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[Luschient]

“My wife and I, we go to gay bars, we go to porn shops. If you’re going to be a fisher of men, you’ve got to go where the fish are.”

 

[Air]

Grasping at straws then? How about you address the actual criticism?

Me providing evidence to your original claim isn't grasping at straws. It's literally me addressing a flaw in your presumption. The criticism is irrelevant. I don't care what you believe about Jesus, but if you're making claims they should be backed by the academic community, no?

 

[Khaz]

Me providing evidence to your original claim isn't grasping at straws. It's literally me addressing a flaw in your presumption. The criticism is irrelevant. I don't care what you believe about Jesus, but if you're making claims they should be backed by the academic community, no?

My claim is: historical Jesus ≠ Bible Jesus. That a Jewish preacher named Jesus was crucified is as relevant to the message of the Bible as the real St Nicholas had "a reputation for secret gift-giving". Both current interpretations of the characters are mythical, of extraordinary beings doing miracles to push the agenda of whomever is telling the story. Saying that Jesus is real, while true, is a technicality irrelevant to the message itself, just a way to push said message by rooting it into history.

 

[Air]

My claim is: historical Jesus ≠ Bible Jesus. That a Jewish preacher named Jesus was crucified is as relevant to the message of the Bible as the real St Nicholas had "a reputation for secret gift-giving". Both current interpretations of the characters are mythical, of extraordinary beings doing miracles to push the agenda of whomever is telling the story. Saying that Jesus is real, while true, is a technicality irrelevant to the message itself, just a way to push said message by rooting it into history.

That wasn't your claim, maybe it is now but not before. Also, I'm not understanding how Jesus' message of love your neighbor as you love yourself is irrelevant to the reality of a historical Jesus. I'm not trying to trojan horse you or change what you believe, but your original claim is wrong and spreads misinformation. I don't care to take this to a drawn out conversation. There are already people in the thread saying Jesus wasn't real, which isn't accurate. If they want to discuss the miricalulous part of his story they should say that, because otherwise they're being dismissive of actual history. It's a message board, it's not crazy to ask to be a bit more precise with your words

 

[Khaz]

Again, "the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate" That's in your link from before. Everything else is taken from the Bible only and as such is very likely to have been subjected to propaganda tweaking at best if not outright invention.

Historical Jesus is real, St Nicholas is real. Bible Jesus and Santa Claus are Fairy tale characters who don't relate to their historical origin in any meaningful way.

 

[Two Words]

Of course they are not the same thing. We as a culture and society decide to ourselves which beliefs are allowed to prosper and some even get national advantages and special rights over others. Religion is ingrained to every level of our lives even though you personally would be an atheist (like I am).

In a pure theoretical level all the non-proved supernatural beliefs are the same. But on a practical level there is a difference between beliefs because of the influence and the amount of people who support such a belief. You can disagree, you can oppose and you can say that they are wrong, but you cannot however say that practicing the belief in a major world religion is the same as a child believing in santa. That is reductionist way of thinking.

It is the same. Something doesn't become more real if more people believe it. Honestly, all of this irrelevant talk about culture and history sounds like an attempt to argue that just because it has had an impact means the belief is somehow more valid. That is just silly. None of that has do with whether or not the belief is true or not.

 

[Air]

Again, "the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate" That's in your link from before. Everything else is taken from the Bible only and as such is very likely to have been subjected to propaganda tweaking at best if not outright invention.

Historical Jesus is real, St Nicholas is real. Bible Jesus and Santa Claus are Fairy tale characters who don't relate to their historical origin in any meaningful way.

You can have the last word if you'd like, but again, my post is simply responding to this claim.

the only thing the traditional Santa Klaus and the original St. Niklaas share, just like the original 1st century preacher and the Bible savior share, is a name

Now, since that point you've expanded your argument after I repeatedly said I don't want to engage. Your initial point I quoted above is wrong full-stop when taken at face value and is what I want to address. I don't care to engage about if the historical Jesus is 1:1 with the biblical Jesus. I'm addressing this because there are people saying Jesus didn't exist (iirc, the first person I responded to didn't think Jesus existed in any capacity).

This will be my last post addressing this point as I don't want to commandeer the thread any further

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

That guy should have been ejected immediately. Whatever reason such as disrupting business, customers, etc. could have been used.

This took place on private property. There are a lot more restrictions on yelling out bullshit here than there would be on public land.

 

[Apathy]

Christmas isn't even about Jesus you idiot. He wasnt born in December.

These are the people that need to be told straight up the there is no God. A child believing in Santa us better than a grown adult believing in some made up religious shit

 

[Stinkles]

You work with what you got. As far as I know and am aware with, there's the Josephus mention and another. Generally, unless you were an emperor or someone of note, there wouldn't be much in the way of anything referencing you.I think all things considered, with the amount of information we have about that time along with the inference as you say, occams razor suggests that the simplest answer is that a historical Jesus existed.

EDIT: I'd also go so far as to say that the idea of a radical Jewish rabbi, upset with the established order is probably the most non-radical claim about anything, and I'm not sure I understand why it would be hard to believe that someone like that could have existed 2000 years ago. Also, in the absence of the hard evidence you want, logic/reason and inference are also tools you can use.

Well we're actually agreeing with each other - except for the Josephus passage, which is HIGHLY questionable and even a layman can understand why it's an awkward fit in his writing. I'm hesitant to use the word fake, but that's what some scholars say. However before defending or agreeing with that, I ask the curious to go read the critiques of the Jesus/John mention in Josephus and reading the context themselves. It is indeed wonky.

 

[slit]

Christmas isn't even about Jesus you idiot. He wasnt born in December.

Kirk Cameron says you're a liar!

 

[Wickerbasket]

The guy seems like a huge asshole who's life is devoid of anything meaningful.

Next he'll be telling all the kids at Disney that their favourite character is a guy in a suit.

 

[Easy_D]

Gaben is Santa (and God) for grownups! He's real. Trust me.

And if you're not nice, he'll give you a very personal tour of his knife collection

 

[Lashley]

Christmas isn't even about Jesus, though?

 

[Chris R]

Oh look, it's one of the crazy fucktards moving to Alaska to make this shitty state even crazier.

 

[Anteater]

so I guess he has succeeded at being an asshole towards children? Work well done for a grown ass man

 

[Fourth Storm]

Well we're actually agreeing with each other - except for the Josephus passage, which is HIGHLY questionable and even a layman can understand why it's an awkward fit in his writing. I'm hesitant to use the word fake, but that's what some scholars say. However before defending or agreeing with that, I ask the curious to go read the critiques of the Jesus/John mention in Josephus and reading the context themselves. It is indeed wonky.

Oh great, an HJ debate! It's been a while, but I researched this for quite some time. I've concluded there was a first century preacher named Jesus who was shortly thereafter referred to as "Christos."

There are two references in Josephus. The first lengthy one, "The Testimonium Flavianum," is disputed by scholars. Most hold to partial authenticity, but there is a good case to be made for the whole thing being an interpolation. The second reference is in passing when discussing Jesus' brother James. That is nearly universally regarded as being written by Josephus. One historian has questioned it in recent years, but his criticism is not based on any evidence. He merely presents how it might have been an insertion. I've actually taken him to task for this personally, but the man does not do well with his views being challenged.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Santa should gift him some new teeth

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Sounds like he just found out himself.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Jesus was a real person that existed. Whether he had spiritual powers and was the Son of God is what is disputed.

Debatable. Remember, the purported mention of Christ by Josephus was a forgery added centuries after he write the TF.

 

[Jmille99]

Santa is just a version of God for children.

At least instead of sending you to hell for being bad, Santa just gives you coal. Point goes to Santa in not being a dick.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

I would have given this nut job a large dentist bill. Incredible restraint from the parents.

I don't know if it was necessarily restraint. Have you ever seen those lines for Santa? Nothing short of the building collapsing would get me out of a spot in line.

 

[FortuneFaded]

"Darling, I'm just going to pop in to that gay bar in the centre of town"
"To preach to the unconverted?"
"....Sure"

 

[Chmpocalypse]

I disagree. I think there's plenty you can discuss about the religion, it's philosophies and spirituality. That you think it's a non-starter shows your lack of curiosity about the actual message Jesus preached.

Allegedly preached.

Again, the Josephus 'mention' has been determined even by biblical scholars to be a forgery added centuries later. It's not evidence.

 

[CopperPuppy]

The dude is running a severe risk of getting badly tuned up. A lot of folks where I grew up would tolerate that for all of five seconds.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Well, it would make certain moments more hilarious.

Do they make a "Biblical Mad Libs"? Could be quite entertaining!

 

[elrechazado]

The dude is running a severe risk of getting badly tuned up. A lot of folks where I grew up would tolerate that for all of five seconds.

He would love that. More publicity, more attention, and a nice settlement.

 

[LT Snoshado]

While I don't necessarily agree with this man's methods I do agree with his message. The truth of the matter is the Lord YOUR God gave his only begotten son on the first Christmas 2017 years ago. Santa is a lie perpetuated by Godless corporations to sell merchandise and distract Americans from following the path set by the Lord YOUR God Jesus Christ.

Who is YOUR God Jesus Christ? Santa is fun and this pastor is just trying to ruin Christmas for a bunch of kids who don't know any better!

 

[Two Words]

While I don't necessarily agree with this man's methods I do agree with his message. The truth of the matter is the Lord YOUR God gave his only begotten son on the first Christmas 2017 years ago. Santa is a lie perpetuated by Godless corporations to sell merchandise and distract Americans from following the path set by the Lord YOUR God Jesus Christ.

Nothing about what you said is the truth is actually proven to be true though.

 

[ZoltanXerxes]

If you want to tell people about God, ruining Christmas for a bunch of kids is not a recommended course of action.

 

[fester]

Why knowingly make a factually wrong statement?

Regardless of one's religious views and beliefs, comparing belief in god (or gods) and belief in Santa is a valid comparison.

Both are mythical characters.
Both date back to centuries of tradition.
Both have books written and stories told about them.
Both have believers.

The only significant difference is that Santa's believers are exclusively small children.

Somehow kids find a way to discover the truth about their god while the adults get turned into zealots and never let go.

 

[R0ckman]

Oh great, an HJ debate! It's been a while, but I researched this for quite some time. I've concluded there was a first century preacher named Jesus who was shortly thereafter referred to as "Christos."

There are two references in Josephus. The first lengthy one, "The Testimonium Flavianum," is disputed by scholars. Most hold to partial authenticity, but there is a good case to be made for the whole thing being an interpolation. The second reference is in passing when discussing Jesus' brother James. That is nearly universally regarded as being written by Josephus. One historian has questioned it in recent years, but his criticism is not based on any evidence. He merely presents how it might have been an insertion. I've actually taken him to task for this personally, but the man does not do well with his views being challenged.

Celsus, a pagan critic also mentioned him but he viewed him as nothing more than a sorcerer. He also said that the first century believers did not celebrate ANY holidays and that using the Greek and Latin names were not effective and that they used his hebrew name. The gentile believers were on a whole other level than whats here today.

Most western Christain today are just decended from protestant reformist philosophy, who were basically just using religion as an anarchy tool against the old european monarchy if you read memiors about it. Thats why they are more political than religious.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Dude is coming to a mall by my area (DFW) but does not say which one. I wanna know so I can yell "Trump 2016!" At him.