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I’m glad turn-based combat in JRPGs has lost popularity
- Thread starter shark sandwich
- Start date
Shifty
Member
Your point about solving the puzzle for a given encounter over and over again is bang-on, but I think framing the decline of a genre as a good thing is going a bit far.
If anything this is a good opportunity to discuss how one might improve the design of turn-based combat systems in order to keep them interesting and relevant.
Also you covered random battles (and I agree that being yanked out of exploration sucks), but that's a different discussion altogether since the combat therein doesn't necessarily have to be turn based.
And if this doesn't convince, nothing will:
If anything this is a good opportunity to discuss how one might improve the design of turn-based combat systems in order to keep them interesting and relevant.
Also you covered random battles (and I agree that being yanked out of exploration sucks), but that's a different discussion altogether since the combat therein doesn't necessarily have to be turn based.
This is good advice.
And if this doesn't convince, nothing will:
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Louis Cyphre
Banned
I love turned based strategy games like Valkyria Chronicles and X-Com but I agree that in RPG"s it takes away the immersion.
Battlechili
Banned
Platinumstorm
Member
I find the newer systems less engaging and as previous posters have mentioned "mindless". I like being able to take control of each of the characters and hate being stuck with just one.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I really hate this type of thread. It like me saying "I hate first person view and that's they should disappear". If you like more action RPG thats fine, there are plenty of them out there but wishing them to disappear just because you personally don't like them is kind of selfish. What about people who enjoy turn based combat? Fuck them?
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You should play the first three Persona, normal enemies can end your game if you are just pressing next.
Turn-based combat only works if the encounters are designed appropriately. No more than 4-6 enemies and make sure they have interesting behaviors and pose a genuine threat. Cannon fodder is a waste of time and filler combat is a no-no when it's turn-based. Also, make positioning matter. Traditional JRPG combat is pretty boring because positioning irrelevant. However, in a game like Divinity: Original Sin 2, you have to account for range, elevation and line of sight. The environment should be a significant factor in your strategy.
So no, I don't think JRPGs should move away from turn-based combat. They just need to do it better.
So no, I don't think JRPGs should move away from turn-based combat. They just need to do it better.
It's the same in P5 if you're on hard and not insanely overleveled.
cireza
Member
Turn based combat can be perfectly fine. Lost Odyssey had a pretty good implementation, that involved at least some minimal strategy for each fight.
Final Fantasy X also had some very good turn based battles.
A game like Phantasy Star IV demonstrates that turn based combat can be extremely fast.
Finally games like Shining Force are turn based, and they are totally awesome.
Final Fantasy X also had some very good turn based battles.
A game like Phantasy Star IV demonstrates that turn based combat can be extremely fast.
Finally games like Shining Force are turn based, and they are totally awesome.
I hate turn-based. I always buy the game even if it's turnbased yet I always stop half-way through because it gets too repetitive and boring. But for some reason Dragon Quest games is no problem for me at all. And I don't know why. Maybe it's the goofyness and the overall speed of the encounters that makes it bearable. But Dragon Quest games are one of my favorite JRPG series even though I generally dislike turn-based.
Koala Driving a Ferrari
Member
As a fan of turn based JRPGs and strategy games this thread really triggers me.
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pwnzernator
Member
Persona 5 was my most hated game this generation because of this. My mind was a bit blown by all the positive buzz it received. Playing it was a chore and a complete bore.
Ka-Kui
Member
Well clearly OP turn based just isn't your thing. I don't play racing games because I don't like them, but that doesn't mean I'd be happy if they're gone, if others enjoy them then enjoy away.
Why do I like turn based? I like the lack of urgency and slower paced and relaxed nature of it relative to action games. Sometimes I just don't want to be on edge all the time.
At the same time I play games like Devil May Cry, Onimusha, Bayonetta, Street Fighter, Tekken, and currently playing Monster Hunter. I'd like to think that I know and appreciate what a good action gameplay is.
Just because I like action combat doesn't mean I want my Devil May Cry combat fix in every game that I play. I go to different games to get a fix of different things.
I used to play Final Fantasy for my turn based fix, instead with FFXV I got a mediocre action combat fix which was not what I wanted in an FF game. I got other mediocre action games like that to avoid.
Why do I like turn based? I like the lack of urgency and slower paced and relaxed nature of it relative to action games. Sometimes I just don't want to be on edge all the time.
At the same time I play games like Devil May Cry, Onimusha, Bayonetta, Street Fighter, Tekken, and currently playing Monster Hunter. I'd like to think that I know and appreciate what a good action gameplay is.
Just because I like action combat doesn't mean I want my Devil May Cry combat fix in every game that I play. I go to different games to get a fix of different things.
I used to play Final Fantasy for my turn based fix, instead with FFXV I got a mediocre action combat fix which was not what I wanted in an FF game. I got other mediocre action games like that to avoid.
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Alexander DeLarge
Member
While I'm not a fan, I know what it's like to have "streamlined mechanics" hijack my favorite genre and it sucks. It's okay for things to not be for everyone, the mentality that every game has to be made for everyone is precisely why my favorite genre sucks right now.
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As opposed to what? action-rpg's? ' OH YES, THIS IS AWESOME... LET ME JUST KEEP HITTING THE A BUTTON AND THROW IN THE OCCASIONAL JUMP. THIS IS MUCH MORE ENGAGING...'
Turn based rpg's usually require more patience and attention (which people have much less of these days), and in my personal experience involve, much much more strategy then you give them credit for.
SoaringDive
Member
Nah they're good
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Yeah it soooo crazy to believe that people actually don't hate turn based combat like you do.
/s
Dr. Zoidberg
Member
I don't play RPGs for the battle systems, but rather for the world, story, characters, and journey. Therefore, I prefer battle systems that require the least time and effort from me as possible so I can get back to the "good stuff". In many cases, such as Dragon Quest, the turn-based battle system is the quickest method of resolving battles with minimal time wasted.
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TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Speak for yourself but FFVIII is home to the greatness battle I've had in any game
This is exactly what happened and I scream no as I was wiped out and jump up cheering when something unexpected happened
As you can see here
Awesome
Nothing beats a good turn based RPG
This is exactly what happened and I scream no as I was wiped out and jump up cheering when something unexpected happened
As you can see here
Awesome
Nothing beats a good turn based RPG
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n0razi
Member
Ff12 did it the best... Automate the dumb stuff.
They can also give more fine tuned controls for battles. Ie in the FF remasters, they let you fast forward. I would like some sort of option to automatically ignore or auto battle enemies who are below your level, etc...
They can also give more fine tuned controls for battles. Ie in the FF remasters, they let you fast forward. I would like some sort of option to automatically ignore or auto battle enemies who are below your level, etc...
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gradient
Resident Cheap Arse
I like turn-based combat, it gives you time to breath and soak everything in.
Done right it makes combat a lot more strategic than free-flow where you spend more time reacting than pre-empting and planning. It can also produce and prolong a different level of tension as things heat up or reach a critical point which would otherwise pass in a flash.
Done right it makes combat a lot more strategic than free-flow where you spend more time reacting than pre-empting and planning. It can also produce and prolong a different level of tension as things heat up or reach a critical point which would otherwise pass in a flash.
This isn't at all wrong. Trash encounters are always boring and tiresome whether it's a turn-based or action game. The concept of trash encounters is what sucks here. But I typically find it worth while because turn-based boss battles can be very fun if done right. And it's more than just the specific battle with a boss, but turn-based games often can offer more in terms of pre-battle preparation for difficult bosses. Action games are fun too though.
lensoftruth
Member
Like playing tabletop with no encounters
subsmoke
Member
I agree. All turn based RPGs ought to have some interactive element like SMRPG's timed hits or Front Mission's grid system or Shadow Hearts's judgment ring. If there's no interaction at all and you're just pushing a button and watching it happen on screen there's no challenge to that and it's gonna get boring pretty fast.
I don't know why people don't like FF8, enemies leveling up with you is actually clever.
All other FF have the problem that OP states. You can just normal attack enemies and be done with it, with the occasional healing in boss fight. For example in FF7/FF9 it's better to normal attack than use summons because the time it takes to summon and do 9999 dmg you can attack 3 times and do 6000 dmg three times. But FF8 at least gets harder if you level up.
Bitanator
Member
There is always a place for turn based combat and random encounters, the former is still a great way to design your game around, there are many ways to improve and afd some fantastic strategy and innovative elements to your turn based game. In regards to random encounters, make an option to have either, I love both and like Dragon Quest XI approach.
Ka-Kui
Member
For me personally I hate it when enemies level up with you.
I'm a habitual grinder. I work very hard to grind for certain stats and moves and then to see my ultimate move make no more of an impact than my lvl 1 fire attack from the start of a game is disheartening.
Equally I hate level caps, why am I being artificially held back just back just because the designers couldn't be bothered to balance their levelling system?
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
How much “strategy” are you using in your typical Dragon Quest or old school Final Fantasy game? All you do in those games is pick “attack” from a menu until you win. Maybe heal once in a while.
Just because you have full manual control w/unlimited time to make decisions does not automatically make something strategic.
The problem with that is these little mini games also get old pretty fast, PLUS they make the battles take longer.
Agreed 100%. Program your party to your exact specifications, and jump in any time you want for a manual override.
I also think FF XII is especially hilarious because it blows a hole in the idea that you are using “strategy” in turn-based JRPGs. When 99% of your decisions can be easily automated by some simple if/else script then maybe you aren’t using as much of your brain as you thought you were.
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Zog
Banned
Final Fantasy 8 is meant to be played by fighting as little as possible. Your characters strengths lie in drawing magic (or crafting it), making cards from enemies to get ability points for your GF's and junctioning your stats. The enemies leveling with you is not supposed to be an issue since you should be killing as few of them as possible.
Generally speaking though, leveled enemies is terrible. It kills any motivation to grind and to me, watching yourself get more and more powerful is fun.
gioGAF
Member
I am definitely in the camp of "why not both". I miss RPGs that use the "DnD Rules" along with turn-based combat. Don't get me wrong, I like the action RPGs with more real-time, player input derived combat as well, but there is something very entertaining and engaging for me about the way DnD Rules+Turn based combat work.
Zog
Banned
Agreed. Level caps are the developers way of making you play their way. No freedom for you dear customer. I remember Dragon Age having limited enemies and that is where the level cap came from. The DLC would raise the level cap by adding a limited number of enemies. Why do they care if you fight the final boss at Level 99 instead of maxing out at level 25?
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Zog
Banned
Uh, you are the one who programed the Gambits. Anyway, when you say strategy I assume you mean the act of thinking about which attack/magic to use on which enemy? Deciding who and when to heal and when to just risk attacking because the battle is almost over anyway?
Nikodemos
Member
The problem isn't turn-based combat, but rather the stagnation which affects several jRPG turn-based combat systems.
Things like a minuscule combat map, and/or immobile combat units, and/or random unavoidable trashcan encounters, and/or the inability to in-depth customize your party members (where existent) to your specific playstyle.
It's one of the areas cRPGs (ex. Age of Decadence, Underrail, Serpent in the Staglands, Divinity: OS, Lords of Xulima etc.) have mechanically gone beyond jRPGs.
Things like a minuscule combat map, and/or immobile combat units, and/or random unavoidable trashcan encounters, and/or the inability to in-depth customize your party members (where existent) to your specific playstyle.
It's one of the areas cRPGs (ex. Age of Decadence, Underrail, Serpent in the Staglands, Divinity: OS, Lords of Xulima etc.) have mechanically gone beyond jRPGs.
Oddspeak
Member
I have no real preference; I'll play both. They do have their strengths and weaknesses. Turn-based allows time to breathe and make the right choices, but to some that just translates to unnecessary downtime with needless menu navigating and animation watching when you already go into the fight knowing what you'll do. Real-time can be more visceral and fights aren't arbitrarily lengthened by menus, but sometimes you can't have those precious few moments to collect your thoughts when fighting a new enemy.
I don't think one is inherently more "strategic" than the other, either. You could argue that turn-based allows you to be more thorough with your planning between turns and think things out for the long term, but real-time forces you to be clever on the fly and amid pressure, which is an equally important skill.
Most real-time RPGs have very simplified combat, so "mashing" is a common criticism, but I personally don't find navigating the same menus thousands of times to be any more compelling, especially in the late game when some of those menus have dozens of choices I need to scroll through.
I don't think one is inherently more "strategic" than the other, either. You could argue that turn-based allows you to be more thorough with your planning between turns and think things out for the long term, but real-time forces you to be clever on the fly and amid pressure, which is an equally important skill.
Most real-time RPGs have very simplified combat, so "mashing" is a common criticism, but I personally don't find navigating the same menus thousands of times to be any more compelling, especially in the late game when some of those menus have dozens of choices I need to scroll through.
Just look at Ni No Kuni 2. It went from a turn based-ish combat to full action combat and it became laughably easy.
Makariel
Member
If the interactive elements are getting in the way of your enjoyment, why not read a book /watch a movie or series instead?
sssssszzzzz
Neo Member
Turn-based combat was introduced in a time where real-time effects were by far not as good as they are today.
Going back, there were some turn-based combat systems that I really remember well. Final Fantasy X sticks out for me, for instance. The system required planning, tactics and it wasn't too easy to win. Same goes more recently for Divinity. So if it's done well, I don't mind it. Final Fantasy XV breaking with the old systems was fine by me though.
Going back, there were some turn-based combat systems that I really remember well. Final Fantasy X sticks out for me, for instance. The system required planning, tactics and it wasn't too easy to win. Same goes more recently for Divinity. So if it's done well, I don't mind it. Final Fantasy XV breaking with the old systems was fine by me though.
Ridcully
Member
If you want to be reductive about it (as clearly you do), you should realise that you could do this with any game. Dark Souls is solvable with a series of if statements.
Cato
Banned
shark sandwich
tenuously links anime, pedophile and incels
Oh give me a break, you know what I meant. In FF XII your strategy is literally a list of up to 12 if/else if statements, and that’s enough to automate nearly everything aside from some boss fights. And this same sort of system would EASILY apply just as well to probably 90% of turn-based JRPGs.
The sweet irony is that I found the process of setting up my gambits itself to be more strategic and engaging than the battle systems in most turn-based JRPGs.
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Admittedly doing stuff like Earthbound helps with some of your complaints. You can see the enemies on the map and if you're strong enough(IE not worth fighting) they run away from you so you can explore. If you walk into them at this point to trigger the fight the game actually just skips the fight and gives you the win without even loading the battle screen. (A quick popup with how much money and experience you got.) I'm always surprised that so few other games stole this design since it's far better than the standard JRPG fight system.
grumpyGamer
Member
i will be honest i fell in love with turn based when i played dq 8, and when i play that game i just wish more games had it.
But i get where you are coming from, but i believe it has more to do with the pace of the game and the right implementation.
thats why i was glad the new dq game has an option for turn based
But i get where you are coming from, but i believe it has more to do with the pace of the game and the right implementation.
thats why i was glad the new dq game has an option for turn based