Yeah, I tried my hand at it, but it wasn't what I was looking for unfortunately. Guess the games themselves were never that popular, though I wonder if it would have more success nowadays.
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Koei is one of the best Japanese game companies in its approach to women
- Thread starter L Thammy
- Start date
Yeah, I tried my hand at it, but it wasn't what I was looking for unfortunately. Guess the games themselves were never that popular, though I wonder if it would have more success nowadays.
I was so, so happy at the point that Romance of the Three Kingdoms allowed me to make a custom female character. I've been a fan of the games (and their other stuff like Nobunaga) for a long time, and I never expected something like that to be put into the game.
Also, I remember seeing Fabstyle at TGS one of the recent years, and wished that it would come out in the West. I still do.
Also, I remember seeing Fabstyle at TGS one of the recent years, and wished that it would come out in the West. I still do.
Dragoon En Regalia
Member
I wouldn't rule out Koei's old eroge as inconsequential. The game mentioned in the first reply came out a year after the original Nobunaga's Ambition; I prefer to think of Danchizuma as one of Yoichi's early CRPG experiments, just as NA was a step towards historical wargaming and one that was very successful for KOEI. Maybe he and Kieko had a really good sex life at that point, too.
Also, it's worth noting that both Erikawas, despite taking a gamble on making games for the Japanese PC market, had the advantage of already running a mid-size chemicals firm inherited by Yoichi, and that level of capital (relative to KOEI's competition) hasn't ever left them. So it was easier for the company to experiment without feeling multiple such games like Angelique would drown them of resources if they flopped. Overall KOEI is a surprisingly humble force in this industry despite its size, influence, and longevity, and that's more surprising when you look at the crazy PR/fashion that Yoichi pulls.
Also, it's worth noting that both Erikawas, despite taking a gamble on making games for the Japanese PC market, had the advantage of already running a mid-size chemicals firm inherited by Yoichi, and that level of capital (relative to KOEI's competition) hasn't ever left them. So it was easier for the company to experiment without feeling multiple such games like Angelique would drown them of resources if they flopped. Overall KOEI is a surprisingly humble force in this industry despite its size, influence, and longevity, and that's more surprising when you look at the crazy PR/fashion that Yoichi pulls.
PdotMichael
Banned
Well, you can pander to more groups than just male computer nerds.
J
JeremyEtcetera
Unconfirmed Member
...and this is his mother
Naotora Ii
She still sounds like your typical anime highschool girl
For the few in this thread who are drive-by posting with pictures like these, have you considered that some design philosophies with Koei may have possibly changed a little when Tecmo entered the picture?
I'm just curious if anyone posting these pictures can actually bring up designs like these pre-Tecmo merger era.
evilromero
Member
Then you don't understand what the seal of quality represents.This is what I think of whenever someone mentions Koei:
That Nintendo Seal of Quality lost a lot of it's value after appearing on this game...
Gosh I love Koei.
Please, if you haven't already, do listen to the latest Three Moves Ahead podcast. It's an hour-long show on the new Nobunaga's Ambition game, but serves as a general love letter to Koei's position (as they put it) as the precursor after which the West's Paradox Studios worked on their ideas for deep-dive historical games.
Please, if you haven't already, do listen to the latest Three Moves Ahead podcast. It's an hour-long show on the new Nobunaga's Ambition game, but serves as a general love letter to Koei's position (as they put it) as the precursor after which the West's Paradox Studios worked on their ideas for deep-dive historical games.
This particular design probably isn't as gratuitous as you think it is. Certainly not as much as Naotora Ii. Maybe someone who has played the recent games can comment on how she's depicted. As far as I know, it's sympathetic but still based on the manipulative beauty thing.
I thought that Koei went into software because the chemical business was slipping. Or did they have a sizable war chest?
One thing I liked in Nobunaga's Ambition: Sphere of Influence is that you can choose the fate of the women in your clan. You can keep them as maidens and arrange marriages between them and your vassals and leaders of other clans. But everytime you overpower another clan and force them into vassalage (instead of wiping them out) they send you their daughters as hostages (like in Game of Thrones) so it isn't worth it. It's much better to get the women in your clan in the field, and they tend to be really good officers too. Imagawa's mom is my fastest officer building roads and infrastructures and this isn't fiction as that woman was known as the "Female Daimyo" at the time.
To Far Away Times
Member
You know for all the shit DOA gets about its treatment of women (and some of it is deserved), I bet that game has more female players than any other non smash bros fighting game.
It was eye opening when I was in a fighting games club and also through Xbox Live.
Sometimes you just want to play as an attractive character. There's plenty of man candy for the ladies too.
It was eye opening when I was in a fighting games club and also through Xbox Live.
Sometimes you just want to play as an attractive character. There's plenty of man candy for the ladies too.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
They've sure come a long way.
Holy damn, I had never seen that.
"Do Dutch Wives Dream of Electric Eels?"
TheSpoiler
Member
Considering Koei actually treats her as an actual character instead of some walking boob magnet, I don't see how posting design flaws negates the work they do on the character.
dakkumauji
Member
well all it seems based of is omg, look at her outfit, they probably don't
BLOODED_hands
Member
Damn that Yukimura with his suit looks fucking sexy.
I agree with the OP and thanks for the good read. I noticed much of their girl characters for their Musou series after the merge with Tecmo, started changing alot visually.
Compared Yue Ying DW 6
To DW 7 Yue Ying
The merger made most or all of their girl characters sexualized i.e., bigger breast, more revealing clothing, and more pretty. I get some characters since they were supposed to be beautiful girls. But Yue Ying was drastically changed since she wasn't ever sexualized before the merger and she was supposedly not beautiful.
I can't comment much on the SW series since I haven't played any of the latest entries. My only issue is visuals though. They are way too sexualized for my liking (even though I do love my boobs and cleavage, sometimes they are too much lol).
I agree with the OP and thanks for the good read. I noticed much of their girl characters for their Musou series after the merge with Tecmo, started changing alot visually.
Compared Yue Ying DW 6
To DW 7 Yue Ying
The merger made most or all of their girl characters sexualized i.e., bigger breast, more revealing clothing, and more pretty. I get some characters since they were supposed to be beautiful girls. But Yue Ying was drastically changed since she wasn't ever sexualized before the merger and she was supposedly not beautiful.
I can't comment much on the SW series since I haven't played any of the latest entries. My only issue is visuals though. They are way too sexualized for my liking (even though I do love my boobs and cleavage, sometimes they are too much lol).
TheSpoiler
Member
Damn that Yukimura with his suit looks fucking sexy.
I agree with the OP and thanks for the good read. I noticed much of their girl characters for their Musou series after the merge with Tecmo, started changing alot visually.
Compared Yue Ying DW 6
To DW 7 Yue Ying
The merger made most or all of their girl characters sexualized i.e., bigger breast, more revealing clothing, and more pretty. I get some characters since they were supposed to be beautiful girls. But Yue Ying was drastically changed since she wasn't ever sexualized before the merger and she was supposedly not beautiful.
I can't comment much on the SW series since I haven't played any of the latest entries. My only issue is visuals though. They are way too sexualized for my liking (even though I do love my boobs and cleavage, sometimes they are too much lol).
She looks way better in 8.
Not that I have anything against people not liking sexualized designs, whether intentional or for fanservice. I just don't think it somehow ruins the character in such a way that they can't be used an example of decent female characters in gaming. (not saying you are saying that)
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
I don't doubt that Tecmo had influence on some of the newer designs, but almost all of the DW/SW cast have been increasingly beautified with every iteration.
This goes for the male characters as well (Liu Bei being a prime example).
Also, the jump in sexiness between DW5 and DW6 Yue Ying is much larger than from DW6 to DW7.
This goes for the male characters as well (Liu Bei being a prime example).
Also, the jump in sexiness between DW5 and DW6 Yue Ying is much larger than from DW6 to DW7.
ShinMaruku
Member
They were always like that with certain characters. Really sad that people just post how the ladies look rather than their actions in the game and then use that to point out how shallow Koei is. It's like they have no concept of irony.
drtomoe123
Member
Great writeup on one of my favorite companies in the gaming world. Thanks OP.
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
Wonderful op, had no idea, thanks for the history lesson!
Cool read. I didn't realize that Koei had been around for so long tbh. It's cool that because of Angelique, they're basically responsible for a whole subgenre
DW4/5 Yue Ying is still the true Yue Ying to me
Now to be fair, DW6 was a weird ass time for the DW series, and not just for the female characters
They've gotten a lot better like with Yue Ying, or even reverted to some of the older stuff. We also got Cai Wenji (purely in terms of design) and Wang Yi (in terms of personality)
Personally I don't think that the female characters have been getting more sexualized than they were before. I feel, maybe one female character will get the fanservice stick in every new main game (like Yue Ying in DW6, or Xingcai's ridiculous outfit in DW8). And some characters just have been stuck with their DW6 redesign them (like Diao Chan who was a lot more restrained in the PS2 games).
But I don't think there's been a dramatic change. I'd even say there's been more a change in males rather than females. Besides Liu Bei, Xiahou Dun got more handsome. There's also been new additions like Guo Jia and Ma Dai (and in general newer additions seem to be edging towards adrogynous males or teens but that's a different topic)
I don't agree that they're all great in terms of personality though. I don't know if it's been more of an intentional push or a side effect of the huge cast (where everyone, not just the females, are becoming really 1-note), but a lot of female characters have been kinda stuck purely as "X character's wife". Not saying that for all characters (Zhu Rong, Xingcai and Wang Yi are all great) but it's happening, even for the veterans like SunShangXiang and Zhenji.
(I didn't mention Cai Wenji; she has potential but Koei have to use her for something first. Also just wanted to say, Bao Sanniang is awful)
DW4/5 Yue Ying is still the true Yue Ying to me
Now to be fair, DW6 was a weird ass time for the DW series, and not just for the female characters
They've gotten a lot better like with Yue Ying, or even reverted to some of the older stuff. We also got Cai Wenji (purely in terms of design) and Wang Yi (in terms of personality)
Personally I don't think that the female characters have been getting more sexualized than they were before. I feel, maybe one female character will get the fanservice stick in every new main game (like Yue Ying in DW6, or Xingcai's ridiculous outfit in DW8). And some characters just have been stuck with their DW6 redesign them (like Diao Chan who was a lot more restrained in the PS2 games).
But I don't think there's been a dramatic change. I'd even say there's been more a change in males rather than females. Besides Liu Bei, Xiahou Dun got more handsome. There's also been new additions like Guo Jia and Ma Dai (and in general newer additions seem to be edging towards adrogynous males or teens but that's a different topic)
I don't agree that they're all great in terms of personality though. I don't know if it's been more of an intentional push or a side effect of the huge cast (where everyone, not just the females, are becoming really 1-note), but a lot of female characters have been kinda stuck purely as "X character's wife". Not saying that for all characters (Zhu Rong, Xingcai and Wang Yi are all great) but it's happening, even for the veterans like SunShangXiang and Zhenji.
(I didn't mention Cai Wenji; she has potential but Koei have to use her for something first. Also just wanted to say, Bao Sanniang is awful)
TheSpoiler
Member
Yeah, part of it is there aren't that many historical/fictional accounts on the ladies, so they end up being side pieces in DW. SSX has to be waifu material because sadly Shu is still Koei's baby.
Samurai Warriors does a far better job. They can get a little bit stereotypical, but they are less one note than Dynasty Warriors characters end up being. It does help that there are less characters in general in SW, so they get more focus.
I wonder if there might be some historical influence in there too. I'm not an expert or anything, but from what I read (mostly while assembling the OP):
Women in the Han China were supposed to be mothers and nothing else. They were uneducated. Romance of the Three Kingdoms explicitly refers to them as disposable. Wang Yi's the only historically known female combatant. Zhu Rong and Bao Sanniang were warriors in fiction, but didn't actually exist.
In Sengoku Japan, the status of women was on the decline, but they weren't at rock bottom yet. They were also supposed to be subservient and were considered inferior. But samurai's first wives were educated and could be politically active within their clan, specifically handling the financial side. Women could lead clans and own property if there was no male successor found more suitable. Samurai women might have been trained to fight so that they could protect their families from attack, and they might have helped to help produce ammunition.
Leaders and warriors would still overwhelmingly be men in either case, but you can see that noble women could be more influential in Japan. I haven't payed enough of either series to be confident that this difference matters, though.
