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[Vognerful]

i don't know about writes but it doesn't matter for game performance
here's quote from Tim Sweeney:

here's quote from PS5 SSD patent how to achieve 5Gb/s for very small files:

here's is Cerny saying PS5 SSD could stream 4gb of textures which are behind the players vision in half a second


here's slide from road to PS5 showing SSD could stream 1 second game time of data into RAM

Sorry but all these quotes has nothing to do with what I asked.

Your point that I asked about that you claimed that ps5 SSD can produce "sustained performance" while PC's can't. I asked you where is the source of the claim, you showed me quotes how it produced the output.

So I ask you again, how does the SSD Differs in producing exact performance in all applications at all instances.

 

[cormack12]

So I've spent months reading and think I've got a layman's grasp on certain aspects of design. Here's one though.

An artist creates high polycount models
Then they export them into the engine

The high polycount original might be 850,000p, whereas the in game model might only be 80,000p

And then that game is scaled across platforms. The Bayek on PS4 Pro will have the same pCount as in PS4 version

How much work would it take to push each model to the maximum per platform. And would it be worth it to the user experience (not comemrcially)

 

[Darius87]

Sorry but all these quotes has nothing to do with what I asked.

Your point that I asked about that you claimed that ps5 SSD can produce "sustained performance" while PC's can't. I asked you where is the source of the claim, you showed me quotes how it produced the output.

So I ask you again, how does the SSD Differs in producing exact performance in all applications at all instances.

i don't know what applications you talking about? there's only games that uses SSD BW for PS5 and TIm Sweeney states exactly that PC SSD numbers are theoretical and refers PS5 speed as actual speed meaning numbers don't lie.

I’m referring to actual speed, not theoretical specs

if Tim Sweeney exact words doesn't convince you then nothing will.

 

[MastaKiiLA]

To be considered next-gen, a game just has to look visibly better than the current generation. There's never been any quantifiable metric for this. The game is on a next-gen console, and it shows noticeable improvement over a similar game from the previous generation. Halo Infinite did not. Bright Memory Infinite's reveal, and R&C do.

The conspicuous timing of this thread, juxtaposed against the comments from gaming media proclaiming R&C to be the first next-gen game, along with the conspicuous absence of R&C from any of the criteria listed in the OP, makes this come off as an attempted slight at that title, rather than an objective attempt to establish next-gen benchmarks. If this came out last week, or a few months back, it might have offered more value than it does now. These kind of posts are harder to view outside of the console war prism, when they involve such coincidental timing. All IMO.

 

[TLZ]

 

[Vognerful]

i don't know what applications you talking about? there's only games that uses SSD BW for PS5 and TIm Sweeney states exactly that PC SSD numbers are theoretical and refers PS5 speed as actual speed meaning numbers don't lie.

if Tim Sweeney exact words doesn't convince you then nothing will.

Ok I will make easy for you.

What you spend the last 2 posts answering us the following question:

"Can ps5 SSD hit it's theoretical speeds?"

Which I did not ask.

I asked does each game that is downloaded on The ps5 SSD and each time the SSD trying to seek data to load into RAM from either game files, music, videos, files within the game files (like loading zones or areas, textures, codes, etc.) Is hitting its theoretical speed?

 

[GreyHand23]

So is Ray Tracing on pc, yet it's considered next gen magic

It seems people are missing the important part of my statement. “That alone”

I think these features are important for next gen graphics, but it’s the combination of these features at higher quality or amount than before that make a next gen game imo.

 

[Pedro Motta]

Let's put it this way. Give the team the benefit of the doubt. They could easily structure their game to be played on the PC. The bottleneck will always be bandwidth of the GPU. I'm 99% sure that the team would be able to make it work flawlessly with a PC AND with added RTX and 4k/60FPS.

So you are implying that are games that run on PC @ 4K/60 with RTX? Can you name one? And you're saying the wizards at Insomniac could fill the VRAM of a 2080Ti in 2 seconds?

 

[VFXVeteran]

what nonsense is this you're the one who say wee need to know size of data for levels of R&C just to know if it's possible to do same on PC SSD's but now without knowing GPU BW throughput for R&C you telling that is BW starved.
it most likely design choice because destruction all over the place would impede locomotion and aiming for player.

It might be but it might be what I said too. That's my assumption and it's logical. Yours is logical too. I'm not saying your reason is stupid but you are saying mine is?

 

[VFXVeteran]

What exactly do you mean by "structure the game to work on pc", Sounds like you could mean changing things about the game itself "level design" "timing of the action" which would be missing the point.

No, I mean changing the low level algorthims. For example:

call a function Transport() // could be the SSD fetch/store of PS5 tech

call a function TransportGeneral() // could be the SSD/HDD of a PC

 

[LittleBigGamer]

PS5 Exclusives the thread.

or how to make VFX upset

 

[VFXVeteran]

So you are implying that are games that run on PC @ 4K/60 with RTX? Can you name one? And you're saying the wizards at Insomniac could fill the VRAM of a 2080Ti in 2 seconds?

There are no games on a PC @ 4k/60FPS with RTX (full options) out right now. So there definitely won't be a console with the same specs doing it. Maybe the 3090 can do it. We'll have to see.

Yea, Insomniac would have more latitude with a PC on a 2080Ti or above with a good portion of CPU RAM as well. I would think that 2080Ti has more accessible VRAM (11GB) than the next-gen consoles have. You could easily put all game code in CPU RAM and of course the OS is in CPU RAM as well.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I will make sure to stop by here whenever PC gets a bad port and harp about to no end.

Will consantly talk about how its multi configuration nature makes it hard for devs to optimise resulting in more shitty ports than ones that use extra power.

Will only speak facts so wouldnt get banned for trolling ala vfxveteran.

 

[Darius87]

Ok I will make easy for you.

What you spend the last 2 posts answering us the following question:

"Can ps5 SSD hit it's theoretical speeds?"

Which I did not ask.

I asked does each game that is downloaded on The ps5 SSD and each time the SSD trying to seek data to load into RAM from either game files, music, videos, files within the game files (like loading zones or areas, textures, codes, etc.) Is hitting its theoretical speed?

i don't see 'each game' in your question

sorry but where is the proof that PS5 SSD read/write and seeking times are sustainable?

it seems that your brain doesn't fixates what actual speed means if it couldn't sustain its speed Sweeney wouldn't said 'actual' it would be theoretical speed, it doesn't matter what game it is PS5 SSD is designed to work like RAM to sustain its actual speed even with very small granularity. sorry i don't know how to explain any better to you.

I’m referring to actual speed, not theoretical specs. PS5 can transfer and decompress textures and geometry from storage directly into video memory without CPU decompression and driver abstraction overhead, which makes the overall perf much higher than PC.

Spoiler

 

[Darius87]

It might be but it might be what I said too. That's my assumption and it's logical. Yours is logical too. I'm not saying your reason is stupid but you are saying mine is?

yes it is, because no engineer design a console with GPU BW that could be exhausted in its first year and knowing that PS5 has cache scrubbers your reason sounds stupid.

 

[VFXVeteran]

yes it is, because no engineer design a console with GPU BW that could be exhausted in its first year and knowing that PS5 has cache scrubbers your reason sounds stupid.

Wait. Dude, explain why (in technical terms) that you are convinced R&C for PC could NOT be implemented by Insomniac themselves. I'm ready to engage in this.

 

[Darius87]

Wait. Dude, explain why (in technical terms) that you are convinced R&C for PC could NOT be implemented by Insomniac themselves. I'm ready to engage in this.

start reading from the start i'm not gonna go in circles with you.

 

[VFXVeteran]

in this case more then raw throughput of data the problem is latency for PC, we know that PS5 loads textures already prepared to GPU from SSD though PC SSD would go to gpu drivers, kernel, cpu back and fort just to prepare textures for GPU thus increasing latency and anyway PC's SSD's throughput isn't sustained unlike PS5 so big bottleneck even assuming R&C levels aren't that big clearly it would be way more then average 2s on PS5 even twice would not be good and would break immersion.

You don't know how much latency. You are just guessing. I'm not going to argue over speculation.

1) not all levels are equal in size
2) PS5 SSD have sustained throughput no mater granularity of data so always around 5.5gb/s.

So you are saying it will always read at 5.5gb/s? That's not how hardware works. And the 5.5gb/s is theoretical. No piece of hardware works at 100% efficiency. None. There is energy loss through heat. And since you can't measure it directly, you don't know what it's maximum is under a consistent load. Again speculation.

you have to adjust your thinking to reconcile it with reality that it's not possible to do such things on current PC SSD's otherwise why PC doesn't have games to utilize PC SSD's before? what's the obstacle?

Most companies work with a required spec on PC hardware. Which is not an SSD. Why code up a game to use an SSD when the majority of PC owners may not have an SSD. Thats' a silly question.

Your conclusion doesn't have any factual information to back up it's claim. It's all speculation.

 

[Darius87]

You don't know how much latency. You are just guessing. I'm not going to argue over speculation.

how unbelievable of you to know that i don't know... and you said you're ready to engage... how weak... i expect better Mr.Sensei.

Spoiler: btw

i've read PS5 technology patent

Tim also just guessing.

So you are saying it will always read at 5.5gb/s? That's not how hardware works. And the 5.5gb/s is theoretical. No piece of hardware works at 100% efficiency. None. There is energy loss through heat. And since you can't measure it directly, you don't know what it's maximum is under a consistent load. Again speculation.

look Tim Sweeney is also speculating about PS5 SSD while having dev-kit in his place.

Your conclusion doesn't have any factual information to back up it's claim. It's all speculation.

yes also Tim and Mark we all speculating...

 

[VFXVeteran]

how unbelievable of you to know that i don't know... and you said you're ready to engage... how weak... i expect better Mr.Sensei.

Spoiler: btw

i've read PS5 technology patent

Tim also just guessing.

Dude, I am not denying latency. I'm saying put a number on it! You can't! nor can you put his statement in a realworld scenario like R&C because you don't know how much memory each level is, how fast it would take on a general SSD, or anything else. You can't blindly equate what some developers said without any discussion of real world tests and immediately conclude that the PC with any form of disk drive can't do the world transitions in R&C. It's simply not as easy as you think.

 

[Darius87]

Dude, I am not denying latency. I'm saying put a number on it! You can't! nor can you put his statement in a realworld scenario like R&C because you don't know how much memory each level is, how fast it would take on a general SSD, or anything else. You can't blindly equate what some developers said without any discussion of real world tests and immediately conclude that the PC with any form of disk drive can't do the world transitions in R&C. It's simply not as easy as you think.

i don't need to know nitty gritty numbers all i need to know is what dev says about theyr game and it's doesn't matter what size of levels is or any of that stuff if dev says game was made with PS5 SSD in mind and it's not possible without it i believe it. it just simple as that.

"We knew that there was going to be an extremely fast SSD [in the PS5], so we were trying to leverage that as much as possible."

"Part of the reason we wanted to add dimensionality as a theme is, it's wide open. This is one of the few franchises that can get away with doing anything. We can basically do whatever we want. And being able to transport players nearly instantaneously, which is a huge, new feature of the PlayStation 5, that was something that we were aiming to do and really capitalise on. And I will say, even hearing about how fast it was, I was blown away when we saw how fast it actually was."

Insomniac has said multiple times that this kind of game wouldn't have been possible without the SSD inside the PS5. Without it, the gameplay would have been otherwise littered with loading screens, which would completely break the cinematic nature of these world-shifting segments. For Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart, the developer has eliminated loading screens completely, so prepare to be travelling through worlds via the Dimensionator, but also portals within worlds with your new Rift Tether tool.

 

[VFXVeteran]

 

[Piggoro]

So I've spent months reading and think I've got a layman's grasp on certain aspects of design. Here's one though.

An artist creates high polycount models
Then they export them into the engine

The high polycount original might be 850,000p, whereas the in game model might only be 80,000p

And then that game is scaled across platforms. The Bayek on PS4 Pro will have the same pCount as in PS4 version

How much work would it take to push each model to the maximum per platform. And would it be worth it to the user experience (not comemrcially)

Hey. You got the gist but not 100%.
Here's an oversimplified description of the process: usually, 3d artists either create a super high-poly model (in ZBrush) or import and adapt a model obtained through the photogrammetry process, etc.

Next, they create a so-called normal map - essentially, a texture/skin of this super high-poly model with all the tiniest details, self-shadows, etc. Then, they recreate a low-poly version of the model to fit in with performance requirements on specific platform/engine constraints/etc (plus, a bunch of lower poly model versions for different LOD levels).

And wrap it in this super high detailed texture that they created off of the high-poly model. So that when we don't look super close - the character/vehicle/weapon/object looks highly detailed but, at close examination, we could see that the majority of realistic-looking details are represented by mere photorealistic texture.

Well and then, when a game gets ported to various platforms, the overall quality of models could be adapted to a specific platform alongside resolution, fps, and other fidelity adjustments.

 

[Piggoro]

Hey. You got the gist but not 100%.
Here's an oversimplified description of the process: usually, 3d artists either create a super high-poly model (in ZBrush) or import and adapt a model obtained through the photogrammetry process, etc.

Next, they create a so-called normal map - essentially, a texture/skin of this super high-poly model with all the tiniest details, self-shadows, etc. Then, they recreate a low-poly version of the model to fit in with performance requirements on specific platform/engine constraints/etc (plus, a bunch of lower poly model versions for different LOD levels).

And wrap it in this super high detailed texture that they created off of the high-poly model. So that when we don't look super close - the character/vehicle/weapon/object looks highly detailed but, at close examination, we could see that the majority of realistic-looking details are represented by mere photorealistic texture.

Well and then, when a game gets ported to various platforms, the overall quality of models could be adapted to a specific platform alongside resolution, fps, and other fidelity adjustments.

To add to the topic, one of the biggest and the most important features of recently shown Unreal 5 engine is the supposed bypass of that high-poly to low-poly but with normal map process. Meaning, that artists will be able to feed multi-million polygon models to the engine and they will be depicted without need for simpler models.

 

[VFXVeteran]

And........ another one...