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As a longtime skeptic of 2D Sonic, I finally "get it" with Sonic Mania

The one thing I wish made the transition from S3&K are the alternate routes and bosses when you play as Knuckles. If you played Sonic 3 back in the day you probably remember all those blocked off areas Sonic couldn't access. It wasn't until the Sonic & Knuckles addon a year later that you could select Knuckles and start exploring all those secret areas and alternate bosses.
 

Guess Who

Banned
The one thing I wish made the transition from S3&K are the alternate routes and bosses when you play as Knuckles. If you played Sonic 3 back in the day you probably remember all those blocked off areas Sonic couldn't access. It wasn't until the Sonic & Knuckles addon a year later that you could select Knuckles and start exploring all those secret areas and alternate bosses.

Quite a few zones have Knuckles-exclusive routes in Mania via breakable walls, and there's a few acts that start differently or end differently as Knuckles (and one act that is entirely Knuckles-exclusive).
 

Acerac

Banned
Christ this is the most boring argument ever. It's obvious what they meant.

Perhaps people should say what they mean instead of saying things that they don't mean and letting everyone else correct their statements for them? Or is that too boring?
 
zmEZXOd4h4kgw.gif


Sonic-Utopia-Fan-Game-gif.gif


Perfection. Utopia is just so god damn good. Want a full game like it sooooo bad.
I see gaming media outlets talking about how to make a 3D Sonic when there are several great ideas like Utopia waiting to be capitalized.
 

jman2050

Member
FWIW the Utopia project head made a recent post on Retro saying that the proof-of-concept GHZ is not really reflective of the type of level structure they're going for with Utopia. It's definitely being intended to be more classically "Sonic" than some sprawling overworld sandbox type of deal. Mostly the GHZ demo was just that: a demonstration of the engine and the gameplay mechanics.

Definitely interested to see what direction in goes in in the future.
 

Neiteio

Member
Seriously, this game is so addictive.

I think I mentioned this in another thread, but usually I start by replaying either one of my favorite zones (i.e. Studiopolis) or a zone that I feel I haven't played much recently. And from there, I often end up playing through all of the zones that follow. This then acts as a "palate cleanser" so that by the time I get back to my favorite zones, they feel like brand new again, haha. My appreciation also deepens for the stages I hadn't played much. And really, every zone is fun.

Stardust Speedway used to be one of the stages I didn't like as much, but I replayed it last night and it's really grown on me. There's a great flow to springing off vines, using the pulleys, growing plants and hopping up their leaves, launching out of cannons and bouncing around. Plus, the boss is a pretty epic midpoint for the game.

Metallic Madness
continues to reveal new layers to its design, too. There are so many paths to take, and so many unique stage elements and obstacles. Really strong design, although there are a lot of traps that encourage a high level of caution.
 

PKrockin

Member
Ha, I used to feel this way when I was younger. From Sonic 2 on up, I would spin dash and if the ceiling was low enough, I would take off and bump against it. Upon landing I'm running at near top speed.

Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 , you could spin dash and release and then hit the spin button briefly to uncurl and maintain speed while running.

Always wanted to do a Sonic Tornado in a game too, if anyone remembers that move from the two cartoons. Hell in one episode of AoSTH, he could even pick it up the base of the tornado and toss it! XD

I'm not sure if this is quite what you're talking about but Sonic Heroes has the Tornado Jump that knocks enemies into the air and takes away their shields.


Sonic 06 has an unlockable tornado move as well but it's Sonic 06.
 
Sonic 1 is easily the weak one of the "Classics". 2, 3 and Knuckles (and now Mania) are the ones that really refined the formula. 3 and Knuckles is a little hard to come by these days, probably due to the whole Michael Jackson OST issue, so it's not really on official modern systems, so I think you'd need one of those old Genesis collections or the Wii VC for that.
Or practically any PC in existence.
 
I keep seeing people asking for a Taxman Collection. What are the Taxman games and why are they special?

Taxman was primarily responsible for remasters of Sonic 1, 2, and CD on his own game engine called the Retro Engine. The games are almost entirely rebuilt from the ground up, which allows for improvements such as widescreen and 60fps. The games also have additional bonuses, including Knuckles and the spin dash in Sonic 1, along with Tails and selectable soundtracks (English/Japanese) in Sonic CD. Besides that, you can't even tell they were rebuilt - they look and play 99.9% like the originals (and the 0.1% is improved). They're bar none the best versions of those games, but sadly Sonic 1 and 2 are stuck on mobile (Sonic CD was released on PC, 360, and PS3).
 
I keep seeing people asking for a Taxman Collection. What are the Taxman games and why are they special?

They're enhanced remakes of Sonic 1, 2, and CD that run on Christian Whitehead's (who worked on Sonic Mania) Retro Engine. They include a whole bunch of QOL improvements and other additional goodies, like improved frame rate, screenspace, controls, etc. Sonic CD adds the ability to play as Tails and switch between the US and JP soundtracks. Sonic 1 & 2 adds the option to play as Knuckles and Tails and even includes the long lost Hidden Palace Zone in the latter.

They are all by far the definitive versions of those games, but the only issue is that Sonic 1 & 2 are still stuck on iOS/Android for god knows why.

edit: basically what the xtortionist said lol
 
Sp, basically, people asking for a "Taxman collection" want all the original Sonic games (ideally, including Sonic 3 & Knuckles)

Y'know, at this point I'd be ok if Taxman/Sega just say "fuck it" and have da gawd Tee Lopes create new original themes for Carnival Night, Icecap, and Launch Base. Gotta get S3&K out the door sometime.
 
^ I wouldn't miss those themes much so I'd root for this (yep, even the beloved Ice Cap, I feel you could retain the icy synth feel with a stronger, longer melody).

Meanwhile, with the lack of Taxman versions of 1 and 2 on consoles there's always the stellar 3D Classic versions on 3DS.
 

Shadio

Member
Y'know, at this point I'd be ok if Taxman/Sega just say "fuck it" and have da gawd Tee Lopes create new original themes for Carnival Night, Icecap, and Launch Base. Gotta get S3&K out the door sometime.

I'd be happy with that. Maybe he could do Marble Garden Zone too, while he's at it.
 

Neiteio

Member
I see Sonic spindashing through loops and tubes when I close my eyes at night

This is all Xtortionist's fault for convincing me to try this game
 

Shang

Member
As a person who never had patience for the other Sonic games, I'm enjoying Mania a lot. Mainly because of the many cool boss ideas that keep the game fresh. I think 2D Sonic is certainly enjoyable, but doesn't hold a candle to tighter (in design and control) platformers like Mario
 
I see Sonic spindashing through loops and tubes when I close my eyes at night

This is all Xtortionist's fault for convincing me to try this game

Vt2Si2Z.gif


one down, one to go

you'll never see it comin'

As a person who never had patience for the other Sonic games, I'm enjoying Mania a lot. Mainly because of the many cool boss ideas that keep the game fresh. I think 2D Sonic is certainly enjoyable, but doesn't hold a candle to tighter (in design and control) platformers like Mario

Sonic is pretty dang tight. He just has mad physics.
 

Neiteio

Member
Also, I'd like to refute this notion that Sonic's platforming is not "tight."

It's perfectly tight. You have air control to adjust your jump trajectory; you can control jump height with short or sustained presses of the jump button; your momentum is as you'd expect, and frankly much tighter than how Mario controls in the NSMB games.

In (World 11 spoiler)
Metallic Madness
, I make pixel-perfect jumps onto small rotating platforms with ease. In Flying Battery, I make death-defying leaps onto small propeller platforms. It all feels perfectly reliable.

So yeah. Sonic Mania is super-tight, quick and responsive.
 

Opa-Pa

Member
Also, I'd like to refute this notion that Sonic's platforming is not "tight."

It's perfectly tight. You have air control to adjust your jump trajectory; you can control jump height with short or sustained presses of the jump button; your momentum is as you'd expect, and frankly much tighter than how Mario controls in the NSMB games.

In (World 11 spoiler)
Metallic Madness
, I make pixel-perfect jumps onto small rotating platforms with ease. In Flying Battery, I make death-defying leaps onto small propeller platforms. It all feels perfectly reliable.

So yeah. Sonic Mania is super-tight, quick and responsive.

Level design is particularly versatile and well thought despite having so many alternate routes, it's crazy. I'm constantly amazed when I try progressing in ways that are obviously not the intended ones, like doing big jumps trying to skip sections and risking falling to my death, and more often than not I make it with such precision that it's clear that the devs predicted some players were going to try it.

The amount of effort put into this is insane.
 

Neiteio

Member
Level design is particularly versatile and well thought despite having so many alternate routes, it's crazy. I'm constantly amazed when I try progressing in ways that are obviously not the intended ones, like doing big jumps trying to skip sections and risking falling to my death, and more often than not I make it with such precision that it's clear that the devs predicted some players were going to try it.

The amount of effort put into this is insane.
Yep, I think this is particularly evident on Stardust Speedway Act 2, where you can make blind leaps of faith just about anywhere and still land in a cannon, loop, chute or incline that seems to have perfectly anticipated you might try to leap the way you just did.
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
Also, I'd like to refute this notion that Sonic's platforming is not "tight."

It's perfectly tight. You have air control to adjust your jump trajectory; you can control jump height with short or sustained presses of the jump button; your momentum is as you'd expect, and frankly much tighter than how Mario controls in the NSMB games.

In (World 11 spoiler)
Metallic Madness
, I make pixel-perfect jumps onto small rotating platforms with ease. In Flying Battery, I make death-defying leaps onto small propeller platforms. It all feels perfectly reliable.

So yeah. Sonic Mania is super-tight, quick and responsive.

I've really enjoyed reading your posts, Neiteio, because I think you and I have both been very pleasantly surprised by a game we had no expectation to utterly blow us away like Sonic Mania has.

If it weren't for absolute genre-smashing successes like BOTW and Bloodborne, SM has the chops to stand toe-to-toe with other "games of the generation."
 

Neiteio

Member
I've really enjoyed reading your posts, Neiteio, because I think you and I have both been very pleasantly surprised by a game we had no expectation to utterly blow us away like Sonic Mania has.

If it weren't for absolute genre-smashing successes like BOTW and Bloodborne, SM has the chops to stand toe-to-toe with other "games of the generation."
Agreed on all counts. I think Sonic Mania might be one of the most pure games this generation, though. You can digest each of its stages in under 10 minutes, and the effect is very potent, in the best possible way. I imagine this is what taking really strong drugs is like!
 
Yep, I think this is particularly evident on Stardust Speedway Act 2, where you can make blind leaps of faith just about anywhere and still land in a cannon, loop, chute or incline that seems to have perfectly anticipated you might try to leap the way you just did.

I have no idea how the level design was approached for Mania. In most platformers you would have these individual scenarios strung together in a more-or-less linear fashion along a single, often-flat route. In a given Mania level you have dozens, if not more of these bits, but they're thrown all over the place to create multiple intersecting paths throughout a titanic (lol) playspace. And yet, navigation is always intuitive and you'll hardly ever feel lost, even when stages often require moving from right to left. The placement of obstacles rarely feels haphazard, even though I would wager that zooming out on a Mania level map would produce an indecipherable visual cacophony. But in practice, it just works. Really great stuff.

I don't really understand what's so good about this game. Isn't half of it a rehash of old Sonic levels?

no

Act 1 of classic stages generally tend to hit the memorable beats of all acts of the original stage. Act 2 often features completely new layouts and gimmicks. Even certain Act1s of classic stages are outfitted with all new level backgrounds, and each theme is brilliantly remixed. As a result, the old stuff doesn't really feel old at all.
 

Neiteio

Member
I don't really understand what's so good about this game. Isn't half of it a rehash of old Sonic levels?
Two-thirds of the worlds were in previous Sonic games. Each world has two stages. However, each returning world has one (or in some cases two) all-new stages complete with their own music, art, gimmicks and boss battles. And the stages that were brought back have been modified. That, coupled with the vibrantly colorful and beautifully animated 32-bit presentation, the enhanced spatial awareness of 16:9 widescreen, and other touches like the addition of the drop-dash all improve the experience. Also, the new worlds/stages in this game are top-notch.

Of course, if you're a relative newcomer to the series like me, it's pretty much all new, and it's AMAZING.
 

Skel1ingt0n

I can't *believe* these lazy developers keep making file sizes so damn large. Btw, how does technology work?
I don't really understand what's so good about this game. Isn't half of it a rehash of old Sonic levels?

It takes the most memorable, best parts of classic favorites that haven't been faithfully respected in 15+ years, and then revamps them with modern features (widescreen, 1080p, locked 60fps, Switch-support if that's your thing) and brand-new enhancements (better level design, better art, better enemy placement) alongside new surprises (comepletey revamped secrets, new paths, brand new stage surprises).

And then, on top of that, gives us brand-new material that truly, without exaggeration, stands toe-to-toe with the series' all-time bests.

It's a loveletter to Sonic, retro-gaming, the "16 bit era," and in general, our nostalgia. It's pure. It's distilled. It's just nothing but the "fun parts." And then the team lathered on an incredible soundtrack and a bunch of fun extras.

If you don't care for old-school Sonic, platformers, or "classic sidescrollers," this probably isn't going to be fore you. But if you do, this is the most pure recreation of that in ages.
 

Neiteio

Member
I have no idea how the level design was approached for Mania. In most platformers you would have these individual scenarios strung together in a more-or-less linear fashion along a single, often-flat route. In a given Mania level you have dozens, if not more of these bits, but they're thrown all over the place to create multiple intersecting paths throughout a titanic (lol) playspace. And yet, navigation is always intuitive and you'll hardly ever feel lost, even when stages often require moving from right to left. The placement of obstacles rarely feels haphazard, even though I would wager that zooming out on a Mania level map would produce an indecipherable visual cacophony. But in practice, it just works. Really great stuff.
I'm hoping people will hack this game soon and upload full level maps so I can see how everything fits together. Zones like
Metallic Madness
and
Titanic Monarch
seem so enormous and complex that it's hard to visualize how they fit together. And yet, like you said, they feel very intuitive to navigate, no matter how you approach them. It's inspiring.
 

mokeyjoe

Member
no

Act 1 of classic stages generally tend to hit the memorable beats of all acts of the original stage. Act 2 often features completely new layouts and gimmicks. Even certain Act1s of classic stages are outfitted with all new level backgrounds, and each theme is brilliantly remixed. As a result, the old stuff doesn't really feel old at all.


Two-thirds of the worlds were in previous Sonic games. Each world has two stages. However, each returning world has one (or in some cases two) all-new stages complete with their own music, art, gimmicks and boss battles. And the stages that were brought back have been modified. That, coupled with the vibrantly colorful and beautifully animated 32-bit presentation, the enhanced spatial awareness of 16:9 widescreen, and other touches like the addition of the drop-dash all improve the experience. Also, the new worlds/stages in this game are top-notch.

Of course, if you're a relative newcomer to the series like me, it's pretty much all new, and it's AMAZING.

Thanks for the responses. I still don't really see what the fuss is about, it just sounds like another Sonic the Hedgehog to me. I guess the fact I didn't think a great deal of them the first time round means this probably isn't for me either. One for the fans I guess.
 
I'm hoping people will hack this game soon and upload full level maps so I can see how everything fits together. Zones like
Metallic Madness
and
Titanic Monarch
seem so enormous and complex that it's hard to visualize how they fit together. And yet, like you said, they feel very intuitive to navigate, no matter how you approach them. It's inspiring.

If you had played the old games I could happily direct you to Zone 0 for all your map gazing needs in the mean time.
 

Neiteio

Member
Thanks for the responses. I still don't really see what the fuss is about, it just sounds like another Sonic the Hedgehog to me. I guess the fact I didn't think a great deal of them the first time round means this probably isn't for me either. One for the fans I guess.
I started this whole thread on the premise that I didn't care for 2D Sonic back in the day and I didn't understand the appeal back in the day, but with Sonic Mania it's clicked, in no small part because it's just done so well here. You might want to check it out!
 

mokeyjoe

Member
I started this whole thread on the premise that I didn't care for 2D Sonic back in the day and I didn't understand the appeal back in the day, but with Sonic Mania it's clicked, in no small part because it's just done so well here. You might want to check it out!

Well I mean that's what I was asking, as I was curious, but most of the responses seem to be of the 'love letter to Sonic' variety.

Sometimes a game just 'clicks' because it's the right game at the right time for you, not because it's doing anything particularly new or different. I was wondering if this was doing anything new, but apparently that isn't the case - more of a refinement of a formula.
 

Neiteio

Member
One detail I find myself really enjoying in this game (and I know it was in the other 2D Sonics as well) is freeing all of the cute lil' animals.

There's one trapped in every badnik, and of course a whole bunch of them in the capsule at the end of each zone. Makes you actually feel like a hero when you see the cute lil' penguins and piglets and turtles, etc, hopping happily across the screen. :-3
 
I missed this thread when it first came up and wish I'd seen it then, but I was on the road, away from NeoGAF, and wrapped up in my impulse purchase of one of the biggest positive surprises I've ever played, Sonic Mania.

Advance TL;DR for those who don't want to read the wall ahead: this is the gateway game. Evidently not all the holdouts will warm to it—Sonic design is still Sonic design—but if you ever told yourself you might give the hedgehog one final chance to see what the fuss is about, even if Sonic never clicked for you, I know where you are coming from and can confirm that Mania is where you want to give Sonic one last begrudging shot.

*

A month ago I was firmly in the "Sonic was never great" camp. I played 1 and 2 (including 2 on Game Gear) back when they were current, then took another crack at the series on the Wii VC, and never really did think of Sonic as a platforming series that was up to scratch with the classics, suspecting it would never have stacked up nearly as well (the reliably infectious music aside) were it not set up as Sega's mascot, its answer to Mario. And indeed, I posted exhaustively to that effect in the "I don't understand Sonic" thread, where the few non-toxic posts that took the time and patience to examine the kind of mindset required of engaging with Sonic design were actually very valuable and convinced me to take a chance on a game I seriously doubted I would like, as the rapturous praise on Mania's release seemed to come largely from long-suffering Sonic fans overjoyed at its conjunction of retro competence and fan service, and I was not of their tribe.

The word "mindset" is really quite important here. My off-the-shelf example for the past year or so (before Mania anyway) has been Paper Mario: Color Splash, which is immensely more enjoyable if you spend big and hit hard, abandoning the tendency towards hoarding consumables and saving your best breakable weapons for big or desperate moments, like you might in a typical JRPG or a game with tighter ammunition/durability management. (This applies to BotW as well: it's more fun when you don't hoard so cautiously that your inventory is constantly overflowing with precious, high-powered, hard-to-find junk.) Sometimes, approach is everything, and understanding how a Sonic game is put together isn't the same thing as understanding how to have fun with it.

To this end, the most valuable advice in the dregs of that other thread was to recognize the arcade underpinnings of Sonic's design and take it like Star Fox, thinking of the stages as built in a few distinct lanes where if you miss the lane change you wanted, suck it up, don't get attached to it, and keep an eye out for it on the next run. It's a pinball machine where you play as the ball, and sometimes you just won't get the bounces you want. From time to time you have to play reactively.

Now, the interesting thing about this kind of platformer design, where you are constantly zipping past points of no return, is that there are equivalents to it in other games. It's there in SMB with the inability to scroll the screen left (the one and only thing that has truly aged in SMB, which I don't think anyone misses), and it's there throughout the platformer genre in the form of auto-scrolls or escape sequences. The trick to Sonic, I've found in Mania, is to grasp that it works just like these standard platformer tropes, but fools you because it doesn't look like it works that way. It plays like an auto-scroller where the screen doesn't scroll because the point-of-no-return boundaries come at you in all directions, diagonals included, as you criss-cross over the rails.

It isn't quite my style, as far as first preferences go, but Mania finally convinced me that I can have fun with this design philosophy and find a certain exhilaration in getting lost in courses too twisted and tangled to ever map out in my head. There's something in its execution that clicks in a way that the original Sonic games never did, and I'm beginning to think I should return to the older games (particularly given the prolific recommendations that people who liked Mania should go back to 3+K) to examine what it's doing differently—versus what was always there, awaiting the right mindset to engage with it.

*

I do have a number of gripes with Mania, many of them offshoots of my general issues with Sonic. At times it is woefully unclear about hitboxes, collisions, deaths by squishing, and what you can or cannot touch in various forms/actions/power-ups—you have to learn a lot of enemy interactions by trial and error rather than pure observation of cues in their visual design or movement patterns. I still occasionally tuck into a roll from what I thought was a standing position when I intended to spin-dash. The undocumented ten-minute time limit is a failure of UI design that I would feel much better about if it counted down. And I honestly don't think much at all of Blue Sphere, although for some reason I keep diving back into it instead of just ignoring it at the checkpoint, so perhaps I don't dislike it as much as I think I do.

But for the first time, I'm finding that the game as a holistic package is riveting enough from moment to moment, zone to zone, that none of these grievances kill the overall experience. And a lot of credit has to go to the stage design, which is just tight and dense enough that if I ever come to a dead stop for whatever reason, the obstacles on the screen are worth playing with as a precision platformer, but there also exists an option to get back up to speed if I just want to zip on ahead. From my memory of Sonic 1, this was always what I thought was missing (especially as Sonic 1 lacks the spin dash, something I had totally forgotten): a sense of integration and contiguity between the fast game and the slow game, such that individual segments of the stage are interesting at both velocities, and you can make a transition from one to the other at will.

For the most part, here Sonic finally holds my interest as a platformer, and the question, "Do I speed down the freeway or do I take the turnout in the corner of my eye?" is an interesting decision that is within my power and control to make. When you stop or slow down, there is a platformer in front of you worth playing, not an oversized track you fell off and are trying to get back on.

*

A personal irony: it occurs to me belatedly that, as much as I've claimed that Sonic's design philosophy isn't really my design philosophy, its approach to one-off thematic gimmicks and branching pathways as an incentive to replay stages was actually the core of my approach to Super Mario Maker. And some of the criticisms that I received on my stages (for one: that if a player repeatedly fails to surmount a challenge, they may be psychologically driven not to seek alternatives, but to attempt the same route to prove they can surmount it) are not that far from my own reservations about Sonic.

*

Last note—I found the thread asking for an introduction to the fan service to be highly enlightening, and wish it hadn't been closed. I was certainly wondering about many of the same things coming out of Mania, and was similarly impressed at the strength of Mania's unified identity as a game, such that an untrained eye couldn't necessarily distinguish returning elements or characters from the newly introduced, as they all seemed to belong there side by side.
 
It's impossible for some people to realize that 'different to something I like a lot' isn't 'bad game design'.

Have you even played 8 and 16 bit games? Sonic is nearer toward the top in playability, entertainment, and timelessness [in this decrepit era of games]. That doesn't mean I'm saying it's the best game I've ever played, or that it's necessarily better than, say, Mario. What is it with you kids and everything either having to be one extreme or the other? It's one of the better shitty old games we played as kids.

Criminy, don't show these kids Toejam and Earl, or Moonwalker, or Golden Axe, or virtually any other Sega Genesis game. They won't know how to react without watching a react video.
 
After playing a hundred games on my Switch, I decided to give Sonic Mania another chance. So I paid for the Plus DLC and finally finished the last stage (got bored with it last year so the game was relegated to my backlog--both on PS4 and Switch). I haven't touched it for months so let's see how this goes...

Oh boy, now it finally clicked. Sonic Mania Plus is pure unadulterated fun from start to finish. I'm hooked. The game is now my absolute favorite in my growing Switch collection. My Number One. I give it a score of 99. If Whitehead adds HD Rumble support, it goes to 100.
 
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Thiagosc777

Member
I know this thread is old, but I don't know why there's so much "theorizing" about Sonic.

Back in the late 80s and early 90s it was the time of the 2D platformers. There were plenty of them, and each had a gimmick. For example, in James Pond you played as a spy fish that could stretch its body, in Alex Kidd you could punch objects, etc.

Sonic is a 2D platformer just like all other thousands of them. Its gimmick is that it can run fast. But ultimately all the gameplay revolves around precise jumping in order to reach areas and defeat enemies.

Most of the time in Sonic games you wouldn't even be able to go fast. There was an underwater Labyrinth in Sonic 1 for example, and levels with other types of hazards. It's just a 2D platformer, like all others.
 

Silvawuff

Member
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about this topic, OP. It's great to see you experience 2D Sonic for the second time and "get it." Sonic is an easy target for criticism given the rough few decades of games that strayed from what made the original titles fun. I think Sonic 1 is a horrible title to introduce yourself to Sonic with; it's almost a completely different game from the other 2D Sonics, but it was also an important stepping stone for everything to follow. If you enjoyed Mania, I think you should try Sonic 2, S3&K, and Knuckles' Chaotix (heavy emphasis on the partner-exploration aspect) if you can find a way to reliably play it.

Edit: Didn't realize I was responding to a necropost, but my thoughts about this are still the same in the relevance of Mania Plus' release.
 
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