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Anita Sarkeesian "Tropes vs. Women" Video will come out today [out now, link in OP]

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The success lies in the attention she has brought to the issue. I'm sure if you asked her, she'd say that substantive discussions about the topic was something she hoped would happen.

No shit she would say that. In fact, she probably did hope for it ahead of time. The issue is where hope and productive contribution diverge. I don't find a great deal of value in campaigns that simply drum up 'awareness'; it's almost a cliche at this point. Since people have managed to turn that into a great discussion, I'm glad they have.
 
No shit she would say that. In fact, she probably did hope for it ahead of time. The issue is where hope and productive contribution diverge. I don't find a great deal of value in campaigns that simply drum up 'awareness'; it's almost a cliche at this point. Since people have managed to turn that into a great discussion, I'm glad they have.

You don't find value in campaigns that simply drum up awareness. Okay. Please don't tell me you're one of those people who think she should make a game.
 
I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think the announcement of her Kickstarter and the reaction it received didn't push gender portrayals in games as a major topic of discussion, especially in mainstream media.

I honestly hadn't heard of this Kickstarter/Project until this thread was constantly on the front page of GAF.
 
You don't find value in campaigns that simply drum up awareness. Okay. Please don't tell me you're one of those people who think she should make a game.

Or just dig even the tiniest bit deeper with her research? She's got a masters, she clearly knows how.

Again, for the hundredth time, I'm waiting to see what she has for the other videos, but this first one was basically fluff.
 
Or just dig even the tiniest bit deeper with her research? She's got a masters, she clearly knows how.

Again, for the hundredth time, I'm waiting to see what she has for the other videos, but this first one was basically fluff.

Tell me what would have been a satisfactory level of research for you.
 
You don't find value in campaigns that simply drum up awareness. Okay. Please don't tell me you're one of those people who think she should make a game.

No, though I think more women should make games. I'm one of those people who think she should do a better, more competent analysis (I'm aware the full thing isn't here yet, but even this preliminary thing is lacking). And that the flaws in her method are worth pointing out. For one, as many here have noted, the 'analysis' side of things is pretty lacking, and for another, she glosses over some pretty major topics- like cross-cultural differences in gender tropes, relations and so on- when she consciously chooses a set of mostly Japanese games, many of which are made by a single company, and doesn't give an accounting for this selection. Instead it's just glossed over - here be videogames, look at these videogames I picked out of a hat. It's just bad method.

It's interesting how defensive people get when they strongly identify with a political cause or a societal cause and really want all success to flow to those they perceive as fellow travelers.

There have been some pretty fantastic posts on this issue that I'm not doing justice to in a quick summation; it's a long thread.
 
Yeah, you're right. I haven't seen any cultural changes at all in the 18 hours since the video was posted!
The problem isnt that she didn't change anything, the problem is that she didn't even offer up any discussion of which things could have been changed. I've been in multiple threads like this here and other forums, talking about the same things over and over and they never go anywhere. This one wont either, and its because her analysis is far too basic to spark any kind of deep or interesting discussion, which in turn would help to remedy the problem.

She's not offering up anything people don't already know, so people in this thread are going to continue talking about things they already know. If the rest of her videos are like this then every thread is just going to be people going back and forth for 60 pages typing "ITS A PROBLEM" and "WHO CARES?" over and over because these videos don't offer up anything new to discuss.

The people in this thread were talking about the same shit before this video was put up as they are after. And that's terrible. It means the video didn't say anything
important enough for us to discuss. Its not
like we didn't know that Mario saves the princess. Its not like we didn't know these tropes already existed in games, so a half hour video about how they exist is a pointless waste of potential.
 
Or just dig even the tiniest bit deeper with her research? She's got a masters, she clearly knows how.

Again, for the hundredth time, I'm waiting to see what she has for the other videos, but this first one was basically fluff.

Could someone please spell out what they mean when they say she should have done more research? I keep seeing this complaint repeated, but I have literally NO IDEA what you're complaining about.

She showed dozens of examples of the damsel in distress trope. Does anyone know how many games she reviewed to got those examples? Does anyone know how much time was spent picking which were the best examples for her purpose (which, again, is a basic introduction to the trope, something for mass consumption (NOT a academic paper filled with jargon that would be ignored))?

So, again, what research did she not do that she should have done? What did she fail to bring out in her introductory overview of the common use of the damsel in distress motif in video games? If you can come up with ANY examples, how would those examples have been more meaningful for a mass consumption audience than Mario, Zelda, Snake, Double Dragon, etc. - the extremely popular, well known game series? Please keep in mind, she has already said she was not looking at the last ten years in part one, as that will be covered in part two.

I eagerly await any answer.
 
How does anyone know whether or not her work is bad? I didn't know people on here have seen all the episodes. This video was just the introduction.
 
Tell me what would have been a satisfactory level of research for you.

There's very little actual insight or critical thought on her part. She got the whole sequence of events with the Miyamoto/Popeye/Donkey Kong thing wrong, so her basic fact checking is lacking (this is a problem with other videos of hers as well). She doesn't cite any of her sources, either in the video credits or on her homepage. And if the video's going to be full of talking heads, then it would've been nice to get some other experts on mass media/gender issues to speak on camera and would've lent more credibility to what she's saying.

Unless I'm mistaken and this was never meant to be an actual serious research project in the first place. It's broad, yes, but good research isn't supposed to be broad.
 
It isn't an intro to a series exactly since it is an episode based series and this one episode was supposed to deal with exactly one topic, sure it would definitely be more fair to judge it once part 2 of this one particular episode comes out but so far it isn't looking like quality will spike.

Also good research should go beyond the mainstream to prove a point, appealing to the layman would be nice to spread the message, but video games are enjoyed by a lot of people. Some of whom are actually in the field of research and they will not be afraid to call you out on poor research. But I don't think her choice of examples was bad, I just think she should have explored them a little further. The double dragon one in particular had a lot of room to explore. Instead all she did was get angry and disgusted at it. That's absolute shit presentation if you ask me.


It basically is an introduction to the series (and part one at that). She spent time going into the very beginnings of where the trope was introduced and how it was used, which is what she needed to do to establish credibility on the subject matter to both an audience familiar with the topic as well as unfamiliar.

Spouting off random pc games -or western ones- that used the same trope as Mario and Zelda, would have only served to alienate people from the larger issue at hand. Her findings come across a lot stronger, by opening the eyes of the viewer to subject matter they might be (are) familiar with.

It's not like she was dumbing anything down or speaking straight to the laymen. It's damn near a fact that those two series are some of the most influential of all times.

The double dragon one is what it is. What needs to be said? Your girl gets knocked the fuck out and you save her. I think using the remakes were in poor taste, because they are indeed remakes and the original point was made with the title that came out first.

I do agree that she could do more, but I'm not seeing this as some failure of galactic proportions...
 
There's very little actual insight or critical thought on her part. She got the whole sequence of events with the Miyamoto/Popeye/Donkey Kong thing wrong, so her basic fact checking is lacking (this is a problem with other videos of hers as well). She doesn't cite any of her sources, either in the video credits or on her homepage. And if the video's going to be full of talking heads, then it would've been nice to get some other experts on mass media/gender issues to speak on camera and would've lent more credibility to what she's saying.

Unless I'm mistaken and this was never meant to be an actual serious research project in the first place. It's broad, yes, but good research isn't supposed to be broad.

I'm pretty sure you're mistaken.
 
If anybody in here complaining about the quality of her scholarship can recommend some quality journal articles that examine this specific topic, I'd very much like to read them. No sarcasm.
 
There's very little actual insight or critical thought on her part. She got the whole sequence of events with the Miyamoto/Popeye/Donkey Kong thing wrong, so her basic fact checking is lacking (this is a problem with other videos of hers as well). She doesn't cite any of her sources, either in the video credits or on her homepage. And if the video's going to be full of talking heads, then it would've been nice to get some other experts on mass media/gender issues to speak on camera and would've lent more credibility to what she's saying.

Unless I'm mistaken and this was never meant to be an actual serious research project in the first place. It's broad, yes, but good research isn't supposed to be broad.

This isn't a formal research project and she specifically mentions that the first video is a high level overview.
 
No, though I think more women should make games. I'm one of those people who think she should do a better, more competent analysis (I'm aware the full thing isn't here yet, but even this preliminary thing is lacking). And that the flaws in her method are worth pointing out. For one, as many here have noted, the 'analysis' side of things is pretty lacking, and for another, she glosses over some pretty major topics- like cross-cultural differences in gender tropes, relations and so on- when she consciously chooses a set of mostly Japanese games, many of which are made by a single company, and doesn't give an accounting for this selection. Instead it's just glossed over - here be videogames, look at these videogames I picked out of a hat. It's just bad method.

It's interesting how defensive people get when they strongly identify with a political cause or a societal cause and really want all success to flow to those they perceive as fellow travelers.

There have been some pretty fantastic posts on this issue that I'm not doing justice to in a quick summation; it's a long thread.

I think the method is fine for what this series was meant to do, and I think complaints about the games featured seem premature considering that she hasn't even finished discussing that single trope yet.
 
this series is essential because videogames are heavily gendered, exclusivistic bullshit created and curated by the most damaged brand of male nerd, and the culture around it has become predictably entitled, entrenched, and toxic.

seriously, 80% of you xy grotesqueries fear the day games have the titties covered and the contrived female personalities written with a DISREGARD for the expectations of our gender.
 
Could someone please spell out what they mean when they say she should have done more research? I keep seeing this complaint repeated, but I have literally NO IDEA what you're complaining about.

She showed dozens of examples of the damsel in distress trope. Does anyone know how many games she reviewed to got those examples?

I don't think you know what research really is then, of the sort that would be relevant here. (in critical theory). It's not a matter of simply collecting patterns and presenting them and then saying that the patterns are oppressive or sexist.

You're trivializing what she herself does in her job. And also, you don't need academic jargon to get interesting points across (and the jargon is ridiculously excessive and unnecessary in cultural studies disciplines, I agree)

this series is essential because videogames are heavily gendered, exclusivistic bullshit created and curated by the most damaged brand of male nerd, and the culture around it has become predictably entitled, entrenched, and toxic.

seriously, 80% of you xy grotesqueries fear the day games have the titties covered and the contrived female personalities written with a DISREGARD for the expectations of our gender.

lol
 
this series is essential because videogames are heavily gendered, exclusivistic bullshit created and curated by the most damaged brand of male nerd, and the culture around it has become predictably entitled, entrenched, and toxic.

seriously, 80% of you xy grotesqueries fear the day games have the titties covered and the contrived female personalities written with a DISREGARD for the expectations of our gender.

This is the realist shit he ever wrote.
 
The way she drones on in the video makes it really boring. Couldn't even get through it. I like the idea and hopefully the other ones will be better.
 
There are clearly very few people in this thread who understand the costs of a video production, let alone one that will potentially produce 6-8 hours of content.
 
this series is essential because videogames are heavily gendered, exclusivistic bullshit created and curated by the most damaged brand of male nerd, and the culture around it has become predictably entitled, entrenched, and toxic.

seriously, 80% of you xy grotesqueries fear the day games have the titties covered and the contrived female personalities written with a DISREGARD for the expectations of our gender.

Oh god no it's Drakengard all over again!
 
I'm not singling you out for this post, but this post is a good example of a lot of things I've seen in this thread since last night, and I wanted to over them.

First, many have said "All that money for this?," which is basically your same complaint of poor research, writing, and delivery. I don't know how, after watching this particular video (which is what this thread is about), anyone could question her research, writing, and delivery. She clearly went through dozens, probably into the hundreds of old games, looking through the stories, getting clips, and editing them into a coherent 20 minute video documentary. To the people saying, all that money for this? - do you have any idea how hard or how much time something like that takes? Given that this is part 1 of 1 of 12 videos, I can see that she put a lot of time, money, and effort into it. Her delivery was very good (and I imagine wasn't done all in one take! As an aside, I wonder if there's overlap between people saying "I could make this crappy video for 500 bucks in my basement!" and people who eagerly listen to a podcast of a bunch of dudes shooting the breeze about video games - something you really could do in your own basement with a few microphones. Anyway).

One of the other things I highlighted from your post was that many, many people have taken this video as some kind of "argument." I really don't know why anyone thinks this, but obviously some people have taken this video as everything from an argument that Nintendo sucks! to Crystal is a bad character! Dudes, she's not making an argument. This is basically a survey class, an introduction to a particular trope that is frequent in the video game industry - the damsel in distress model. She found significant examples to discuss more deeply, and ALSO showed many, many other games from many different developers that used the trope. She is not making an argument at all (unless you think the following statements are debatable - 1) The damsel in distress trope is common in video games, 2) this trope can be problematic, because of the subject/object dichotomy she lays out).

So no, she's not going to look into the Mario RPG's to say, Peach is really a well developed character! Or hey, look, Crystal isn't just a damsel in distress, because look at the alternate endings of later Star Fox games! That's not the point. Those are just notable examples used to illustrate the subject she is discussing. She's not attacking those characters, or Nintendo, or video games. Hell, I was kind of sad that she had to make so many pre-apologies in the damn video, going so far as to show herself as a kid playing Nintendo games. She did everything she could to say, this is just feminist criticism internet dudes, I like video games, I like these particular games, I'm not saying video games are bad or that video gamers are bad people. So of course people disregard all that.

I wanted to circle back around to another point really quickly. Look, writing an introductory survey of a course is hard. Making a video of that is even harder, especially once you're talking about well done video editing. I think she did a good job, and based upon the reactions in this thread, I don't know how anyone could say what she's saying is obvious or so what? To those saying so what, did you watch the video? Did you see where said why damsels in distress can be a problem? She didn't hit the point repeatedly - presumably she trusts somewhat in the intelligence of the audience. Maybe she over-estimated that, or under-estimated the knee-jerk reactions.

Quick edit: Because a lot of people seemed to miss it, she discusses why the DiD trope is problematic (I'm pretty sure that was her word choice - she wasn't even damning it, just saying, hey, this might not be good). The problem is that in typical form, a woman is reduced to a powerless object, and the woman's disempowerment is used to empower the male (who is usually the player character and the subject of the narrative). She doesn't get into the social science of it, but it kind of naturally follows that you may not want impressionable minds repeatedly being told the story that women are weak and powerless to save themselves (from situations which, as she shows, male video game characters are able to use brains or brawn to effortlessly escape).

*I'm not going to re-watch the video now, but I'm 99% certain Twilight Princess was shown in the video.

a speech, regardless of whether it's pursuasive, or informative, is an argument, atleast according to my english porfs, if it has a purpose. Her speeches have a purpose, to inform us about these tropes, so the argument here is to not only inform us, but to convince us it's there. But she's being counter by those who aren't insulting her. I honestly want to help her. This is an issue that needs to be solved, but she's not going deep enough to solve it, at least not with this (or her previous) videos.
 
Because it serves no other purpose but to discredit her and the series? When someone brings up the money she received, what greater point are they really trying to make? That she didn't need 150k? No shit, she didn't ask for it either. It's baffling that the topic keeps coming up.

We're going to have to invent an argumentative fallacy for this aren't we.

"Ad Calcitro Satus" or "To the Kick Start".

"To attack a crowdfunded product based on the accusation that the producer received too much funding, regardless of the funding level's impact on the quality of the finished item."
 
The problem isnt that she didn't change anything, the problem is that she didn't even offer up any discussion of which things could have been changed. I've been in multiple threads like this here and other forums, talking about the same things over and over and they never go anywhere. This one wont either, and its because her analysis is far too basic to spark any kind of deep or interesting discussion, which in turn would help to remedy the problem.

She's not offering up anything people don't already know, so people in this thread are going to continue talking about things they already know. If the rest of her videos are like this then every thread is just going to be people going back and forth for 60 pages typing "ITS A PROBLEM" and "WHO CARES?" over and over because these videos don't offer up anything new to discuss.

The people in this thread were talking about the same shit before this video was put up as they are after. And that's terrible. It means the video didn't say anything important enough for us to discuss. Its not like we didn't know that Mario saves the princess. Its not like we didn't know these tropes already existed in games, so a half hour video about how they exist is a pointless waste of potential.

Or, alternatively, it means the content of the video is and was always going to be irrelevant to the tenor of the discussion in here.

But more to the point, I'm not sure why you think the first video in a series designed to be a dozen plus entires is supposed to posit a solution to the problem it attempts to present.
 
I think we'd all like to see a more in-depth and intelligent analysis on sexism in games and how the gaming industry can improve. But I don't understand why people are knocking down this first video for failing to achieve some lofty goal. It was never meant to be some revolutionary, eye-opening piece. It's pretty much what I expected of it.
 
It basically is an introduction to the series (and part one at that). She spent time going into the very beginnings of where the trope was introduced and how it was used, which is what she needed to do to establish credibility on the subject matter to both an audience familiar with the topic as well as unfamiliar.

Giving the background on the trope doesn't make it an introduction to the entire series. It's reasonable to assume she will give a similar opening to each trope.
 
Isn't it a little funny to anyone how the majority of games she discussed were Japanese in origin and yet she talks about their impact on gender from a western point of view instead of going for a cultural relativism approach?

And the argument "but womens rights should be equal everywhere" doesn't quite hold up, it is similar to the case of how a nike factory paying 25 cents an hour to workers in china might look awful to us but to the people there it is finally a chance for them to earn something.

Relativism is important. She didn't even seem to consider it, not once did she even add the insert "but these are japanese developers who have rather different views on gender roles".

It ceases to be cultural relativism when Nintendo & others regularly market the games for sale outside of Japan. It's not like we're importing Zelda games from Japan. If they want massive, international appeal, they a going to be held to higher standards.

This shit has no purpose in video games, most of her ideas on how to fix this completely GUT and alter existing franchises. An adventure starring Zelda (not the CD-i one)? Please, if Zelda was the only playable character in a legend of zelda game it would needlessly flip around the entire series, Link wouldn't even show up since his character doesn't speak and to change that would probably be more harmful to the series than a game starring zelda. Therefore it would become relegated to being a spin off which is something she doesn't want, yet hilariously all of her poorly thought out "fixes" seem to lead us there.

This speaks volumes about your misogyny and lack of imagination. I'd ask you to explain why you think Link wouldn't be present in a story that's explicitly about three characters reappearing through time...but who would actually want to hear anymore of this?


Also she doesn't get that a solid portion of the games she spent time talking about were aimed at children, and you know why save the damsel is popular? Because it is safely marketable to children, you can down play the grit and keep the mood upbeat and light hearted in a game where the premise is "the princess has been kidnapped, go save her!"

And honestly to say that it is a harmful notion to instill in children is wrong, sure everyone probably remembers in the play ground some kid tried to argue girls are weaker than boys but that's okay because they're kids. You can't expect or should expect a child to think with the impunity of an adult. Let them think think that and they will eventually realize that thinking that was ostracizes them from society. In fact the save the princess trope actually does a far better job of instilling the desire in children that they should be a hero, and being good is the ultimate point of the story!

You mean, ostracized from society because of the same feminist ideology you're saying has no purpose? You just gave it a purpose! And to say that instilling sexist ideas in people from childhood has no longterm effect has to be willful ignorance.



Yet she would never focus on that aspect, because she has an extremely biased perspective. This video has shown me one thing, you can't and should never talk about something from a single perspective especially when you have a $150k budget to work with.

She has no obligation to air out every perspective, no matter the money, and I'm pretty sure the perspective of this project was largely understood by anyone who donated to it.
 
The way she drones on in the video makes it really boring. Couldn't even get through it. I like the idea and hopefully the other ones will be better.

well, it's a good fit with her dour, preachy brand of feminism, so there is some consistency.

We're going to have to invent an argumentative fallacy for this aren't we.

"Ad Calcitro Satus" or "To the Kick Start".

"To attack a crowdfunded product based on the accusation that the producer received too much funding, regardless of the funding level's impact on the quality of the finished item."

Is this similar to the idea that a company made too much profit on a product?

It ceases to be cultural relativism when Nintendo & others regularly market the games for sale outside of Japan. It's not like we're importing Zelda games from Japan. If they want massive, international appeal, they a going to be held to higher standards.

No it doesn't. Buying the products of another culture doesn't erase the fact that they have a different history and origin. They are products of different gender tropes and norms. Ignoring this basically means you think basic gender tropes are invariant across significantly different cultures to the point where it isn't even a major point of analysis. And what the fuck about the bolded, it's like you don't even know what's being discussed. 'higher standards'? Time for me to break out the rhetoric about Eurocentric narcissism.
 
this series is essential because videogames are heavily gendered, exclusivistic bullshit created and curated by the most damaged brand of male nerd, and the culture around it has become predictably entitled, entrenched, and toxic.

seriously, 80% of you xy grotesqueries fear the day games have the titties covered and the contrived female personalities written with a DISREGARD for the expectations of our gender.
Yo damn. Lol
 
This discussion has been disappointing. The video defines DiD, gives a handful of examples (I know a handful more are comping in part 2), and makes the claim that this is mostly bad. But it doesn't attempt to explain why it is bad with any sort of depth (scientific research, social studies, interviews with experts). The video doesn't attempt to explain why this trope is utilized (lazy and simplistic story telling? Sexist game industry? Economic reasons?). The video flat out ignores counter examples of the DiD even in the few series it talked about in depth. Why don't handhelds count?

Finally, so far, the video has not provided any sort of "good" way to portray the rescue of a throwaway character. Is Donkey Kong Country 2 good because it is a female rescuing a helpless male or is this still lazy story telling? What about all the men rescuing men? It seems to me like cheap story writing is the problem here. The developers need to give the player the simplest possible motivation to start experiencing the game play so they throw in a throwaway plot device. But, I am by no means an expert and desire more information. Th video comes way short of giving information so I was hopeful that Gaf would present it. Several other people have brought up the points from above much more eloquently than me. And, almost none of these posts have led to any engaging conversation or rebuttals. There is a lot of "Gaf is terrible" and "Gaf is as bad as youtube" but very few people who have similar beliefs to Anita on this topic are trying to engage in conversation. Maybe Anita is not the person to lead this topic, as has been suggested. And maybe Gaf is not a place to discuss it with any depth. If so, where then can I go?
 
Or, alternatively, it means the content of the video is and was always going to be irrelevant to the tenor of the discussion in here.

But more to the point, I'm not sure why you think the first video in a series designed to be a dozen plus entires is supposed to posit a solution to the problem it attempts to present.
I'm going to assume you haven't read my other posts in this thread where mention that I hope very much that her analysis goes deeper the further into the series we get. The thing that makes me worry that it wont is that her previous work was just as simple and basic so there is no indication that there will be any improvement.

She's already made the point that her next video will do the same as this one, but will
tackle modern titles. Add the fact that these videos all touch on different tropes then it becomes worrysome that while she may cover a lot of ground, that she wont scratch very far past the surface of any of them.
 
she's not doing this to offer solutions. she's doing this to bring an uncomfortable discussion to the fore, where you guilty, defensive shitheels have to confront it. and, maybe, just maybe, the more sage and enlightened among us will take the fruits of this discussion back to our day jobs as developers and critics in the game industry, look at the sexist shit we'd been creating or justifying, and cover up the tits and write the text that has fuck all to do with male desires and fantasies. or not. but not for want of anita trying.
 
she's not doing this to offer solutions. she's doing this to bring an uncomfortable discussion to the fore, where you guilty, defensive shitheels have to confront it. and, maybe, just maybe, the more sage and enlightened among us will take the fruits of this discussion back to our day jobs as developers and critics in the game industry, look at the sexist shit we'd been creating or justifying, and cover up the tits and write the text that has fuck all to do with male desires and fantasies. or not. but not for want of anita trying.

perfect
 
After watching this all I could think was "well duh."

Videogames were initially designed to appeal to young, immature boys, and I don't intend to use the word "immature" as necessarily a horrible thing. I mean that the NES was designed as a children's toy. Zelda, Mario, DK, all designed to appeal to kids under the age of 12 and mostly appeal to boys who could only understand simplistic themes. Hence tropes.

What I find to be really absurd about all of this is the notion that Shigeru Miyamoto had any sort of influence on how men, such as myself, view women because I played his videogames throughout my entire life. She must think this or she wouldn't have mentioned his name and his work so much. These tropes influence people in the wrong ways right? Okay, but how much? It must be minuscule compared to other real life factors.

My mother and my two sisters dominant that area of influence on my life. They were my examples of women. Some men have bad examples women in their life and if they end up being disrespectful to women and are generally misogynist, look to that area of their life, not their videogames.

Princess Peach? Zelda? the panty girl in Double Dragon....I'm sorry but I can't help but laugh. I have vivid memories of laughing at that when I was kid because even at a tender age I knew it was a silly little bit of gratuitous perversion. So what?

This is why I find this level of media criticism to be such woefully self important tripe. It is basically the same as the nimrods who attribute real life gun violence to videogames gun violence.
 
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