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[Arsenal]

Instead of coming up with new and creative ideas for people to do once they hit max level, he just basically copied and pasted the Everquest end-game template.

Just an honest question here. What kind of ideas do you think would work here?

While there are certainly a lot of aspects from EQ in the game - especially on the raiding side of things, but there are quite a few other activities to do as well. Its always good to have options. IMO, WoW has really blended a greater variety of things together much better than any other MMORPG to date.

Most normal games I play I am happy with 20-30 hours worth of gameplay. In WoW you are talking about hundreds of hours of gameplay just to get to 60, then you go into the thousands of hours if you talk about the "end game" activities. If you take a less cynical approach, its actually amazing that WoW entertains people for as long as it does without becoming stale But intrinsic in any kind of long term game like this are timesinks because there is simply no way you can create enough content for people to play through on a regular basis. Especially considering that so many of these people play an extreme amount of hours a week. How you approach the end game is very much dependent on the type of person you are and what you enjoy. Most people who continue to play WoW (or any MMORPG) for long periods of time usually do it for the social and/or competitive aspect of it. Raiding can be a semi-challenging activity that you can enjoy while hanging out with your friends for instance. Its a big reason why a lot of the end game type things start to focus on more group based things rather than solo activities. Since a single player RPG will have better gameplay than a MMORPG, it makes sense to me for a company like Blizzard to not try to duplicate that kind of experience and go in a different direction.

One thing for sure though, eventually EVERY game you play will get old no matter what game it is and it will be time to move on. That definitely doesn't mean the game sucks, it just means its time for something new. It always blows my mind how someone will play WoW for like 50 days, then go on to proclaim how bad the game is - hello, it entertained you for over 1000 hours! What kind of expectations do people have for these games? Blizzard may have some good devs, but they aren't GODs!

 

[Fusebox]

I love world PvP, we regularly run across 40 man Alliance raids heading into BRM and its on for young and old - some of the best fun I've had in WoW has been random world PvP.

 

[echoshifting]

Just an honest question here. What kind of ideas do you think would work here?

While there are certainly a lot of aspects from EQ in the game - especially on the raiding side of things, but there are quite a few other activities to do as well. Its always good to have options. IMO, WoW has really blended a greater variety of things together much better than any other MMORPG to date.

Name a few, please? Running the same handful of 5-mans over and over? Or would you perhaps be referring to the maddening PvP or rep grinds?

There is nothing to do in the level 60 game other than raiding. All other activities are timesinks and if you have that much time to throw away you might as well be raiding because it offers the best rewards and, to be honest, it can be pretty cool when your guild manages to topple a new boss or you finally get a new piece of gear.

Since a single player RPG will have better gameplay than a MMORPG, it makes sense to me for a company like Blizzard to not try to duplicate that kind of experience and go in a different direction.

...?

Don't get me wrong, WOW is a great game 1-59, and yes for a while at 60. But your comment makes no sense. Single player RPGs have better gameplay...so Blizzard should not duplicate them?

I don't think WOW should be emulating single player RPGs, either, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around your comment, here.

One thing for sure though, eventually EVERY game you play will get old no matter what game it is and it will be time to move on. That definitely doesn't mean the game sucks, it just means its time for something new. It always blows my mind how someone will play WoW for like 50 days, then go on to proclaim how bad the game is - hello, it entertained you for over 1000 hours! What kind of expectations do people have for these games? Blizzard may have some good devs, but they aren't GODs!

I think the thing that frustrates people (like me) isn't just that it is that fun for so long and then we get tired of it. It's more an issue of Blizzard squandering the awesome world they've developed on antiquated, EQ-style gameplay. The lore of WOW, and the art style they've gone with, are fantastic. But, ultimately, you get to level 60 and it's the same damn EQ-style game. It succeeds because, for many, the brand name and the world they've created are enough (for now)...and...let's be honest...a lot of their subscribers either never played EQ to begin with, or that kind of gameplay has become such an intrinsic part of their life that they don't know what they'd do if they didn't have an MMO to grind away every moment of their life into. I know that the standard response here is that, really, grinds are the only way to keep a MMO going, and large-group timesinks are the best way to go about that, but quite frankly, that's bullshit. It's a tried-and-true methods, yes. Doesn't mean it's the only way to do it.

But, honestly, Blizzard has never been about taking risks, so it's hard to expect much more from them. They are a company that takes a great idea developed by somebody else, takes their favorite aspects of that idea, wraps it in a great layer of

Spoiler

Games Workshop inspired

lore and publishes it. It's just too bad that they've become The Makers of WoW...I think that's another reason people resent the game so much. Blizzard is responsible for some of the most entertaining, beloved and addictive games of the past year and a half. It's heartbreaking to see that they've become the WOW machine.

 

[DarkAngelYuna]

Yes you can. This isn't DAoC. I've got a 60 alliance hunter, 59 alliance rogue, a level 22 horde hunter, and a level 15 horde shammie all on the same server.

Pst, we're talking non-carebear servers here.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

Tigole didn't set the direction for WoW (though he has a hand in it now), he simply molded much of the content (from very early on too). The direction and general design for the game still came from the Blizzard veterans and lead developers like Rob Pardo. Many of whom were all EQ raiders as well, which is how they got to know Tigole.

For some of them, EQ wasn't their first MMO either. I know that some of the ex-Blizzard North folks that frequented the original Ogden's Tavern board went into UO when it released, such as the Schaeffer brothers if I remember correctly. So they weren't just mesmerized with EQ because it was their 'first kiss' with the genre, so to speak. They just genuinely loved raiding gameplay.

 

[Bloodwake]

Honestly, nothing ever really sold me on WoW.

I dunno... maybe if I tried it now that I have time... but I can still remember how it was just really dull to me... the entire experience. Especially the quests... most of them seemed to be collect-a-thons, and those REALLY turn me off.

 

[Shouta]

Endgame content for almost every MMO comes down to the same thing when you talk about the PVE side of it. I can't think of any single one that does something totally different. It's all a retread of the same things. I also think you're not going to get one that's totally different until the focus of the development team is different. It just boils down to how well it's implemented. I'd give WoW some more time before you really jump on its back because it is still a relatively new MMO compared to some of the other ones around now.

Actually, there is one thing that the MMO I usually play (FFXI) is adding in the next update that I found amusing. We're going to be able to raise our own Chocobos. We have NPCs that we can level up and "raise" but this is going to be something else. Can't wait to have my own giant blue/yellow/green/red/black bird to ride around on. :lol

 

[etiolate]

When your game is fun, you don't need time sinks and aritificial time extensions to keep people playing. Just make the game more fun, make it faster and give it more variety. Improve pvp and combat. Really, if you have real good PVP and constant new content you don't need to use tricks to keep people playing month after month so you can bleed them dry.

Also the whole idea of 'alliance is for pve' and 'horde is for pvp' is retarded if pvp is set up as faction vs faction.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Endgame content for almost every MMO comes down to the same thing when you talk about the PVE side of it. I can't think of any single one that does something totally different. It's all a retread of the same things. I also think you're not going to get one that's totally different until the focus of the development team is different. It just boils down to how well it's implemented. I'd give WoW some more time before you really jump on its back because it is still a relatively new MMO compared to some of the other ones around now.

Actually, there is one thing that the MMO I usually play (FFXI) is adding in the next update that I found amusing. We're going to be able to raise our own Chocobos. We have NPCs that we can level up and "raise" but this is going to be something else. Can't wait to have my own giant blue/yellow/green/red/black bird to ride around on. :lol

see thats what I mean, something other than uber raiding to make the game interesting.


I know it sounds the simsish but even housing or I dont know mount breeding/creation/tending? would make something to do.

the closet they get to it is farming for a few item mats that are actually useful endgame (and are actually worth more as an item, then just the sum of its mats). or because the item is BOP crafted.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Pst, you can't have characters on both Horde and Alliance on the same server :O It won't let ya.

I know. I'd be on a different server.

 

[Ferrio]

 

[ManaByte]

Pst, you can't have characters on both Horde and Alliance on the same server :O It won't let ya.

On a PVE (or RP) server you can. It's only PVP servers that have that restriction.

 

[DarkAngelYuna]

On a PVE (or RP) server you can. It's only PVP servers that have that restriction.

Mhm.. we covered that again in the thread already.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Time for me to retire my "ManaByte" joke character. He's not even amusing in his out-of-touchness anymore.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Blizzard has always, without exception, gone the route of "take the most succesful model for this kind of game, polish it to hell, release and support it" with their products. That they would take the best PvE endgame model (EQ) and run with it is no suprise and I dare say they'd be foolish to do anything else. The PvE endgame has had some issues as Blizzard dropped the ball with AQ40 (and never really fixed it IMO) and the CC rep grind for non-raiders is evil, evil stuff. The lack of new instanced content for people who don't want to raid is really weak too, and their pitiful Dungeon 2 effort was really, really lame.

That being said, they are learning. The expansion content looks more varied in PvE content, and there's going to be another solid progression of expansion endgame content for us catassers. Naxxramus is fantastic as well. My main real complaint is that if you like PvE and can't raid, there's really not too much tougher stuff you can cut your teeth on and push yourself with if you've already done what's out there.

PvP, on the other hand, is totally FUBAR'd. They broke their number one design rule of taking the most successful thing and polishing it and making it better, though I think they had to do so out of necessity because their servers couldn't handle the stress of something along the lines of Dark Age of Camelot's PvP system, which is still without peer. Instead they went with a system that was basically Quake or Unreal Tournment mixed with their retarded Diablo ladder system. It's been a complete failure-the effort to grind to top rank is truly unhealthy on most servers, and the fights are completely without variation or novelty after enough runs. Then they unbalanced it to hell by not having BG-specific stat caps on gear, which would have at least equalized things some (though a PUG is still going to get rolled by anyone with skill and organization).

PvP in the game has been a real failure. My fiance and I, both longtime Camelot veterans (and her UO for years before that) agree that the system needs a complete overhaul.

As long as you're willing to raid PvE and enjoy that, I can recommend the game. It's seriously just a novelty for a few months if you don't have the time or desire to play that kind of game.

 

[Swat]

Blizzard has always, without exception, gone the route of "take the most succesful model for this kind of game, polish it to hell, release and support it" with their products. That they would take the best PvE endgame model (EQ) and run with it is no suprise and I dare say they'd be foolish to do anything else. The PvE endgame has had some issues as Blizzard dropped the ball with AQ40 (and never really fixed it IMO) and the CC rep grind for non-raiders is evil, evil stuff. The lack of new instanced content for people who don't want to raid is really weak too, and their pitiful Dungeon 2 effort was really, really lame.

That being said, they are learning. The expansion content looks more varied in PvE content, and there's going to be another solid progression of expansion endgame content for us catassers. Naxxramus is fantastic as well. My main real complaint is that if you like PvE and can't raid, there's really not too much tougher stuff you can cut your teeth on and push yourself with if you've already done what's out there.

PvP, on the other hand, is totally FUBAR'd. They broke their number one design rule of taking the most successful thing and polishing it and making it better, though I think they had to do so out of necessity because their servers couldn't handle the stress of something along the lines of Dark Age of Camelot's PvP system, which is still without peer. Instead they went with a system that was basically Quake or Unreal Tournment mixed with their retarded Diablo ladder system. It's been a complete failure-the effort to grind to top rank is truly unhealthy on most servers, and the fights are completely without variation or novelty after enough runs. Then they unbalanced it to hell by not having BG-specific stat caps on gear, which would have at least equalized things some (though a PUG is still going to get rolled by anyone with skill and organization).

PvP in the game has been a real failure. My fiance and I, both longtime Camelot veterans (and her UO for years before that) agree that the system needs a complete overhaul.

As long as you're willing to raid PvE and enjoy that, I can recommend the game. It's seriously just a novelty for a few months if you don't have the time or desire to play that kind of game.

QFT. Myself and many others simply re-rolled new alts at 60. The end-game was very exciting and pretty cool at first, but after one too many runs of the same raids, with the same jerk-asses, and the diminishing returns (ie. 50 runs and still no Beaststalker Mantle? - oh well, I'll try 50 more times) it got old really fast.

WoW's awesome from 1-59 the *first* time, and for a little while after that, unless you totally have a hard on for the same raids ad-neauseum. And even if they introduce new ones, it's the same damn thing. I want more variety, new worlds, and new content geared for people like myself who don't want to (and can't) devote tons of time to being part of an elite uber-cool raiding guild.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Just an honest question here. What kind of ideas do you think would work here?

While there are certainly a lot of aspects from EQ in the game - especially on the raiding side of things, but there are quite a few other activities to do as well. Its always good to have options. IMO, WoW has really blended a greater variety of things together much better than any other MMORPG to date.

Most normal games I play I am happy with 20-30 hours worth of gameplay. In WoW you are talking about hundreds of hours of gameplay just to get to 60, then you go into the thousands of hours if you talk about the "end game" activities. If you take a less cynical approach, its actually amazing that WoW entertains people for as long as it does without becoming stale But intrinsic in any kind of long term game like this are timesinks because there is simply no way you can create enough content for people to play through on a regular basis. Especially considering that so many of these people play an extreme amount of hours a week. How you approach the end game is very much dependent on the type of person you are and what you enjoy. Most people who continue to play WoW (or any MMORPG) for long periods of time usually do it for the social and/or competitive aspect of it. Raiding can be a semi-challenging activity that you can enjoy while hanging out with your friends for instance. Its a big reason why a lot of the end game type things start to focus on more group based things rather than solo activities. Since a single player RPG will have better gameplay than a MMORPG, it makes sense to me for a company like Blizzard to not try to duplicate that kind of experience and go in a different direction.

One thing for sure though, eventually EVERY game you play will get old no matter what game it is and it will be time to move on. That definitely doesn't mean the game sucks, it just means its time for something new. It always blows my mind how someone will play WoW for like 50 days, then go on to proclaim how bad the game is - hello, it entertained you for over 1000 hours! What kind of expectations do people have for these games? Blizzard may have some good devs, but they aren't GODs!

I've said this before many times, and they won't listen. I've also seen many times any and all WoW threads get sprinkled with griping from burnouts. It's like being there for your friend drinking and bitching after dumping his girlfriend; "Im thru with women! Women aint nothin' but hurt!" as you glance over girlfriend whos not been a pain and you love being with. Just let them get it out of their system.

Jealousy and desire does strange things to people.

 

[Swat]

I've said this before many times, and they won't listen. I've also seen many times any and all WoW threads get sprinkled with griping from burnouts. It's like being there for your friend drinking and bitching after dumping his girlfriend; "Im thru with women! Women aint nothin' but hurt!" as you glance over girlfriend whos not been a pain and you love being with. Just let them get it out of their system.

Jealousy and desire does strange things to people.

I don't think it's that cut and paste. I think everyone who's played WoW (ie. current and former players) can agree it's probably one of the best and most addicting games ever made. However, lots of people see a split down the middle when you're stuck at the end of the road.

You've had an amazing, incredible journey traversing many new and strange lands, acquiring and training new abilities, and growing from a level 1 bump in the road into a mighty level 60 force to be reckoned with. Now here you are, in all your awesome glory. You made it to 60. You've had a blast. You see a fork in the road.

Turn Left for PvP, Turn Right for Faction Grinding, Continue forward for Raids.

You look around for another path, but you don't see any. So you head backwards down the path from where you came, and roll another alt. And another. Another level 1 bump in the road. Because you enjoy the ride to 60 more than those 3 options you are given.

Raiding is fun every once in a while, and so is PvP. Hell, faction grinding could be ok from time to time on a slow day. But when the exploration stops, the training/levelling your character stops, and all you have is the "next best" armor piece, some people get disappointed.

Of course there are the raiding types who will be content doing the same raid over, and over, and over - and that's good for them. They enjoy it, and they enjoy the rush of getting better loot. They are satisifed, so it's a win-win situation for these folk, and they find it hard to understand why everyone else doesn't like raiding as much as they do.

It's simply a conflict of personality types, and what you personally expect from MMO's.

 

[Arsenal]

Name a few, please? Running the same handful of 5-mans over and over? Or would you perhaps be referring to the maddening PvP or rep grinds?

The fact is that every single type of progressive game mechanic that has ever been devised can be referred to as a "grind". MMORPGs like WoW are primarily about progressive game mechanics. The simple solution is not to grind it. That may mean you never get to the end, but you should do what you find fun. PvP, Rep, quests, crafting, raiding, economics, item collection, exploration, special events, etc - all those things can be fun to a degree and certain people take more pleasure out of them than others. Not to mention, if you find a good group of people to hang with, any of those things can be fun and give you something to do while you socialize.

There are actually tons of other MMOs out there with vastly different types of play styles, but they just are not very popular - especially in comparison. It is simply impossible for WoW to be all things to everyone, if you take it for what it is, and enjoy its strong points, it can be a pretty entertaining game. Its never going to be the game to end all games though, there will always be things that other games will do better.

I don't think WOW should be emulating single player RPGs, either, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around your comment, here.

Most people who use your argument tend to say then enjoy the game from 1-59 but don't enjoy the "end game" once they hit the cap. I can understand this because the game certainly does change, but I also think that to try to expand the game like it is from 1-59 to be neverending is a futile excercise. Character progression is hard to scale, in depth quests are completed much faster than the devs can create them, leveing can quickly become a grind if it stretches to infinity, etc. These type of game mechanics simply work better if you have a set destination that you arrive at and then are essentially DONE. This is how single player RPGs work, it is how WoW 1-59 works. Blizzard would simply not be able to extend this portion of the game to infinity with the same quality of gameplay that levels 1-59 have.

I know that the standard response here is that, really, grinds are the only way to keep a MMO going, and large-group timesinks are the best way to go about that, but quite frankly, that's bullshit. It's a tried-and-true methods, yes. Doesn't mean it's the only way to do it.

Everyone says this, but they sure are short on ideas

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I don't think it's that cut and paste. I think everyone who's played WoW (ie. current and former players) can agree it's probably one of the best and most addicting games ever made. However, lots of people see a split down the middle when you're stuck at the end of the road.

You've had an amazing, incredible journey traversing many new and strange lands, acquiring and training new abilities, and growing from a level 1 bump in the road into a mighty level 60 force to be reckoned with. Now here you are, in all your awesome glory. You made it to 60. You've had a blast. You see a fork in the road.

Turn Left for PvP, Turn Right for Faction Grinding, Continue forward for Raids.

You look around for another path, but you don't see any. So you head backwards down the path from where you came, and roll another alt. And another. Another level 1 bump in the road. Because you enjoy the ride to 60 more than those 3 options you are given.

Raiding is fun every once in a while, and so is PvP. Hell, faction grinding could be ok from time to time on a slow day. But when the exploration stops, the training/levelling your character stops, and all you have is the "next best" armor piece, some people get disappointed.

Of course there are the raiding types who will be content doing the same raid over, and over, and over - and that's good for them. They enjoy it, and they enjoy the rush of getting better loot. They are satisifed, so it's a win-win situation for these folk, and they find it hard to understand why everyone else doesn't like raiding as much as they do.

It's simply a conflict of personality types, and what you personally expect from MMO's.

That's actually not far off from what I think. Alot of people got into this going "WHOA. A MMO that doesn't degenerate into masochistic grinding to level" then got to 60 and they didn't take to metering their time in scheduled doses and changing playstyle while in game to utilizing that time for raiding/attuning/mats gathering in order to keep advancing, or they did...just too much and got burned out. It's hard as hell for me to see this looking from my perspective (where I get bored mindless within 15 minutes of grinding XP/rep/$$$ and quit to go ganking/XTREEM MINING). However, I do see the fast, enjoyable leveling in WoW being both a blessing and a curse, pulling in people who would never touch one, and who get put off by 60 and the jealousy of looking at 1337 geared out characters.

 

[Fusebox]

It's like being there for your friend drinking and bitching after dumping his girlfriend; "Im thru with women! Women aint nothin' but hurt!" as you glance over girlfriend whos not been a pain and you love being with. Just let them get it out of their system.

Amen. I'm starting to notice there's nothing worse than an ex-WoW player, hell I'd rather light up a filterless lucky strike right in front of an ex-smoker than get an ex-WoW player started on why they stopped playing these days.