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[Cashon]

I've been bothered more and more by something I've been calling a feedback loop that exists within gaming media.

Essentially, the opinions of "journalists" influence the opinions of their readers, who in turn become overzealous toward certain games/franchises. Then, since the media is ultimately a business, the media has to cater toward the overzealous fans so as to not upset them so they can retain their views/ad dollars.

Basically, the loop is:
media influences gamers (previews, reviews, Top 10 lists, etc) -----> gamers drink the Kool aid ----> gamers get upset if media says anything bad about the Kool aid -----> media continues to overpraise game out of fear of losing viewers (top 10 list, overly positive retrospectives, etc) -----> gamers Kool aid is validated/new gamers drink the Kool aid ---- and so on

This presents a problem because it removes objectivism (as much as such a thing can be objective anyway) in favor of traffic-based opinions and lists that will retain and not offend the lowest-common denominator/majority of their viewers.

It also leads to a tremendous lack of actual criticalthought toward what makes a game good, both on its own merit and compared to other games.

 

[Abriael_GN]

Simple solution: follow and support media and journalists who don't do that. And yes. They exist.

Hint: you gotta look for smaller outlets that aren't afraid to talk about games that aren't Fortnite and Zelda.

Some may say "Even if I do that, the loop will still exist because it's just me." The problem isn't the fact that the loop exists. It will always exist. The fact is that people complain about it, but are content to remain part of it.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

Simple solution: follow and support media and journalists who don't do that. And yes. They exist.

True. Let's start a recommendation thread.

I'll start:

Ollie Barder

Ollie Barder's stories. I cover gaming in Japan as well as the pop-culture here.

www.forbes.com

Japanese Games Never Died, They Have Just Been Ignored

About ten years ago a curious change occurred in the Western gaming press, it seemed that anything Japanese was a byword for bad. This also had the effect of silencing the history of gaming that pre-dated it. Allowing for, among other things, derivative games to be heralded as innovative. Much [...]

www.forbes.com

‘Final Fantasy XVI’ Producer Naoki Yoshida Is Entirely Right About ‘JRPG’ Being A Discriminatory Term

In a recent interview, 'Final Fantasy XVI' producer Naoki Yoshida finally took the international gaming press to task for being discriminatory towards Japanese games.

www.forbes.com

 

[feynoob]

Clickbait is a form of attracting a crowd of people to your website in this age of internet.

Anything that is too drama will skyrocket the traffic of the website, which in turn generates them money.

That is the main problem that you have right now.

 

[Kilau]

This is a TOTK thread isn’t it?

 

[Cashon]

Clickbait is a form of attracting a crowd of people to your website in this age of internet.

Anything that is too drama will skyrocket the traffic of the website, which in turn generates them money.

That is the main problem that you have right now.

That would be the opposite of what I'm saying. That would be everyone giving Tears of the Kingdom a 5/10, or saying that God of War Ascension is the best in the series.

 

[Cashon]

This is a TOTK thread isn’t it?

Not directly, but Tears of the Kingdom is the latest game that fits what I'm talking about.

God of War: Ragnarok, Horizon: Forbidden West, Halo Infinite, and Forza Horizon 5 are other recent examples.

 

[SeraphJan]

There are literally nothing to gain for journalists to give critical and honest opinion towards a franchises with very aggressive fanboism, most journalist go for the safe money route.

Critics receive death threats for giving honest reviews are not rare in the industry, as long as they follow the most trending narrative of that game, they are safe. If you actually take time to read the reviews instead of just take a peek at the score, you will find most of the essays are just copy paste of each others opinion with minor personality tweaking. The fanboy will then use that rating as a proof of quality tool for warring against other franchise they detest with circular reasoning such as "the critic says so".

Game awards are not free from this problem either. The best way to decide what to buy what to skip is to watch video footage and decide for yourself, sites such as Metacritic is not something I would recommend to use as a buying guide. As you can pretty much tell by most of the comment in this thread, critic score had long lost its credibility, instead of of buying guide as what it was supposed to be, it had became a warring tool.

 

[HTK]

If you still read and watch from places like IGN you’re the problem. Good night.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

I've been bothered more and more by something I've been calling a feedback loop that exists within gaming media.

Essentially, the opinions of "journalists" influence the opinions of their readers, who in turn become overzealous toward certain games/franchises. Then, since the media is ultimately a business, the media has to cater toward the overzealous fans so as to not upset them so they can retain their views/ad dollars.

Basically, the loop is:
media influences gamers (previews, reviews, Top 10 lists, etc) -----> gamers drink the Kool aid ----> gamers get upset if media says anything bad about the Kool aid -----> media continues to overpraise game out of fear of losing viewers (top 10 list, overly positive retrospectives, etc) -----> gamers Kool aid is validated/new gamers drink the Kool aid ---- and so on

This presents a problem because it removes objectivism (as much as such a thing can be objective anyway) in favor of traffic-based opinions and lists that will retain and not offend the lowest-common denominator/majority of their viewers.

It also leads to a tremendous lack of actual criticalthought toward what makes a game good, both on its own merit and compared to other games.

Content (PR + Infliencuers + Minions) = Narrative.

is not a problem. is what it is. and that is how it works.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

You really think there are still people out there who give a rat's ass about a gaming "journalists" opinion?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Multiplayer gamers have no idea what OP is talking about. We rose up and transcended the rotten ceiling known as "Metascore/Opencritic". We do not care about hype or marketing. We are the saviors of the medium. Pure hearts.

 

[Cashon]

You really think there are still people out there who give a rat's ass about a gaming "journalists" opinion?

Obviously. Just look at this forum anytime a new, big game comes out. There's always a review thread that has hundreds of replies talking about nothing other than the opinions of people in the industry.

 

[GigaBowser]

They called it Zelda Tears of The Kingdom because they knew how much tears therd be when people realized Nintendos made the best games ever

I'm sorry my friends its all true

Nintendo only makes one good games a decade but when they do holy crudola

 

[Filben]

I rarely read reviews on major sites these days.

One of the better known German critics started a independent business and website after being the chief editor for a big German media outlet for 20 years.

I rather spend 6 EUR per Month to have access to his insightful podcasts, reviews and previews, and features about let's say the mythology influence on Elden Ring and the like because this guy knows what he's talking about and acknowledges when he doesn't. He's also rather critical and doesn't hype things to the sky just because of one mechanic, or the name and IP etc.

 

[GymWolf]

Simple solution, stop following videogame media of any kind.

 

[supernova8]

Any "journalist" who goes on and on about any sort of agenda beyond just playing and reviewing the fucking game itself, doesn't get my views/clicks/attention.

Pretty simple.

 

[Wildebeest]

Games are psychological in that their function depends totally on the reaction of the person playing them. Psychology is very hard to do reproducible science on, and attempts to get "objective facts" from studying it are hubristic.

 

[Success]

I have a feeling I found a fellow Tetris Supporter.

 

[kuncol02]

I've been bothered more and more by something I've been calling a feedback loop that exists within gaming media.

Essentially, the opinions of "journalists" influence the opinions of their readers, who in turn become overzealous toward certain games/franchises. Then, since the media is ultimately a business, the media has to cater toward the overzealous fans so as to not upset them so they can retain their views/ad dollars.

Basically, the loop is:
media influences gamers (previews, reviews, Top 10 lists, etc) -----> gamers drink the Kool aid ----> gamers get upset if media says anything bad about the Kool aid -----> media continues to overpraise game out of fear of losing viewers (top 10 list, overly positive retrospectives, etc) -----> gamers Kool aid is validated/new gamers drink the Kool aid ---- and so on

This presents a problem because it removes objectivism (as much as such a thing can be objective anyway) in favor of traffic-based opinions and lists that will retain and not offend the lowest-common denominator/majority of their viewers.

It also leads to a tremendous lack of actual criticalthought toward what makes a game good, both on its own merit and compared to other games.

It also happens another way. I still don't understand what game media played, but they definitely didn't reviewed Cyberpunk 2077 I played..

 

[Lasha]

If you spend your free time on introspection and self improvement you eventually won't need click bait and media to fill the lack of meaning in your life. The cycle is the fault of gamers who allow themselves to be molded by the products they consume rather than the media that sprung up to fill demand.

 

[existensmaximum]

It also happens another way. I still don't understand what game media played, but they definitely didn't reviewed Cyberpunk 2077 I played..

I played the game from day 0 on PC. Had no issues, encountered no bugs and above all, it's easily one of the best games I've played in at least 10 years. Superb world-building and super inmersive with a very well written story, for once.

To me, it's a masterpiece.

 

[calistan]

You really think there are still people out there who give a rat's ass about a gaming "journalists" opinion?

I could quote to you from the monthly Edge reviews threads, or point out that the Redfall OT for talking about and playing the game is 7 pages while the Redfall review thread for people who mostly haven't played the game but definitely care about the reviews is 76 pages.

 

[ungalo]

Simple solution, stop following videogame media of any kind.

It's not just about the media that's what OP is saying. I even think he gives a little too much credit to the media, players don't need anyone to be hysterical.

Personally i don't follow them anyway and i'm probably not the only one but the situation remains. It's getting hard to go through the whole hysteric phase in one way or the other when you want to talk about a big release that can have some impact on the industry.

 

[Clear]

The basic fact is that when most people read or watch reviews the default position is to take them at face value. I mean, why would you disbelieve someone's take straight off the jump when they have managed to get themselves into a position where their opinion is so highlighted? Especially if the presentation is contrived to look authoritative or high quality. Like, *cough* Edge.

Its only after gaining your own sense of taste, likes and dislikes, that you can start to filter and prioritize which media voices you find sit well with you. But, the reality is there's always new people coming up giving and receiving new influences so there's always a prevailing wisdom about which things are "good" and what are "bad".

tl;dr: It is what it is. The only solution is to make your own mind up about what you like personally, because there's very little chance that the world is going to suddenly "see the light" and start conforming to some absolute truth and accuracy in your eyes.

 

[cireza]

Main issue I see right now is that professional media has become irrelevant and all information is relayed by youtube influencers who ARE biased towards whatever brand they like, and whose reviews ARE bought out by publishers, with free products and collectors, very nice review guides with example sentences you can use in your review etc...

Professional press was already a sad joke, but at least they weren't totally bought by publishers and had to be a little bit objective (there are still walls of ads on the websites). Still irrelevant though, didn't read a single pro review in more than 10 years. But influencers managed to be even less relevant, which is kind of incredible in some way.

Reality is that focus has shifted towards youtube, and influencers are the ones getting the views there. This is a superb opportunity for publishers to completely control whatever is being said about their new hardware and games. I still remember the guy who managed to get a Switch before launch and published a review about it (saying it was meh-ish at best, which is absolutely true in terms of hardware, and it was decently explained). It got taken down by Nintendo super fast.

So basically, everything that is preview and reviews before launch can be and will be bought out by publishers on this very large scene.

 

[SmokedMeat]

People put way too much stock into the traditional gaming media, and trash like Metacritic scores. Then there’s the imaginary “GotY” stuff.

And it goes both ways be it a game getting tons of praise as well as the games that don’t.

I don’t care about or follow any of it.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

They called it Zelda Tears of The Kingdom because they knew how much tears therd be when people realized Nintendos made the best games ever

That got a smile out of me

I just ignore games media all together, and trend towards cynicism when games are about to be released. It makes for pleasant surprises. Getting whipped up into a hype doesn't generally do any good. I listen to people here and dont worry about it too much, and check steam reviews before I buy anything because I am generally a PC gamer, with a little bit of switch on the side (ToTK was the first physical game I have bought in ages, and Im not even sure if I am going to like it lol)

Steam reviews are unironically the only good review metric besides people arguing with one another on neogaf and v. Games journalists and (most) ecelebs are absolute cancer and just prove that we are well beyond the golden age of the internet and that smart phones ruined everything. There are some good ecelebs out there whom I really appreciate and am actually quite fond of so I wont blanket say ALL ecelebs.

Granted, even before we were in this modern era of games journalism on the internet, all we had was magazines. Really, the only way to remain as uninfluenced as possible is to just stick to gaming forums and try and be discriminative in the information you choose to take in.

Fuck it, I need to drink some more coffee, this was not anywhere near as coherent as I would like it to be.

Anyways, this was definitely a totk thread. I have my reservations about the game but holy moly I dont think I have ever seen a game create such a salt/white knight tornado as totk.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

Main issue I see right now is that professional media has become irrelevant and all information is relayed by youtube influencers who ARE biased towards whatever brand they like, and whose reviews ARE bought out by publishers, with free products and collectors, very nice review guides with example sentences you can use in your review etc...

Professional press was already a sad joke, but at least they weren't totally bought by publishers and had to be a little bit objective (there are still walls of ads on the websites). Still irrelevant though, didn't read a single pro review in more than 10 years. But influencers managed to be even less relevant, which is kind of incredible in some way.

Reality is that focus has shifted towards youtube, and influencers are the ones getting the views there. This is a superb opportunity for publishers to completely control whatever is being said about their new hardware and games. I still remember the guy who managed to get a Switch before launch and published a review about it (saying it was meh-ish at best, which is absolutely true in terms of hardware, and it was decently explained). It got taken down by Nintendo super fast.

So basically, everything that is preview and reviews before launch can be and will be bought out by publishers on this very large scene.

It turns out that the democratization of the internet was a huge mistake and giving people a platform doesnt change the fact that people are, on the whole, a rather disappointing lot.

This post was brought to you by my favorite game, RAID: SHADOW LEGENDS

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

What I value in games and my general opinion on them seems to be pretty at odds with what most big gaming outlet writers even notice or discuss so I just stopped paying attention for the most part. I still love a good review thread like the Redfall shitshow though, it's just fun is all.

 

[Cashon]

I think a part of what people in this thread are missing is that even simply sticking to forums like this, the opinions here are hugely influenced by media (media isn't just the big places, by the way, but also independent YouTubers). So even if you are trying to stick to places like NeoGAF, you will be subject to a majority who have been influenced into buying hype (which often seems like the real hobby of gamers, e.g., "Let's gooooooooooo!!!!!!!"). You're still getting second-hand influence, even if you dislike it.

I just wish places and people could be a little more logical and consistent with their critiques, criticisms, and praise.

 

[MagnesD3]

Humanity is the problem in this scenario so good luck with that.

 

[blacktout]

I think a part of what people in this thread are missing is that even simply sticking to forums like this, the opinions here are hugely influenced by media (media isn't just the big places, by the way, but also independent YouTubers). So even if you are trying to stick to places like NeoGAF, you will be subject to a majority who have been influenced into buying hype (which often seems like the real hobby of gamers, e.g., "Let's gooooooooooo!!!!!!!"). You're still getting second-hand influence, even if you dislike it.

And yet, here you are, offering your opinion and finding that a number of users agree with you. The fact that you hold a minority opinion hasn't resulted in your views being silenced or you being threatened or intimidated.

This is the best we can hope for from a free society. I'm not being sarcastic here. Overcoming groupthink and the tyranny of the mob is an ideal human civilization has been straining towards since prehistory.

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with hype, as long as dissenters can have their say. People want to be excited about entertainment. They want to see others excited. They want to believe in the greatness of a new experience, believing that helps them feel it themselves. This isn't like clickbait where people are being riled up into infinite, irrational anger. Hype feeds joy and joy is fucking rare.

I just wish places and people could be a little more logical and consistent with their critiques, criticisms, and praise.

Except that we're talking about art and entertainment here. Your enjoyment of these things are fundamentally emotional. Logic and consistency might enhance your appreciation for a game, but it doesn't dictate it. There are no universal standards of quality, and that's good, because otherwise we really would be living in the kind of oppressive one-opinion state that your OP imagines.

 

[Cashon]

Except that we're talking about art and entertainment here. Your enjoyment of these things are fundamentally emotional. Logic and consistency might enhance your appreciation for a game, but it doesn't dictate it. There are no universal standards of quality, and that's good, because otherwise we really would be living in the kind of oppressive one-opinion state that your OP imagines.

Whether art or math, saying that A is bad because of C, but B is good because of C, despite A and B basically being the same thing, is illogical and shouldn't be encouraged simply because art is subjective. I'm not saying we should all have the same opinions. I'm saying that our opinions should be consistent.

 

[blacktout]

Whether art or math, saying that A is bad because of C, but B is good because of C, despite A and B basically being the same thing, is illogical and shouldn't be encouraged simply because art is subjective. I'm not saying we should all have the same opinions. I'm saying that our opinions should be consistent.

I think I'm going to need a specific example of what you're talking about. A lot of things that seem irrational when reduced to an abstraction actually make perfect sense once you know all the particulars.

That's not to say some people don't hold wildly inconsistent opinions. In fact, we all do. But I feel like you've mostly imagined an exaggerated boogeyman here, possibly as a way to rationalize the fact that your opinions often fall outside of the consensus. We all like to see our own tastes as perfectly consistent and rational and those of others as inconsistent and easily influenced.

 

[danklord]

I think a part of what people in this thread are missing is that even simply sticking to forums like this, the opinions here are hugely influenced by media (media isn't just the big places, by the way, but also independent YouTubers). So even if you are trying to stick to places like NeoGAF, you will be subject to a majority who have been influenced into buying hype (which often seems like the real hobby of gamers, e.g., "Let's gooooooooooo!!!!!!!"). You're still getting second-hand influence, even if you dislike it.

I just wish places and people could be a little more logical and consistent with their critiques, criticisms, and praise.

That's the fun part of community. You get to lend your perspective while receiving different ones from different sources, including different levels of compatibility with your worldview. Seems like you're sensitive to the influence of paid media and hype, not unreasonable. It's about being critical, right? Everything shapes your perspective, whether you're aware of it or not.

To be truly objective you would have to consume no form of advertising media, jump into all content fresh with no preconceived biases, and then go into discussion with other content monks who walk the same righteous path.

 

[Cashon]

I think I'm going to need a specific example of what you're talking about. A lot of things that seem irrational when reduced to an abstraction actually make perfect sense once you know all the particulars.

That's not to say some people don't hold wildly inconsistent opinions. In fact, we all do. But I feel like you've mostly imagined an exaggerated boogeyman here, possibly as a way to rationalize the fact that your opinions often fall outside of the consensus. We all like to see our own tastes as perfectly consistent and rational and those of others as inconsistent and easily influenced.

I don't really care if my opinions are a part of the consensus or not; sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. I only care that the discourse around any given topic be governed by logic, which would inherently make it more consistent. For example, if one were to say that Super Metroid is the best game of all time, but can think of others games that do everything, or even just most things, better... How can it still be the best? What defines best should have some semblance of a metric, even if it's personal, and then ones opinions should be consistent with the logic of that metric.

An easy example is how reviews and, subsequently, opinions of one series can ignore a flaw while admonishing the same flaw in another series. Ubisoft games regularly get dinged for being too similar and formulaic, but other recent sequels (Tears of the Kingdom, God of War: Ragnarok, Horizon: Forbidden West, Ave Forza Horizon 5) largely get a pass despite being largely similar/nearly identical to their predecessors.

 

[small_law]

One of the positives to come out of social media and streaming is gaming journalism as we knew it 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, is dying. It's barely alive. That entire dust-up with Kotaku? Nobody younger than 30 knows what Kotaku is. When news broke that Vice was going under, I was shocked to learn that the Waypoint guys were hanging on. Good riddance.

There's no pretense of journalism anymore. Kotaku and Polygon pump out SEO garbage filtered through bots. It's all about clicks. For as much as streamers and YouTubers shill, at least they aren't cloaking themselves in the false authenticity of being "journalists."

If you don't believe me, search for Tears of the Kingdom help and look at the results. There they are at the top. Click through and notice how many ads you see. They're pornographers.

 

[NecrosaroIII]

True. Let's start a recommendation thread.

I'll start:

http://[URL]https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forbes.com/...games-never-died-they-have-just-been-ignored/

[/URL]

http://[URL]https://www.forbes.com/...-right-about-jrpg-being-a-discriminatory-term

[/URL]

Big fan of Ollie, though he missed the mark on DQ Builders 2

 

[Cacophanus]

True. Let's start a recommendation thread.

I'll start:

Ollie Barder

Ollie Barder's stories. I cover gaming in Japan as well as the pop-culture here.

www.forbes.com

Japanese Games Never Died, They Have Just Been Ignored

About ten years ago a curious change occurred in the Western gaming press, it seemed that anything Japanese was a byword for bad. This also had the effect of silencing the history of gaming that pre-dated it. Allowing for, among other things, derivative games to be heralded as innovative. Much [...]

www.forbes.com

‘Final Fantasy XVI’ Producer Naoki Yoshida Is Entirely Right About ‘JRPG’ Being A Discriminatory Term

In a recent interview, 'Final Fantasy XVI' producer Naoki Yoshida finally took the international gaming press to task for being discriminatory towards Japanese games.

www.forbes.com

Much appreciated, thanks!

Big fan of Ollie, though he missed the mark on DQ Builders 2

I finished the whole game, but it was just a horrible grind.

 

[Scotty W]

Someone’s been listing to Mencius Moldbug…