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Interesting John Kerry Video

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Gruco

Banned
-jinx- said:
The bottom line is that the "flip flop" attack on Kerry is a load of ad hominem crap which has utterly no relevance to his ability to lead the country.
It is absolutely not ad hominem. Criticizing a leader's integrity or resolve does bear relevance to their fitness to hold the country's highest office. It's not like anyone is saying, "John Kerry is a flip-flopper, therefore I think his health care plan won't work." There are a whole lot of problems with the flip-flop line. Ad hominem isn't one of them.
Second, the notion that a politician should not change his or her opinion over time is patently ridiculous.
I have no problem with someone changing their opinion with something "over time." But dramatic changes in a few months that happen to coincide with shift in who you're appealing to is rather disheartening.
So, consider the context carefully: In 2002, the American public -- fed by a steady stream of misinformation and rhetoric from the Bush Administration -- had fallen for the claim that Iraq was somehow a threat to the United States and supported the idea of war. What else is Kerry going to do BUT vote for a resolution giving the President power to make that choice?
This is a bit of a chicken/egg point, but I think one of the biggest reasons the situation existed to begin with was because there wasn't enough skepticism from either the media or opposition party. And there's a big difference between casting a vote (which I never found a convincing argument) and going on TV to drum up support. Kerry sure wasn't helping....

That said, after watching that again, I don't think the clips are as bad as I first thought. For example, one of his comments was "Do I think it can be done diplomatically? YES. Do we need to go down that route? YES." How is that a problem at all? And as border says, there's probably some more complex points or context that short clips deliberately do not account for. So I have quite a number of problems with what Kerry said, but it's not as utterly horrible as my first gut reaction was. Maybe that ominous music is more persuasive than I give it credit for!

This also opens the door for a similar Bush mind-changing video, which is just begging to be made.

Also I need to read the Daily Howler more often.
 

Lathentar

Looking for Pants
Ecrofirt said:
I'm a registered republican, but I'll tell you right now that I'm not fond of Bush.

I'm certainly not fond of Kerry, either. He comes off as a wishy-washy sleazebag to me.

I have no idea who I'll be supporting with the upcoming election.

I'm almost exactly the same as you. While I'd more than likely just vote Republican, Bush isn't exactly doing much that resembles a Republican.
 
Gruco said:
This also opens the door for a similar Bush mind-changing video, which is just begging to be made.

Somebody already mentioned the Governor Bush versus President Bush debate The Daily Show had, which I remember as quite entertaining. However, I've had jack-all luck finding a copy online, so I don't remember many details.
 

Xenon

Member
sp1.jpg

"He'll flip ya. He'll flip ya for real"
 

Socreges

Banned
-jinx- said:
First, addressing the specifics of these claims against Kerry: Saying that "we retain the right to act unilaterally" is NOT the same as "I think we should act unilaterally." The former is a statement of ability, and the latter is a statement of opinion. There is NO contradiction between asserting that our nation has the ability to act unilaterally if necessary, and also asserting that this particular act of aggression against Iraq was not necessary.
The problem, -jinx-, is that Kerry has continually criticized Bush for going to war with Iraq without the UN. Yet he said:

"If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's existing order then he will have invited enforcement even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act." (9/6/02)

"The president always reserves the right to act unilaterally to protect the interests of this country." (9/17/02)

That last one, of course, is an acknowledgement, rather than an opinion. But is clearly meant to condone a particular option that Bush had. Unless he continued to say "However, he should not in this case", which he wouldn't have, given what he said 11 days earlier, then I consider that contradictory.
 

Santo

Junior Member
ONVENTIONAL WARFARE
Issue of 2004-08-09 and 16

There’s a case to be made that it hardly matters how eloquent or effective John Kerry was at the Democratic National Convention last week. What matters infinitely more is that George W. Bush is the worst President the country has endured since Richard Nixon, and even mediocrity would be an improvement. Indeed, if one regards the Bush Administration’s sins of governance—its distortion of intelligence in a time of crisis, its grotesque indulgence of the rich at the expense of the rest, its arrogant dissolution of American prestige and influence abroad, its heedless squandering of the world’s resources—as worse than the third-rate burglary and second-rate coverup of thirty years ago, then President Bush is in a league only with the likes of Harding, Fillmore, Pierce, and Buchanan.

For the most part, however, the speakers at the Democratic National Convention refrained from making that case. In the lingo of the week, “Bush-bashing”—at least, for those speakers featured in the shamefully narrow sliver of prime time on offer from the networks—was forbidden. “Making the sale,” selling Kerry to the electorate, was the goal of nearly every pronouncement from the stage. In the rehearsal rooms of Boston’s Fleet Center, Party scriveners “scrubbed” speeches of any rhetoric that risked alienating those voters who remain, thirteen weeks from Election Day, undecided. The bookstores around town were well stocked with bilious volumes like “The Bush-Hater’s Handbook,” “The I Hate George W. Bush Reader,” “The Lies of George W. Bush,” but only hints of such outrage sneaked past the Party apparatchiks.

Kerry and his team had reasons for controlling the tone of the Convention and stifling any shrill indulgences. To condescend to Bush, to affect a collective sneer, would be a gift to the Republicans; and—a lesson learned from Conventions past—it is easier to decry divisiveness when you aren’t displaying it. The event’s language was designed to bolster Kerry and to criticize Bush only by way of invidious comparison. (Not that the comparisons and references were terribly subtle. No one needed an Enigma machine to figure out why Jimmy Carter was recalling his days aboard a nuclear submarine or why Bill Clinton was now cheerfully discussing the fact that he, just like a certain President and Vice-President, had chosen not to serve in Vietnam while a certain Democratic contender had volunteered.) The attempt to establish authenticity is a universal in politics—Yitzhak Rabin had it, Shimon Peres didn’t; Eisenhower had it, Stevenson didn’t—and it has long been a particular burden for Democrats, who, since 1968, have routinely been cast, by their opponents, as the party of white-wine-swilling weaklings.

Kerry’s authenticity, the Democratic strategists have agreed, resides in the valor of his youth. And there was something undeniably effective in the way the Convention was militarized, with all those retired generals and comrades-in-arms on the stage to testify to his bravery under fire. Certainly it cast a harsh light on Bush—not only on the President’s soft berth and spotty attendance in the National Guard but also on his flight-suit swagger, the calls to “bring ’em on.” The greatest similarity between the first J.F.K. and the current one lies not in their Ivy privilege or clambake geography but, rather, in the fact that both built a Presidential campaign narrative from acts of Navy heroism. Still, the Convention’s display of martial virtue was a little worrying, too: one wonders if future Democrats, in this age of a volunteer, professional Army, will be able to challenge a conservative Republican without the moral credential of three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star, and a Bronze Star.

It takes little from Kerry’s performance to recall just how closely his speech conformed to the tactics and tropes of other acceptance speeches, Democratic and Republican, of the past several decades. Nearly all of them reach into the same spice rack of metaphor, image, and avowal. There is the affirmation that one’s party is the party of uniters, not dividers; there are the paeans to the vanquished fellow-candidates; there is the moment of calibrated self-deprecation (“I’ll try to hold my charisma in check,” Bush, 1988; “I know I won’t always be the most exciting politician,” Gore, 2000); there are the bold preferences (“I hate war, I love peace,” Bush, 1988); there are the cadenced attempts to draw in the delegates (“Can you imagine?” “Yes!” “Will we let them . . . ?” “No!”); there are the invocations of small boys—full of hope and dreams, haunted by early tragedy, comforted by heroic mothers—who turn out to be none other than the nominee (the man from Hope was exceptionally good at this in 1992, but the ne plus ultra of cornball narcissism was Nixon in 1968); and, finally, there are more rhetorical bridges than in all of Venice, more rhetorical mornings than at a breakfast-all-day coffee shop. To read these speeches is to encounter not only the expectable baloney but a form as unwavering as Hopi wedding rites or the Mourner’s Kaddish. They are not called convention speeches for nothing. These are rituals designed less to broadcast detailed policy than to armor the speaker against the onslaught to come, speeches in which George McGovern waxes muscular about providing the “shield of our strength” to our weaker allies and George W. talks of “learning to protect the natural world around us” and changing “the tone of Washington to one of civility and respect.” Still, conventions, like all rituals, reveal more than they seem to.

Last week, Kerry proved right those who said that in the homestretch he can be vigorously direct, even combative. As a performer, he could never match Clinton’s conversational connection or Barack Obama’s uncanny marriage of masterly intimacy and enlivened syntax (“The audacity of hope!”). A spirited version of the traditional big-hall delivery—the half-shouted singsong—is about the best Kerry can do. But the decision to have the other prime-time speakers hold off on the Bush-bashing and testify to his biographical authenticity—his bravery, his compassion, his kindness to household pets—made Kerry’s speech that much more forceful. The cautious scrubbing, it emerged, was all in the service of the one speaker who really mattered.

“I will restore trust and credibility to the White House,” Kerry said. “I will be a Commander-in-Chief who will never mislead us into war. I will have a Vice-President who will not conduct secret meetings with polluters to rewrite our environmental laws. . . . I want an America that relies on its ingenuity and innovation—not the Saudi royal family.” Not that he was mentioning any names, mind you. After deploying these depth charges throughout the speech, Kerry kept a straight face as he delivered the time-honored request that his opponent engage in a high-minded campaign of “big ideas, not small-minded attacks.”

In fact, the speech was a signal that the coming election will itself be a kind of war from which neither side is likely to flinch. Soon a new book will head for the shelves, there to do battle with “The Bush-Hater’s Handbook.” It is called “Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry.” The publisher is Regnery, which had a best-seller not long ago with a volume alleging that the Clintons hung prophylactics from the branches of the White House Christmas tree.

— David Remnick, The New Yorker
 
Diablos said:
No, don't vote for Nader or you will no doubt see Bush in office for another four years.
A vote for Nader is a vote against acceptance of "A vote for Nader is a vote for Bush." styles of thought.
 

Diablos

Member
border said:
A vote for Jinx is a vote for Bush!
Haha.

Joshua: No dode, no. Nader people would most likely vote for Kerry before Bush. Kerry would be ahead an extra 3 or 4% if you dipshits would stop supporting Nader. That advance would be enough to ensure a victory for Kerry, which may not be all that appealing to you, but shit, it's better than having to listen to Dubya for another four years.

Nader's cool, but he'll never win. Give it up.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Socreges said:
The problem, -jinx-, is that Kerry has continually criticized Bush for going to war with Iraq without the UN. Yet he said:

"If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's existing order then he will have invited enforcement even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act." (9/6/02)

"The president always reserves the right to act unilaterally to protect the interests of this country." (9/17/02)

That last one, of course, is an acknowledgement, rather than an opinion. But is clearly meant to condone a particular option that Bush had. Unless he continued to say "However, he should not in this case", which he wouldn't have, given what he said 11 days earlier, then I consider that contradictory.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the "international community's existing order" for inspectors? Didn't we decide to go to war saying "to hell with inspections"?
 

Socreges

Banned
Yes, that was the "order", I'm pretty sure. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he mostly uncooperative? Like, not allowing them to investigate in certain areas?
 

Dilbert

Member
Gruco said:
It is absolutely not ad hominem. Criticizing a leader's integrity or resolve does bear relevance to their fitness to hold the country's highest office. It's not like anyone is saying, "John Kerry is a flip-flopper, therefore I think his health care plan won't work." There are a whole lot of problems with the flip-flop line. Ad hominem isn't one of them.
It IS ad hominem when Kerry is being attacked for being a "flip-flopper" when a change of opinion has NOTHING TO DO with his integrity or resolve. (And, oh yeah, it's arguable whether or not his opinion really HAS changed.) It is also ad hominem when it is being used to wrongly impugn his image as a response to his stand on issues, rather than addressing his charges directly. Why is it that the right can throw around a constant stream of simplistic (and wrong) descriptives at Kerry without ever being called on the carpet for it? "Flip-flopper." "Soft on terror." "Liberal." (Since when is "liberal" a bad thing?)

If you think that Kerry has changed his position on the war over the past few months, I can't see why you'd be surprised -- the situation in Iraq has changed significantly over the past few months. Judging by recent polls, many Americans have ALSO changed their minds about how the war is going as well -- should we call THEM "flip-floppers" who "can't stay the course" as well?
 

Socreges

Banned
Not just any Liberal, tho. A Massachusetts Liberal!

Someone please explain why the Republicans have been peddling that term so often. Is it because that's a predominantly conservative state (as if that might matter)?
 

Dilbert

Member
Socreges said:
The problem, -jinx-, is that Kerry has continually criticized Bush for going to war with Iraq without the UN. Yet he said:

"If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's existing order then he will have invited enforcement even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act." (9/6/02)

"The president always reserves the right to act unilaterally to protect the interests of this country." (9/17/02)

That last one, of course, is an acknowledgement, rather than an opinion. But is clearly meant to condone a particular option that Bush had. Unless he continued to say "However, he should not in this case", which he wouldn't have, given what he said 11 days earlier, then I consider that contradictory.
With all due respect -- you are reading it wrong, since it's NOT contradictory. A contradiction is when you make two statements which cannot both be simultaneously true. Consider the following two statements: A = "The president always reserves the right to act unilaterally to protect the interests of this country" and B = "Going to war unilaterally in Iraq is wrong." Why is it logically inconsistent that Kerry could believe both A and B? And why is it necessary for him to always say B whenever he says A?

Look, there is a good point lurking under the surface of your argument, and you're both correct to make it and naive to make it. The Democrats had a chance to push back against Bush when he started the drumbeat for war, to demand proof that Saddam was an imminent threat AND that this was legitimately related to the so-called "war on terror," and they completely fucked up and backed down. Bush and friends had them outflanked -- by controlling the public debate and the rhetoric, they had gone straight to the people to somehow make a connection between Iraq and 9/11 in their minds, as ludicrous as it might have seemed under the right kind of scrutiny. It would have taken real guts to stand up and do the right thing, but the Democrats (and some Republicans too) looked at the poll numbers and decided that staying elected was more important than fighting back.

So, the real reason that Kerry keeps complaining that we didn't get UN support for the invasion of Iraq is because -- even now! -- he isn't willing to step up and say, "Invading Iraq was a complete and utter mistake, and Bush lied to our faces about the reasons for doing it." In fact, NO ONE seems to be willing to do it. Unfortunately, as much as it needs to be said, politics simply doesn't work that way. Instead, what Kerry CAN say "within the lines," as it were, is that Bush's actions were so clearly out of bounds that even the UN -- who had existing sanctions against Hussein -- didn't support what we did. But the whole issue is tangential at best to the REAL issue -- why the hell were we suddenly conflating "Iraq" with "war on terror" to begin with?
 

FightyF

Banned
So, the real reason that Kerry keeps complaining that we didn't get UN support for the invasion of Iraq is because -- even now! -- he isn't willing to step up and say, "Invading Iraq was a complete and utter mistake, and Bush lied to our faces about the reasons for doing it." In fact, NO ONE seems to be willing to do it.

If this video is used by the Republicans to hurt Kerry, I think it would be a good excuse to go on a tirade against Bush on this issue. It seems that the whole "flip-flop" tag is based on this issue alone, an issue that Bush has shown complete incompetance to begin with.
 
No political scholar, but was bush really lying if he recieved information from multiple sources about WMD's and acted on it?

Along those same lines it was no secret that we were going after Iraq, would it have been impossible for Hussein to have hidden any evidence?

Again I'm no scholar, but I feel both are valid questions.
 
Yea, sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread, was just reading earlier where people were saying bush lied to the american people

another thread, another time
 

Socreges

Banned
-jinx- said:
With all due respect -- you are reading it wrong, since it's NOT contradictory. A contradiction is when you make two statements which cannot both be simultaneously true. Consider the following two statements: A = "The president always reserves the right to act unilaterally to protect the interests of this country" and B = "Going to war unilaterally in Iraq is wrong." Why is it logically inconsistent that Kerry could believe both A and B? And why is it necessary for him to always say B whenever he says A?
Yes, one is a statement and one is an opinion. Taken apart, and free of any implications or prerequisites, they do not contradict each other. I understand that. But it's not a matter of simply reading each quote word for word and seeing if there's an inherent contradiction. What I'm addressing is WHY he said it. Statements are made for a reason. Considering that several days prior he had condoned unilateral action on Iraq "if Saddam does not bend" (which I don't think he truly did), I think that quote IS part of a larger hypocrisy.

What I'm trying to say is, if the Kerry administration was in power from 2000-2004, do we have anything to show that he wouldn't have also invaded Iraq?

Unless someone else can provide a reason, I think it comes down to: Was the intelligence just from the CIA? Or from Bush?
 

Gruco

Banned
-jinx- said:
It IS ad hominem when Kerry is being attacked for being a "flip-flopper" when a change of opinion has NOTHING TO DO with his integrity or resolve. (And, oh yeah, it's arguable whether or not his opinion really HAS changed.)
That sounds like either a faulty premise or maybe an argument of ignorance (since neither side can definitely know what going through Kerry's head), but still not ad hominem.

It is also ad hominem when it is being used to wrongly impugn his image as a response to his stand on issues, rather than addressing his charges directly.
Agreed, but that's not really what I see as happening - or at least not the central issue to an ad like this.

Why is it that the right can throw around a constant stream of simplistic (and wrong) descriptives at Kerry without ever being called on the carpet for it?
While we're on the logical fallacy subject, this looks like a bit of a straw man to me. I don't think I've seen anyone actually maintain that disingenuous or false attacks shouldn't be called.

"Flip-flopper." "Soft on terror." "Liberal." (Since when is "liberal" a bad thing?)
Dunno. Maybe has something to do with Clinton's centrist shift. Or maybe it gives people the impression of hippies! Whatever the reason, I don't understand why there's as big of a gap as there is between people calling themelves libs vs conservatives....

If you think that Kerry has changed his position on the war over the past few months, I can't see why you'd be surprised -- the situation in Iraq has changed significantly over the past few months.
Well, if Kerry's position was unambiguously "After learning that the urgency of the threat was overhyped I realize that the war in Iraq was a mistake and I kinda regret going on TV shows to offer Karl's favorite talking points" I could understand. But as you pretty well say yourself in the response to Socreges, a lot of this is political posturing stemming from the failure to act as a rational counterweight during the disgraceful prewar PR campaign. It would be "naive" not to move in the directions of the popular tides, essentialy?

Good point made earlier on this...
human5892 said:
I have no doubt that Kerry has waffled on some issues, and had a geniune change of heart on others. But I don't think he has committed any unusual atrocity -- just politics as usual.
In this context, I can understand what went on, but still thing much of it was the wrong thing to do, and still loose respect for Kerry

One thing I wonder is if there are any old clips of Kerry saying "more time, too soon" in the time before the war. That would make a world of difference.

Socreges said:
Not just any Liberal, tho. A Massachusetts Liberal!

Someone please explain why the Republicans have been peddling that term so often. Is it because that's a predominantly conservative state (as if that might matter)?

Stirrring up memories of that Dukakis character, I suppose?
 
Diablos said:
Haha.

Joshua: No dode, no. Nader people would most likely vote for Kerry before Bush. Kerry would be ahead an extra 3 or 4% if you dipshits would stop supporting Nader. That advance would be enough to ensure a victory for Kerry, which may not be all that appealing to you, but shit, it's better than having to listen to Dubya for another four years.

Nader's cool, but he'll never win. Give it up.
I'm not even for sure who I'll vote for yet (not Bush, though). But I think diminishing the role of the two party system is a worthwhile cause. And if it's something that we're only allowed to work for when the race isn't close, then it's pretty useless since then the third party can then be safely ignored.

And still, my vote for Anybody But Bush will be inconsequential in Indiana.

homerhendrix said:
No political scholar, but was bush really lying if he recieved information from multiple sources about WMD's and acted on it?
If he purposefully lead people to believe that's the conclusion he was looking for, and cherry-picked the data to support the conclusion he wanted... yes.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
JoshuaJSlone said:
But I think diminishing the role of the two party system is a worthwhile cause. And if it's something that we're only allowed to work for when the race isn't close, then it's pretty useless since then the third party can then be safely ignored.
Yup. And if someone really likes Nader, by all means, they should vote for him. Voting in and of itself is the most important thing. Make your voice heard, and do it as honestly as you can. Even if the candidate doesn't have a shot, it's making a statement, and the only one you can really make without getting into politics yourself. I wanted to slap Kerry for asking Nader to drop out of the race. How ridiculously undemocratic and un-American can you get? If you don't want those votes taken away from you, try harder to keep them.

Some people also like to forget that one of today's two big parties was once a third party startup. The only way to start the process of giving third parties more of a voice is by supporting one. The whole 'wait to support one later' thing is just a self-perpetuating justification for procrastination that the Democrat and Republican parties thrive on.
 

border

Member
The only thing that frustrates me is that for every person that has legitimately thought about Nader and considered the ramifications and significance of casting a vote in his name, there's some ignorant fuck who is doing it just to be different. "I'm such a rebel, I voted for the guy that has no chance!"

Maybe it's fucked up but I can respect casting a "At least he's not Bush" vote for Kerry a lot more than I can respect casting one in the name of making yourself feel more "alternative" and independent.
 

Mumbles

Member
Socreges said:
Yes, that was the "order", I'm pretty sure. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he mostly uncooperative? Like, not allowing them to investigate in certain areas?

Actually, Hussein had begun fully complying with inspectors at the time that Bush declared war. Inspectors were allowed within his "palaces" (which are actually compounds that could easily be used to hide weapons), he destroyed weapons that could fly outside of the range dictated by the peace agreement he signed, even though he (correctly) pointed out that they could only fly out of the proscribed range when they weren't armed.

Bush's argument was, essentially "but he still has weapons on mobile transports! Look, here's a picture of a truck."

And actually, since Kerry has never said that he would not attack Hussein (and appears to be saying that he *would*), I don't see how this is a flip-flop.

And frankly, "flipflopper" is a crappy insult anyway, anyone who doesn't change their opinion when presented with new information is simply an idiot. Frankly, I'd be happier if politicians would change their opinion more, instead of stubbornly clinging to the views that they think their constituents will like.
 

Socreges

Banned
Actually, Hussein had begun fully complying with inspectors at the time that Bush declared war. Inspectors were allowed within his "palaces" (which are actually compounds that could easily be used to hide weapons), he destroyed weapons that could fly outside of the range dictated by the peace agreement he signed, even though he (correctly) pointed out that they could only fly out of the proscribed range when they weren't armed.
Huh.

What about all of those satellite pictures that the administration used to push their cause? Why didn't they just inspect those sites?
 

Mumbles

Member
Socreges said:
Huh.

What about all of those satellite pictures that the administration used to push their cause? Why didn't they just inspect those sites?

They did, in some cases before the pictures were taken. The administration's basic argument was that Hussein had put weapons plants on mobile platforms (trucks and trains), and that he was moving them around so that inspectors wouldn't find them. Of course, these allegations are practically impossible to disprove, which is why many say that the war was a foregone conclusion.
 

Socreges

Banned
Mumbles said:
They did, in some cases before the pictures were taken. The administration's basic argument was that Hussein had put weapons plants on mobile platforms (trucks and trains), and that he was moving them around so that inspectors wouldn't find them. Of course, these allegations are practically impossible to disprove, which is why many say that the war was a foregone conclusion.
Alright. I had never heard about that.
 
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