good it is. Buy the sequel.
So Yes, op. Every game should have an easy mode.
Last edited:
Boneless
Member
Plenty of people who run the marathon just for fun and never finish. Yes you can run outside of a marathon, but you cannot recreate an experience like many marathons. In any case, this is just one example to allow you to imagine others. Ninja Warrior, climbing the K2, shall we just install a lift to the top there to make it more accessible to people?
There are also puzzles sold that are incredibly difficult, do you think these have an easy mode or should have one? No, because some things are created for the challenge and the rewarding feeling you get for finishing it. News flash, humans are competetive beings, bragging rights are important. The fact that you may not be competetive at all may just be your thing.
Last edited:
speckz
Member
Yes, because some of us have disabilities, challenging or ultra-hard mode makes the game impossible to play and enjoy.
Also, I feel like, in 2023, essential accessibility for games is a must; see https://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/basic/.
If you are a prominent AAA game developer, You should be doing https://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/intermediate/ at the very least if not, https://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/full-list/.
Also, I feel like, in 2023, essential accessibility for games is a must; see https://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/basic/.
If you are a prominent AAA game developer, You should be doing https://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/intermediate/ at the very least if not, https://gameaccessibilityguidelines.com/full-list/.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Excellent point.
I think the gamers who support one difficulty or hard only games think everyone have inherently great reflexes or able bodied. So to them a gamer wanting more options is just lazy or “git gud bud”
I’d like to see how many of them are brave enough to say to gamers with disabilities and poor motor skills to suck it up and play Dark Souls like the rest of them. Not one.
Last edited:
Philfrag
Banned
Difficulty mode discourse is the worst discourse. Let developers / artists give you the experience they intended to design. If you don't enjoy the experience then don't support the creators in the future. You're allowed to think something is bad without having your feelings validated in some broader discussion about consumer rights. If devs want to reach a broad market then I think that's great, but not every dev should be expected of that. The fact that Dark Souls doesn't have an easy mode is awesome, the fact that The Witcher 3 has a mode just so you can enjoy the story without a challenge is also awesome. An industry with both is just awesome. Diversity is awesome.
Boneless
Member
You don't suck it up, you play something else, plenty of games as alternatives.
rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Yes. More diverse difficulty OPTIONS is awesome.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
If a gamer wants to beat a hard game go ahead.
Other gamers beating the game at an easier difficulty level makes zero difference to the gamer wanting a higher challenge.
If any gamer who plays on hard or expert difficulty feels bad because random gamers they don’t even know play on easy or normal modes, they got issues.
I get it. Beating a FROM game is some kind of lifetime achievement award worth bragging to the world. You can still do that if the game has difficulty options. Just tell people you didn’t beat the game on easy mode.
Drizzlehell
Banned
Idk, I don't have much need for an easy mode but for those who are less fortunate or just don't play games as much as I do, having more accessibility options would be great. The kind of gatekeeping that you see coming from people who still unironically make "git gud" posts 11 years after this meme became old hat is just dumb and juvenile.