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Is the 3DS the last hardware with distinct-looking games due to its level of power?

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Yes, I'm talking about that inherent "3DSness" when you look at a screenshot.

First a disclaimer: Yes, I know that different artists create very different-looking games on the same hardware, I understand that. I'm speaking more to common traits across games, right down to obviously a shared resolution but also to an extent their look, polygon density, texture quality, those good old PS1 or blown up 3DS screen jaggies, lighting techniques, etc.

This may be subjective, but in my eyes I saw old console games had their own distinct look based on the hardware, a look that carried between games due to the console's limitations. This became extremely apparent in the 5th gen when PS1's lack of a z-buffer, Saturn's lack of a z-buffer and unique rendering techniques, and N64's different limitations (tiny texture cache, lack of a dedicated sound chip, and limited game storage for starters) gave every game very distinct looks. N64, released later, thankfully had a z-buffer and games could often have huge worlds that the PS1 did not early on. Spyro almost seemed like a proof of concept in that regard, and even then, it looked distinct from N64's work of smooth (perhaps even too smooth) areas created with limited numbers of polygons and a limited texture cache. PS1 textures appeared pixelated, while N64 textures were often compressed and stretched across vast surfaces. Many PS1 games used pre-rendered backgrounds to display a detailed 3D environment, most prominently the Resident Evil and Final Fantasy titles. The technique was rarely used on N64, but perhaps most prominently in its port of Resident Evil 2, which neccesitated many image artifacts to reduce a 2 CD game down to a 64 MB cartridge.

At the very least I'm trying to get games in a similar genre at or very close to their native resolution. All three consoles had multiple render modes, but 320x240 and 320x244 were common.

Additionally, virtually every N64 game had anti-aliasing, though Quake 64 allowed you to turn it off. This helped smooth out jaggies and dithering, but it also created something of a Vaseline filter on the image.

Final Fantasy VII (PS1, 1997)
398481-final-fantasy-vii-playstation-screenshot-battle-in-a-rocky.png

Final-Fantay-VII-town.png


Quest 64 (N64, 1998)
Hardware:

N64_games-quest_64_small.jpg

Emulated:

Quest_64_JPN_stat_up_mp.png




Panzer Dragoon Saga (Saturn, 1998):
Seemingly hardware:

saga1.jpg

saga3.jpg

About a million examples can be shown with different showpieces like Wave Race 64, the aforementioned Spyro for PS1, and Nights...Into Dreams for the Sega Saturn, but I wanted to get right to the 3DS.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that technically the 3DS has to render twice for each eye in 3D mode, leading to a 800x240 resolution. Regardless it is 400x240 for each eye and in 2D mode. So these screens are in the otherwise native rendering resolution of 400x240 with the top screen's unusual 5:3 ratio:


Resident Evil: Revelations (2012)
scr_29_TOP_LEFT.png


The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D (2015)
large.jpg

u8ki7.jpg


Xenoblade Chronicles 3D (2015, New 3DS only)
3DS_XBC3D_032015_SCRNs_05.jpg

030.jpg

N3DS_XenobladeChronicles3D_06_enGB.bmp


I'm aware I used two ports here, but Majora's Mask 3D used loads of new textures and geometry to meet modern standards while Xenoblade Chronicles 3D had to reduce texture quality in places to run.

Revelations is the obvious standout on the OG 3DS graphically, but these 3DS games all seem to have a certain look due to the limitations of the device that you don't seem to find in more modern, PC-like consoles. Xenoblade Chronicles X looks fantastic, for example, but I could have seen it running as a very high-end PS3 or 360 game, whether or not that'd be possible with the lower amount of total RAM (albeit clocked higher) but stronger CPU. Even with the different limitations of those platforms, games seemed to scale quite well at that point. I feel there is some weird form of diminishing returns where we are effectively seeing diminishing limitations causing games released on different platforms to lose their distinct look. Exclusives are very important for Sony and Nintendo's business, but the limitations of the hardware they're on no longer seems to colour the game's progression, just look at Breath of the Wild, which looks like it could also have worked on last gen's HD twins as well as scaled up as a cross-gen game in my eyes. Fantastic looking game, but of a new era where platform limitations no longer give every game (or nearly every game) on that platform a distinct look.

What say you, GAF?
 

Servbot24

Banned
Sure, I suppose, in the sense that every gen is then end of a graphical era. In 20 years there may be indie games using "retro PS3-style" graphics.
 
It seems like it will be. Kinda sad in a way. I love the "3DSNess" alot and will miss it. Alot of HD games start looking to samey in a way.

Edit: ^^^But I hope indies do "retro 3DS inspired graphics" later on.
 

Slaythe

Member
I hope so.

I'd rather take artistic decisions (2D pixel art, SD 3D, stylized proportions) over pixel vomit.

Majora's mask look fantastic. I wouldn't say it looks limited. Somehow.

But Xenoblade ? This is vomit.
 

Xux

Member
Probably. I honestly really love the lo-fi look of the 3DS with Majora's Mask and Triple Deluxe having this wonderful "video game-y" aesthetic that kinda disappears with AA and stuff.
 

WillyFive

Member
I get what you mean, but the 360 and PS3 also have their own distinct look too (screen-tearing, texture pop-in, no AA ever); and the PS4 and XBone have their distinct look too (lots of detail but everything has what seems like bile ear or animorphic filtering). However it is true that these looks are endemic to their generation rather than a specific console itself.
 

Peterthumpa

Member
Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon is by far the best looking game on the system, specially with the 3D disabled as it adds 2xMSAA to the final image output. Amazingly well done, unbelievable lighting, artistically amazing and better looking than most Vita games (besides Killzone and Tearaway, basically).

There's nothing "3DSness" about it, so I'm not sure if generalizing is correct. Same applies to the latest Kirby games and some Mario games to a lesser extent.
 

Astral Dog

Member
I get what you mean but i dont see how 3DS look unique, some looked ok but its time to move on.

Maybe if this was about the original DS
 

Opa-Pa

Member
I get what you mean but i dont see how 3DS look unique, some looked ok but its time to move on.

Maybe if this was about the original DS

Yeah same. I love the 3DS but honestly the only distinctive thing it has visually in all its games is aliasing.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I hope so.

I'd rather take artistic decisions (2D pixel art, SD 3D, stylized proportions) over pixel vomit.

Majora's mask look fantastic. I wouldn't say it looks limited. Somehow.

But Xenoblade ? This is vomit.

Xenoblade is a massive game designed for a large 640x480 screen or to be stretched on an HDTV. It looks great imo but the pixelation is no surprise, given the 3DS' resolution. Majora's Mask didn't have that same scale or fidelity that had to be brought to 3DS, instead as an N64 game the devs increased it with new textures and geometry, while also giving a 80 pixel row horizontal resolution boost.

Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon is by far the best looking game on the system, specially with the 3D disabled as it adds 2xMSAA to the final image output. Amazingly well done, unbelievable lighting, artistically amazing and better looking than most Vita games (besides Killzone and Tearaway, basically).

There's nothing "3DSness" about it, so I'm not sure if generalizing is correct. Same applies to the latest Kirby games and some Mario games to a lesser extent.

Got to really disagree here, as far as I can tell Resident Evil: Revelations wins from a fidelity standpoint hands down, followed by its predecessor proof of concept: Resident Evil: The Mercenaries 3D. I'd say a lot of later games like Majora's Mask and it appears Monster Hunter Stories have Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon beaten for stuff like texture detail as well while also taking place in much larger open environments.

Now, aesthetically, I certainly see your case for Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. Great use of lighting and even stuff like the animation on Luigi is some of the best I've seen anywhere.

I get what you mean, but the 360 and PS3 also have their own distinct look too (screen-tearing, texture pop-in, no AA ever); and the PS4 and XBone have their distinct look too (lots of detail but everything has what seems like bile ear or animorphic filtering). However it is true that these looks are endemic to their generation rather than a specific console itself.

Some PS360 games had AA, I'd even venture most did. Some are v-synced as well, especially early on, here's a good example of both as it shows resolution disparity weirdness between PS3 and 360.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-tales-of-vesperia-showdown-blog-entry

Interesting, by the time of Tales of Zestiria, the PS3 resolution had increased to 1280x720 (same as 360 for Vesperia), though with no AA. Very different levels of ambition but Vesperia must have been a tricky port job to drop below 720p on PS3.

A good list of PS360 resolutions compiled by the good folks at beyond3D here. If PS360 have a distinct look, it's a distinct look they share.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member

A combination of diminishing returns and fact that most major PS3 games used mostly realistic-looking art styles. A "retro PS3-style game" would be sort of like "a game with intentionally bad graphics."

It's kind of like making a game specifically in PS1 style. Not in a "low poly art" sort of way, but rather intentional polygon jitter, no texture filtering, things like that. Making things worse for the sake of making them worse.
 

Peterthumpa

Member
Got to really disagree here, as far as I can tell Resident Evil: Revelations wins from a fidelity standpoint hands down, followed by its predecessor proof of concept: Resident Evil: The Mercenaries 3D. I'd say a lot of later games like Majora's Mask and it appears Monster Hunter Stories have Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon beaten for stuff like texture detail as well while also taking place in much larger open environments.

Now, aesthetically, I certainly see your case for Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon. Great use of lighting and even stuff like the animation on Luigi is some of the best I've seen anywhere.

Indeed, totally forgot about Revelations, but that's it. Texture quality is just one metric though, overall, Dark Moon as a package is one if not the most impressive 3DS titles around.
 
I think it will be the last non-HD gaming system, so yeah. I love my 3DS to death, and I don't expect the NX to have glasses free 3D, so my time with 3DS lately feels like the final days of summer before school starts except that I'm 25.
 
I think I get where you're coming from... working around hardware limitations, as well as inherent resolution limits on the screen, did kind of make the 3ds the last low-res system in its own way, even if it could actually do pretty impressive things with that low-res screen.

What you're getting at is largely true... I just don't know that it particularly needs to be missed. Look at some of those HD renders from rough 3DS emulation... it's a flat improvement across the board.

The wonderful thing is that by now developers in general have had enough time developing games in HD that the industry has moved on from trying to make every game as realistic looking as possible for its own sake. Teams aren't pushing to use the power to create realism just because it's there, instead there's a lot of room to let your game's visual aesthetic stand out if you have a good art team.

I think, going forward, the increase in graphical clarity will actually push the industry into more exciting artistic ventures since they can no longer hide behind that low-res screen. That would far outweigh any nostalgia for the lo-fi look, to me.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
What you're getting at is largely true... I just don't know that it particularly needs to be missed.

I meant it more as an observation than anything. I get the same feeling as you here but about pixel art at this point, even more so because it never looked like that on a CRT.
 

rekameohs

Banned
I think it will be the last non-HD gaming system, so yeah. I love my 3DS to death, and I don't expect the NX to have glasses free 3D, so my time with 3DS lately feels like the final days of summer before school starts except that I'm 25.
Technically, Vita would be the last sub-HD although its pixel density is solid. Or the Wii U GamePad.

On topic, that's a valid point. I feel that PS2 era graphics will get a retro revival in the way that 16 bit consoles have for a while now - I'd lump 3DS in there - just since there can be some charm in the blocky polygons without it distracting like PS1. But I don't really feel that PS3 and beyond will really have a distinctive enough "style" other than "slightly worse than present to have a nostalgia boom.
 

Luigiv

Member
Yeah pretty much. The reason all those systems you listed had a distinct aesthetic is because they had some amount of fixed function hardware that forced devs to all pull from the same pool of techniques on top of any hard limitations in poly count, fillrate and so forth. Once you're hardware moves into the realm of gpgpu shaders, pretty much everything is done in software, meaning the hardware itself has much less of an influence on how the games actually look. The only influence they have left are the hard limits, and those are becoming somewhat of a diminishing return at this point.

So yeah, with the 3DS being the last notable system with fixed function hardware, it's likely to be the last hardware with it's own distinct graphical aesthetic.
 

Kieli

Member
Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon is by far the best looking game on the system, specially with the 3D disabled as it adds 2xMSAA to the final image output. Amazingly well done, unbelievable lighting, artistically amazing and better looking than most Vita games (besides Killzone and Tearaway, basically).

There's nothing "3DSness" about it, so I'm not sure if generalizing is correct. Same applies to the latest Kirby games and some Mario games to a lesser extent.

Image quality on Luigi's Mansion is horrendous. Textures are blurry/low-res and even with 2xMSAA, you still have a lot of fuzzy edges.
 

watershed

Banned
3ds games, or at least some of the best looking ones, tend to have a mix of relatively low poly with nice shader effects. It's an interesting combination that lets you know this is definitely a handheld game but with some nice modern touches.
 

GamerJM

Banned
I feel like the inherent "3DSness," of a game is a lot more vague and ill-defined than the "N64-ness," of a game was (though I also think this is because there was less stylistic variety in that era). Something like Resident Evil Revelations doesn't really look like most of the stuff on the platform, and the same goes for a lot of eShop games. I feel like most first-party Nintendo games on the platform have a pretty defined look that the developers there deliberately chose around the hardware limitations, but that doesn't really hold water for the 3DS in general.
 
3ds games, or at least some of the best looking ones, tend to have a mix of relatively low poly with nice shader effects. It's an interesting combination that lets you know this is definitely a handheld game but with some nice modern touches.

This. Nintendo made a very good decision back then to go with a modern shader set.
Kid Icarus is a nice example for it too.
 
Yup. 3DS has bespoke hardware that doesn't really fit today's modern engines (Unity, Unreal 4), or today's console game interfaces (resolution, dual screen). But it's also by far the best selling system this generation in Japan, and it sold handsomely in the west.

So the 3DS has managed to leverage a great bunch of bespoke games designed from the ground up for the platform. Even games like Puyo Puyo Tetris need to be heavily rethought to work with 3DS's unique setup and 3D effect:

Yup. It's a great example of a bespoke version of a multiplatform game built for specialised hardware. They didn't just shrink down the console image to a smaller upper screen like with the Vita version, instead everything about the game was rethought and redesigned around the dual screens, right down to the most throwaway menus and interface, and it feels really special as a result.

The 3D is phenomenal, as the visuals are actually rendered in 3D space, rather than as fixed 2D layers. Dialogue scenes and the crazy warp fields in Big Bang mode look a treat - there's actual, true 3D depth here, from the star formations in the sky to the way Puyo blocks squish together when they fall.

In a way it's a good reflection of the Japanese market. You've got the combination of 3DS having highly specialised hardware that wouldn't fit the other versions of the game, and the 3DS install base providing motivation for Sonic Team and Sega to put the effort and budget into making that version as good as possible.

Also interesting: the PS Vita version's code includes 3DS shader binaries and other references to the 3DS version.

If you're importing the game I'd probably go PS4/XBO on console and 3DS for the handheld. Apparently the 3DS version also has the most active userbase for online. Like the other versions it also has cross-platform multiplayer, but with the Wii U version. Though I doubt that bolsters the numbers by much!

Even ports of games like Dragon Quest VIII had to be rethought. On other platforms, Square Enix would have likely just ported TOSE's Unity version for iOS and Android. But that wasn't possible on 3DS, so instead they commissioned Cygames to make a distinct version for the format, which has new lighting features (mostly bloom), fuzzy grass in towns and redesigned character models (which are actually lower poly, but done in a respectful way to the original art). It's a balanced port that looks decent and runs smoothly.

3DS's fixed function shaders also seem to define many games, for example, you tend to see the same shiny effects utilised across several games. A Link Between Worlds uses them to great effect in darker dungeons and areas where Link has a light source around him, for example, and Sayonara Umihara Kawase has specular highlights on enemies. That visual flourish was actually removed from the Vita/PC version.

This is also interesting:

Another thing: Nintendo now supports five different ways to program the GPU. The easiest way is DMPGL (OpenGL|ES with Maestro stuff), which is easy to use but has a very high overhead. Then comes GD, a functional equivalent but not compatible to OpenGL and more lightweight, followed by GR, which is even more low level and offers better performance, but requires more in-depth knowledge of the GPU. The next option is NW4C (NintendoWare for CTR), Nintendo's official middleware solution, complete with graphical frontends and stuff. Supposedly easy to use and high performance, but I assume flexibility is limited. And last, but not least, is direct register access, which requires arcane knowledge but offers the best possible performance (and the most ways for stuff to go horribly wrong).
 
There is a certain charm to the lower polygon count and modern shader combination that gives a distinct look to a lot of 3ds games.
 

Golnei

Member
What? It's nothing to do with the models afaik. It's just a clipping issue with the ground.

They aren't clipping, the stumps are the extent of what's been modeled.
At the start of the project, we weren't entirely sure how many bones and joints we'd be able to use in each character model. As it is now, there's a joint at the knees, and then there's nothing below that for the ankles and the feet. This makes it a bit easier to apply animation to models as well. We found out afterward that, with the 3DS, we had more than enough CPU strength available to flesh out the models a bit, add real ankles and so on. We were like "Well, if there's a next time, maybe there'll be more ankles..."
 

beril

Member
The most distinct visual feature of the 3DS is really just the low resolution. While the hardware itself is very unique, and probably the last of it's kind in that regard, it's flexible enough and well designed enough to create very different kinds of graphics, without any obvious bottlenecks that affect appearances in a noticeable way across different games.
 

Davey Cakes

Member
It seems like a lot of games on 3DS embrace the "chibi" look, which I always figure was intentional due to the technical limitations and small screen.
 
The most distinct visual feature of the 3DS is really just the low resolution. While the hardware itself is very unique, and probably the last of it's kind in that regard, it's flexible enough and well designed enough to create very different kinds of graphics, without any obvious bottlenecks that affect appearances in a noticeable way across different games.

I find it crazy how much extra "room" you get when viewing games with good 3D. Like, they are still 240p games, but the doubling of resolution makes it really comfortable to view the image, especially in busier titles like Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate.

The other thing that I've found useful with the resolution is it means developers can't just shrink down their console interfaces into a single display like they do Vita - developers have to rethink what their game interface looks like on handheld, which often leads to great uses of the lower display, or nicely designed icons and pixel art.

I'll miss 3DS as the last device with this sort of resolution and pixel density. (Proported) 720p on NX as a handheld is a great boost, but it'll also mean pixel art will become pixel doubled, tripled or quadrupled, and older virtual console titles will never be displayed at their native resolution again.

Integer scaling works in theory, but in practice I've found it accentuates each individual pixel since making one pixel up out of four/nine/sixteen tiny pixels removes the gaps between pixels which used to exist to accentuate the image. Which results in a noticeably more pixelated image even when the two screens and overall image are the same size.
 
It seems like a lot of games on 3DS embrace the "chibi" look, which I always figure was intentional due to the technical limitations and small screen.

and I hate it so much

Half of why I'm excited for the NX is because it'll be awesome potentially playing future RPGs on the go with character designs that aren't this

Big-Heads-carnival-portrait-masks-w.jpg
 

hodgy100

Member
in the sense that that they look low res and the textures look way too blurry for the amount of detail it pushes in other areas
 

Celine

Member
Sure, I suppose, in the sense that every gen is then end of a graphical era. In 20 years there may be indie games using "retro PS3-style" graphics.
I doubt it, PS3 graphics aren't distinctive or "iconic" as could be PS1 texture mess or Virtua Racing flat polygons.
 

Dingens

Member
at the very least (by the looks of it) the 3ds will be the last system that was actually "designed" with various parts picked exclusively for the sole purpose of gaming. I never got that sense from "newer" systems like the xbone or ps4 (or even the vita). those systems all seem like a "throw big numbers at a wall and see what sticks"-approach to hardware design... They are not consoles but slightly modified pcs/smartphones.
 
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