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AMD Computex 2018 – Will Demonstrate Never-Before-Seen Hardware - Higher Performance APUs with HBM

TheMikado

Banned
In a press release that was forwarded a few hours ago, AMD has mentioned that they will host the Computex 2018 Press Conference on 6th June at 10 A.M. (CST). The press release mentions that AMD’s CEO, Lisa Su, will be hosting the press conference to announce their latest product plans.
AMD Hosting Computex 2018 Press Conference on 6th June – Will Demonstrate Never-Before-Seen Hardware
The most interesting thing about this press conference is that AMD is confirming that they are going to demonstrate never-before-seen hardware at the event. The following is mentioned in AMD’s press release:
AMD Fenghuang 15FF Graphics Chip Equipped APU Shows Up on 3DMark – Faster Than RX Vega M GH, 2 GB HBM2 Clocked at 1200 MHz
Join the webcast of the AMD COMPUTEX TAIPEI 2018 Press Conference on Wednesday, June 6, 201 at 10 a.m. CST / Taipei
The one-hour event will feature:
  • Updates on current and upcoming AMD products by AMD President and CEO Dr. Lisa Su and Senior Vice President and General Manager, Computing and Graphics Business Group, Jim Anderson
  • Appearances by AMD technology partners
  • Never-before-seen AMD hardware demonstrations and new details showcasing AMD high performance leadership and innovation
via AMD​
The press conference is going to last an hour so that’s ample time to showcase new stuff. But there are several things that can be interpreted from this press release. AMD says that the hardware they are going to showcase has never been seen before, but it may have been heard about by the press. Remember, AMD has several products in the pipeline that are expected to release in the future.
In the CPU department, we know that AMD has a couple of Ryzen 2000 series desktop and mobile processors in the work but they don’t sound like much interesting. What does sound interesting is the AMD Ryzen Threadripper 2000 series high-end desktop processors which are definitely heard of before but not seen to date. It will be interesting to see the new AMD X399 Refresh platform and Threadripper 2000 series in action. AMD also plans to introduce Z490 chipset around the second quarter and that may also see the light of day at the event.

In terms of GPU related announcements, AMD is working on 7nm Vega which is part of their AI and DNN aimed Instinct platform. Earlier in a tweet, AMD had stated that 7nm Vega was already working in their labs. Aside from that, Navi is possibly going to make an appearance next year and we might get some update on that as AMD’s Polaris chips were also showcased months before their arrival in the gaming market.

Obviously, we can’t promise anything right now and the hardware can be something entirely new out of the roadmap that is currently public which is what get’s us excited. We will be at Computex at AMD’s press conference to bring you the latest developments live from Taipei. The conference will be live-streamed to the audience sitting around the globe.

What we do know:

https://wccftech.com/amd-fenghuang-apu-3dmark-specs-performance-leak/

Computex 2018 - AMD is pushing for a strong Computex this year, with an exciting unveiling of Vega 20 on 7nm with 32GB of HBM2, but also their new project: Fenghuang 15FF, a new graphics chip for APUs, Fenghuang 15FF is the internal codename for the graphics chip, with the current codename of DG02SRTBP4MFA applied. This chip should be part of the Zen+ APU family with 4C/8T of CPU power, 3GHz clock speed, and 2GB of HBM2 clocked at 1200MHz (2.4GHz effective). AMD's new chip sports 28 CUs and 1792 SPs (up from 24 CUs and 1536 SPs on Vega 24) while there's 2GB of HBM2 at 2.4Gbps offering 307.2GB/sec memory bandwidth, which is up from the 1.6Gbps and 204.8GB/sec offered on Vega 24.

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/62107/amd-fenghuang-15ff-faster-rx-vega-gh-rocks-2gb-hbm2/index.html

AMD’s Fenghuang APU Spotted in 3DMark – Faster Than Intel’s Kaby Lake-G Vega Graphics, 2 GB HBM2 Onboard
The AMD Fenghuang 15FF is an internal codename for the graphics while the chip it was tested with is currently codenamed DG02SRTBP4MFA. There have been different codenames spotted since the chip first leaked out but it should be clear that this is very much an early sample at this stage.


Looking at the specifications reported in 3DMark, the processor itself seems to be a Zen+ based APU part with 4 cores and 8 threads. The chip is clocked at 3.00 GHz base frequency while turbo frequency is currently not reported correctly. The graphics side features 2 GB of HBM2 memory which is clocked at 1200 MHz (2.4 GHz effective). This may just be the fastest clocked HBM2 VRAM speeds that AMD has featured on their graphics yet. The core clock for the chip is reported at 300 MHz but that must be idle as the benchmark isn’t reporting boost/turbo clocks correctly at the moment.

We have previously known that the chip features 28 CUs which incorporate 1792 SPs, making it the beefiest APU solution to date. The AMD supplied Kaby Lake-G chips with RX Vega GPUs come with 24 CUs which has 1536 cores and 4 GB of HBM2 at 945 MHz in comparison.

The chip has in fact been compared to the Intel Core i7-8809G processor which features the RX Vega M GH graphics and is the fastest solution supplied to Intel by AMD. In the GPU benchmark tests, the AMD Fenghuang chip absolutely demolishes the Intel + Vega processor and only lacks behind in the Physics test which is a CPU intensive benchmark. Overall, if AMD can manage to bring such a chip on to the desktop front, it can be a great solution for discrete GPU less gaming. AMD is hosting their Computex 2018 press conference next week where they will be showing off never-before-seen hardware demonstrations so maybe we can expect a look at Fenghuang based APUs.



Why all this is significant:
Rumors have been circulating of AMDs exit from the high performance graphics market.
I've theorized in the past that an HBM on die on die APU could theoretically do to the Video card what happened to the low and mid tier sound card in the 90s.
AMD appears to be posed to introduce High graphical performance APUs with HBM. The net effect is that graphical performance becomes highly affordable.
For reference the AMD Fenghuang chip at 1200mhz would out perform the PS4 Pro and have have more bandwidth than even the Xbox One X and likely do so for under $300.

I has 28 compute units, exactly half of a Vega 56.
My personal theory was that PS5/XB2 would use off the shelf APUs and this give more credence to the idea.
Technically a PS5 could put two of the above chips at 1400mhz on a 7nm process and get 10tflops easy. No custom chips needed.
Although I anticipate a 32 compute unit version at 1475mhz soon which would be better suit for a dual APU setup in a next gen console.

In either case AMD was playing a very different long game when it linked its horse to HBM it plans to corner the low and mid processor market completely by having intergrated gpu perform that at this point cannot be replicated. Further this should do well for future consoles in terms of price and performance. I know its too soon to say, but I could easily see a $300 PS5 at around 12 Tflops.
 
This is what i've been wanting AMD to focus for years: Strong APUs. If they are able to supply them to console manufactures there's no reason for AMD not to have those for the PC space. Hopefuly this could signify the return of budget middle range gaming to PCs again.

Those 2GBs of HMB should help mitigate the memory bandwidth issues. Now that AMD has a decent CPU architecture they could cook up a fatntastic solution for a cheap price. Kaby Lake G is amazing but too expensive... it so encouraging to hear that this APU could surpass it in performance. The question is how soon could AMD have this product available to the market?
 

TheMikado

Banned
This is what i've been wanting AMD to focus for years: Strong APUs. If they are able to supply them to console manufactures there's no reason for AMD not to have those for the PC space. Hopefuly this could signify the return of budget middle range gaming to PCs again.

Those 2GBs of HMB should help mitigate the memory bandwidth issues. Now that AMD has a decent CPU architecture they could cook up a fatntastic solution for a cheap price. Kaby Lake G is amazing but too expensive... it so encouraging to hear that this APU could surpass it in performance. The question is how soon could AMD have this product available to the market?

I’d imagine it would be here in 2019.
That’s what I’m counting on to, this would completely change gaming across the board. Powerful low price PCs means devs can target higher system specs and if consoles are built on this same premise with the low power they are targeting there’s no reason you couldnt get everything from a high powered tablet to workstation PCs.
 

lukilladog

Member
Advances in apu´s are looking awesome, they already make some low end graphics look stupid... while consoles seem to be doing well too, no one would have believed a few years ago that you could play console games at a resolution that makes $1000 cards choke @50fps. If AMD could translate such enthusiasm onto their desktop cards :O
 
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TheMikado

Banned
Advances in apu´s are looking awesome, they already make some low end graphics look stupid... while consoles seem to be doing well too, no one would have believed a few years ago that you could play console games at a resolution that makes $1000 cards choke @50fps. If AMD could translate such enthusiasm onto their desktop cards :O

Well the end goal here could be very interesting.

Theoretically Sony/MS could pluck the above mentioned APUs right off the line and pop two into a box and be done. Even more so if a 32cu version comes out like I'm predicting. And that's assuming AMD doesn't go the threadripper route with these APUs and essentially ducktapes them together.

Either way the price of the chip itself should be substantially cheaper. If its like that for every consoles they are planning, this could be a precursor to it and the setup will not be exotic for developers. Widespread adoption of these AMDs means better console games for us as less time and budget is spent on the technicals and more on the creative aspects. That said it may be feasible for Sony and MS to pick up the chip close to at cost manufacturing. If the chips are the same as their PC counterparts have Sony/MS volumes would help them get their chips yield up and cost down for the PC market too.

If I'm totaling this right a hypothetical PS5 at cost/volume could look like this: $120 Dual APU/ 4GB HBM 10-12Tflops. $45 16GB GDDR6. $80 4K Bluray + SSHD drive. $45 Misc components. Total= $290.
 

Silver Wattle

Gold Member
Good to see them finally getting serious with APU's.
I'm waiting out for a Zen 3 APU (35-45W Laptop) with 16GB HBM shared system memory, at least 1440p with Freesync and HDR600 rated screen.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Good to see them finally getting serious with APU's.
I'm waiting out for a Zen 3 APU (35-45W Laptop) with 16GB HBM shared system memory, at least 1440p with Freesync and HDR600 rated screen.

I can’t imagine you’re going to see a 16GB APU anytime soon, HBM isn’t designed to replace system RAM.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
I can’t imagine you’re going to see a 16GB APU anytime soon, HBM isn’t designed to replace system RAM.

True, but it is in the specs to grow beyond 2-4 GB, it was a major design effort for HBM2 and HBM3 will go in the same direction. Taller stacks with more layers and support for more stacks.

It remains to be seen how much better split memory could be before Sony goes back to it (HBM + GDDR5/6 for main RAM). When Sony was evaluating PS4 memory solution and thinking about eDRAM + “slower” main RAM vs shared memory pool they were looking at TB/s bandwidth for the small and fast memory pool (so a huge huge leap over the speed of main RAM, not just a normal speed bump over it and better latency).

I think the trick should be similar to what they pulled for PS4 (similar to what they did on PS4 Pro too with the changes to the GPU, but the lack of RAM impeded then a bit compared to Xbox One X developers who could brute force better assets, especially this, and higher resolutions in more easily). Give a lot of power relatively easy to harvest and exploit by multiplatform developers while including a host of customisations and other tricks that first party have a financial / strategic interest to invest in while third parties start warming up to them and integrate them in their codebases.

They could go back to a giant moderately fast main RAM pool (16 GB) and a super fast on chip/module smaller pool (2-4 GB of HBM2/3) if the HW and software tools were really great at automatic management of what would need to essentially be just a very very fast mostly automated cache+scratchpad (CPU and GPU could both write to and read from it in a locked portion of it when the rest, whatever is left after the game decided how much to lock, is managed by the system as a very large cache). AMD does have something to help with such a strategy. Sony would also need a GPU that is able to make use of so much extra bandwidth, which adds to the costs even further... if they were to invest in some raytracing HW acceleration of sorts would developers prefer to have this smaller uber fast memory pool?

The risk is MS using just a “simple” pool of 16 GB GDDR6 and the bandwidth of this solution being close enough to the smaller fast memory pool of their competitor... most third party developers would then likely use MS solution as lead console and Sony May risk having an expensive under-utilised solution in their hands, kind of a reversal of this generation actually. They would need to make their custom HW enhancements a real and practical for third party developers game changer of sorts to be able to pull this off.

I see a shared memory pool as continuing this generation, regardless of the type of RAM used, and if say they had a raytracing accelerator the extra memory resources would be dedicated to it and mostly transparent to developers in a way that makes it practical to use and optimise for, but does not change the memory model much for regular games which do not use the accelerator. Meaning also that the console would need to match their competition in power even without taking the accelerator unit into account.
 

DESTROYA

Member
Would love to see the “Fenghuang” APU in a laptop.
Not sure if it’s even doable (is it desktop, mobile?) but I’ve been wanting to get a new AMD laptop for while but the 2700U/2500U just didn’t cut it for me ( not AMD’s fault but OEM’s either not offering dual channel RAM or stifling performance with low TDP)
Admittedly I haven’t been paying full attention to newer models released so I’m not sure if some OEM’s have dual channel Ram and full TDP for the best performance on a 2700U laptop.
My first laptop had AMD hardware and I’ve got a soft spot for them and glad to see them up there game.
 

TheMikado

Banned
Would love to see the “Fenghuang” APU in a laptop.
Not sure if it’s even doable (is it desktop, mobile?) but I’ve been wanting to get a new AMD laptop for while but the 2700U/2500U just didn’t cut it for me ( not AMD’s fault but OEM’s either not offering dual channel RAM or stifling performance with low TDP)
Admittedly I haven’t been paying full attention to newer models released so I’m not sure if some OEM’s have dual channel Ram and full TDP for the best performance on a 2700U laptop.
My first laptop had AMD hardware and I’ve got a soft spot for them and glad to see them up there game.

It would fit in a laptop pretty easily considering they already have this.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/acer-new-amd-based-laptop-desktops-this-summer/
Acer crams a Ryzen 7 CPU, discrete RX Vega 56 graphics into a 17-inch laptop
 

TheMikado

Banned
True, but it is in the specs to grow beyond 2-4 GB, it was a major design effort for HBM2 and HBM3 will go in the same direction. Taller stacks with more layers and support for more stacks.

It remains to be seen how much better split memory could be before Sony goes back to it (HBM + GDDR5/6 for main RAM). When Sony was evaluating PS4 memory solution and thinking about eDRAM + “slower” main RAM vs shared memory pool they were looking at TB/s bandwidth for the small and fast memory pool (so a huge huge leap over the speed of main RAM, not just a normal speed bump over it and better latency).

I think the trick should be similar to what they pulled for PS4 (similar to what they did on PS4 Pro too with the changes to the GPU, but the lack of RAM impeded then a bit compared to Xbox One X developers who could brute force better assets, especially this, and higher resolutions in more easily). Give a lot of power relatively easy to harvest and exploit by multiplatform developers while including a host of customisations and other tricks that first party have a financial / strategic interest to invest in while third parties start warming up to them and integrate them in their codebases.

They could go back to a giant moderately fast main RAM pool (16 GB) and a super fast on chip/module smaller pool (2-4 GB of HBM2/3) if the HW and software tools were really great at automatic management of what would need to essentially be just a very very fast mostly automated cache+scratchpad (CPU and GPU could both write to and read from it in a locked portion of it when the rest, whatever is left after the game decided how much to lock, is managed by the system as a very large cache). AMD does have something to help with such a strategy. Sony would also need a GPU that is able to make use of so much extra bandwidth, which adds to the costs even further... if they were to invest in some raytracing HW acceleration of sorts would developers prefer to have this smaller uber fast memory pool?

The risk is MS using just a “simple” pool of 16 GB GDDR6 and the bandwidth of this solution being close enough to the smaller fast memory pool of their competitor... most third party developers would then likely use MS solution as lead console and Sony May risk having an expensive under-utilised solution in their hands, kind of a reversal of this generation actually. They would need to make their custom HW enhancements a real and practical for third party developers game changer of sorts to be able to pull this off.

I see a shared memory pool as continuing this generation, regardless of the type of RAM used, and if say they had a raytracing accelerator the extra memory resources would be dedicated to it and mostly transparent to developers in a way that makes it practical to use and optimise for, but does not change the memory model much for regular games which do not use the accelerator. Meaning also that the console would need to match their competition in power even without taking the accelerator unit into account.

I don't think that's something we would see. A 4 stack of 1GB HBM2 could be up to 1TB of bandwidth, meanwhile 16GB of GDDR6 are only going to be around half that at 500GB. So if MS did just use 16GB GDDR6 they would be beaten out the game on bandwidth just from the 4GB HBM alone and that assuming its not even HBM3 or something in between. That said Sony could still just put 16GB of GDDR6 RAM in as system ram.

This way it would operate just like any other graphics card where if it runs out of VRAM it uses system ram. The difference being that GDDR6 is VRAM memory anyway so you have high bandwidth speed for you fail-over VRAM too unlike a PC.

It would also be consistent with reports of a "discrete GPU" where the GPU itself may not actually be discrete but the VRAM might. This also has the added advantage of not crowding the memory bus for both system and graphics data, basically the rendering can remain totally separate from the system RAM which should ease concerns about latency and memory timings.

If going the unified route you would need close to 32GB of GDDR6 just to get the bandwidth of 4GB stack of HBM. Even if MS put 24GB of GDDR6 you're still talking about 800GB of bandwidth and less than half the total bandwidth a theoretical 4GB HBM + 16GB GDDR6 configuration would have. Thus, when talking about cost and performance the split makes more sense, especially if they would want a mobile PS5 in the future, Because the HBM is tiny and sits on chip its additional power, heat, and space savings which would be crucial to a handheld.

As for ray-tracing, I doubt we would see the full extend of it until Navi, and even then I think they would reserve that for a PS5 pro edition.
The PS5 GPU has been claimed to be Vega with Navi extensions.

Again judging by the leaks and rumore I'm drawing a few conclusions:

The two biggest departures with Navi thus far are Super SIMD and the fact that Super SIMD can use partial ALUs.
My theory is that using Super SIMD to share the output to partial ALUs which specialize in ray tracing will be the technical way this is achieved.
My theory for the PS5 is that it will have one or the other feature but not the full feature set, meaning the GPU will either have some super SIMD capabilities or small partial ALUs for ray-tracing. I personally think it will be Super SIMD because you would get more benefit in ray-tracing calculations than partial ALUs, but mixed together for Navi should boast some impressive results in that field.

Anyway. the split ram is what I am banking on because when I've previously predicted this I said we would need to see APUs with on-board APUs first in order to confirm this would likely be what we see in next gen consoles and really next gen PCs as a whole. Well we have it now so its only a matter of time until its reveal.
 
Advances in apu´s are looking awesome, they already make some low end graphics look stupid... while consoles seem to be doing well too, no one would have believed a few years ago that you could play console games at a resolution that makes $1000 cards choke @50fps. If AMD could translate such enthusiasm onto their desktop cards :O
Just had to quote this nonsense. Hard to believe that in this day and age of internet people are still so uninformed or just trolling.

Simply run a multiplat title at console settings at ps4 pro resolution [mostly 1920x2160, checkerboard rendering] and you will see 120 fps on 1080ti [that's 4 times higher, remember that ps4 pro is 30fps minus a few exceptions where multiplats like BF run at ~45fps].
 

Dontero

Banned
Advances in apu´s are looking awesome, they already make some low end graphics look stupid... while consoles seem to be doing well too, no one would have believed a few years ago that you could play console games at a resolution that makes $1000 cards choke @50fps. If AMD could translate such enthusiasm onto their desktop cards :O

??

Mate 600$ card runs mostly EVERYTHING on ULTRA at TRUE 4K (not that checkboard nonsense) @ 60fps+. If you go down to medium which is about what consoles do then 80-90fps wouldn't be a problem.
Meanwhile "pro" version of consoles do 1920x2160 at shaky 25-30fps with mostly medium-high settings.

In fact "PRO" version underperform compared to their PC counterparts as they are blocked by crappy cpu.
 

llien

Member
I would like to feel excited but...
What we already know is:
1) 7nm activities starting en mass end of 2018
2) The first 7nm GPU will be, again, Vega and not just any Vega, but the Data Center oriented one

So, what we could see, at best, is some better mobile APUs, perhaps.
 
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TheMikado

Banned
I would like to feel excited but...
What we already know is:
1) 7nm activities starting en mass end of 2018
2) The first 7nm GPU will be, again, Vega and not just any Vega, but the Data Center oriented one

So, what we could see, at best, is some better mobile APUs, perhaps.

But that's the exciting part. Better APUs mean better future consoles, means high baseline for developers and less money spent on optimizations.
 

xool

Member
Next gen won't be APU's.
Well maybe. [edit - I'm expecting a single chip package though .. one heatsink not two also makes sense]

There'll probably be an silicon interposer (especially if it's AMD with HBM memory), and given that the interposer cost is already there it might make sense to split the chip up for smaller individual die sizes for better yields.

Not sure where this technology will be in time for PS5/XTWO.

Personally I'm wondering if HBM costs will delay the next gen, or maybe we'll get GDDR6 .. or ??
 
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TheMikado

Banned
They surely don't.

From a cost/performance standpoint they have to be.

https://gizmodo.com/amds-newest-processors-are-so-good-you-can-skip-the-gra-1822920100

Example: The APU destroys one of AMDs cheaper discrete

The Ryzen 3 MSRP is $99 which is the price of the 550 alone without a the cheapest Ryzen 3 1200 processor at another $100.

For reference the Ryzen 3/5 APUs give 2x the performance for half the price of a low-end discreet CPU/GPU solution.
graphics cards that is between $80-$160
 

lukilladog

Member
Just had to quote this nonsense. Hard to believe that in this day and age of internet people are still so uninformed or just trolling.

Simply run a multiplat title at console settings at ps4 pro resolution [mostly 1920x2160, checkerboard rendering] and you will see 120 fps on 1080ti [that's 4 times higher, remember that ps4 pro is 30fps minus a few exceptions where multiplats like BF run at ~45fps].

Yes, xboxX is doing native 4k in quite a few games like the latest farcry. Yes, it does it at console like framerates/gfx settings. Yes, $1000 cards struggle to hold 60fps at 4k without slashing the settings. Yes, that´s a first in console-pc battle... well at least since the 90´s.

??

Mate 600$ card runs mostly EVERYTHING on ULTRA at TRUE 4K (not that checkboard nonsense) @ 60fps+. If you go down to medium which is about what consoles do then 80-90fps wouldn't be a problem.
Meanwhile "pro" version of consoles do 1920x2160 at shaky 25-30fps with mostly medium-high settings.

In fact "PRO" version underperform compared to their PC counterparts as they are blocked by crappy cpu.

Yeah, if by EVERYTHING you mean anything that is not a demanding game.
 
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svbarnard

Banned
Well it's the 6th of June any news on this new hardware thats never been seen before? Piqued my curiousity is all.
 

svbarnard

Banned
They showed Threadripper 2 with up to 32 Cores on stage (without the heatspreader), 7nm Vega 20 and a second generation 7nm EPYC processor sample although only with the heatspreader so you couldn't see how big the chips are.

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-announces-32-core-ryzen-threadripper-2000-cpu
https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-confirms-7nm-gpus-are-coming-to-gamers

No talking about the Fenghuang chip, ya know the one that has HBM on die APU?

"Rumors have been circulating of AMDs exit from the high performance graphics market.
I've theorized in the past that an HBM on die on die APU could theoretically do to the Video card what happened to the low and mid tier sound card in the 90s.
AMD appears to be posed to introduce High graphical performance APUs with HBM. The net effect is that graphical performance becomes highly affordable.
For reference the AMD Fenghuang chip at 1200mhz would out perform the PS4 Pro and have have more bandwidth than even the Xbox One X and likely do so for under $300."
 

Dontero

Banned
No talking about the Fenghuang chip, ya know the one that has HBM on die APU?

"Rumors have been circulating of AMDs exit from the high performance graphics market.
I've theorized in the past that an HBM on die on die APU could theoretically do to the Video card what happened to the low and mid tier sound card in the 90s.
AMD appears to be posed to introduce High graphical performance APUs with HBM. The net effect is that graphical performance becomes highly affordable.
For reference the AMD Fenghuang chip at 1200mhz would out perform the PS4 Pro and have have more bandwidth than even the Xbox One X and likely do so for under $300."

Problem is that you are talking about something integrated and non-upgradable. Which menas once you buy APU you are stuck with GPU. Meanwhile if you buy low tier GPU in 2-3 years next low tier GPU will be 3-5 times faster than APU one but you won't be able to upgrade APU gpu.

What AMD does will have bigger inpact on laptops than desktops.
 
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