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[NightmareFarm]

Gambits gave you so much freedom over how you choose other party members to fight without having to hold their hand constantly. You could choose exactly when they heal depending on HP, when they stop using magic depending on MP, exactly when they use items, exactly when they do what move, whether they go for stronger single targetting moves or AoE for multiple enemies. You could create multiple gambit loadouts and choose which one depending on the situation. Not only does it make gameplay less frustrating but it doubles as another progression system of sorts and a very engaging one at that. It looks and feels like you're programming the AI yourself with "if" conditions and the like. And whilst this may seem convoluted, the game only gives you a handful simple gambits at the start and you slowly pick up more and more as you progress through the game.

There are AI settings in other games like Tales of games but you get very few options in comparison. You don't get to control which arte characters do at what condition. besides a general(heal, use strike artes, use magic artes, protect yourself). And there are only a few intervals for health/MP state values, just 25%, 50%, 75% whereas in FFXII it goes by every 10%. The funny thing is the AI for allies has always been one of the weakest parts of that series but this would be completely rectified if they just adopted gambits.

 

[Pejo]

The only thing I can think of is that casual players didn't want to micromanage to the level that Gambits really showed their stuff.

For a FFXI player used to macros, with a bit of background (at the time) into writing code, Gambits were amazing. Going from that to XIII where the game basically plays itself was jarring.

 

[NightmareFarm]

The only thing I can think of is that casual players didn't want to micromanage to the level that Gambits really showed their stuff.

For a FFXI player used to macros, with a bit of background (at the time) into writing code, Gambits were amazing. Going from that to XIII where the game basically plays itself was jarring.

They aren't forced to use it since you can switch characters on the fly.

 

[adamsapple]

Dragon Age: Origins used something very similar. It's a great way to 'simulate' MMORPG style single player RPGs with multiple characters on the field at one time.

 

[Sorcerer]

It was pretty unique at the time; I think anybody blatantly copying it would be accused. Perhaps if it was a small-time indie who came up with it, but Square was the king of console rpg's at the time, so the system would not be copied.

 

[Danjin44]

I don’t want every JRPG have same type of combat system.

 

[AmuroChan]

I don't want games to follow a "standard" template. I want game creators to be constantly challenging themselves to come up with new ideas and new mechanics to bring the medium forward.

 

[TransTrender]

Dragon Age: Origins used something very similar. It's a great way to 'simulate' MMORPG style single player RPGs with multiple characters on the field at one time.

I actually liked this one better than the gambit system, but I still couldn't get it to work and dropped the game because of it.

Same with FFXII

Very glad it's gone.

I have Zodiac Age or whatever, but it's very likely I'll never get around to it in my lifetime.

 

[Azelover]

Oh please..

 

[NightmareFarm]

I don't want games to follow a "standard" template. I want game creators to be constantly challenging themselves to come up with new ideas and new mechanics to bring the medium forward.

I don’t want every JRPG have same type of combat system.

What mechanics for AI are superior to gambits then? You can't beat perfection. Gambits literally gives you the freedom to more or less program AI.

And there are some mechanics which become a universal standard like HP/MP system. Should we get rid of HP/MP standard or perhaps levels as a standard?

 

[NightmareFarm]

It was pretty unique at the time; I think anybody blatantly copying it would be accused. Perhaps if it was a small-time indie who came up with it, but Square was the king of console rpg's at the time, so the system would not be copied.

If that were the case then the developer behind the first JRPG with "HP/MP" and the level mechanic would be very rich with all the lawsuits he would be sending out. Games can borrow mechanics from other games which is why genre standards(and in a wider scale, game standards like save points or fast travel) exist.

 

[Zannegan]

Sounds like a great system, though possibly a lot to dump on players at the start of the game.

What might be interesting would be to have gambit profiles locked to characters' personalities rather than letting players pick the profiles right off the bat. For example, you have the spoiled, selfish, (and possibly addicted) glass cannon mage who pops a full restore potion every time any bar drops below 80%, and the barbarian brute who sees using potions as weak and hence tries to walk off a severed leg.

They wouldn't have to stay that way. Options for tweaking their tendencies could open up over time, either as a reward for levelling them up or even raising relationship status. It would make sense that a character that's gone through a lot with their party leader would trust said leader's judgement.

I dunno, seems like there's a lot of fun to be had with the idea beyond just making it standard (which I agree, it should be).

 

[Danjin44]

What mechanics for AI are superior to gambits then?

That depends entirely on combat system, that gambit system will not work in fast paced combat system or turn based since you the one controlling the characters.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Sounds like a great system, though possibly a lot to dump on players at the start of the game.

What might be interesting would be to have gambit profiles locked to characters' personalities rather than letting players pick the profiles right off the bat. For example, you have the spoiled, selfish, (and possibly addicted) glass cannon mage who pops a full restore potion every time any bar drops below 80%, and the barbarian brute who sees using potions as weak and hence tries to walk off a severed leg.

They wouldn't have to stay that way. Options for tweaking their tendencies could open up over time, either as a reward for levelling them up or even raising relationship status. It would make sense that a character that's gone through a lot with their party leader would trust said leader's judgement.

I dunno, seems like there's a lot of fun to be had with the idea beyond just making it standard (which I agree, it should be).

It didn't feel like a lot when I started 12 because it gives you only a few at the start and you find more and more throughout the game like equipment.

 

[Crayon]

I would like to see something like that a little more often.

God ff12 is so good. That's one of those games I could sit down and play any time... If I had 100 hours to kill.

 

[NightmareFarm]

That depends entirely on combat system, that gambit system will not work in fast paced combat system or turn based since you the one controlling the characters.

Why wouldn't it work with a fast paced combat system where you can only control one character at a time?

 

[KàIRóS]

I've never liked them, it always felt like the game was playing itself with barely any input from me and that's not my idea of fun.

I understand the people that praise the gambit system as a programming feat but it ultimately made combat boring.

 

[NightmareFarm]

I've never liked them, it always felt like the game was playing itself with barely any input from me and that's not my idea of fun.

I understand the people that praise the gambit system as a programming feat but it ultimately made combat boring.

You aren't forced to use it.

 

[Crayon]

I've never liked them, it always felt like the game was playing itself with barely any input from me and that's not my idea of fun.

I understand the people that praise the gambit system as a programming feat but it ultimately made combat boring.

I went for a run once while my party grinded in the mines.

 

[Danjin44]

Why wouldn't it work with a fast paced combat system where you can only control one character at a time?

Because the combat system in FFXII is much closer to offline MMO, I can see this system would work in games like Xenoblade 1-2 since you couldn't switch between characters in those games but that has changed in Xenoblade 3.

 

[Sorcerer]

If that were the case then the developer behind the first JRPG with "HP/MP" and the level mechanic would be very rich with all the lawsuits he would be sending out. Games can borrow mechanics from other games which is why genre standards(and in a wider scale, game standards like save points or fast travel) exist.

You make a good point. I didn't mean it in terms of lawsuits and such. I'm sure Square/Enix would have done nothing, but Square's fans would certainly have pointed it out if someone did copy it so soon afterward. Better to stick with traditonal mechanics than try to copy a new one, if you can't think of something original on your own.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Because the combat system in FFXII is much closer to offline MMO, I can see this system would work in games like Xenoblade 1-2 since you couldn't switch between characters in those games but that has changed in Xenoblade 3.

I could see it working in a Tales of game, which would greatly benefit it with how restrictive and problematic the AI feels in those games.

 

[NightmareFarm]

You make a good point. I didn't mean it in terms of lawsuits and such. I'm sure Square/Enix would have done nothing, but Square's fans would certainly have pointed it out if someone did copy it so soon afterward. Better to stick with traditonal mechanics than try to copy a new one, if you can't think of something original on your own.

>Better to stick with traditonal mechanics than try to copy a new one, if you can't think of something original on your own.

How did they become "traditional"?

 

[Sorcerer]

>Better to stick with traditonal mechanics than try to copy a new one, if you can't think of something original on your own.

How did they become "traditional"?

Just your basic level up mechanics we have seen time and time again. Sorry if I am not making sense.

 

[Danjin44]

I could see it working in a Tales of game, which would greatly benefit it with how restrictive and problematic the AI feels in those games.

Yeah Tales games AI can be frustrating, especially on harder difficulty.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Just your basic level up mechanics we have seen time and time again. Sorry if I am not making sense.

But how did they get to the point where they become "traditional"?

It must have originated somewhere and then it became a standard after being borrowed by several other games. The same could have applied to FF12, is my point.

 

[Brigandier]

I went for a run once while my party grinded in the mines.

I did similar things on the skeletons in the marshlands can't remember the name of the zone

 

[Danjin44]

Then need to balance it for action combat systems, because I dont want them to be too strong that would be win the battle for me but same time I dont want to be frustrating because they going right in front of enemies attack and die. (this happened too many time in Tales of Arise)

 

[Crayon]

Off topic but since it's been mentioned, I could not believe there was no way to direct your party members in xbc. Literally. I only played it for as long as I did thinking I had to be missing it. Then I asked here and dropped the game completely. So to coordinate two attacks, I have to just hope a party member does what I want them to? Sorry, that's insane. Now if there is some explicit mechanic to make up for that, I could try again.

 

[NightmareFarm]

Then need to balance it for action combat systems, because I dont want them to be too strong that would be win the battle for me but same time I dont want to be frustrating because they going right in front of enemies attack and die. (this happened too many time in Tales of Arise)

The game can be balanced around levels, enemy aggressiveness and damage, health of enemies with a fully customisable AI system like gambits in the game. Arise bosses already had a copious amount of health anyway.

 

[bender]

I don’t want every JRPG have same type of combat system.

That just means you didn't play Shadow Hearts. Every game needs a judgement ring and penis monsters.

 

[EDMIX]

I don’t want every JRPG have same type of combat system.

Same.

I love FFXII combat system and same with FFV (hate their stories with a passion though) lol

 

[Sorcerer]

But how did they get to the point where they become "traditional"?

It must have originated somewhere and then it became a standard after being borrowed by several other games. The same could have applied to FF12, is my point.

100%. Thinking back to how obsessed I was with rpg's in the Super Nintendo, early Playstation era (pre FF7) and consuming so many translated roms. The evolution seemed incredibly slow. Phantasy Star 1-4 and others in the series really did not change it's systems much across all of the games at all. Minor steps. So, I guess when I played something like 12 it did seem like something unique, but it really was just an evolution of what came before done really well, a way to automate the characters to your exact liking.

 

[Naked Lunch]

FFXII in general should have become the standard of JRPGs.
Too many whiny FF7 fanboys out there though.

Ill just settle for replaying XII for the 10th time...with a side of Vagrant Story.

 

[Kataploom]

Idk I rather do each of my moved myself rather than leaving it to an AI or any other automation, hate auto combat actually... I even forgot you could leave your persona 5 characters on auto if it wasn't for a friends of mine complaining about stupid party AI lol

 

[Northeastmonk]

I liked XII because it reminded me of XI. I didn’t utilize gambits beyond healing when I played it on PS2. Cast berserk and went to town. It’s optional. Seeing the monsters on the map, engaging in ATB combat, and etc. One thing I didn’t try was playing it out to its full potential. I beat it and etc. it’s like people who get Squall’s Lionheart on Disc 1. I must have not care after I beat the game to ever so that. I do plan to replay XII on Steam Deck after the summer slam of games come out.

It’s probably too automated to put in every game. Sure it’s a QoL anymore. Players should have some assistance if they’re expected to grind for hours.

 

[Nankatsu]

Thank God they didn't. Least favourite FF I ever played.

 

[Elitro]

Dragon Age: Origins used something very similar. It's a great way to 'simulate' MMORPG style single player RPGs with multiple characters on the field at one time.

Yeah, and i thought it was a great system. Surprised they didn't keep this as a feature for other games. Would have loved to see this in ff14 as well.
They could even have these similar to github actions, where people could code their AI scripts and share them for free, so that casuals could install them for convenience sake. Would also make for some very entertaining youtube videos with some crazy AI behaviors lol.

 

[Moonjt9]

I hated that system and it single handedly made me drop ff12. To me it’s the beginning of the downfall of final fantasy being an actual good jrpg like it was in the past. Awful combat system.

 

[Myths]

Top tier FF, it helped with some basic actions that I shouldn’t need to waste any motor skill executing.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I don't want games to follow a "standard" template. I want game creators to be constantly challenging themselves to come up with new ideas and new mechanics to bring the medium forward.

Yeah, how is that working for jRPGs? It’s a genre’s staple to come with obtuse and annoying game systems that serve no purpose whatsoever.

 

[Neff]

it's the kind of thing FFXIII was missing and would have really benefitted from. Nice that they're allegedly toying with implementing it in Rebirth, though.

 

[AmuroChan]

Yeah, how is that working for jRPGs? It’s a genre’s staple to come with obtuse and annoying game systems that serve no purpose whatsoever.

I don't know how they're working for others, but having been a JRPG fan for 30+ years, I always enjoy learning new combat systems and mechanics, however weird and obtuse some of them may be.

 

[diffusionx]

FFXII is boring and the gambits are busywork used to paper over the flaws and boredom that are in the battle system. I played FFX and XII back to back last year and was surprised at how much more fun X was to play, in every way.

 

[Quartermaster]

Played XII Zodiac all night experimenting with this at X4 speed. Realized later I had created the perfect tank, healer, archer, combo gambit. Blazed through the Pharos tower easily, where I had difficulty before just manually inputing attacks. Even better for autopilot grinding with one hand on movement.

 

[_Ex_]

FFXII has an outstanding battle system. Unfortunately in developing said battle system, Square Enix over-estimated the intelligence of the average gamer. Programming the simple macros was too much brain work for your average player.