Support NeoGAF

[victreeb3l]

To give some sense of who actually has something to be paranoid about, this is what happened to the Hindu population in Pakistan, contrast to the stronger than ever 13.5% Muslim population in India. Other minorities followed a similar trend in Pakistan since independence.

It's a big part of why India giving up on Kashmir would be a terrifying prospect for the minorities that live there.

Wouldnt the decrease in number be due to Hindus migrating to India after partition? Or am I missing something?

 

[Zapages]

I really need to transcribe and translate my Grandfather and Grandmother's real life stories from the partition.

My Grandfather had actually met Jinnah as a kid and he shared stories that Jinnah was a great man, who was about tolerance for all Muslims, Hindus, Christinas, Sikhs, and minorities.... One instance was when my Grandfather as young kid decided to pick up sticks during a protest/rally for Muslims. Jinnah came to the youth and told them if you wish to protest then drop your weapons. If you bring your weapons then you are not with me nor with the Muslim League.

Anyway both of my grandparents from both sides of my family had real close calls with death during the times of partition. One instance that I distinctly remember is that my Grandfather's train got attacked and fortunately, his boxcar was closer to the engine and they were spared... I have many more heartfelt stories on how they were saved minorities and so forth.

We both agreed, we all live in interesting times... Its just how we survive through them that what counts.

Anyway, this was the most balanced article that I have read about India and Pakistan for a long time.

What India has forcibly done in Kashmir, Hyderabad, and Operation Blue Star.... This is It truly is really sad!

Many Pakistanis believe Kashmir is part of Pakistan due to what happened at Hyderabad and Junagadh.... The problem is Nehru is from Kashmir and he wanted to be part of India, but with no regards to the majority population wanted to join Pakistan during the partition.

Also watch the movie called Jinnah The Movie, its really good biography of Jinnah.

Wouldnt the decrease in number be due to Hindus migrating to India after partition? Or am I missing something?

Yes that is correct.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

Anyway both of my grandparents from both sides of my family had real close calls with death during the times of partition. One instance that I distinctly remember is that my Grandfather's train got attacked and fortunately, his boxcar was closer to the engine and they were spared... I have many more heartfelt stories on how they were saved minorities and so forth.

My grandfather had similar stories from partition. One that sticks out to me was him talking about how him and my great grandmother hid at night during the riots. That during the day when he went outside and saw all the men lined up at the butcher shop taking turns sharpening machetes for the night clashes. One night in particular three men, bloody and with knives busted into the house and found my great grandmother and him but the men were Muslim and left the house.

 

[ebullientprism]

Yeah keep blaming India. It's been working out great for Pakistan so far.

 

[Sayah]

Pakistan has been at an existential crisis ever since the country was formed. It's part of the reason why its been heavily militarized. There's the conflict with India over Kashmir and the ongoing rivalry there. Both countries have an ongoing security dilemma where they've buffed up their defense and compromised key areas such as healthcare and education for more military power. In that regard, both countries are pretty similar. They have a largely poor population deprived of basic necessities, a strong military, nuclear weapons, and high-ranking intelligence agencies. The increasing prominence of the far right in both countries is also scary, including the fact that India voted in BJP leadership.

Pakistan, in addition, also faces a threat from Afghanistan, largely because Afghanistan still claims that huge swaths of Pakistan's territory (including Khyber and Baluchistan) should be separated (vis a vis Afghanistan's stance on the Durand Line). And, of course, Pakistan also claims that India is funding terrorists in Pakistan and subversive/separatist activities in Baluchistan, the same way that India claims Pakistan is funding terrorists in Kashmir. It's just a sad situation all around.

To give some sense of who actually has something to be paranoid about, this is what happened to the Hindu population in Pakistan, contrast to the stronger than ever 13.5% Muslim population in India. Other minorities followed a similar trend in Pakistan since independence.

It's a big part of why India giving up on Kashmir would be a terrifying prospect for the minorities that live there.

What's your point here? The Hindu population in Pakistan decreased right after partition, which was the largest mass movement of humans in history. I'm sure India's Muslim population also decreased at that time due to the swaths of Muslims that migrated to Pakistan.

 

[Sayah]

In any case, I wouldn't blame just India for Pakistan's current mess. I would also blame Pakistan for its largely incompetent civilian leadership and zealous military, Britain for its complete mismanagement of the partition and resource allocation, in addition to the decades of its divide and rule strategy in pre-partition India, and United States for funding militants in Afghanistan in collaboration with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia during the cold war era to get rid of Russian occupation in Afghanistan, which later led to the Taliban's rule and other chains of events.

At the same time, as much as people like to call Pakistan a failed state, the country has pretty much stood on its feet through thick and thin thanks to a strong military. You would also want to hope that a country possessing nuclear weapons is able to maintain its sovereignty, and thankfully, it has done a good job of doing that so far despite all of the below.

 

[Azih]

Nah, you can't blame India for all of Pakistan's current problems.

Be fair. No one is saying all. But ignoring the massive external factors that have pressured Pakistan over its history is not responsible behavior.

Yeah keep blaming India. It's been working out great for Pakistan so far.

To the title, I guess in the sense of India using the time since independence to get to Mars while Pakistan spent it all trying to get terrorists across the Indian border.

Recency bias doesn't help either. Pakistan was doing better than India for a good few decades.

Look. There's reasons my family emigrated from Pakistan. One of them is that my people keep getting killed by terrorists so I am under absolutely no illusions about the problems that country has.

But demonizing the place or turning into a scapegoat for absolutely everything that goes wrong in the region does a major disservice to reality.

 

[PhantomX1313]

A history thread!

 

[Buba Big Guns]

Pakistan is a mess, and sadly almost a failed state at this point. It's sad hearing about what your parents told you about how the country was from the 60s to 80s and how it is now.

Afghani refugees, Zia Ul-Haq, extreme corruption, and more recently paranoia, Saudi funding, and lack of self realization has done it in.

A country of 200 million people has an unbelievable amount of potential. Just imagine if the partition never happened.

 

[noquarter]

Thanks for sharing the bits of stories from your grandparents and such. Haven't ever talked to anyone that was alive during the time period and still interested in the stories of what it was like.

You can blame that on this guy.

I swear he is probably the person, in my opinion, that did the most irreparable damage to Pakistan as a country and society.
He thought he could unite Pakistan by using Islam to his advantage in the 80s with fundamentalist Islam during the Soviet-Afghan War.
By Gen. Zia ul Haq's Islamization policies he sought to bridge Pakistan more with the Middle East, away from its Indian Subcontinent heritage.
He is the reason for the Blasphemy laws, he is the reason for the large amount of radical Madrassas, the Afghan problem, the Taliban problem in the Northwest, and fundamentalism as a whole.

Jinnah would be ashamed someone like this ever controlled the country.

Reading about that coup and the aftermath really did make me agree that he damaged the country more than any other President/Prime Minister. But the country was appearing to go though way anyway, he just sped it up by a couple of decades. Would be interesting to see what would have happened if he wasn't ever in charge.

My grandad was telling me what it was like living through the final days of the British Raj. Says walking from what became Pakistan to India was the longest walk of his entire life.

I can't imagine what that would have been like, I'm sure it was the longest walk he ever did take.

Reading about Independence for both countries, I just took it for a good thing, most articles I was reading didn't really bring up the partition at all. Later, when I read about the first few months of the partition, it started to change my feelings on the whole event. It being the largest mass migration of humans ever really didn't come to mind until I actually read about it.

To give some sense of who actually has something to be paranoid about, this is what happened to the Hindu population in Pakistan, contrast to the stronger than ever 13.5% Muslim population in India. Other minorities followed a similar trend in Pakistan since independence.

It's a big part of why India giving up on Kashmir would be a terrifying prospect for the minorities that live there.

As has been pointed out, what is this graphic supposed to show? That during the years immediately following the partition a bunch of Hindus left Pakistan? That is known.

 

[Renekton]

Sometimes strong leadership can pull thru. When Singapore split from Malaysia (also British rule prior) due to racism politics, it was a tiny island with almost nothing except a decent port. Compare that to Malaysia's embarassment of natural resources and fertile land. Singapore was left to die.

 

[Oriel]

Pakistan failed itself, it has no one else to blame. The country has lurched from one crisis to another and riven by ethnic and religious violence fuelled by swings from extreme nationalism to Islamic fundamentalism. Its breakup into independent states of Punjab, Sind and Balochistan (where a decades long, bloody war of independence that's left hundreds of thousands dead has been raging), along with the Pashtun regions to Afghanistan and POK to India could end up being the country's ultimate fate.

 

[Zapages]

I would just like to share this... Pakistan is failed state rhetoric seems apparent from a person who is observing things from the outside aka abroad. Also most folks who support PTI aka Imran Khan like push this further due to the facts that they don't like the current ruling party. Also most of them are online due to most PTI folks coming from the upper middle and upper class of Pakistan society. Everyone has their own opinion and I have no right say they are wrong or right. Anyway, I digress here.

I had chance to visit last year and my Father visited a few months ago. Honestly, things there are improving.

The situation in Pakistan is improving, but its going to take time. I felt the economy was getting better and things just were coming up. Although the education system there is interesting as every student there spends all year basically in school with little break due going to tutors to studying extra hard to succeed as there will be another person right next to you fighting for that position. The influx of immigrants throughout years even after the partition in the 1950s and population pressure has caused Pakistan to be every cut-throat society in terms of education as everything is based on numbers. I do wish there weren't too many splintered education routes, but at the same time it gives the population avenues to explore.

Also the society there has a notion of the government should do everything for them without them even trying to do things right themselves. Yet they continue to the blame government for the most simple situation or reasons.

The main issue that Pakistan has is the lack of health care facilities and the push for religious dogmatiism due to Saudi funding of religious schools. This going cause problems in the future, but at the same time Pakistani population is getting educated and will eventually lead to corrupt politicians to be not elected.... This will take a long time and patiences from all sides of the party. Also Pakistan needs strong democratic governance and no more military rule... The military rule is core reason why Pakistan is in this predicament.

Any back on topic,

What Pakistan and India need to do is stop blaming each other for A) Terrorism, B)Stop middling in each others internal affairs. C) Come to the table about Kashmir and be pragmatic about it.

The boogeyman of Kashmir is what is pushing both militaries and religious zealots to want mutual destruction of both countries... I hope India's rulers realize that India has more to lose than Pakistan in an open conflict with each other.

The main question remains, if India was able to take over Hyderabad and Junagadh due to over-whelming Hindu Majority with Muslim leaders of those states. Then Pakistan has full right on Kashmir's regions that Muslim majority.

Interestingly, my Father met Modi's Foreign Affairs or was Financial Affairs Minister a few weeks back at his work. He even gave my Father his card that he has. Anyway, according to him Modi's plan is pressure Pakistan so much that it will cause Pakistan to attack India and return India will break Pakistan and incorporate part of her territory in some manner. In other words completely neutralize Pakistan. In another scenario is that if Modi or India is not able to do this and Pakistan becomes a stable economic powerhouse due CPEC, and few other projects. Then this will cause preasure on India to solve the Kashmir issue through diplomatic means and if they that occurs then more regions within India could strive for Independence. Overall, in his opinion RAW is currently tracking about 10 to 12 regions in India that could want independence....

Economic growth in Pakistan in 2016:

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1059155/pakistans-economy-is-back-on-track-says-top-us-magazine/

http://www.adb.org/countries/pakistan/economy

http://www.dawn.com/news/1269350

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielr...the-next-colombia-success-story/#4282d5933b60

 

[Jumeira]

I hear from Indian Muslims that they never wanted so many Muslims to brake away from them. I understand not all that has happened was due to Pakistan, and Jinnah vision of Pakistan isn't what it is now, but India should have remained as India imo, there's so much talent in Pakistan that isn't being utlized that would be otherwise and the tragic loss of lives, neighbours vs neighbours, friends vs friends and continued violence between the 2 just wasn't worth what resulted in the end. Not sure if it's a failed state but it seems incapable of fixing deep underlying issues within itself, not sure what they can do when the majority of people that live their are ultra religious and poorly educated, but then there are a minority that are progressive thinkers and extremely well educated that are unfortunately ignored as being too western.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I would just like to share this... Pakistan is failed state rhetoric seems apparent from a person who is observing things from the outside aka abroad. Also most folks who support PTI aka Imran Khan like push this further due to the facts that they don't like the current ruling party. Also most of them are online due to most PTI folks coming from the upper middle and upper class of Pakistan society. Everyone has their own opinion and I have no right say they are wrong or right. Anyway, I digress here.

I had chance to visit last year and my Father visited a few months ago. Honestly, things there are improving.

The situation in Pakistan is improving, but its going to take time. I felt the economy was getting better and things just were coming up. Although the education system there is interesting as every student there spends all year basically in school with little break due going to tutors to studying extra hard to succeed as there will be another person right next to you fighting for that position. The influx of immigrants throughout years even after the partition in the 1950s and population pressure has caused Pakistan to be every cut-throat society in terms of education as everything is based on numbers. I do wish there weren't too many splintered education routes, but at the same time it gives the population avenues to explore.

Also the society there has a notion of the government should do everything for them without them even trying to do things right themselves. Yet they continue to the blame government for the most simple situation or reasons.

The main issue that Pakistan has is the lack of health care facilities and the push for religious dogmatiism due to Saudi funding of religious schools. This going cause problems in the future, but at the same time Pakistani population is getting educated and will eventually lead to corrupt politicians to be not elected.... This will take a long time and patiences from all sides of the party. Also Pakistan needs strong democratic governance and no more military rule... The military rule is core reason why Pakistan is in this predicament.

Any back on topic,

What Pakistan and India need to do is stop blaming each other for A) Terrorism, B)Stop middling in each others internal affairs. C) Come to the table about Kashmir and be pragmatic about it.

The boogeyman of Kashmir is what is pushing both militaries and religious zealots to want mutual destruction of both countries... I hope India's rulers realize that India has more to lose than Pakistan in an open conflict with each other.

The main question remains, if India was able to take over Hyderabad and Junagadh due to over-whelming Hindu Majority with Muslim leaders of those states. Then Pakistan has full right on Kashmir's regions that Muslim majority.

Interestingly, my Father met Modi's Foreign Affairs or was Financial Affairs Minister a few weeks back at his work. He even gave my Father his card that he has. Anyway, according to him Modi's plan is pressure Pakistan so much that it will cause Pakistan to attack India and return India will break Pakistan and incorporate part of her territory in some manner. In other words completely neutralize Pakistan. In another scenario is that if Modi or India is not able to do this and Pakistan becomes a stable economic powerhouse due CPEC, and few other projects. Then this will cause preasure on India to solve the Kashmir issue through diplomatic means and if they that occurs then more regions within India could strive for Independence. Overall, in his opinion RAW is currently tracking about 10 to 12 regions in India that could want independence....

Economic growth in Pakistan in 2016:

http://tribune.com.pk/story/1059155/pakistans-economy-is-back-on-track-says-top-us-magazine/

http://www.adb.org/countries/pakistan/economy

http://www.dawn.com/news/1269350

http://www.forbes.com/sites/danielr...the-next-colombia-success-story/#4282d5933b60

Why should India stop blaming Pakistan for supporting terrorism against India?

I mean it wasn't India that started Kargil.

 

[Ishan]

I'm sure India is to blame . Just that it's reason number 18371839 that Pakistan is a mess.

 

[nOoblet16]

I need sources of curriculum here. We can't just generalize and say they don't learn any of those topics. Most of my relatives say they've learned about Mohejo Daro, Harappa, Mauryan and Gupta Empires as well as the rule of the Mughals.

Uh I don't understand.
Just a few post above you agreed with me and said the blame lies on Zia ul Haq. And now you say otherwise?

My current roommate is Pakistani, he has never heard of the mauryans. Mughals were after the Islamic contact and they directly preceded the British, as such not related to what I am talking about.

 

[MisterFalcon]

I'm sure India is to blame . Just that it's reason number 18371839 that Pakistan is a mess.

It's the sixth pillar of islam: the unbeliever is always at fault.

 

[krimsoncharge]

Interestingly, my Father met Modi's Foreign Affairs or was Financial Affairs Minister a few weeks back at his work. He even gave my Father his card that he has. Anyway, according to him Modi's plan is pressure Pakistan so much that it will cause Pakistan to attack India and return India will break Pakistan and incorporate part of her territory in some manner. In other words completely neutralize Pakistan. In another scenario is that if Modi or India is not able to do this and Pakistan becomes a stable economic powerhouse due CPEC, and few other projects. Then this will cause preasure on India to solve the Kashmir issue through diplomatic means and if they that occurs then more regions within India could strive for Independence. Overall, in his opinion RAW is currently tracking about 10 to 12 regions in India that could want independence....

LMFAO.

 

[nOoblet16]

The main question remains, if India was able to take over Hyderabad and Junagadh due to over-whelming Hindu Majority with Muslim leaders of those states. Then Pakistan has full right on Kashmir's regions that Muslim majority.

Pakistan has no "right" per say to Kashmir just because it was muslim majority, it became part of India in a fully legal sense. The "muslim majority areas go to Pakistan and Hindu to India" didn't apply to princely states where the decision rested with the ruler.

Your comparison is Hyderabad is unfounded because firstly it wasn't overwhelming non-muslim. Secondly the Nizam of Hyderabad didn't choose Pakistan, in fact he didnt choose either of the countries and wanted to to be independent, which was rejected ofcourse after which he choose India. In comparison the King of Kashmir choose to stay with India...both princely states which choose to align with India.

Now Junagadh...that's where things get a bit iffy, the ruler choose to align with Pakistan. Which caused a civil war within his territories. If anything Pakistan has more claim to Junagadh than it does on Kashmir despite the fact that Junagadh was overwhelmingly Hindu.


Tbh if I was asked for an opinion I'd suggest both countries to back off and let Kashmir go independent...that's what most the people there want anyways. Between the human rights abuses of Indian army and other stuff in the Pakistan's side of Kashmir the people themselves are better off being independent.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Freedom at Midnight. It's the only book you need.

This is probably the next event i'm gonna read about. What's with historical books on muslim countries and midnight though? Lol.

 

[MikeMyers]

Thanks for sharing the bits of stories from your grandparents and such. Haven't ever talked to anyone that was alive during the time period and still interested in the stories of what it was like.

I can't imagine what that would have been like, I'm sure it was the longest walk he ever did take.

Yeah, apparently a lot of people just died from how long the walk it was.

 

[ebullientprism]

Interestingly, my Father met Modi's Foreign Affairs or was Financial Affairs Minister a few weeks back at his work. He even gave my Father his card that he has. Anyway, according to him Modi's plan is pressure Pakistan so much that it will cause Pakistan to attack India and return India will break Pakistan and incorporate part of her territory in some manner. In other words completely neutralize Pakistan. In another scenario is that if Modi or India is not able to do this and Pakistan becomes a stable economic powerhouse due CPEC, and few other projects. Then this will cause preasure on India to solve the Kashmir issue through diplomatic means and if they that occurs then more regions within India could strive for Independence. Overall, in his opinion RAW is currently tracking about 10 to 12 regions in India that could want independence....

LMFAO. This is like a perfectly healthy person planning on stealing the organs of a man riddled with cancer and AIDS. Most Indians want absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan. And incorporating parts of a soon to be failed state and importing all its problems is definitely not on the to do list. Right now, Pakistan couldnt give parts of it away to anyone, least of all India.

This is exactly the kind of India related paranoia that makes Pakistan the mess it is. So in a sort of a way, I guess India is to blame.

 

[siddx]

Zia Ul Haq is the primary reason Pakistan is a mess. From the moment he declared martial law and murdered Butto after a sham of a trial he spent the next decade fucking up Pakistan's future by pushing it towards extremism and intolerance. Not to mention getting involved in Afghanistan and letting guns and drugs pour across the border into Pakistan.

 

[crimzonflame]

LMFAO. This is like a perfectly healthy person planning on stealing the organs of a man riddled with cancer and AIDS. Most Indians want absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan. And incorporating parts of a soon to be failed state and importing all its problems is definitely not on the to do list. Right now, Pakistan couldnt give parts of it away to anyone, least of all India.

This is exactly the kind of India related paranoia that makes Pakistan the mess it is. So in a sort of a way, I guess India is to blame.

He forgot to mention that his father also works for Nintendo

 

[TheRealTalker]

India and Pakistan still suffer from their own cold war fatigue.

Both countries blame each other for so many things and think if they waste one second of their time not wasting it on pointless arms and crap that the other will invade them, but then the problem is India is larger and has a bigger population and a major head start in development during the British era relative to Pakistan and thus you get Pakistan having to tug along a larger percentage of it's GDP to compete against India in a losing power game.


Pakistan would be better off ignoring all of that, accepting they can't compete in manpower and run off to form an economic bloc with neighboring countries.

 

[MikeMyers]

You guys ever think the countries (including Bangladesh) could reunite, ala Germany?

I honestly can't see it.

 

[victreeb3l]

You guys ever think the countries (including Bangladesh) could reunite, ala Germany?

I honestly can't see it.

It'll never happen and honestly I wouldnt want it to. I'm Bangladeshi and I like the idea of having our own country, despite how fucked up the place is currently. I would like it if the 3 countries could develop better relations and cooperated more going forward. Theres too much shared history to be bickering like this. We should be better friends.

 

[pgtl_10]

India having a no first use nuke policy means nothing really.

 

[MikeMyers]

It'll never happen and honestly I wouldnt want it to. I'm Bangladeshi and I like the idea of having our own country, despite how fucked up the place is currently. I would like it if the 3 countries could develop better relations and cooperated more going forward. Theres too much shared history to be bickering like this. We should be better friends.

Yeah too much corruption really. :/

Crazy to think how small Bangladesh is considering the population.