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An Industry Out of Touch

velociraptor

Junior Member
People say AAA budgets are crazy, but they also say Mid-Tier budgets are lazy.
Budgets don't determine game quality. Developers need to be realistic and keep within their respective budgets.

What is wrong with mid-tier budgets? Gears Of War, Uncharted 1,2, Demon Souls, Dark Sounds, Borderlands etc don't have massive budgets yet are all quality titles.
 

8byte

Banned
Some gamers get too involved and forget that these companies are businesses and need to make money. Fan appreciation doesn't keep your doors open. Look at Platinum, they make great games but are going from project to project hoping they can stay afloat.

The market has gone this way because that is where the money is.



Making videos is fine but getting paid by using other peoples IP isn't. Trying to cover over this fact by calling it free advertising is stupid. If the youtubers want to make money off licensed content then they need to buy a license like in every other digital market.

The problem is these development studios must first adhere to strict release guidelines and pricing models as set forth by their publisher. They aren't given much flexibility, outside of simply making the game (and doing it within a set period of time).

As to media sharing with other IPs...I'm attempting to hide over the use of an IP for profit. I'm simply saying that the approach isn't forward thinking, it's reactionary. Publishers should be working WITH Google to make things more viable for all parties. If you could simply select the publisher for the game you were using, and a cut of those advertising dollars goes to the publisher, then things would be better met than simply remaining rigid and out of touch, saying "No, you cannot do this at all." Particularly when you still openly welcome users to do it absolutely free.

Okay so you present a giant list of closed developers as part of your evidence for this, but which of the studios that were closed were doing all, or even most of the above, versus the ones that are still open and alive and known to be doing so?

Well, I can probably try to go through the list, but I'll instead say that a bigger reason they went under is publisher rigidity. Poor pricing structure, short development cycles, and publisher involvement in product creation / IP management. Low budget titles should be priced accordingly, not sent to die competing against titles with huge player followings. You don't go to Wal-Mart and buy Sams Choice products for the same price you would Kellogg, Tyson, Wonder, or any other brand product. The gaming industry needs to adjust.

Main problem is that you want graphic quality to keep increasing?
That will coast more money then a generation then before so budget of a video game gets bigger so less risk is taken because if you invest $40+ Million you can't make to much risk other wise you will end up like THQ.

Cycle repeat.

And it has always been an industry were creative vision and creative freedom have struggled with cost and making money.

+ Please remember that we are the "informed 10% hardcore" of the industry and we can NOT fund the entire industry on our own even if we all both all "good" AAA and smaller games NO games would ever make any money anymore.
We and the publishers NEED the other 90% of the game playing audience to buy the games other wise there wouldn't be anymore video games to begin with.

Investing in tools first and content later would help this. There are things the industry does that are outdated, and not embracing the digital age correctly is one of them. These costs would be significantly lower if things were managed better, and products weren't marketed the same as they were in 1995.

Take that list of dead developers and beside it write down what games it was that they released. Then take a look at what the general feeling from NeoGAF was when they released those games. Most of them will have been met with apathy or derision.

Did the industry kill those developers or did a player base that didn't care about their games kill them?

I would wager that strict pricing models hurt those titles, rather than gamers not caring. If your game cannot compete with a $60 game (and that would / should be evident to every publisher or developer) then do not price it at $60. For all the focus testing the industry does, I would wager they do extremely little to focus test "prices". If you brought in 200 people to play a verticle slice of your title and asked them to tell you their acceptable price range, I think that would be far more useful, as compared to asking them what they think about the game, which ultimately will result in "I want this to be like it is in my favorite game". Useless and a waste of money / time.

Pardon me for asking, but what's a community team (as opposed to a community manager)?

Community managers are usually "solo", as far as I've really seen. There are people behind the scenes responsible for things like websites, video editing for trailers, etc, but they need more presence. Having multiple people managing your forums, twitter and facebook accounts, pumping out more meaningful pre-release content, contests, and community outreach programs...that needs to be handled by a team. There are games / studios out there with dead communities. Handing a few people an additional responsibility, or hiring more people to help manage your community / promote your game on the internet is a better cost to a title than spending millions of dollars to advertise a product that you release annually, IMO. Particularly when you can accomplish the same feats via cheaper, readily available means. However, most studios view this type of transparency / connectivity as "poison" apparently, given how rare it is. They simply have one person gloss over their message boards to find things that they can improve on for some titles / MP component, and move forward from there. In todays day and age, that simply is not sufficient.
 

VariantX

Member
"To compound problems, the industry as a whole seems to be trapped in a "bubble" where the voice of the gamer doesn't exist..."

I agree with alot of what you're saying OP, but I have to take some issue with this particular statement here. Microsoft's policy reversals earlier were directly related to gamers making their voice loud and clear, by not pre-ordering their console while those restricive DRM policies were in place. To the publishers and platform holders, its all talk and disposable outrage from gamers until we shut our wallets and the silence of the cash registers haunt them in their dreams. The industry we have today is just a monster of our own making and the best thing we can do as consumers is just buy and support the types of developers publishers who do make the games with the richness, creativity, and depth that we want out of our products.
 

remnant

Banned
Budgets don't determine game quality. Developers need to be realistic and keep within their respective budgets.

What is wrong with mid-tier budgets? Gears Of War, Uncharted 1,2, Demon Souls, Dark Sounds, Borderlands etc don't have massive budgets yet are all quality titles.
None of those have mid-tier budgets
 

test_account

XP-39C²
This argument never made sense to me. Everything is cheaper with inflation. Everything is better. Did the pay also get better with inflation? Did the living also get better?

If anything, there are far more gamers now than in 1993 with or without inflation.
Everything isnt cheaper with inflation. Once people make more money, the prices of things in general also rises. This is not the case with games however. Games were $60 20-25 years ago, and games are still $60 today.

There are a lot more gamers today indeed as you say, but the developement cost of the games have also increased dramatically. For some its a good advantage (like for Activision and Call of Duty, just to take one example), but for others who try to compete on the top level, it has become a lot more risky (and we see a result of this by looking at all the studios who have to close).
 
We're all Sam tho.

Mordor are the big out of touch Publishers, and the ringwraiths are their devs in thrall.

Steam is the eagles.

Gabenalf leading the way.

oas2l.jpg
 

ghst

thanks for the laugh
Forgive me if this come's off as too "blog" in its content. I don't have a good outlet to write this, but I think it's something that needs to be stated, collectively, and discussed.

thanks for taking the time to do this and not just linking a z-tier youtube celebrity who says round about the same thing but not really, with none of the tact.
 

johnny956

Member
Consumers are at fault here, not industry, to be honest. All this shitty focus testing and other stuff is because it works, and people buy shitty broken games on launch every fucking single time over and over and over. They screw us, and we buy it. And will buy it, because people are dumb. And publishers get it, they know what to do to sell shit and they pretty much successful in it. It's gamers who are out of touch, not industry.

Out of touch with what exactly? I picked up Battlefield 4 for PS4 at launch. It's been a buggy mess (thankfully its improved) but honestly I've put more hours into BF 4 then the last 3 or 4 months combined of gaming. Does that mean I'm out of touch because I supported EA/Dice with that poor launch of a game yet still had hours upon hours of fun in these last 2 weeks then I've had in the last couple of months?
 
Gamers are simply more demanding now, maybe because games are so expensive. Add to that other factors like things competing for people's disposable income (tablets, smartphones)....video games simply become a hard investment for consumers to justify buying.
 

jWILL253

Banned
I'm not saying it's right for consumers, but they're doing the thing that makes them the most money. They are not your friend; they just want your money.

Things like microtransactions may be evil in the eyes of consumers, but Gungh Ho makes over $2 million dollars a day on Puzzle and Dragons, and their microtransactions are COMPLETELY non-essential to gameplay.

Microsoft did not repeal "always online" because gamers demanded it, they did it because they calculated that they would lose money by NOT repealing "always online."

Some gamers get too involved and forget that these companies are businesses and need to make money. Fan appreciation doesn't keep your doors open. Look at Platinum, they make great games but are going from project to project hoping they can stay afloat.

The market has gone this way because that is where the money is.

My question is... who gives a flying fuck about these corporations trying to make money?

I am a consumer. I give zero fucks about EA and their attempts to stay afloat. You can't argue in defense of capitalism and then miss the whole point of capitalism: adaptation. The companies that survive know how to adapt to the current market, otherwise they will deservedly collapse. But, you don't adapt by passing the buck onto consumers every time you lose money; a proper adaptation would be to adjust your own strategy, and get your budgets under control.

It's not my job to worry about some other large company, and how they make money; my job as a consumer is to make sure I'm not getting screwed during every transaction.

And no, the market isn't "there", they just want it to be. While your small indie team making a F2P game may stay afloat because of a few whales, the industry at large wants the majority of their consumers to become whales, as evidenced by the sheer number of retail games with microtransactions, DLC & season passes.

I hate indie games.

I'm currently playing Borderlands 2 and I'm amazed at how well crafted the game is. No indie developer could pull of a game to the sheer scale and quality of Borderlands 2. The same can be applied to Dark Souls and The Witcher 2 (although I didn't enjoy this game as well as the others).

You're missing out, then...
 

PBY

Banned
Budgets don't determine game quality. Developers need to be realistic and keep within their respective budgets.

What is wrong with mid-tier budgets? Gears Of War, Uncharted 1,2, Demon Souls, Dark Sounds, Borderlands etc don't have massive budgets yet are all quality titles.
Gears had a mid tier budget?
 

hayguyz

Banned
To add insult to injury, game prices have risen. 10 years ago, games were $10 cheaper. Due to the increase in price and the introduction of DLC, games have risen in price, at times nearly two fold, with titles like CoD often running you $110 for the full experience when the annual cycle is all said and done. Now, I understand that post release support costs money, however, season passes have been getting progressively more expensive, with content getting progressively less "fresh" and less "meaty". CoD features a number of recycled assets and layouts in order to maintain its annual release cycle, and the quality of the content has suffered as a result.

$50 of 2003 dollars would be worth: $63.53 in 2013

DLC isn't part of a game's price
 

Faustek

Member
Viva la indie (and mid-tier) revolution

Basically this yes. The Industry and many of us consumers are to blame for how the market looks now. Refusing to see other alternatives than the bloated carcass that was known as AAA. Reminds me of nitwits that believe Final Fantasy and Squeenix to be the only "JRPG" makers out there. Seriously get your heads out of the sand and explore a little there exists a ton of different games out there. Sure, most of them on PC but hey perhaps you can try that out too?

I hate indie games.

I'm currently playing Borderlands 2 and I'm amazed at how well crafted the game is. No indie developer could pull of a game to the sheer scale and quality of Borderlands 2. The same can be applied to Dark Souls and The Witcher 2 (although I didn't enjoy this game as well as the others).

Yes Bordelands 2 is a good game, there are tons of other good games out there as well. Many way better than borderlands ever was, to some. But if you are talking about Scale and quality I ask you what you mean by that. just the graphical fidelity? The "massive" world? What? If it's just the size of the world and the lore I can tell you I have single handely written muds that would make the lore in Bordelands 2 look like a fart in the wind. ca 12,000 unique rooms baby, over 500 unique enemies.(Thank you Tazmarin)

So what are you complaining about? if it's just graphical fidelity then I ask you to look to your left and your right. You should see a few stairs that will help you climb out of that well before you end up as dinner.
 

8byte

Banned
OP lost credibility with the "developers get it, publishers don't." Right at the start.

I meant to say individuals. The people who are working on the games, they are aware of these choices, but ultimately have no option to change anything. The industry is reliant, for the most part, on publishing deals, be it marketing, budget reasons, etc. Publishers will, and have, made very strict rules with their contracts with studios (or in the case of ownership, obligations flat out) that they must adhere to. The world economy isn't good enough to simply say "hey, I'm quitting, I'll find another job". Furthermore, competition within the industry is extremely stiff, and unless you're the second coming, bouncing from studio to studio isn't as easy as you would think, especially if you're worked at a mid-tier developer without a lot of measured success (since those things factor into a hire, on occasion). It isn't simply cut and dry, but I'm suggesting on an individual level that people are very self aware, but have very little choice in the matter. Hopefully that clears that up (and maybe restores some of my credibility?).

"To compound problems, the industry as a whole seems to be trapped in a "bubble" where the voice of the gamer doesn't exist..."

I agree with alot of what you're saying OP, but I have to take some issue with this particular statement here. Microsoft's policy reversals earlier were directly related to gamers making their voice loud and clear, by not pre-ordering their console while those restricive DRM policies were in place. To the publishers and platform holders, its all talk and disposable outrage from gamers until we shut our wallets and the silence of the cash registers haunt them in their dreams. The industry we have today is just a monster of our own making and the best thing we can do as consumers is just buy and support the types of developers publishers who do make the games with the richness, creativity, and depth that we want out of our products.

Well, was that a reaction to the protesting, or a reaction to something else? I would say it was a combination of many things, really. Competition being one of them (early PS4 success happened to impact that, I think). In addition to this, you saw a number of smaller studios and indie developers moving to specific platforms, and I think publishers noticed that. If you risk losing your install base to the competition, then you'll risk your leverage with publishers, especially when it comes to exclusive content. You go from "make exclusive content, we're the market leader" to "hey, we'll pay you since we're behind, and we really need something to drive sales on our platform". I think it was a combination of things, not necessarily a reaction to gamer voice (though I think that certainly had a great deal of impact). That, however, is quite different than gamers telling publishers their model is broken, particularly when some titles continue to break sales records year over year.

thanks for taking the time to do this and not just linking a z-tier youtube celebrity who says round about the same thing but not really, with none of the tact.

Thank you for the compliment. I just had some stuff on my chest that I wanted to get off / discuss. :)
 

JoeM86

Member
Despite their closed platform architecture, marketing issues and so forth, Nintendo is the closest of the big three to getting things right.

Microtransactions? No. DLC? Their first party stuff is all substantial and is mandated to be conceived of and developed after launch. No paywalls for standard features such as online. Complete indie love, too. Very few day one patches (aside from the console's one, their games tend not to, except to activate Miiverse features as seen in NSMBU and NintendoLand, but that's it really from their games), and yet they're selling the worst this generation. It really saddens me as it seems that in some ways, they're the most in touch with what consumers want (while in others, they're clearly not).
 

kurbaan

Banned
Yeah, if anything, the studios that have survived are the ones that have targeted a wider, mass audience.

The enthusiast game audience is simply too small to support big-budget titles. It is, in fact, the focus on traditional "gamer" audiences that is doing the industry in.

just to add to that the enthusiasts are more than likely to pan your game targeted for them if its not exactly what they want or lower budget than other games.

like the thief thread just today. The developer actually listened to gamers, changed a ton, improved the game and all they are met with is more negativity. If that game comes out and is good yet people still don't buy it because its not 100% the Thief game they wanted, the publishers are not to blame when they kill the franchise and that type of game play.

I see all these complaints about shooters and too man fps but when a studio goes and tries to do something different they get ridiculed constantly. I am talking about games like Heavy rain and beyond. Maybe they aren't the best games and have issues but they are a start and can improve yet the view of many is they shouldn't even bother.
 

Astery

Member
Consumers are at fault here, not industry, to be honest. All this shitty focus testing and other stuff is because it works, and people buy shitty broken games on launch every fucking single time over and over and over. They screw us, and we buy it. And will buy it, because people are dumb. And publishers get it, they know what to do to sell shit and they pretty much successful in it. It's gamers who are out of touch, not industry.

. Even if you or me don't buy them, a majority of people apparently does.
 

udivision

Member
Budgets don't determine game quality. Developers need to be realistic and keep within their respective budgets.

People should keep that in mind when they complain about Monster Hunter 4 not being on a console that can provide compelling textures or that there should be some sort of next-gen Pokemon on the Wii U. Needlessly jacking up dev costs (and in both cases, reducing potential sales) isn't a great business plan unless you want to end up with paid DLC and micro transactions.
 

8byte

Banned
$50 of 2003 dollars would be worth: $63.53 in 2013

DLC isn't part of a game's price

In 2003 the economy was also different, as was the price of consoles, accessories, online services, and development budgets.

I completely understand that DLC isn't a part of the video game price. In most cases, it even has its own budget. However, the industry hasn't focused enough on content creation, allowing them to cheaply make content that is meaningful, readily available, and above all else, fairly priced. Digital content as it is simply doesn't live up to its pricing in most cases, and that is very unfortunate. DLC at present isn't forward thinking enough, and instead is a misleading cash grab that takes advantage of those who do not know better.

Sure, this works. However, I am a believer that investing in the tools to make cheaper, better DLC happen more frequently for post launch support (even after your next project has started and released) is a much better and more profitable model than what we currently have.
 
Except for indies and select companies, video games have the unique distinction from other forms of art in that they are interactive and almost exclusively corporatized. Sure, there once was a time when budgets were small and creativity ran wild, but these days, most titles are evaluated through the lens of imitation and homogenization.
 

Hiccup

Banned
Despite their closed platform, marketing issues and so forth, Nintendo is the closest of the big three to getting things right.

Microtransactions? No. DLC? Their first party stuff is all substantial and is mandated to be conceived of and developed after launch. No paywalls for standard features such as online. Complete indie love, too. And yet, they're selling the worst this generation. It really saddens me as it seems that in some ways, they're the most in touch with what consumers want (while in others, they're clearly not).

A guy at work literally won't buy nintendo games because colors equate kiddy. He plays nothing but shooters. I'll never get it.
 

Kimawolf

Member
I would like to say that I imagine most devs don't enjoy shipping a broken/buggy product. Its the publishers who are usually the ones enforcing release dates.
But thats my point. As the consumer its not my job to care about publisher problems. Most devs have been around long enough to know how publishers work. If a movie came out with obvious errors in presentation and direction it would be creamed. And we dont say oh movie budget too small or studio interfered. We say x made a bad movie. Why should game devs be different?
 
I would wager that strict pricing models hurt those titles, rather than gamers not caring. If your game cannot compete with a $60 game (and that would / should be evident to every publisher or developer) then do not price it at $60. For all the focus testing the industry does, I would wager they do extremely little to focus test "prices". If you brought in 200 people to play a verticle slice of your title and asked them to tell you their acceptable price range, I think that would be far more useful, as compared to asking them what they think about the game, which ultimately will result in "I want this to be like it is in my favorite game". Useless and a waste of money / time.

I don't buy that at all. Timegate put out a beautifully designed game in Section 8: Prejudice and released it for $15 and the apathy was palpable. Look at Hydrophobia from Dark Energy. That was what, $10 and the hate was so strong for it here. Loads of XBLA/PSN games that cost next to nothing to make in the grand scheme that pour value for the dollar on the player, and get passed over due to a lack of visibility due to a lack of marketing. Housemarque's Outland is a good example of that.

Yeah, game budgets are sometimes incredibly irresponsible. Tomb Raider being made 3 times over and costing what it did was shocking. Max Payne 3 the same. Homefront was also a well documented clusterfuck of budgeting and production. That isn't the rule for a lot of games out there though.

The $60 price tag is something few people actually have a problem with. On day 1 more than enough people are happy to walk into a store and pick up copies of Halo, CoD, GTA, Skyrim, Battlefield, Madden, or whatever at that price tag. What is it that drives them to not worry about the cost and buy the game?

$10m, IIRC

Yeah with the Unreal Engine 3 team and budget hidden off of that figure.
 

udivision

Member
A guy at work literally won't buy nintendo games because colors equate kiddy. He plays nothing but shooters. I'll never get it.

If someone didn't like Disney movies and prefers to only watch action thrillers, what is there to "get"? That's just what they like.
 

Dryk

Member
I can't help but feel that someone found a monkey's paw last century, made a wish for video-games to have mainstream acceptance and this is the result.
 

Faustek

Member
A guy at work literally won't buy nintendo games because colors equate kiddy. He plays nothing but shooters. I'll never get it.

A friends friend asked what console he should buy. He wanted something that his 4 year old and 7 year old could have fun with. Talking consoles btw.

We told him Wii U or a 3DS. He thought it was stupid with Nintendo and pre-ordered a XBO for his kids and a PS4 for himself....Some people are beyond salvation.
 
Basically this yes. The Industry and many of us consumers are to blame for how the market looks now. Refusing to see other alternatives than the bloated carcass that was known as AAA. Reminds me of nitwits that believe Final Fantasy and Squeenix to be the only "JRPG" makers out there. Seriously get your heads out of the sand and explore a little there exists a ton of different games out there. Sure, most of them on PC but hey perhaps you can try that out too?
That's not particularly fair, because for most of the past decade, Final Fantasy is has probably been the only JRPG to get decent marketing and stocking in brick and mortar stores. Everything else has gotten hit or miss coverage, limited availability in stores, or simply never made it over here.
 

8byte

Banned
I don't buy that at all. Timegate put out a beautifully designed game in Section 8: Prejudice and released it for $15 and the apathy was palpable. Look at Hydrophobia from Dark Energy. That was what, $10 and the hate was so strong for it here. Loads of XBLA/PSN games that cost next to nothing to make in the grand scheme that pour value for the dollar on the player, and get passed over due to a lack of visibility due to a lack of marketing. Housemarque's Outland is a good example of that.

Yeah, game budgets are sometimes incredibly irresponsible. Tomb Raider being made 3 times over and costing what it did was shocking. Max Payne 3 the same. Homefront was also a well documented clusterfuck of budgeting and production. That isn't the rule for a lot of games out there though.

The $60 price tag is something few people actually have a problem with. On day 1 more than enough people are happy to walk into a store and pick up copies of Halo, CoD, GTA, Skyrim, Battlefield, Madden, or whatever at that price tag. What is it that drives them to not worry about the cost and buy the game?



Yeah with the Unreal Engine 3 team and budget hidden off of that figure.

You said it right there. Those games ultimately failed because their exposure is not there. Marketing and exposure aren't there, and these are things that Sony, MS, Nintendo, and Valve (via Steam) can help with at little cost to them, and still earn their fees. Putting these games into rotation helps. Putting them on their "preview" programs (playing for fixed durations of time) helps. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

People don't have a problem buying established IPs for $60. From time to time, they also don't have a problem with new IPs. I don't even think they have a "problem" with lesser known titles (or quality titles) being sold at $60. However, that pricing model keeps that game out of someones hands. Why buy this game, when you can buy Halo? What if you could buy 3 different games, brand new, for the same price as Halo? That flexibility simply doesn't exist in the retail space, and it absolutely should. There needs to be more experimentation here with pricing flexibility and profitability than there does with focus testing which aspects of CoD or GTA your game needs to incorporate.

What worked 10-15 years ago with magazines, pricing models, development practices, and marketing...simply isn't ideal today. Is it viable? For some, yes. It is good for the industry? I don't think so, not by a long shot.

As for Gears of War, I wouldn't count engine development into that cost, as it was heavily licensed and used, and probably recouped the cost quickly. In addition to that, don't forget that MS handled most (if not all) of the marketing, giving them a significantly lower budget than most titles are able to enjoy.
 

johnny956

Member
If someone didn't like Disney movies and prefers to only watch action thrillers, what is there to "get"? That's just what they like.

Yup and some peoples tastes change as they get older too. I loved Donkey Kong Returns for SNES. I still have my SNES and that game. I look at gameplay for Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze and see no appeal to it anymore. I even played my SNES earlier this year and Donkey Kong just bored me. Clearly my tastes have changed and unfortunately Nintendo games generally don't appeal to me anymore.
 
A friends friend asked what console he should buy. He wanted something that his 4 year old and 7 year old could have fun with. Talking consoles btw.

We told him Wii U or a 3DS. He thought it was stupid with Nintendo and pre-ordered a XBO for his kids and a PS4 for himself....Some people are beyond salvation.

Should have recommended an NES.
 

MrKaepora

Member
So...what is your input, Neo GAF? Do you think the current industry model is viable over the course of future generations? More studio closures? How can we possibly get enough leverage to talk to studios, to break that "bubble" if they stubbornly pretend we don't exist, and that this isn't a problem? Discuss, ye intelligent minds of gaming.

No.Yes. By not buying their products and by making a shitstorm so hard like the one we did with the original Xbox one policies.

I tell you, I only expect to buy a PS4 in order to play Witcher 3 and the future Cyberpunk title that should come out in 2015. And the only reason for buying the PS4 and not a PC it's because I already bought a PC about three years ago and don't want to buy another so soon. I'm tired of consoles and publishers thinking that they can set their rules and expect us to go with the tide.

For me this industry will only have a salvation when the Activisions and EAs of this world get their heads out of their asses and start having some respect for the ones responsible for their successes. Us, gamers.
 
You said it right there. Those games ultimately failed because their exposure is not there. Marketing and exposure aren't there, and these are things that Sony, MS, Nintendo, and Valve (via Steam) can help with at little cost to them, and still earn their fees. Putting these games into rotation helps. Putting them on their "preview" programs (playing for fixed durations of time) helps. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case.

People don't have a problem buying established IPs for $60. From time to time, they also don't have a problem with new IPs. I don't even think they have a "problem" with lesser known titles (or quality titles) being sold at $60. However, that pricing model keeps that game out of someones hands. Why buy this game, when you can buy Halo? What if you could buy 3 different games, brand new, for the same price as Halo? That flexibility simply doesn't exist in the retail space, and it absolutely should. There needs to be more experimentation here with pricing flexibility and profitability than there does with focus testing which aspects of CoD or GTA your game needs to incorporate.

What worked 10-15 years ago with magazines, pricing models, development practices, and marketing...simply isn't ideal today. Is it viable? For some, yes. It is good for the industry? I don't think so, not by a long shot.

As for Gears of War, I wouldn't count engine development into that cost, as it was heavily licensed and used, and probably recouped the cost quickly. In addition to that, don't forget that MS handled most (if not all) of the marketing, giving them a significantly lower budget than most titles are able to enjoy.

But everything costs money. It is either direct out of pocket or due to time vs. visibility. If MS or Sony can put Minecraft on the front of the dash and sell 10,000 copies an hour at $20 a copy or put Renegade Ops up there an sell 100 copies an hour at $15 what do you think they are going to do? Who do we blame for the shit sales of Renegade Ops?

Is Renegade Ops not worth $15? I got about 6 hours of fun out of that game and bought the DLC I haven't even gotten around to playing yet. That game flopped terribly because players didn't care. The game didn't generate an audience and that audience is created by marketing, press, and players themselves. Somewhere in that pyramid it fell apart.

There IS flexible pricing at retail. Borderlands and Dead Island both launched at $40. They both were very successful games. No one could really tell you or me if the price had anything to do with their success because I doubt you could ever pull real metrics from purchasers. The price of a game is a gut check before launch. Would you risk losing $20 per copy sold on a game that needed a 300k copies sold to break even at $60? What if you ended up selling the same amount of copies either way. What it if flopped and you had to bargain bin it sooner with less price flexibility?

You have to add the engine dev into the cost of Gears because every other game that has an engine or licensing an engine has to pay that cost. You could be cutting off 50% of your actual costs by ignoring that.
 
I loathe the term "corporate greed" almost as much as the OP's delusions. Video games are a business. And the people running the business are doing a phenomenal job, on their front, with sales in reading year-over-year. I won't subvert myself and say I am "part of the problem." I give my money for the goods and services I like, whether that be DLC, micro transactions, or physical releases. I mean, this whole discussion rests on the principles of business and economic fundamentals. For those saying the industry is going down the tubes, then form a studio, make a blockbuster, and then work towards making the industry what you want it to be. Until that happens, then it's all just a lot of hot-air hippie-ism.
 

Faustek

Member
That's not particularly fair, because for most of the past decade, Final Fantasy is has probably been the only JRPG to get decent marketing and stocking in brick and mortar stores. Everything else has gotten hit or miss coverage, limited availability in stores, or simply never made it over here.

And I'm saying you are responsible for your own fun. Just relying on ads to tell you what is fun is bad. Just take a gamble, rent a game. Buy it if you loved it. But I must admit I was spoiled. Like really spoiled. My local retailer was a man of my tastes and stocked even the most obscure titles no one had heard of. Btw I live in Sweden, in a small ass town with perhaps only 20k citizens. And still does. And not only games but movies and music as well. Can you imagine a retailer taking home, then, obscure music like Luna Sea in the 90s that had no pull whatsoever? Selling pc games made by teens/young adults in their parents home? Importing games that never made it up here. He was the one for me that started the "Indie" thing. And this was back in the 90s and he hasn't changed. So yes I was spoiled as hell. But that didn't stop me from exploring different areas. Asking for different things. And sometimes settling for a stupid looking games I never heard of or read of by the name Suikoden and Shin Megami Tensei. Remember Sweden, small market, nearly non existent for it's time so if it wasn't Nintendo it wasn't "AAA". But yeah I traveled a lot in my time due to work. But I always made sure to try out some different things. Fallen in love with many games I never heard of in the "major gaming outlets".

So what I'm actually saying is, take some responsibility for your own gaming. And buy a Vita for jebus sake!
 
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