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[Nirolak]

GamesIndustry had a big article about reporting on digital data: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...s-industry-still-struggling-with-digital-data

Highlights:

• They interviewed SuperData's Joost van Dreunen, NPD's Mat Piscatella, and Epic/SteamSpy's Sergey Galyonkin. The below summary is of the NPD parts, since I think most of us know about SteamSpy, and SuperData gets their data from payment processors instead of publishers.
• Many publishers actually didn't have a good way to track this data effectively and accurately in real time, in a way that was conducive to NPD reporting (think more like regions and timeframe of the data than being able to get the data in the first place).
• Digital sales were very low for an incredibly long time, so it wasn't until recently that publishers felt they should even be caring about this data enough to invest in tools to track it.
• Even if they did want to track it, some smaller publishers didn't have enough staff to actually go and build the tools to track this data effectively versus having them work on more important tasks.
• Some publishers also were worried about sharing their data because they didn't want other publishers to know where they were being successful. For example, say you were selling 3 million copies of a PC strategy series on Steam that had no direct competitors, but no one had paid attention thus far. You probably wouldn't want anyone else to realize how much money was being made and actually try to make a competing product.
• Publishers and developers care about this data much more these days due to the huge digital sales percentage of the current games industry, so NPD is having an easier time when trying to get this data, though there are still barriers. NPD thinks these barriers can definitely be overcome, and that the value of this data is becoming much more clear to publishers.
• In case people haven't noticed thus far, we do actually get digital data in NPD reports now for most major publishers.

 

[ethomaz]

I'm sure publishers has all data and they just don't want to share them.

PSN: Sony shares all data of publisher's games to publiser
XBL: MS shares all data of own publisher's games to publisher
Steam: Valve shares all data of own publisher's games to publisher

Same for others Stores/systems.

Digital is easy to track than retail... you have the actual data right in your Excel while the retail you are far way to get all data from small stores so you estimate them. Digital is more accurate/precise then retail.

What is happening is that Sony/MS/Steam/ETC can't share with 3rd party data without Publishers approval and Publishers didn't want to share the data... that is the issue.

All Publishers have the data in front of it monitor in real time.

While all publishers not decide to share the data to NPD (for example) or Sony/MS/Valve/ETC get from Publishers to share them... you won't have the reliable tracking for digital.

Edit - Fixed to say Publisher's own games.

 

[MatPiscatella]

If anyone wants to check that out and ask questions, I'm around.

IWhat is happening is that Sony/MS/Steam/ETC can't share with 3rd party data without Publishers approval and Publishers didn't want to share the data... that is the issue.

Sure. Don't want to or aren't properly resourced to.

 

[jwhit28]

GamesIndustry had a big article about reporting on digital data: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...s-industry-still-struggling-with-digital-data

Highlights:

• Some publishers also were worried about sharing their data because they didn't want other publishers to know where they were being successful. For example, say you were selling 3 million copies of a PC strategy series on Steam that had no direct competitors, but no one had paid attention thus far. You probably wouldn't want anyone else to realize how much money was being made and actually try to make a competing product.

You can't hide in there forever Sega!

 

[ethomaz]

Sure. Don't want to or aren't properly resourced to.

If you publish a game in one of these big store fronts you have for your games reports even in real time to see how many units you sold and the revenue generated.

If you say "resourced to" you mean they didn't tools for that then I disagree... it is digital and the info is right in front of the Publisher.

If they are not sharing them it is for another reason and not lack or resource.

PS. I can't say for PSN/XBL but Steam has that data for the publishers of own games... even for self-publishing.

 

[LukasTaves]

I'm sure publishers has all data and they just don't want to share them.

PSN: Sony shares all data do publishers
XBL: MS shares all data do publishers
Steam: Valve shares all data do publishers

Same for others Stores/systems.

Digital is easy to track than retail... you have the actual data right in your Excel while the retail you are far way to get all data from small stores so you estimate them. Digital is more accurate/precise then retail.

What is happening is that Sony/MS/Steam/ETC can't share with 3rd party data without Publishers approval and Publishers didn't want to share the data... that is the issue.

All Publishers have the data in front of it monitor in real time.

While all publishers not decide to share the data to NPD (for example) or Sony/MS/Valve/ETC get from Publishers to share them... you won't have the reliable tracking for digital.

They definitely share the data from the publisher games to the respective publisher, but do they share data from other publishers as well? (Genuine question).

Digital sales might be an easier task to track compared to physical, but harder to get access to that data, for instance I doubt ms, Sony or steam gives all their data to npd and other trackers, despite using their data themselves.

 

[MatPiscatella]

If you publish a game in one of these big store fronts you have for your games reports even in real time to sell how many units you sold and the revenue generated.

If you say "resourced to" you mean they didn't tools for that then I disagree... it is digital and the info is right in for of the Publisher.

If they are not sharing them it is for another reason and not lack or resource.

Your assumptions are incorrect.

Real time data is not universally available for the console digital storefronts.

Resourcing is absolutely an issue and challenge.

They definitely share the data from the publisher games to the respective publisher, but do they share data from other publishers as well? (Genuine question).

Only the publisher itself has access to the data from the 1st parties. So, for example, if I'm at Activision, I cannot see EA data.

Digital sales might be an easier task to track compared to physical

You'd be surprised. The complexity of all the various DLC and full game packages can make it tough. Physical data comes weekly for the most part, comes with a UPC code that makes for easy mapping, packaged is a breeze. Digital takes some work with different product naming conventions across the digital platforms, no UPC equivalent, etc. Mapping is a huge pain.

I doubt ms, Sony or steam gives all their data to npd and other trackers, despite using their data themselves.

They certainly do not.

 

[ethomaz]

Your assumptions are incorrect.

Real time data is not available for the console digital storefronts. Only STEAM allows real time reporting.

Resourcing is absolutely an issue and challenge.

It is not assumption at all.

When I wanted to enter in the ID@Xbox program I read all the contract clausules and they said they have tools to get this data from our own published games... Steam has that too like you said.

Publishers gets the data from the storefronts... if not then no publisher will agree with selling his game in that storefront.

They definitely share the data from the publisher games to the respective publisher, but do they share data from other publishers as well? (Genuine question).

Digital sales might be an easier task to track compared to physical, but harder to get access to that data, for instance I doubt ms, Sony or steam gives all their data to npd and other trackers, despite using their data themselves.

MS/Sony/Valve/ETC give all data for your (publisher) own games.

Eg. EA have access to all game sales data that EA published in these storefronts.

 

[Akai__]

I don't believe it for a second that digital sale data is hard to track for storefronts like Xbox, Playstation and Steam. Sure, it might be for NPD, but not for those that sell it.

How else would they and publishers/devs handle sale data, earning reports and tax stuff, if they only had a vague number? Seems very unbelievable to me.

 

[MatPiscatella]

How else would they and publishers/devs handle sale data, earning reports and tax stuff, if they only had a vague number? Seems very unbelievable to me.

Who said anything about the numbers being vague? Of course the data comes complete and accurate. It's just not as simple to access and use as some people assume.

It is not assumption at all.

When I wanted to enter in the ID@Xbox program I read all the contract clausules and they said they have tools to get this data from our own published games.

All I was saying was incorrect was the real-time aspect of it. I'm not arguing that the data doesn't exist.

 

[Cess007]

Many publishers actually didn't have any way to track this data effectively and accurately.

If real, this is insane. No way Publishers doesn't have a way to track this data accurately at least.
Also, shouldn't Sony and MS at least have a efficient way to track the games they gave on PSP+ and GwG? I mean, they pay the Devs according to the # of downloads, no?

 

[Theorry]

Many publishers actually didn't have any way to track this data effectively and accurately

Yeah dont believe that.

 

[ethomaz]

Publisher has easy access to their published games in these storefront... that is a given... even a rudimentar tool will give you a monthly report but most storefront systems has this data in real time (or hourly timed updates).

Now to NPD (or other 3rd party company) is hard to track because they needs to reach all publishers and make a deal to receive their data... after that they needs to consolidate everything in a big report.

NPD faces very difficults and that is understandable.

I can see only two options here:

1) NPD makes deals with all publishers.
2) MS/Sony/Valve/Etc reach an deal with all their clients (publishers) to share the data to NPD.

The two options are close to impossible tasks like it is close to impossible to track all retail (some retail didn't deal with NPD).

Even so the second options is the most easy to NPD consolidate the data.

While there are publishers not allowing the share of their data the digital scenario will be like it is today.

 

[Yankee Ruin X]

Of course publishers know how many units they have sold digitally otherwise how would they get paid??

Do they think Sony just says sorry EA you only sold 1 copy of BF1 on PSN this week here is your $40.

 

[MatPiscatella]

While there are publishers not allowing the share of their data the digital scenario will be like it is today.

That's the challenge, yes. Coverage will continue to improve, but universal participation is needed to have the digital coverage be as the packaged coverage has been for years.

 

[Akai__]

Who said anything about the numbers being vague? Of course the data comes complete and accurate. It's just not as simple to access and use as some people assume.

So what does the part about "Many publishers actually didn't have any way to track this data effectively and accurately" mean, then?

To me, that sounds exactly what I was saying. Vague numbers.

 

[Nirolak]

I updated that line a bit.

 

[MatPiscatella]

So what does the part about ...

That's not quite what the article is saying.

I believe that's coming from a quote attributed to van Dreunen of SuperData:

"There are multiple reasons why publishers are reluctant to share data," says SuperData CEO Joost van Dreunen.

"For one, the majors are publicly traded firms, which means that any shared data presents a financial liability. Across the board the big publishers have historically sought to protect the sanctity of their internal operations because of the long development cycles and high capital risks involved in AAA game publishing. But, to be honest, it's only been a few years that especially legacy publishers have started to aggregate and apply digital data, which means that their internal reporting still tends to be relatively underdeveloped. Many of them are only now building the necessary teams and infrastructure around business intelligence."

Definitely a different thing that what you're referring. Give the article a read.

I updated that line a bit.

Cool.

 

[Ashtar]

I always love these software sales thread, always a good kerfuffle about them

 

[Akai__]

I updated that line a bit.

That makes way more sense. Thanks.

That's not quite what the article is saying.

I believe that's coming from a quote attributed to van Dreunen of SuperData:

Definitely a different thing that what you're referring. Give the article a read.

Nirolak edited that part. It makes way more sense now.

I get that real time tracking is not an easy thing to do.

 

[ethomaz]

Read the article... yeap looks like the OP was a bit confuse.

Publishers has the data of own games.

The difficult is about how to consolidate all stores fronts (there are many) across all regions (each region with it own currency) in a synchronized timeframe (think like Japan team has this data a week later but US team only a month late).

The difficult inside publishers looks to be about the process and not data or tools... the consolidation process across the whole company is still hard... some companies (or even divisions inside the company) do this consolidation process in different times... monthly, quarter, etc.

That is what I understood from the article.

 

[Taliban Stan]

I'm shocked that ability to track this type of data is listed as an issue.

Granted, I don't work in the games industry but I work with computer systems and someone saying that like a digital storefront being able to track how much of a product was sold is like impossible or an engineering feet immediately makes my eyebrows go up.

There's no automatic way to get reports from Valve, MS, or Sony and if you call them ask and ahow many copies you've sold, their response is like, "damn, now that is a good question." yet they still can cut a check for products sold? It just seems like someone is getting the wool pooled over their eyes if they're being told this is like untrackable data circa 2017.

 

[ethomaz]

I'm shocked that ability to track this type of data is listed as an issue.

Granted, I don't work in the games industry but I work with computer systems and someone saying that like a digital storefront being able to track how much of a product was sold is like impossible or an engineering feet immediately makes my eyebrows go up.

There's no automatic way to get reports from Valve, MS, or Sony and if you call them ask and ahow many copies you've sold, their response is like, "damn, now that is a good question." yet they still can cut a check for products sold? It just seems like someone is getting the wool pooled over their eyes if they're being told this is like untrackable data circa 2017.

The core business of a storefront is how many units and value it sold...

This is the very basic of any storefront system... Publishers receives this data or better can even access from browser.

The issue looks to be the consolidation process inside a big Publisher that works WW... access to the data can be separated because each country has it own tax, currency, etc and that affect the report.

 

[Joni]

Of course companies like Sony and Microsoft will tell publishers how much their game sold. It determines how much money they give. Maybe they just didn't tell them if a game was sold on a specific day, which the NPD needs for their monthly tally.

Also, shouldn't Sony and MS at least have a efficient way to track the games they gave on PSP+ and GwG? I mean, they pay the Devs according to the # of downloads, no?

Sony pays a certain sum agreed up front if I remember correctly.

 

[fernoca]

It can also be seen in indies, whenever they talk about sales, they are not allowed to share specific numbers of their own games. So they either round it or talk percentages

Like with Shovel Knight, were they share sales stats through graphs and mention a rounded number of global sales, but no specifics.