Support NeoGAF

[Drizzlehell]

I've been playing this thing for the past couple of days:


Great game. Really well made. Even though I've been routinely yelling at the screen during every other mission, I just can't help but come back to it every day and then just go "one more mission" every time I complete the previous one. Every campaign mission brings something new to the table and it really manages to keep things interesting, even if the story isn't.

But what's really frustrating about this game, and many other turn-based strategies for that matter, is that RNG aspect. Sometimes it feels like the game is deliberately fucking with me when it puts me against 50 enemy squads, and expects me to get through all of that in 3 turns to defend some objective at the other side of the map, while one of my guys is tripping over his feet while balancing a bunch of plates on sticks, and the other squad just slipped on a banana peel and their shoes fell off.

Fucking hell, sometimes I just feel like that guy from Saving Private Ryan who was patching up a wounded soldier, and then he got shot in the head anyway. Just give me a fucking chance you damn bastards.

And the funniest part is that I will eventually get through all of those missions and very rarely do I have to actually reload a save because whatever squads that I lose, I can just replenish for free in between missions. But whenever something goes wrong it just feels so damn frustrating and it always feels like that no matter the game. I dunno, maybe I should just keep it chill and accept the fact that I will keep facing some losses during every mission, but I hate losing, lol.

 

[Grildon Tundy]

I love 'em. They put me in a flow state like no other games outside of multiplayer with friends. While on the screen there might not be much going on, the action is offloaded into your mind as you think through all the information and permutations of possible actions you can take.

The X-COM reboot series
Into the Breach
The Civilization series
Invisible, Inc
The Shadowfall reboot series

Spent so many hours on these, and I wouldn't even say I'm good at them.

And if you're getting frustrated, Drizz, just save scum. Why not? I'm a save scummer, except when I'm doing an Ironman run. Getting things "perfect" is enjoyable for me. If mastery of a system is the end goal, then save-scumming is you as a player taking advantage of the meta-system and putting the game in its place lol

 

[Dacvak]

I've been wondering how BG3's "karmic dice" system works, because it seems to be a decent quiet solution to true RNG, which can oftentimes feel dumb and unfair. I kinda wish more games would implement something like that, so RNG doesn't completely break up the flow of the gameplay.

 

[Wildebeest]

Even in a game without RNG like chess, you are going to have losses, but the strategy is to make superior trades of units. I'd say that is a common feature of strategy games compared to something like RPG which are about not losing anything and always progressing upwards. Roguelikes are RPG dependent on stumbling on what you need to get the "perfect build" online more than trading losses intelligently, but that is still often a part of them.

 

[calistan]

The X-COM reboot series
Into the Breach
The Civilization series
Invisible, Inc
The Shadowfall reboot series

Those are all great. I also recommend Ghost Recon Shadow Wars for the 3DS, which was produced by Julian Gollop, who did X-Com.

I've been playing various old Advance Wars quite a lot lately, and that's got your turn-based stuff covered without the RNG. You can follow a guide and it will play out exactly the same every time.

 

[Drizzlehell]

And if you're getting frustrated, Drizz, just save scum. Why not? I'm a save scummer, except when I'm doing an Ironman run. Getting things "perfect" is enjoyable for me. If mastery of a system is the end goal, then save-scumming is you as a player taking advantage of the meta-system and putting the game in its place lol

That's a fair point. I haven't been doing that too much in this game in particular, though. I reloaded a save a couple of times when I was 100% certain that I'm about to lose a mission, even if it didn't happen yet, but otherwise I was just trying to roll with the punches. Mostly because reloading a save when it wasn't necessary would kinda feel like cheating, lol.

It's annoying when things don't go my way due to RNG but then it also kinda forces me to improvise and that also makes things more interesting, I guess.

 

[simpatico]

It's the main thing keeping BG3 at bay for me. I get that D&D has a big following, but for video games I'd much rather have Dragon Age Origins style combat. I slogged through a lot of D&D RPGs in the 00s, and I just don't think I have it in me to do it again. NWN2 was brutal. Loved the art and amazing story and scenarios, but the combat was pure doo doo for my tastes. I used guides and ultra save scumming just so I could soak up the story and atmosphere. Anyone who hasn't played Mask of the Betrayer should stop what they're doing now and do so.

 

[ReBurn]

I agree, they're only fun when you're winning

 

[Drizzlehell]

It's the main thing keeping BG3 at bay for me. I get that D&D has a big following, but for video games I'd much rather have Dragon Age Origins style combat. I slogged through a lot of D&D RPGs in the 00s, and I just don't think I have it in me to do it again. NWN2 was brutal. Loved the art and amazing story and scenarios, but the combat was pure doo doo for my tastes. I used guides and ultra save scumming just so I could soak up the story and atmosphere. Anyone who hasn't played Mask of the Betrayer should stop what they're doing now and do so.

Yeah, I bounced off of NWN2 because of the combat. At some point I entered a dungeon where everything was giving my entire party debuting effects and they all got super slow and couldn't hit anything and it was literally impossible to either run away or fight so I just gave up out of sheer frustration. I jumped at it because I wanted another game like KOTOR and it kinda looked like the same kind of game but in different setting (hell, even the engine was the same, I think) but boy was I wrong, lol.

 

[simpatico]

Yeah, I bounced off of NWN2 because of the combat. At some point I entered a dungeon where everything was giving my entire party debuting effects and they all got super slow and couldn't hit anything and it was literally impossible to either run away or fight so I just gave up out of sheer frustration. I jumped at it because I wanted another game like KOTOR and it kinda looked like the same kind of game but in different setting (hell, even the engine was the same, I think) but boy was I wrong, lol.

The story in MotB is really one of the greatest in all of gaming. Shame it's locked behind ass combat.

 

[Rentahamster]

I love them. Bring me the pain motherfuckers!

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

Didn't you know that Action-RPGs are the evolution of turn-based games?

Even Square-Enix has abandoned this outdated concept and embraced (the clearly superior) action combat with FF16.

Also QTE's are the future
You press a button, something awesome happens

Spoiler

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Turn based strategy videogames shouldn't be a thing.

It makes sense in board games and early, underpowered computer games, but we're long past the point of RTS games being the true version of the genre.

No one takes turns to move against opponents in battle/warfare. It's lame.

 

[Drell]

Turn based strategy videogames shouldn't be a thing.

It makes sense in board games and early, underpowered computer games, but we're long past the point of RTS games being the true version of the genre.

No one takes turns to move against opponents in battle/warfare. It's lame.

Just because a genre first existed because of some technical limitations doesn't mean this genre has to disappear when these said limitations doesn't exist anymore. It's like if you said books shouldn't exist anymore because Television was invented.

Also, on this specific case, RTS may please some pepole, but some others may like to take their time to establish a strategy.

 

[Danjin44]

Turn based strategy videogames shouldn't be a thing.

All the shit you post, this by far the most stupidest one….my god!

 

[Dice]

I love them. XCOM, Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, Disgaea (the life-eater, beware), Triangle Strategy, Shadowrun, Battletech, Civilization, Phantom Doctrine, Midnight Suns, etc. They're really great!

Then there are AP-based semi-action ones like Valkyria Chronicles and the games from Mimimi, that's a fun way to mix it up without going RTS.

There is another Warhammer one that interested me called Chaos Gate - Daemonhunters but I've heard mixed things. I guess it doesn't have RNG but it also doesn't have any passive attacks. People say it's really hard but I'm not sure I trust just anyone on that with a strategy game.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Turn based is great for mobile.
Come on iOS get some of these please.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

That’s why Into the Breach is peak gaming. Zero RNG, perfect information game.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Just because a genre first existed because of some technical limitations doesn't mean this genre has to disappear when these said limitations doesn't exist anymore. It's like if you said books shouldn't exist anymore because Television was invented.

Also, on this specific case, RTS may please some pepole, but some others may like to take their time to establish a strategy.

In warfare, you often have days, weeks, months, and years to develop a strategy.

Turn base gameplay removes time from combat which is literally cancer. Time should be a mechanic that game developers use to enhance the experience.

It's like telling Leonardo Da Vinci he can't use the color blue in his paintings. It's a primary color FFS!

 

[cartman414]

It's the main thing keeping BG3 at bay for me. I get that D&D has a big following, but for video games I'd much rather have Dragon Age Origins style combat. I slogged through a lot of D&D RPGs in the 00s, and I just don't think I have it in me to do it again. NWN2 was brutal. Loved the art and amazing story and scenarios, but the combat was pure doo doo for my tastes. I used guides and ultra save scumming just so I could soak up the story and atmosphere. Anyone who hasn't played Mask of the Betrayer should stop what they're doing now and do so.

DA: O was always kind of BG-lite.

 

[Hemingwayoffbase]

Another big vote for Into the Breach.

It’s incredible, and its whole gimmick is basically “what if Turn-Based Strategy, but no RNG and the player knows exactly what’s going to happen each move.”

It gets rid of the major issue you’re talking about.

 

[Woggleman]

No offense to any fans but they are just not my cup of tea.

 

[Futurematic]

Wait until you keep looking for the best version of this madness and wind up playing The Operational Art of War or Grigsby or some other old school war game.

Why yes I would like to play several hundred turns saving South Vietnam.

 

[Drell]

In warfare, you often have days, weeks, months, and years to develop a strategy.

Why does it have to be exactly like reality?

Turn base gameplay removes time from combat which is literally cancer. Time should be a mechanic that game developers use to enhance the experience.

So real time = automatically better?

It's like telling Leonardo Da Vinci he can't use the color blue in his paintings. It's a primary color FFS!

Except you're the one telling Da Vinci's art sucks because it's not animated in real time.

 

[Wildebeest]

It's the main thing keeping BG3 at bay for me. I get that D&D has a big following, but for video games I'd much rather have Dragon Age Origins style combat. I slogged through a lot of D&D RPGs in the 00s, and I just don't think I have it in me to do it again. NWN2 was brutal. Loved the art and amazing story and scenarios, but the combat was pure doo doo for my tastes. I used guides and ultra save scumming just so I could soak up the story and atmosphere. Anyone who hasn't played Mask of the Betrayer should stop what they're doing now and do so.

Obsidian had this problem with Pillars of Eternity. RTS is a genre that people just don't play as much any more, so controlling six D&D characters in real time is just brutal for them. Even back in the day, people would just do single character runs of Baldur's Gate just to make it more like Diablo for them, and that was in a time when many martial characters only had a basic attack and needed very little micro. Baldur's Gate 3 is much more to modern taste with the classic tabletop party of 4 with turn based combat.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

No one takes turns to move against opponents in battle/warfare. It's lame.

No one also flies dragons or transforms into an elephant Mario, yet you have it in games.

Your take gets shit/10.

 

[Filben]

I've been wondering how BG3's "karmic dice" system works, because it seems to be a decent quiet solution to true RNG, which can oftentimes feel dumb and unfair. I kinda wish more games would implement something like that, so RNG doesn't completely break up the flow of the gameplay.

Just the other day I continued playing Wasteland 3 with my brother cooperatively and the number of times we missed +80% hit chance shots, and even 90%, is baffling (even like two times in a row with 82% hit chance... all this in a single session of 2hours). I succeeded more often in BG3 with way lower chances of success both in combat and out of combat skill checks. Both success and failure felt pretty even, not tipping too much to either side.

 

[pochepiller2]

Turn based strategy game is a type of gameplay that encompass many genre. I play turn based wargame.

 

[darrylgorn]

Underrated gem:

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Why does it have to be exactly like reality?

RTS games are not "exactly like reality". Removing a key component of the idea hinders the true expression of the concept though.

So real time = automatically better?

Conceptually? Absolutely.

Except you're the one telling Da Vinci's art sucks because it's not animated in real time.

Da Vinci would prefer RTS to TB. I know it's true. You know it's true.

 

[manfestival]

Battlesector was a really fun game when I played it. Felt really like a good experience in between the tabletop and the computer medium.
The RNG aspect is really popular despite its frustrating element of getting "unlucky." Especially true for something like battlesector that just feels like a grid based version of the table top. Which that game also has the rng aspect since you have to believe in the heart of the dice.

 

[Hudo]

Game became playable after they added Necrons, imho.

I know this forum hates the Switch (according to other recent threads) but I very much can recommend Advance Wars 1+2: Re-Boot Camp. It's great.

 

[Drell]

RTS games are not "exactly like reality". Removing a key component of the idea hinders the true expression of the concept though.

And how is that "concept"

Conceptually? Absolutely.

Ok...

Da Vinci would prefer RTS to TB. I know it's true. You know it's true.

Did you ask him?

 

[pochepiller2]

Try playing this when your 13 ...