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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check

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Joe T.

Member
China started reporting asymptomatic cases as of April 1st I believe.


I find it telling that you couldn't rationalize the double standards on testing.

You did the same thing the media did (for political purposes) in saying South Korea had "robust" testing. There was nothing robust about it. California, with a significantly lower population (and the US by extension), got dragged through the mud for having very similar testing capacity in mid-March (~17,000/day). The propaganda during this pandemic has been incredible.
 
I find it telling that you couldn't rationalize the double standards on testing.

You did the same thing the media did (for political purposes) in saying South Korea had "robust" testing. There was nothing robust about it. California, with a significantly lower population (and the US by extension), got dragged through the mud for having very similar testing capacity in mid-March (~17,000/day). The propaganda during this pandemic has been incredible.

Because l don't have a strong opinion about this whole thing and I'm extremely moderate in my politics. I just want to see some of our supposed technical prowess put to use in this country and at least show some semblance of organization.

I've also shown you that China has been reporting their asymptomatic cases since April. At the very least it's useful to show where the virus is.
 
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Privileged 🤣 now I have heard it all, I got help from family and friends ... you guys are so invested in negativity and in the blame game that you probably won’t pull through ... you can only change our own destiny. Others won’t do it for you.
Ummm... that is privilege there buddy. At least by every definition of the word I have ever heard. A lot of people don’t have friends and family who will prop them up for 14 months when they don’t have a job.
 
and? so when old people die it‘s ok?
What do you mean by ok? It’s nature. It’s reality. Old people dying at essentially the end of their natural life from a naturally occurring disease is the way life has always been and likely always will be. Whether it’s ok or not isn’t really important.

You recognize there is a massive difference between old people dying and young people dying, yes?
 

diffusionx

Gold Member
and? so when old people die it‘s ok?

Since when was the goal to avoid death lol? Old people die. If getting 78 year olds to live another six months (and that's the average age of "COVID deaths", 78) comes at the cost of 50 year olds dying from untreated cancer or a heart attack in their home, or 25 year olds getting hooked on dope or killing themselves, or making it so tens of millions of 40 year old parents cannot feed their kids, then that is really not a wise decision.

I mean, go ahead and ask an old person, if another six months of life (six months of miserable life, isolated from your friends and family) means your grandchild loses his job or develops an alcohol addiction from the stress of isolation, is that worth it, what do you think they will say? Yet for some weird reason our society has decided that is an acceptable decision.
 
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Joe T.

Member
Because l don't have a strong opinion about this whole thing and I'm extremely moderate in my politics. I just want to see some of our supposed technical prowess put to use in this country and at least show some semblance of organization.

I'm not interested in the politics here, just the opposite. If you think South Korea had robust testing then wouldn't it be safe to say California and New York (16,000/day in March -CNBC) did, too?

This question exposes the problems in our reporting. That reporting gets absorbed by the masses and winds up poisoning the discussion. The double standard is divisive by nature because anyone that points it out by providing additional context with relevant facts gets, ironically, dismissed as a conspiracy theorist or politically biased. People get into heated arguments, dig their heels in, refuse to learn from each other because they're on opposing "teams", and the unity needed to rise above this moment is lost.

The truth is a stubborn thing, difficult to ignore it once it's been exposed. What's funny about that is how they planned for this at Event 201 in October, but when you go back to look at the language they used it seems they flipped the script and are flooding the zone with disinformation in order to bury the truth. Watch for yourself at the 8:55 mark in this highlight video (NBC Universal just before that saying they needed to deliver concise information to avoid mass panic is also rich in hindsight):

 

Nymphae

Banned
GqVL1m5.gif
 

carlosrox

Banned
Owned another COVID warrior so hard it was embarrassing.

Cept this time they couldn't delete their comments since I started the comment chain.

We'll all have a howl over it when I get a chance to post the pics.

😁
 
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Good article from Dr John Lee (a patholigist) in the Telegraph a uk newspaper.

This year, like many years, there’s a new respiratory virus on the block. But this year, unlike any year ever before, the world has gone mad. Governments around the world have decided that their remit extends to micromanaging risk on behalf of everybody, for just about everything: where and when you can travel, what you must wear, what you can buy. Even in your own home, for goodness sake, amongst your own family, the state thinks it is “right” to regulate who you mix with, who you can see and who you can touch.


How did we come to this? Could such an approach ever be regarded as genuinely reasonable? To be honest, I think that it would be a stretch under any circumstances. But I could envisage a situation where a new pathogen was so nasty – say highly transmissible and reliably killing 30 per cent of people of all ages that it infected – that the very fabric of society would be at stake unless the state acted decisively.


But even in such dire circumstances the state would need to understand very clearly indeed what it was doing, in order to be absolutely sure that compelling populations to act in one way or another would definitely cause less harm than giving people the facts and letting them make their own decisions about risk. After all, what other justification could there reasonably be for trying to restrictively rewrite the rulebook of human interaction?


Of course, this has been tried before for all sorts of ideological reasons, and resulted in a 100 per cent track record of failure and disaster; responsible for untold misery, suffering, tragedy and deaths. One would have thought that there is a lesson there somewhere. Suffice it to say that Covid is orders of magnitude away from causing the level of societal damage that would justify even considering such a response.


Current consensus on the infection fatality rate (which has been continually falling as better data arrives) is 0.2 per cent. When we look back at this period any visible mortality signal will be well within the envelope of the last 30 years when deaths caused by lockdown are excluded. The average age of death from Covid is actually above the average age of death from all causes.


So why are governments around the world persisting in, and indeed elaborating, responses that are progressively being seen, as evidence accumulates, to be fundamentally wrong?


You don’t have to listen too hard to hear the sound of many, many pigeons coming home to roost simultaneously. I think this is why it has been so hard to explain what is happening, and why so many people remain deeply unsure as to what the right course of action should be. Any given article or interview tends to deal with only one or two key points, leaving so many unanswered questions for most people that doubt and confusion fill the gaps. Neither governments nor their advisors seem able to see the big picture, let alone explain it. So here is my attempt to assemble, in one place, the most important of the very many drivers of the Covid response.


1. Preconceptions


Current ideas about how to “control” viruses are based on Spanish flu, smallpox, SARS, MERS, HIV, influenza and Ebola, among others. This coronavirus isn’t the same as any of them. The idea of “controlling” an airborne, easily transmissible virus on a population basis, beloved of “public health” “experts”, is largely myth, based on mediocre observational or questionnaire-based studies using unverified and unverifiable methods.


2. Incorrect framing


Television pictures from China, Italy and New York painted a picture of a deadly new global plague and were highly instrumental in determining the initial response. But TV pictures are highly selective and often unrepresentative, as was the case with coronavirus. Months ago, real-world evidence conclusively disproved initial perceptions of this virus, yet the initial framing still seems to be a key driver of government responses around the world.



3. Fear


It is a strong and evolutionarily valuable human emotion. Broadcast and social media are effective in maintaining it, especially with government backing aimed at generating the “correct” reactions from people. Written media is often more nuanced and thoughtful, but narrower in appeal, and slower to take effect. It has struggled to balance the broadcast narrative, which has thrived on highly selective presentation of information.


4. Poor quality data


The prerequisite for our current shambles of rubbish-in, rubbish-out, affecting all areas of our understanding of Covid. Suspension of peer review in the name of speed has removed a crucial quality control, undermining much research in the field and encouraging false consensus.


5. Excessive risk aversion


The anti-scientific Precautionary Principle has become so entrenched in public decision-making that it seems almost normal to respond to an unquantified threat with responses that have had no prior assessment for either effectiveness or harm.


6. Suppression of debate


In their eagerness to entrench the “right” course of action, governments have radically reduced the chances of it being found by suppressing contrary views. There is also an inability to have a grown-up and measured public conversation about human lifespan, illness and death. What does “saving lives” actually mean? Whose lives, and saved for what? And where is the discussion about quality of life? Old people do die, and we all are, in fact, more susceptible to dying of everything with advancing age. Covid is no exception to this.


7. Flawed testing


Detailed technical problems with the rapid development and mass rollout of tests (by technicians who are often marginally trained), without a sound biological understanding of the tests’ basis or meaning. Few are armed with the knowledge needed to understand (among other things) the technical subtleties of PCR or antibody tests, the meaning (if any) of weak positives, the relevance of antibodies versus T-cell reactions, the statistical invalidities of test and trace, the inadequacies of death certification, or the details of why get-out-of-jail-via-vaccination has such a low probability of success. These details matter.



8. Perpetually moving goalposts


Save the NHS, save lives, reduce “cases”, reduce positive tests, “control” the virus….


9. Focus on a single threat


And the virtual exclusion of everything else. How “public health” doctors can claim to be protecting “public health” with this approach seems incomprehensible, as well as being medically negligent.



10. Skewed motives


Political desire to be seen to be taking action. Media-driven and short-term, taking action is apparently politically desirable even if it means subjecting entire populations to experimental, unverifiable, oppressive methods of viral “control”. This also mirrors a cultural divide in medicine between interventionists and nihilists.


There are probably more drivers of the Covid response that could be listed, but you can see the many-tentacled head of the medusa that is petrifying society. It seems pretty clear that if we are asked to make major sacrifices there should be solid, quantifiable evidence of benefit to justify them. Unfortunately the solid, quantifiable evidence of benefit of the current approach to Covid simply does not exist.


The secrecy surrounding the basis for the government’s decisions speaks volumes. In fact, real-world data suggests that the harms caused by current actions outweigh the benefits when measured even in terms of deaths, and massively outweigh the benefits when measured in terms of quality of life – which, after all, is central to the human experience at all ages.


How can we know what would have happened if we had never locked down? The simple answer is that, for our particular circumstances, we cannot know for sure. But countries which have not enforced lockdowns, of which Sweden is the nearest, have not been noticeable outliers in terms of deaths or illness.


More importantly, by allowing the virus to spread in the way that viruses do, these places are now in a much better position than countries which made major economic sacrifices, but still have to face the virus. Lockdowns may (perhaps) slow down slightly our arrival at herd immunity (through exposure of a large enough proportion of the population), but we will all get there in the end.


The only differences will be the extent of the own goals caused along the way by restrictions. Countries that have isolated themselves, such as New Zealand, will have to face the virus in due course or remain isolated from the world (their only get-out-of-jail-free card would be an effective vaccine). Yet the costs of such isolation seem highly suspect, since data suggests that very few cases of Covid are caught or spread by travellers. This virus has already circled the globe while we have been largely staying put. So we might as well start travelling again, since the risks, in a majority of countries, are rather similar.


So how can we find the right way forward? Revocation of progressively inappropriate emergency powers, with restoration of parliamentary scrutiny, accountability, transparency and debate must be part of it, along with involvement of a more diverse base of scientific and medical advisors.


If the NHS is struggling for capacity – which is debatable, and anyway substantially due to self-imposed rules related to “controlling” Covid – then sort it out: build more capacity, and remind NHS workers that they are there to look after the sick.


The bottom line is that, at the present time, there is no reasonable scientific or medical justification for lockdowns, convoluted social distancing rules, masks, travel restrictions, quarantines or most of the rest of the flotsam that has attached itself to the Covid response. The sky is not falling. And the more people who understand the multifaceted reasons why this is the case, the sooner we will all get our lives back.
 

Saruhashi

Banned
and? so when old people die it‘s ok?

Hm. You need to contextualise this kind of comment.

Everybody dies. If you get to die as an old person then that's pretty good. Think about it.

Regarding Covid you would surely want to consider the average age of those who do die and then compare that to the life expectancy in their region?

So if you looked at a country that has a life expectancy of 77 and the average age for Covid deaths is 79 then shouldn't we be more concerned about how many people aren't even living long enough to be in the Covid risk categories.

How many years would, for example, obesity take away from the average life span? Yet its deemed "fat shaming" to discuss that kind of thing.

How many lives could we save by just outright banning tobacco, junk food, alcohol and by forcing people to just live healthy lifestyles. We want to force them to wear masks and stay indoors after all. We don't care when it comes to eating yourself into an early grave? Hm.

The entire world was OK with old people dying right up until February this year and then it became very very important to shut down society.

Having lost relatives to long term, self inflicted, diseases I can confirm that it fucking sucks. I believe in personal responsibility though and while I am sure the government stepping in and forcing a diet of fresh healthy food and clean water would have saved a few lives I think that's a step too far.

We're all going to die. Pushing that day out as far as possible is worthwhile but there has to be a sense of balance.

For thousands of people, maybe even millions, this will be their last Xmas, new year, birthday etc and we're saying "just sit this one out folks". That's kind of horrible and not a good way to live.

Everyone has to die some day and in some way and very few get to just peacefully fall asleep and never wake up. Why do we suddenly care so so much about this specific cause of death?
 

T8SC

Member
EXCLUSIVE: National lockdown next week: Boris Johnson bows to scientific advisers and will order new nationwide coronavirus restrictions after warnings it was the only way to save Christmas




It's the Daily Mail so it could be complete nonsense.
 
EXCLUSIVE: National lockdown next week: Boris Johnson bows to scientific advisers and will order new nationwide coronavirus restrictions after warnings it was the only way to save Christmas




It's the Daily Mail so it could be complete nonsense.

 
This idea we have to “listen to doctors” is such bullshit. First of all, almost no one listens to their doctor. Everyone who smokes, drinks, eats like shit, sleeps like shit, doesn’t exercise... you’re all not listening to your doctor. And that’s your doctor. The one who actually knows something about you. Most people ignore that guy every single day.

So why in the hell would I let some “doctor” who doesn’t know the first thing about me, run my entire life? I’m not saying ignore them completely, but I’m the one who gets to decide at the end of the day what risks I’m going to take. And then I get to own those decisions. That’s the deal.

Second, “listening to doctors” only applies to the doctors saying what shutdown enthusiasts agree with. Doctors don’t agree about whether eggs are good for you or not. They certainly don’t agree about covid.

So the next time some fat, borderline alcoholic, out of shape person tells you we all need to “listen to the doctors”, you can tell them they can go first.
 
It's possible, but if he loses there's no doubt as to why
I actually completely agree. Trump’s messaging has not been great. I pretty much agree with most of what he’s actually done in terms of policy. I appreciate that he didn’t use a bunch of federal power to cram down “solutions” and left it to the states. I think he’s mobilized the private sector in a very effective way. We’re testing absurd amounts of people. We have ventilators and PPE. They’re about to roll out Regeneron which will be our most effective therapeutic yet. The vaccine should be ready before Christmas. He’s gotten a ton done.

But his messaging has not been very good. He should’ve struck a much more serious, but brave tone. Trump could’ve encouraged us to open things without trying to make the virus seem like it doesn’t matter. Even if you agree with him about the virus, I think people have the realize that his tone has hurt him.

That said, he should also be attacking Biden as Captain Lockdown. Nearly everyone is sick of the lockdowns and shutdowns.
 
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H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
EXCLUSIVE: National lockdown next week: Boris Johnson bows to scientific advisers and will order new nationwide coronavirus restrictions after warnings it was the only way to save Christmas




It's the Daily Mail so it could be complete nonsense.
Oh for fucks sake.
 

12Goblins

Lil’ Gobbie
I actually completely agree. Trump’s messaging has not been great. I pretty much agree with most of what he’s actually done in terms of policy. I appreciate that he didn’t use a bunch of federal power to cram down “solutions” and left it to the states. I think he’s mobilized the private sector in a very effective way. We’re testing absurd amounts of people. We have ventilators and PPE. They’re about to roll out Regeneron which will be our most effective therapeutic yet. The vaccine should be ready before Christmas. He’s gotten a ton done.

But his messaging has been very good. He should’ve struck a much more serious, but brave tone. Trump could’ve encouraged us to open things without trying to make the virus seem like it doesn’t matter. Even if you agree with him about the virus, I think people have the realize that his tone has hurt him.

That said, he should also be attacking Biden as Captain Lockdown. Nearly everyone is sick of the lockdowns and shutdowns.

100%. It's too easy to control people with fear
 

cryptoadam

Banned
Just lock down the old people why is that so hard. WTF. Ok I guess because most world leaders are old they don't want to lock themselves down or some BS.

Where I live we have more cases then we ever did at the first peak, but our hospitlization is more than 1/3rd of where it was and pretty much same for ICU. And we didn't weren't close to capacity last time either.
 

Joe T.

Member








Tensions in Europe rising. Some of the locals here in Quebec are pinning their hopes on Trump, waiting for the US election results before deciding on how to move forward.

The Quebec government's made it quite apparent this week that these measures will come and go well into 2022. Anyone still under the impression that if everyone followed all the measures with a 100% compliance that it would change anything is a lost cause. They wanted to lock things down and simply increased testing to justify it. They're pulling the same chicanery with hospitalizations and deaths. Video below's in English:

 

prag16

Banned


I have a feeling we'll be waiting a lot more than two weeks for an obscene surge of deaths in Sweden.

(For anyone keeping score at home, two full months ago the case counts in Sweden started climbing. Deaths have remained absolutely flatlined. Have not budged whatsoever. Doesn't mean they won't to some degree, but the tweet clearly is trying instill hysteria at the prospect that the death graph is going to follow the case graph parabolic. Literally has not happened anywhere.)
 
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cryptoadam

Banned








Tensions in Europe rising. Some of the locals here in Quebec are pinning their hopes on Trump, waiting for the US election results before deciding on how to move forward.

The Quebec government's made it quite apparent this week that these measures will come and go well into 2022. Anyone still under the impression that if everyone followed all the measures with a 100% compliance that it would change anything is a lost cause. They wanted to lock things down and simply increased testing to justify it. They're pulling the same chicanery with hospitalizations and deaths. Video below's in English:



Been checked out of local Rona. So we back to another 28 days red zones? Its gonna be lockdown till April basically.

I don't even know what the plan is, because no way CLSC can handle vaccines those places are dumps.
 

Joe T.

Member
Been checked out of local Rona. So we back to another 28 days red zones? Its gonna be lockdown till April basically.

I don't even know what the plan is, because no way CLSC can handle vaccines those places are dumps.

Yup. They said they might lower the measures at the two week point if things went well, but only the gullible will buy that. I'm guessing they'll instead use that two week mark to tighten the noose, probably come down on retailers since Black Friday's become just as big up here as it is down south. Trudeau, Hajdu and Tam have already tossed Christmas out the window.
 

Castorp

Member
People are too divided

In France, there are a lot of people who want a stricter lockdown (it is actually lighter than the first one, we go to work, more shops opened, but still !) : all the people in the medical industry who gain money from all this mess, all the people who watch tv and are really scared by the numbers, all the people who have bad jobs and can stay at home paid...
Not one political figure seriously attacks all these decisions. In France, there is now a mask rule for 6 y old children!
Media are despicable. Their main point is to "sell" the lockdown. Articles to teach us how to live under lockdown / stay at home/watch netflix/save lives.

Lockdown in UK seems logical sequence after french one. Macron/Merkel/Boris surely agreed of these lockdowns together. Their main point being "other countries do it".

The situation is truly terrifying. Where are the young ones ? How they don't protest more to stop this mess. Maybe the ps5 shortage will help.

France as it where before COVID is now financially dead. We were fighting hard against the France debt until COVID.
Now it raised too much. Government will be able to greatly to reduce the social wellfare because of the "COVID debt".
 

Dr.D00p

Member
Government will be able to greatly to reduce the social wellfare because of the "COVID debt".

Well France has been living beyond its means for decades when it comes to social welfare spending. Covid has simply brought forward the day of reckoning.
 

FrostyLemon

Member
Good article from Dr John Lee (a patholigist) in the Telegraph a uk newspaper.

This year, like many years, there’s a new respiratory virus on the block. But this year, unlike any year ever before, the world has gone mad. Governments around the world have decided that their remit extends to micromanaging risk on behalf of everybody, for just about everything: where and when you can travel, what you must wear, what you can buy. Even in your own home, for goodness sake, amongst your own family, the state thinks it is “right” to regulate who you mix with, who you can see and who you can touch.


How did we come to this? Could such an approach ever be regarded as genuinely reasonable? To be honest, I think that it would be a stretch under any circumstances. But I could envisage a situation where a new pathogen was so nasty – say highly transmissible and reliably killing 30 per cent of people of all ages that it infected – that the very fabric of society would be at stake unless the state acted decisively.


But even in such dire circumstances the state would need to understand very clearly indeed what it was doing, in order to be absolutely sure that compelling populations to act in one way or another would definitely cause less harm than giving people the facts and letting them make their own decisions about risk. After all, what other justification could there reasonably be for trying to restrictively rewrite the rulebook of human interaction?


Of course, this has been tried before for all sorts of ideological reasons, and resulted in a 100 per cent track record of failure and disaster; responsible for untold misery, suffering, tragedy and deaths. One would have thought that there is a lesson there somewhere. Suffice it to say that Covid is orders of magnitude away from causing the level of societal damage that would justify even considering such a response.


Current consensus on the infection fatality rate (which has been continually falling as better data arrives) is 0.2 per cent. When we look back at this period any visible mortality signal will be well within the envelope of the last 30 years when deaths caused by lockdown are excluded. The average age of death from Covid is actually above the average age of death from all causes.


So why are governments around the world persisting in, and indeed elaborating, responses that are progressively being seen, as evidence accumulates, to be fundamentally wrong?


You don’t have to listen too hard to hear the sound of many, many pigeons coming home to roost simultaneously. I think this is why it has been so hard to explain what is happening, and why so many people remain deeply unsure as to what the right course of action should be. Any given article or interview tends to deal with only one or two key points, leaving so many unanswered questions for most people that doubt and confusion fill the gaps. Neither governments nor their advisors seem able to see the big picture, let alone explain it. So here is my attempt to assemble, in one place, the most important of the very many drivers of the Covid response.


1. Preconceptions


Current ideas about how to “control” viruses are based on Spanish flu, smallpox, SARS, MERS, HIV, influenza and Ebola, among others. This coronavirus isn’t the same as any of them. The idea of “controlling” an airborne, easily transmissible virus on a population basis, beloved of “public health” “experts”, is largely myth, based on mediocre observational or questionnaire-based studies using unverified and unverifiable methods.


2. Incorrect framing


Television pictures from China, Italy and New York painted a picture of a deadly new global plague and were highly instrumental in determining the initial response. But TV pictures are highly selective and often unrepresentative, as was the case with coronavirus. Months ago, real-world evidence conclusively disproved initial perceptions of this virus, yet the initial framing still seems to be a key driver of government responses around the world.



3. Fear


It is a strong and evolutionarily valuable human emotion. Broadcast and social media are effective in maintaining it, especially with government backing aimed at generating the “correct” reactions from people. Written media is often more nuanced and thoughtful, but narrower in appeal, and slower to take effect. It has struggled to balance the broadcast narrative, which has thrived on highly selective presentation of information.


4. Poor quality data


The prerequisite for our current shambles of rubbish-in, rubbish-out, affecting all areas of our understanding of Covid. Suspension of peer review in the name of speed has removed a crucial quality control, undermining much research in the field and encouraging false consensus.


5. Excessive risk aversion


The anti-scientific Precautionary Principle has become so entrenched in public decision-making that it seems almost normal to respond to an unquantified threat with responses that have had no prior assessment for either effectiveness or harm.


6. Suppression of debate


In their eagerness to entrench the “right” course of action, governments have radically reduced the chances of it being found by suppressing contrary views. There is also an inability to have a grown-up and measured public conversation about human lifespan, illness and death. What does “saving lives” actually mean? Whose lives, and saved for what? And where is the discussion about quality of life? Old people do die, and we all are, in fact, more susceptible to dying of everything with advancing age. Covid is no exception to this.


7. Flawed testing


Detailed technical problems with the rapid development and mass rollout of tests (by technicians who are often marginally trained), without a sound biological understanding of the tests’ basis or meaning. Few are armed with the knowledge needed to understand (among other things) the technical subtleties of PCR or antibody tests, the meaning (if any) of weak positives, the relevance of antibodies versus T-cell reactions, the statistical invalidities of test and trace, the inadequacies of death certification, or the details of why get-out-of-jail-via-vaccination has such a low probability of success. These details matter.



8. Perpetually moving goalposts


Save the NHS, save lives, reduce “cases”, reduce positive tests, “control” the virus….


9. Focus on a single threat


And the virtual exclusion of everything else. How “public health” doctors can claim to be protecting “public health” with this approach seems incomprehensible, as well as being medically negligent.



10. Skewed motives


Political desire to be seen to be taking action. Media-driven and short-term, taking action is apparently politically desirable even if it means subjecting entire populations to experimental, unverifiable, oppressive methods of viral “control”. This also mirrors a cultural divide in medicine between interventionists and nihilists.


There are probably more drivers of the Covid response that could be listed, but you can see the many-tentacled head of the medusa that is petrifying society. It seems pretty clear that if we are asked to make major sacrifices there should be solid, quantifiable evidence of benefit to justify them. Unfortunately the solid, quantifiable evidence of benefit of the current approach to Covid simply does not exist.


The secrecy surrounding the basis for the government’s decisions speaks volumes. In fact, real-world data suggests that the harms caused by current actions outweigh the benefits when measured even in terms of deaths, and massively outweigh the benefits when measured in terms of quality of life – which, after all, is central to the human experience at all ages.


How can we know what would have happened if we had never locked down? The simple answer is that, for our particular circumstances, we cannot know for sure. But countries which have not enforced lockdowns, of which Sweden is the nearest, have not been noticeable outliers in terms of deaths or illness.


More importantly, by allowing the virus to spread in the way that viruses do, these places are now in a much better position than countries which made major economic sacrifices, but still have to face the virus. Lockdowns may (perhaps) slow down slightly our arrival at herd immunity (through exposure of a large enough proportion of the population), but we will all get there in the end.


The only differences will be the extent of the own goals caused along the way by restrictions. Countries that have isolated themselves, such as New Zealand, will have to face the virus in due course or remain isolated from the world (their only get-out-of-jail-free card would be an effective vaccine). Yet the costs of such isolation seem highly suspect, since data suggests that very few cases of Covid are caught or spread by travellers. This virus has already circled the globe while we have been largely staying put. So we might as well start travelling again, since the risks, in a majority of countries, are rather similar.


So how can we find the right way forward? Revocation of progressively inappropriate emergency powers, with restoration of parliamentary scrutiny, accountability, transparency and debate must be part of it, along with involvement of a more diverse base of scientific and medical advisors.


If the NHS is struggling for capacity – which is debatable, and anyway substantially due to self-imposed rules related to “controlling” Covid – then sort it out: build more capacity, and remind NHS workers that they are there to look after the sick.


The bottom line is that, at the present time, there is no reasonable scientific or medical justification for lockdowns, convoluted social distancing rules, masks, travel restrictions, quarantines or most of the rest of the flotsam that has attached itself to the Covid response. The sky is not falling. And the more people who understand the multifaceted reasons why this is the case, the sooner we will all get our lives back.

Stopped reading when I got to Sweden not being noticeable outliers. A quick look at their deaths per million in comparison to their Nordic neighbours tells the truth.
 

Birdo

Banned
I'm watching a live stream of a giant halloween street party in Japan.

It's so strange watching other countries being totally back to normal. Yet here we are, locked in our houses again....... It really feels like we are just being fucked with.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
I'm watching a live stream of a giant halloween street party in Japan.

It's so strange watching other countries being totally back to normal. Yet here we are, locked in our houses again....... It really feels like we are just being fucked with.
If you're from the UK, you are being fucked with. The PCR test is 93% false positive, and how they are coming up with these huge numbers is testing volunteers and then extrapolating on the overall population,.

This November lock down is so Boris can come out the other side as the Prime Minister that saved Christmas. That's right, 4 to 6 weeks locked up so you can have one evening at your mum's for dinner.
 
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