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Coronavirus Global Pandemic |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check

Aug 28, 2019
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It would make a lot more sense to wear a face shield or similar if you are worried about yourself.
The fact that masks make people feel safer is probably why they do not even help slightly and could very well increase spread.

Only reason for masks would be if you are going out in public transport while having a cough going on (which I dont think is recommended anywhere right now).
Pretty much, wear like a motorcycle helmet everywhere lol. I don't think even the mask Nazis totally believe in it, they just love yelling at other people to obey the rules.
 
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Dr.Guru of Peru

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It would make a lot more sense to wear a face shield or similar if you are worried about yourself.
The fact that masks make people feel safer is probably why they do not even help slightly and could very well increase spread.

Only reason for masks would be if you are going out in public transport while having a cough going on (which I dont think is recommended anywhere right now).
I don't think this is true. The evidence is pretty clear that mask wearing is protective in the health care setting, the uncertainty is about mask wearing in the community setting.
I suspect the likely issues are:
1) lower compliance in the community setting
2) improper wearing by lay people (mask not covering entire face, no regard for proper donning/doffing, etc.) or lower quality masks in the community.
3) along the lines of what you said, break down in other preventative measures due to false confidence in the ability of a mask to prevent infection.
4) lack of mask use in the settings most likely to produce virus transmission (i.e. the home, restaurants, bars, etc.).

I think if properly worn, a good quality mask will offer protection on the individual level.
 
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Belgorim

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I don't think this is true. The evidence is pretty clear that mask wearing is protective in the health care setting, the uncertainty is about mask wearing in the community setting.
I suspect the likely issues are:
1) lower compliance in the community setting
2) improper wearing by lay people (mask not covering entire face, no regard for proper donning/doffing, etc.) or lower quality masks in the community.
3) along the lines of what you said, break down in other preventative measures due to false confidence in the ability of a mask to prevent infection.
4) lack of mask use in the settings most likely to produce virus transmission (i.e. the home, restaurants, bars, etc.).

I think if properly worn, a good quality mask will offer protection on the individual level.
Yeah, I am not talking about a health care setting.

And the other points you make is pretty much my stance as well, you are not going to get those things to work well in a population so I think the continual message of distancing and staying home when sick is better than trying the mask route as well.

I do not know what you don't think is true though, is it the comment about face shields? Why would a face shield not we better than a mask if you want to get protection against droplets from others? (of course you are free to use both if you want)
 
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diffusionx

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I like that gaf questions the mask in general public use, but at the same time the amount off missinformation is high. The reason masks "work" with covid is not because the masks stop the tiny viruses, it is because they stop a lot of the droplets that contain the virus.

They however evidently dont work anywhere in the world as an actual countermeasure in a general population.
This is the time when actual science is needed, and not IFLS reddit-tier "science."

Masks don't work. We know this. Studies done in the past show that they are not effective with regards to influenza, which has the same method of transmission. But we also know this empirically. You can look at many places and find cases continue to skyrocket even after mask mandates were put into place. And you can also look at Sweden which has not used masks widely and cases are falling even as they are exploding in places like Spain and France with mask mandates and heavy handed enforcement. This is, by the way, why Washington's shitpile model is total garbage, where they claim transmission and hundreds of thousands of lives would be saved if everyone wears masks. There is absolutely NO evidence that this is possibly true, and this shitty model has lead us astray over and over.

Now, droplets. Ok, masks stop droplets - so what? Cases are still going up, they say. So obviously the whole story isn't being told by muh droplets. We are missing something here, and the problem is, nobody is bothering to find it out, because the only thing anyone is talking about is how more people should wear masks. Even if someone can post the most beautiful air expulsion video on YouTube to prove how masks work in theory, the evidence is clear: they're not doing shit. There is no point to wearing these things if they do not work in practice, which they don't.

The way to deal with problems in reality is to deal with them as they are, not as you wish they were. This is why ideologues never actually solve any problems. Even if masks were super effective (they're not) if worn properly, if 95% of people aren't wearing them properly, they'e pointless.
 
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cryptoadam

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I dont think anyone has claimed that masks alone will stop the virus. They're part of a set of tools we can use to mitigate our risk from the virus. Eating healthy, exercising, keeping physical distance and washing your hands can all be used with mask wearing. You don't have to even wear a mask all the time (I certainly dont), but a lot of the people that disregard the rest of the tools also disregard the masks. Just look at this thread as an example: most of the people getting upset about masks don't just have an issue with masks, they don't even believe COVID19 is a concern. The discussion in this thread has become framed in such a ridiculous manner. Either you believe that COVID19 is a government conspiracy to institute a new world order, or you're a paranoid alamist who thinks we should all bunker in our basements until the end of time.
Nah i am going to disagree. The general temperature is wear a mask or you will kill grandma. Look at how protests are treated. Oh they were wearing masks so its ok. As if those stinky protesters were washing hands and social distancing.

Its become a thing where people think masks are a silver bullet and the only way to end the pandemic is if everyone masks up. Thats why even being alone outside ruffles peoples jimmies and turns them into mask Nazis.

And i think most people outside a few just think that COVID is a dangerous virus for the elderly and sick and a flu for the young and healthy. Which is the truth. Find a country where the deaths arent 75 to 80% over 65 and less than 90% with underlying conditions.

If masks only help 10% then the experts should say it. There just isnt a goal. Ok wear a mask and cases will drop by 25% in 2 weeks. Thats measuarble and shows that it does something.

Instead its wear a maks we wont tell you how much it will reduce cases and if cases increase with a mask mandate dont pay atrention that doesnt prove anything.

Imagine I told you invest in this company. Ok and how much will I make and when? Uhm i cant tell you but its going to be lots of money. And then you lose money but I keep telling you the investment is paying off dont worry anyminute now you will make money.
 
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WoJ

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Masks are a farce. If they truly worked we wouldn't see case counts continuing to rise like they are. The narrative on masks was how they stop transmission. Well, pretty much everyone in the US has been masked up for months now and case counts have been flat. Here in Ohio they required masks in early July and our daily case count has been the same for months. Those masks must be doing a lot. At this point it's about getting federal money for leaving things in "a state of emergency". What that state of emergency is I have no idea.

To me the biggest farce is restaurants. I have to wear a mask to walk through a restaurant for 20 seconds. But then take it off as soon as I sit down. Yeah that's really going to work. I can hack and cough at my table all I want with no mask, but those twenty seconds I walk through the restaurant make all the difference.

It's all a political game at this point.
 
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Monsterkillah

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Masks are a farce. If they truly worked we wouldn't see case counts continuing to rise like they are. The narrative on masks was how they stop transmission. Well, pretty much everyone in the US has been masked up for months now and case counts have been flat. Here in Ohio they required masks in early July and our daily case count has been the same for months. Those masks must be doing a lot. At this point it's about getting federal money for leaving things in "a state of emergency". What that state of emergency is I have no idea.

To me the biggest farce is restaurants. I have to wear a mask to walk through a restaurant for 20 seconds. But then take it off as soon as I sit down. Yeah that's really going to work. I can hack and cough at my table all I want with no mask, but those twenty seconds I walk through the restaurant make all the difference.

It's all a political game at this point.
After a woman with the coronavirus visited a Starbucks cafe north of Seoul, more than two dozen patrons tested positive days later.

Only 4 person are saved

The Starbuck employee

The four of them are wearing mask

 
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CloudNull

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Those masks must be doing a lot. At this point it's about getting federal money for leaving things in "a state of emergency". What that state of emergency is I have no idea.
In the HEREOS act passed there is a part called the ACCESS act(SEC. 160001 ). More people need to be aware of this. It enables the states to force mail in voting if the state is in a state of Emergency. This is the reason I think that most states are trying their hardest to stay in a State of Emergency.

The evidence shows the virus is dying out and the powers that be are trying there hardest to keep people scared until the election.
 
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Zefah

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After a woman with the coronavirus visited a Starbucks cafe north of Seoul, more than two dozen patrons tested positive days later.

Only 4 person are saved

The Starbuck employee

The four of them are wearing mask

Two questions that the article does not answer:

1) Did the employees go to the second floor that had the air conditioning unit? This seems like an extremely important factor.
2) Did seriously *none* of the patrons wear masks?

Either way, it seems wildly irresponsible to claim that wearing a mask protects you from getting the virus.
 
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Monsterkillah

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Two questions that the article does not answer:

1) Did the employees go to the second floor that had the air conditioning unit? This seems like an extremely important factor.
2) Did seriously *none* of the patrons wear masks?

Either way, it seems wildly irresponsible to claim that wearing a mask protects you from getting the virus.
I never said wearing mask will give you 100% guaranteed protection against airborne virus

It just give you better chance/ odds of not inhaling it

Just like wearing kevlar/body armor will not give you 100% immunity against bullet

But in a sense it does give you a better rate of survival in a combat
 
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cryptoadam

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Feb 21, 2018
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Two questions that the article does not answer:

1) Did the employees go to the second floor that had the air conditioning unit? This seems like an extremely important factor.
2) Did seriously *none* of the patrons wear masks?

Either way, it seems wildly irresponsible to claim that wearing a mask protects you from getting the virus.
Yes a mask does not protect you. Even the biggest Mask Nazi admits that the mask is to stop YOU from coughing/breathing out droplets. Everyone says that these masks are not protective, even the F'n box says its doesn't protect against the virus.

I could at least buy that wearing a mask prevents you from coughing out high viral loads and will allow any particles to fall to the ground faster and not linger in the air. But trying to sell that some 5 cent china mask or neck gaiter protects from a tiny .1 micron virus, while hospital workers are wearing giant hazmit suites, ya cmon man.

Oddly enough our cases are going up where I live, highest in months. Mask mandate since July 18th. How is it possible?
 

Zefah

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I never said wearing mask will give you 100% guranteed protection against airborne virus

It just give you better chance/ odds of not inhaling it

Just like wearing kevlar/body armor will not give you 100% immunity against bullet

But in a sense it does give you a better rate of survival in a combat
It's not true, though, and your analogy is shit. The bullet is hitting the vest/body armor, but the air you breath is not being filtered through the mask unless you have a perfect seal. The point of the masks is that it blocks a large portion of droplets and slows their velocity when being expelled from your mouth/nose.
 
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Monsterkillah

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Yes a mask does not protect you. Even the biggest Mask Nazi admits that the mask is to stop YOU from coughing/breathing out droplets. Everyone says that these masks are not protective, even the F'n box says its doesn't protect against the virus.

I could at least buy that wearing a mask prevents you from coughing out high viral loads and will allow any particles to fall to the ground faster and not linger in the air. But trying to sell that some 5 cent china mask or neck gaiter protects from a tiny .1 micron virus, while hospital workers are wearing giant hazmit suites, ya cmon man.

Oddly enough our cases are going up where I live, highest in months. Mask mandate since July 18th. How is it possible?




 
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Zefah

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The difference between minimum and maximum exposure in that image is minimal, though, and the mask only has an advantage when it comes to blocking forward-propelled droplets. I'm not seeing the logic in how an unsealed mask would prevent you from breathing in particles that are being circulated by an air conditioning system.
 
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Monsterkillah

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The difference between minimum and maximum exposure in that image is minimal, though, and the mask only has an advantage when it comes to blocking forward-propelled droplets. I'm not seeing the logic in how an unsealed mask would prevent you from breathing in particles that are being circulated by an air conditioning system.
So..your solution to this ? Is by not wearing mask at all? Is that what youre trying to say?
 
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#Phonepunk#

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my mom has had some kind of virus over the past week, from the sound of things it has gotten worse and worse, and she has been tested twice for COVID, and both times it came back negative. now they think she has pneumonia so she is heading into the ER. my sister in law is an EMT so they are taking a look. it's scary af.

so im going to kind of stay off the internet until i know more, too much cynicism and willful ignorance and casual death wishes thrown around. the truth is that yes the flu and pneumonia are fucking dangerous as well, so someone can say "COVID is like a flu" and it still be taken seriously. please don't divide people into a pro-mask/denier categories. that kind of divisive talk is the worst, and exactly what we don't need right now.

my mom has quarantined for months and months, not leaving the house at all. and yes she wears masks, in fact, she ran a group where they made and donated thousands of cloth masks to hospitals. yet she still got sick, and not even from COVID. hopefully the hospital won't be slammed and they can give her the necessary care.
 

Zefah

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So..your solution to this ? Is by not wearing mask at all? Is that what youre trying to say?
A solution to what?

I'm just calling out your attempt to elevate The Holy Mask into some kind of magical object with innate protective properties. It's starting to turn into superstition.
 
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cryptoadam

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Like I said,my point is that you wearing the mask in theory stops from exhaling it.

Everyone else agrees wearing a mask doesn't stop you from getting the virus, wear googles and gloves. Even NIH recognizes this.

Before all this mask misinformation was being spread, the WHO, and all other health experts said the same thing, masks don't protect you, but if you are sick you should wear one to prevent from exhaling the virus. Exactly what your graphs above are showing. Even the box on the masks say the dont PROTECT you from the virus.

The point of the mask is to stop you from giving it to other people. If you aren't sick with the virus then there is really no point in wearing the mask.

Riddle me this if some gaiter mask or 5 cent china store mask is so great why do we see doctors kitted up in those suites or wearing googles and n99s/fitted masks? My friend works at a hospital and she wears tight sealing mask, googles, gloves, scrubs etc... Why do doctors change their gear every time they go see a new patient or enter a new room discarding their masks etc...?
 

Monsterkillah

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Like I said,my point is that you wearing the mask in theory stops from exhaling it.

Everyone else agrees wearing a mask doesn't stop you from getting the virus, wear googles and gloves. Even NIH recognizes this.

Before all this mask misinformation was being spread, the WHO, and all other health experts said the same thing, masks don't protect you, but if you are sick you should wear one to prevent from exhaling the virus. Exactly what your graphs above are showing. Even the box on the masks say the dont PROTECT you from the virus.

The point of the mask is to stop you from giving it to other people. If you aren't sick with the virus then there is really no point in wearing the mask.

Riddle me this if some gaiter mask or 5 cent china store mask is so great why do we see doctors kitted up in those suites or wearing googles and n99s/fitted masks? My friend works at a hospital and she wears tight sealing mask, googles, gloves, scrubs etc... Why do doctors change their gear every time they go see a new patient or enter a new room discarding their masks etc...?
That is simply not true

The mask DOES give protection for both ways

I dont understand why are you keep ignoring this

Read the statement from AARC ( American Association for Respiratory Care)
 
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Dr.Guru of Peru

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Nah i am going to disagree. The general temperature is wear a mask or you will kill grandma. Look at how protests are treated. Oh they were wearing masks so its ok. As if those stinky protesters were washing hands and social distancing.

Its become a thing where people think masks are a silver bullet and the only way to end the pandemic is if everyone masks up. Thats why even being alone outside ruffles peoples jimmies and turns them into mask Nazis.

And i think most people outside a few just think that COVID is a dangerous virus for the elderly and sick and a flu for the young and healthy. Which is the truth. Find a country where the deaths arent 75 to 80% over 65 and less than 90% with underlying conditions.

If masks only help 10% then the experts should say it. There just isnt a goal. Ok wear a mask and cases will drop by 25% in 2 weeks. Thats measuarble and shows that it does something.

Instead its wear a maks we wont tell you how much it will reduce cases and if cases increase with a mask mandate dont pay atrention that doesnt prove anything.

Imagine I told you invest in this company. Ok and how much will I make and when? Uhm i cant tell you but its going to be lots of money. And then you lose money but I keep telling you the investment is paying off dont worry anyminute now you will make money.
I know you live in Canada, so I’m not sure how you can say this. The uptake of masks here has been pretty lukewarm and a lot of places haven’t made them mandatory. Here in BC they’re only required on public transit, where social distancing is not possible (people need to get to work somehow) and the message from public health has been clear; Masks are not a panacea but part of a larger toolkit.

As far as your comment about numbers, that’s an unreasonable ask. We don’t know how effective masks will be in the public setting because there are far too many variables beyond the efficacy of the masks themselves. See post 30852 that I made. Your analogy itself seems a bit naive because no one can ever guarantee a return on an investment like that. If you’re being guaranteed a return, you’re probably being scammed.
 
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Monsterkillah

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A solution to what?

I'm just calling out your attempt to elevate The Holy Mask into some kind of magical object with innate protective properties. It's starting to turn into superstition.
It seems like youre going to the extreme direction here

i never implied wearing mask as holy object with innate protective as you described

It is a safety standard procedures by WHO and numerous health organization now as covid prevention
 
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Dr.Guru of Peru

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Yes a mask does not protect you. Even the biggest Mask Nazi admits that the mask is to stop YOU from coughing/breathing out droplets. Everyone says that these masks are not protective, even the F'n box says its doesn't protect against the virus.

I could at least buy that wearing a mask prevents you from coughing out high viral loads and will allow any particles to fall to the ground faster and not linger in the air. But trying to sell that some 5 cent china mask or neck gaiter protects from a tiny .1 micron virus, while hospital workers are wearing giant hazmit suites, ya cmon man.

Oddly enough our cases are going up where I live, highest in months. Mask mandate since July 18th. How is it possible?
Neck gaiters and other loosely worn and weaved fabrics don’t offer any protection. We know this.

But whether a mask protects you isn’t always a binary yes or no answer. A tightly worn and weaved mask reduces your risk of infection, with medical grade masks offering the greatest protection. It’s a gradient of risk. FYI, there actually isn’t a lot of evidence that N95s offer greater protection than surgical masks for most respiratory viruses. Also, the rules have changed since COVID and most health care providers are not Donning/doffing after every patient encounter.
 
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cryptoadam

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That is simply not true

The mask DOES give protection for both ways

I dont understand why are you keep ignoring this

Read the statement from AARC ( American Association for Respiratory Care)

A mask alone in this setting will reduce risk only slightly, however, since it does not provide protection from droplets that may enter the eyes or from fomites on the patient or in the environment that providers may pick up on their hands and carry to their mucous membranes
What is clear, however, is that universal masking alone is not a panacea. A mask will not protect providers caring for a patient with active Covid-19 if it’s not accompanied by meticulous hand hygiene, eye protection, gloves, and a gown. A mask alone will not prevent health care workers with early Covid-19 from contaminating their hands and spreading the virus to patients and colleagues. Focusing on universal masking alone may, paradoxically, lead to more transmission of Covid-19 if it diverts attention from implementing more fundamental infection-control measures.
The extent of marginal benefit of universal masking over and above these foundational measures is debatable. It depends on the prevalence of health care workers with asymptomatic and minimally symptomatic infections as well as the relative contribution of this population to the spread of infection.
There may be additional benefits to broad masking policies that extend beyond their technical contribution to reducing pathogen transmission. Masks are visible reminders of an otherwise invisible yet widely prevalent pathogen and may remind people of the importance of social distancing and other infection-control measures.
It is also clear that masks serve symbolic roles. Masks are not only tools, they are also talismans that may help increase health care workers’ perceived sense of safety, well-being, and trust in their hospitals. Although such reactions may not be strictly logical, we are all subject to fear and anxiety, especially during times of crisis.
Expanded masking protocols’ greatest contribution may be to reduce the transmission of anxiety, over and above whatever role they may play in reducing transmission of Covid-19.

Wearing a medical mask is one of the prevention measures to limit spread of certain respiratory diseases, including 2019- nCoV, in affected areas. However, the use of a mask alone is insufficient to provide the adequate level of protection and other equally relevant measures should be adopted. If masks are to be used, this measure must be combined with hand hygiene and other IPC measures to prevent the human-tohuman transmission of 2019-nCov. WHO has developed guidance for home careb and health care settingsc on infection prevention and control (IPC) strategies for use when infection with 2019-nCoV is suspected. Wearing medical masks when not indicated may cause unnecessary cost, procurement burden and create a false sense of security that can lead to neglecting other essential measures such as hand hygiene practices. Furthermore, using a mask incorrectly may hamper its effectiveness to reduce the risk of transmission.
Individuals without respiratory symptoms should:
- avoid agglomerations and frequency of closed crowded spaces; - maintain distance of at least 1 meter from any individual with 2019-nCoV respiratory symptoms (e.g., coughing, sneezing);
- perform hand hygiene frequently, using alcohol-based hand rub if hands are not visibly soiled or soap and water when hands are visibly soiled; - if coughing or sneezing cover nose and mouth with flexed elbow or paper tissue, dispose of tissue immediately after use and perform hand hygiene; - refrain from touching mouth and nose;
- a medical mask is not required, as no evidence is available on its usefulness to protect non-sick persons. However, masks might be worn in some countries according to local cultural habits. If masks are used, best practices should be followed on how to wear, remove, and dispose of them and on hand hygiene action after removal (see below advice regarding appropriate mask management).

Individuals with respiratory symptoms should:
- wear a medical mask and seek medical care if experiencing fever, cough and difficulty breathing, as soon as possible or in accordance with to local protocols;
- follow the below advice regarding appropriate mask management.
Look you are partly correct, a mask along with hygiene, googles, social distancing, and gloves will protect you. But some 5 cent china mask or neck gaiter isn't protecting you.

You didn't answer the question. Why do we see doctors in COVID wards wearing hazmit suits, or full on googles/gloves etc ? If some China mask or scarf was so protective then why don't these doctros just grab a shirt and put it over their mouths while dealing with COVID patients? Why spend billions on PPE if all they needed was some 5 cent china mask or piece of cloth? Why do health care professionals carefully discard their masks and change them multiple times a day meanwhile the general public uses the same mask over and over again taking it on and off multiple times a day?

Masks can prevent you from expelling the virus. So if you are sick wear a mask, as the WHO and NEJM suggested.

The problem is that the world has been convinced that every single person is infected, even though there are 7 billion people in the world and only 30 million confirmed infections.
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

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Yeah, I am not talking about a health care setting.

And the other points you make is pretty much my stance as well, you are not going to get those things to work well in a population so I think the continual message of distancing and staying home when sick is better than trying the mask route as well.

I do not know what you don't think is true though, is it the comment about face shields? Why would a face shield not we better than a mask if you want to get protection against droplets from others? (of course you are free to use both if you want)
What i mean is that if you’re otherwise appropriately distancing, mask use can be protective on the individual level. Whether something is ineffective at a population level doesn’t mean it can’t be protective on an individual level, since population level effects have all sort of confounders.

A visor would need to be sealed for it to be effective, and most that I’ve seen open up just below the mouth level. They offer the greatest protection for your eyes, but I honestly have not seen a single Covid patient with conjunctivitis. It exists, but is quite rare so I’m not convinced that eye protection is a big issue.
 

Zefah

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It seems like youre going to the extreme direction here

i never implied wearing mask as holy object with innate protective as you described

It is a safety standard procedures by WHO and numerous health organization now as covid prevention
You posted an article that was clearly attempting to give the impression that 4 Starbucks workers alone were protected from catching the virus *because* they wore masks. That is what I was responding to.

And please do not get me started on the WHO.

The mask DOES give protection for both ways
And there you go again. Through what mechanism does wearing a thin loose-fitting mask prevent you from inhaling tiny particles in the air?
 
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WoJ

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It seems like youre going to the extreme direction here

i never implied wearing mask as holy object with innate protective as you described

It is a safety standard procedures by WHO and numerous health organization now as covid prevention
You're claiming, or at least appear to be trying to claim, that wearing a mask prevents the wearer from wearing the virus. That has never been true unless it's an N95 properly fitted or N99. Even those diagrams you showed show absolutely nothing about how mask wearing prevents the user from catching the virus. As has been said multiple times in this thread even Lord Fauci himself has said masks don't prevent you from getting it. The WHO's stance has always been that masks don't prevent you from getting it.

I was reluctantly on board with masks at first in hopes it would help to slow the spread. It clearly hasn't. Masks have been mandated everywhere here for months yet cases keep going up or remain flat. Not to mention multiple studies that show masks don't work.

It's fear porn at this point. I've seen and heard so many people get freaked out in outdoor settings where social distancing is not a problem and they will just grab their mask and tout them as something that will keep them safe. My co-worker, who is a pretty smart guy, had COVID, recovered with zero problems told a story this week about going to the grocery store and how he was still wearing a mask. Which is fine. I get that. But quite frankly, he didn't need to because he's already had the virus and he's recovered. Anyways, he told a story about how someone in the store with him wasn't wearing a mask and how freaked out he was this person was so close to him. It was clear he was afraid this person was going to transmit the virus to him. Which makes zero sense - he already had it as I said, and his mask wasn't going to prevent him from catching anything. Yet he was telling us how freaked out he was by someone being so close to him.

This type of behavior makes zero sense. Especially from someone who had the virus.

Wear masks all you want. You can show me all the diagrams you want. I've read enough articles, scientific journals, and looked at the data enough to draw my own conclusions. We should be getting back to normal life. Instead we are caught in this cycle of fear.

As others have said, this wouldn't be happening without social media. Social media is the real plague that needs to be wiped out.
 

cryptoadam

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Neck gaiters and other loosely worn and weaved fabrics don’t offer any protection. We know this.

But whether a mask protects you isn’t always a binary yes or no answer. A tightly worn and weaved mask reduces your risk of infection, with medical grade masks offering the greatest protection. It’s a gradient of risk. FYI, there actually isn’t a lot of evidence that N95s offer greater protection than surgical masks for most respiratory viruses. Also, the rules have changed since COVID and most health care providers are not Donning/doffing after every patient encounter.
I can agree that if you kit up, goggles, gloves, hazmit suit then yes you will be protected. Thats why health care workers are donned head to toe in protective equipment.

the debate here is that those 5 cent china masks or some T-shirt you threw across your face somehow protects YOU from these tiny virus particles that can just go into your eyes.

Personally I think its a very dangerous message. Saying it stops you from spitting out virus is fine, but if you tell people wear a mask and you won't get corona your just gonna get what everyone warned about, people having a sense of false confidence. This was Fauci's worry and the WHO's worry before masks became the silver bullet.

Would you rather that the infected person get a mask, or the non infected people? Lets say I had the virus and we had 1 mask who should wear it me or you if I was COVID positive?

And as you know in Canada we have been all about the masks since July yet the case volume is increasing. So are we all just not following the mandates or what? I can tell you that every time I go somewhere now I see people wearing masks, yet in Quebec we have our highest case numbers in months. BC is getting high numbers too. I don't live there but I have to guess they are following the masking as well BC people are pretty good people.
 
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Joe T.

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Why are you calling me covidiots, why dont you look at yourself in the mirror and see it for yourself, ha !

Youre the covidiots one for trying to insinuate this disease is harmless :messenger_grinning_squinting:
Now follow that logic, 'coronavirus is not harmless.' That's an extremely low bar to set for the extreme measures the world has undertaken to "protect" the public health.

"We need to flatten the curve." "We're following the science." "It's just a mask." We've been lied to by the media. We've been lied to by "the experts." We've been lied to by many of our leaders. At what point do you say enough is enough? They lost the high ground, they lost the benefit of the doubt. The data and the science isn't on their side no matter how many times they repeat it.

This pandemic doesn't concern me because of its health risk, it concerns me because it's taking the propaganda tactics successfully used to convince people the US president conspired with Russia to win his election and using them for a virus that has touched every corner of the world. Even after thorough investigations by partisan investigators found him innocent the world went on believing he was guilty because the message had been drilled over their heads for years. We're seeing the same happen here, a certain segment of the population refuses to change their view of the pandemic even as the facts keep rolling in and clarifying the picture before us.

There are millions of "influencers" operating on social media, no doubt many of them have been working hard on this pandemic. Trying to work against their attempts to flood the zone is a full time job, especially given that the mainstream media is pushing the same messaging and completely uninterested in the truth - again, same as they were with Russian collusion. This isn't conspiracy theory, it's just the cold, hard truth.
 

cryptoadam

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Feb 21, 2018
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I know you live in Canada, so I’m not sure how you can say this. The uptake of masks here has been pretty lukewarm and a lot of places haven’t made them mandatory. Here in BC they’re only required on public transit, where social distancing is not possible (people need to get to work somehow) and the message from public health has been clear; Masks are not a panacea but part of a larger toolkit.

As far as your comment about numbers, that’s an unreasonable ask. We don’t know how effective masks will be in the public setting because there are far too many variables beyond the efficacy of the masks themselves. See post 30852 that I made. Your analogy itself seems a bit naive because no one can ever guarantee a return on an investment like that. If you’re being guaranteed a return, you’re probably being scammed.
can't speak for BC but in Quebec since July 18th any where I go I see people with masks on (indoors). I will take your word on BC since I don't live there but I figured they would be pretty good with following orders since they did a good job early on.

Masks are effective if you are sick, that is what everyone agreed on before June. All of a sudden this changed that healthy people should wear masks for some reason.

Pointing out we don't know how effective masks are in public settings is kinda the point. Basically its an admittance that there is no idea that wearing masks does anything, but lets make it the law and fine people and even arrest them for not wearing it. Saying we dont know how effective something is, but then turn around and force mask mandates and have the media propagate that the solution is masking is irresponsible.
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
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I can agree that if you kit up, goggles, gloves, hazmit suit then yes you will be protected. Thats why health care workers are donned head to toe in protective equipment.

the debate here is that those 5 cent china masks or some T-shirt you threw across your face somehow protects YOU from these tiny virus particles that can just go into your eyes.

Personally I think its a very dangerous message. Saying it stops you from spitting out virus is fine, but if you tell people wear a mask and you won't get corona your just gonna get what everyone warned about, people having a sense of false confidence. This was Fauci's worry and the WHO's worry before masks became the silver bullet.

Would you rather that the infected person get a mask, or the non infected people? Lets say I had the virus and we had 1 mask who should wear it me or you if I was COVID positive?

And as you know in Canada we have been all about the masks since July yet the case volume is increasing. So are we all just not following the mandates or what? I can tell you that every time I go somewhere now I see people wearing masks, yet in Quebec we have our highest case numbers in months. BC is getting high numbers too. I don't live there but I have to guess they are following the masking as well BC people are pretty good people.
None of us are donning up fully unless we’re intubating or doing some sort of other aerosol generating procedure. I’ve actually even forgotten to wear my eye protection a few times and I’ve been okay. Anecdotal of course, but I really don’t think conjunctival (eye) entry is a major source of infection otherwise we would be seeing a lot more cases of conjunctivitis. You could get it that way, but the major modes of entry seem to be through the respiratory tract.

Again, whether something is protective is not binary. You will definitely be more protected if you wear a biohazmat suit, but they are expensive, tedious to put on, and uncomfortable. The incremental increase in protection you get is probably not worth the hassle.

I haven’t seen very many people masking in BC, and as I said it is not mandatory here. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Canada has been “all about the masking”. Here’s Ontario’s policy on masks for reference:

Certainly doesn’t seem like they’re all about the masks.

BC’s early success was pure luck, owing to the timing of our lockdown (before March break as opposed to after in Quebec) and our isolated geography. There is nothing unique about the population here that makes us more or less susceptible to Covid19.
 
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diffusionx

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I can agree that if you kit up, goggles, gloves, hazmit suit then yes you will be protected. Thats why health care workers are donned head to toe in protective equipment.

the debate here is that those 5 cent china masks or some T-shirt you threw across your face somehow protects YOU from these tiny virus particles that can just go into your eyes.

Personally I think its a very dangerous message. Saying it stops you from spitting out virus is fine, but if you tell people wear a mask and you won't get corona your just gonna get what everyone warned about, people having a sense of false confidence. This was Fauci's worry and the WHO's worry before masks became the silver bullet.

Would you rather that the infected person get a mask, or the non infected people? Lets say I had the virus and we had 1 mask who should wear it me or you if I was COVID positive?

And as you know in Canada we have been all about the masks since July yet the case volume is increasing. So are we all just not following the mandates or what? I can tell you that every time I go somewhere now I see people wearing masks, yet in Quebec we have our highest case numbers in months. BC is getting high numbers too. I don't live there but I have to guess they are following the masking as well BC people are pretty good people.
That’s the point. Look we have those stupid pictures and YouTube videos. But we also have real data on what happens in cities, states, and countries. And guess what, masks are not doing anything to stem the tide of the virus. The virus does what the virus does, it spreads when it has an opportunity to, and burns out when 20-30% of the population has been infected. The masks aren’t changing that dynamic at all.

Again, Spain did everything the Fauci/Gates approved way and have an explosion in cases right now. Lockdowns, masks, all of it. They’re out there beating on people who aren’t wearing masks. Doesn’t matter. Sweden earned the enmity of the entire globalist establishment with their approach. Even now no masks, no lockdowns, cases far less than France or Spain. Anyone droning on about muh droplets and muh aerosols and muh masks needs to think this through.

Edit: this is what I mean. If masks and mask orders worked, the graphs would be totally the opposite.

 
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DeepBreath87

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Jun 15, 2019
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None of us are donning up fully unless we’re intubating or doing some sort of other aerosol generating procedure. I’ve actually even forgotten to wear my eye protection a few times and I’ve been okay. Anecdotal of course, but I really don’t think conjunctival (eye) entry is a major source of infection otherwise we would be seeing a lot more cases of conjunctivitis. You could get it that way, but the major modes of entry seem to be through the respiratory tract.

Again, whether something is protective is not binary. You will definitely be more protected if you wear a biohazmat suit, but they are expensive, tedious to put on, and uncomfortable. The incremental increase in protection you get is probably not worth the hassle.

I haven’t seen very many people masking in BC, and as I said it is not mandatory here. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Canada has been “all about the masking”. Here’s Ontario’s policy on masks for reference:

Certainly doesn’t seem like they’re all about the masks.

BC’s early success was pure luck, owing to the timing of our lockdown (before March break as opposed to after in Quebec) and our isolated geography. There is nothing unique about the population here that makes us more or less susceptible to Covid19.
We don fully PPE to care for COVID positive patients at all times. Because we had outbreaks among staff when we didn’t. Masks alone did not prevent transmission in my hospital.
 
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WoJ

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Mar 23, 2019
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That’s the point. Look we have those stupid pictures and YouTube videos. But we also have real data on what happens in cities, states, and countries. And guess what, masks are not doing anything to stem the tide of the virus. The virus does what the virus does, it spreads when it has an opportunity to, and burns out when 20-30% of the population has been infected. The masks aren’t changing that dynamic at all.

Again, Spain did everything the Fauci/Gates approved way and have an explosion in cases right now. Lockdowns, masks, all of it. They’re out there beating on people who aren’t wearing masks. Doesn’t matter. Sweden earned the enmity of the entire globalist establishment with their approach. Even now no masks, no lockdowns, cases far less than France or Spain. Anyone droning on about muh droplets and muh aerosols and muh masks needs to think this through.

Edit: this is what I mean. If masks and mask orders worked, the graphs would be totally the opposite.

This is really my point. The narrative where I live was that "if everyone wears a mask in an indoor setting then it will reduce the spread by between 70 to 90%". That's what the "science" was saying. At the time I was skeptical, but played along because I really had no choice since all businesses basically require it now. But I've paid close attention to the numbers. Cases, deaths, and hospitalizations have all floated between the same range since before the mask mandates went into effect. In my county, which is one of the most left leaning counties in the state, cases are where they were like a week after mandates went in. Deaths are flat to down. You can't go anywhere in an indoor setting in Franklin county without getting mask shamed or kicked out. But yet I'm supposed to believe that they help reduce spread 70 to 90%? Get the hell out of here. The data doesn't support it.
 

Joe T.

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I haven’t seen very many people masking in BC, and as I said it is not mandatory here. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Canada has been “all about the masking”. Here’s Ontario’s policy on masks for reference:

Certainly doesn’t seem like they’re all about the masks.

BC’s early success was pure luck, owing to the timing of our lockdown (before March break as opposed to after in Quebec) and our isolated geography. There is nothing unique about the population here that makes us more or less susceptible to Covid19.
In the videos I've seen of indoor areas from B.C. it seems the vast majority are wearing them. One example from last month on Youtube showing a couple of shopping malls (gotta skip around past the outdoor segments).

Doctors there have asked for court injunctions (one story from CBC) or stepped up publicly since July (curious timing) to say the province should mandate masks, one such story about 82 of them doing that here - "The group is also calling on other provinces to mandate the use of face masks to combat the spread of COVID-19." I'd love to interrogate a few of them.
 

WoJ

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Mar 23, 2019
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Here are the graphs if hospital capacity in my state.


Maybe 5% of ICU beds are tied to COVID? Median Age is 64. At one point I dug deeper and I think average age was over 70 or 75. And I want to reiterate - cases have ranged between like 650 per day to 1150 per day for months. Looking at our 21 day average data it's all fluctuating in the same range. Same with deaths. And hospitalizations. Mask Nazi's will tell me how if it wasn't for masks those numbers would be higher. We've been testing 20 to 25k people a day with a 5ish% positive rate since June. If masks were so effective that positive rate would be dropping. It isn't. The data just doesn't align with what we're being told to do.

Tell me again how scared I should be and how masks saved us all from overwhelming the hospital system. These executive orders were put into place indefinitely too. It's all such a farce. Our state legislature is trying to impeach our governor. It won't happen but he needs to go. The only thing that is going to get us out of COVID is when these clowns come up for reelection the pressure is on to give people their lives back. And when the federal money dries up and they need tax revenues.

But tell me again, how the science tells me the above data is wrong and masks saved us.
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
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In the videos I've seen of indoor areas from B.C. it seems the vast majority are wearing them. One example from last month on Youtube showing a couple of shopping malls (gotta skip around past the outdoor segments).

Doctors there have asked for court injunctions (one story from CBC) or stepped up publicly since July (curious timing) to say the province should mandate masks, one such story about 82 of them doing that here - "The group is also calling on other provinces to mandate the use of face masks to combat the spread of COVID-19." I'd love to interrogate a few of them.
Thats Richmond, which is heavily Chinese. The number of people wearing masks in other cities is much lower. Most are not masked in Metrotown for example. And again, the point is that it hasn’t been recommended and that the language from public health remains that masking is an adjunct, not a “silver bullet” as some here are putting it.
 

cryptoadam

... and he cannot lie
Feb 21, 2018
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That’s the point. Look we have those stupid pictures and YouTube videos. But we also have real data on what happens in cities, states, and countries. And guess what, masks are not doing anything to stem the tide of the virus. The virus does what the virus does, it spreads when it has an opportunity to, and burns out when 20-30% of the population has been infected. The masks aren’t changing that dynamic at all.

Again, Spain did everything the Fauci/Gates approved way and have an explosion in cases right now. Lockdowns, masks, all of it. They’re out there beating on people who aren’t wearing masks. Doesn’t matter. Sweden earned the enmity of the entire globalist establishment with their approach. Even now no masks, no lockdowns, cases far less than France or Spain. Anyone droning on about muh droplets and muh aerosols and muh masks needs to think this through.

Edit: this is what I mean. If masks and mask orders worked, the graphs would be totally the opposite.

One country that is ignored is Belarus.

800 or so deaths.

No masks,no Lockdown, no social distancing. A few months back they had a 2 million person festival. The past month they have had protests with 10's if not 100's of thousands of people, not wearing masks no SDing.

The President there has been 100% against the COVID narrative and even turned down 100's of millions of dollars because he was asked to impose strict measures.

I don't really want to debate if he is a dictator or if he actually won the election.

But they barely did anything, a lot less the Sweden yet they aren't a graveyard.
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
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We don fully PPE to care for COVID positive patients at all times. Because we had outbreaks among staff when we didn’t. Masks alone did not prevent transmission in my hospital.
Well I guess it depends on your definition of full PPE. We’re required to wear eye shields and masks at all times, and the nursing staff caring for COVID-19 patients are required to wear hair coverings and shoe coverings. But we don’t have people walking around with PAPRs and full hazmat suits.
 

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
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One country that is ignored is Belarus.

800 or so deaths.

No masks,no Lockdown, no social distancing. A few months back they had a 2 million person festival. The past month they have had protests with 10's if not 100's of thousands of people, not wearing masks no SDing.

The President there has been 100% against the COVID narrative and even turned down 100's of millions of dollars because he was asked to impose strict measures.

I don't really want to debate if he is a dictator or if he actually won the election.

But they barely did anything, a lot less the Sweden yet they aren't a graveyard.
If you don’t trust the numbers from one dictatorship, why would you trust the numbers from another?
 

Zefah

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Jan 7, 2007
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Anyone droning on about muh droplets and muh aerosols and muh masks needs to think this through.
They won't. They will continue to post approved talking points, articles, and info-graphics and smugly proclaim their virtue and superiority for "following the science."
 
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ipukespiders

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Oct 9, 2006
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I'll say one thing about masks, hand washing, social distancing and sanitizing. I don't know anyone that has gotten a cold or flu since March. So that's a bonus.
 
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Leyasu

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Apr 25, 2014
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That’s the point. Look we have those stupid pictures and YouTube videos. But we also have real data on what happens in cities, states, and countries. And guess what, masks are not doing anything to stem the tide of the virus. The virus does what the virus does, it spreads when it has an opportunity to, and burns out when 20-30% of the population has been infected. The masks aren’t changing that dynamic at all.

Again, Spain did everything the Fauci/Gates approved way and have an explosion in cases right now. Lockdowns, masks, all of it. They’re out there beating on people who aren’t wearing masks. Doesn’t matter. Sweden earned the enmity of the entire globalist establishment with their approach. Even now no masks, no lockdowns, cases far less than France or Spain. Anyone droning on about muh droplets and muh aerosols and muh masks needs to think this through.

Edit: this is what I mean. If masks and mask orders worked, the graphs would be totally the opposite.

I live in France.

Schools were shut down in march, but were reopened in June. Masks WERE not mandated until the end of July when the uptick started. In fact, mask wearing was discouraged by the government during the early days of the outbreak because there wasn't enough for health care workers (they are now trying to convince people that their mask messaging at the beginning had nothing to do with the supply problems). You could not buy them anywhere until mid may once there was enough to go round and the government gave the green light. People trying to buy them abroad had their parcels intercepted and confiscated by customs officials too.

The problem in France has been the messaging, government inaction and behaviour after the lockdowns ended. The government encouraged everything going back to normal a.s.a.p, opened everything and the borders, allowed festivals and mass gatherings and left the door wide open for a second wave. Which the population helped to achieve. All this was done against the backdrop of poor testing and contact tracing left to already overworked GPs (local doctors for people not familiar with the British term) because the government didn't want to spend any money on it. Things are starting to spiral out of control, and once the cold weather sets in and everyone is locked up in the workplace or classrooms, France is gonna suffer.

The population density of Sweden and France are not comparable. Don't use that to prove anything. France has a population density 5x that of Swedens and a bit less than 5x more cases for 6.5x more inhabitants.

All that graphic for France illustrates is the fact that not taking things seriously and the government telling everyone to go back to normal (omitted from that by the way) is why second waves happen.
 
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Leyasu

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They won't. They will continue to post approved talking points, articles, and info-graphics and smugly proclaim their virtue and superiority for "following the science."
What is your advice then? What do the great minds on GAF know that the specialists that have spent most of their lives working and studying things like this dont?
 

Zefah

Gold Member
Jan 7, 2007
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What is your advice then? What do the great minds on GAF know that the specialists that have spent most of their lives working and studying things like this dont?
You've got to decide for yourself. As you just posted, your expert-guided government is failing you. Don't just blindly buy into anything that anyone says simply because of their credentials.

Throughout history, there has been no shortage of "experts" that were found to be full of shit and motivated to deceive the public for a variety of reasons.
 
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