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[Clockwork5]

Content ID is not new and it is getting worse!


They are fucking over people!
They are falsely flagging people's content (from content they are allowed to use by the copyright holder, to content that has been mis IDed and content that has been uploaded to the content ID system by someone that does not own the copyright!) and sending the ad money to the wrong people!



What part of "Youtube is fucking over lots of people that are not infringing copyright!" do you not understand?!

Don't respond to me if you are going to flat out ignore the facts!

As I said, if you want to use copyrighted material YouTube may not be the place to post your vidoes. Regardless of anything else.

Also, those of you who think YouTube wants to be or has the ability to be in the business of determining what videos to label as "fair use" out of the millions on its website are simpletons. If disputed, that is a decision for the courts. Not the copyright holder, not the video creator, and certainly not YouTube.

 

[Ragingnight]

dumbfoundead had his songs flagged lol.

 

[galvatron]

Ofcourse they aren't backing down.

Nice!

Minowa (little guy) made the giant tap out...YouTube had better hope this isn't a fitting analogy.

 

[Jim Sterling]

It's a broken shitty fucking system that has allowed people to falsify claims and effectively steal money. Devs and musicians are getting flagged for their own content. Only those making content seem to be punished. Companies (or assholes masquerading as entities) seem able to file claims without fear of reprisal.

This long, LONG stopped being a debate about whether or not Let's Players are doing something wrong, or "Hooray this one LP'er I like might be affected, this is good." There are tons of things going wrong with YouTube's broken, shitty, fuck-awful system.

 

[zma1013]

THQ might end up making more money in death than they did in life.

 

[FinalStageBoss]

Of course they aren't backing down. Google doesn't give a fuck.

 

[Palette Swap]

I'm dumbfounded when I read people who apparently see no faults with a system so flawed in its implementation that it will lock content holder out of their own videos.

 

[boogie2988]

Just like everyone else I'm getting exhausted by this topic and I want to just kind of put my final word here on this thread and hopefully not talk about it as much for a little while over the holiday season.

Yes, most people (including the lawyer I consulted) feels that gameplay is tranformative and perfectly legal under current copyright law.
Yes, most of the uses of small snippets of copyrighted materials (soundtrack bits, trailer clips, etc) have been interpreted by lots of users to be within fair use (same way it is on your radio, tv bits, etc)
No none of this has been decided in a court, unless you count the court of popular opinion.

Largely what youtube has decided to do is err on the side of the copyright holders because they do not want to be the ones that take this to court. They sit in an awkward position after that whole viacom thing. To refresh you memory on that; they got locked into a legal battle with viacom, had a judge rule that they were not responsible for anything a user uploaded, and kind of ran on that for a while.

Now whoever is in charge at Youtube is clearly afraid that the MPAA/RIAA/Viacom and their ilk are ready to strike again. I believe this to be a truth as that industry is dying, painfully and awfully.

They are doing what I believe to be considered their "Due diligence" so that if/when they go to court they can simply say "we have been fighting as hard as we can for as long as we can." and hopefully get it thrown right out of court.

This sucks for a lot of reasons.
1) the system they're using is broken and doesnt work very well causing all kinds of chaos
2) it isnt manned by real people so when they are wrong you are left arguing with a robot
3) its too heavy handed. even for a 'zero tolerance' policy as they have, its enforcing copyright enforcement not even the owner of the copyright wants enforced
4) they're unwilling to listen to consumers, copyright holders, or anyone else.
5) the system is easily exploitable and is being exploited for profit by some folks (Hi Indmusic!)

Gamers are largely just caught in the crossfire here. Most gaming developers WANT people to play their games on youtube. In fact a lot of them try to HIRE us to do so. They want the free press. At the same time there are a rare few (Hi Nintendo!) who are not on this side of the model and want to use these tools to enforce their copyright.

Long story short, Youtube is scared shitless of the death rattle of the MPAA/RIAA and is willing to bow out until its over. I don't blame them. The problem is the gaming industry is not part of that monster and is getting wrecked because of it.

 

[Froli]

If you wanna use copyrighted material, Idk, how about you start your own site...

LOL..what a poster.

 

[M3d10n]

then stay on youtube? pretty sure the videos getting flagged are the ones getting monetized.

You might not monetize, but whoever claims copyright on your video will.

 

[Osiris]

You might not monetize, but whoever claims copyright on your video will.

So what?

If you are not monetizing and they are, you lose nothing.

Long story short, Youtube is scared shitless of the death rattle of the MPAA/RIAA and is willing to bow out until its over. I don't blame them. The problem is the gaming industry is not part of that monster and is getting wrecked because of it.

They are equally worried about losing safe harbor provisions and hence the automated system, the more human review they put into the process, the more that harbor wall is breached, hence the "stay the course" the loss of that protection would be devastating to Youtube and any of their attempts to have it a revenue stream, much greater than the loss of a few, even high-profile, Youtube personalities and viewers.

They are between a rock and a hard place, and are going to follow the path of least resistance.

 

[Zombie James]

So what?

If you are not monetizing and they are, you lose nothing.

People will be making money on a piece of content they had no hand in creating. So yeah, you would lose.

 

[Calabi]

So what?

If you are not monetizing and they are, you lose nothing.

Yeah if the CEO of a company or board members share all the profits with themselves you as an employee lose nothing.

This whole system is designed as a corporate share out, corporate profits stay within the family. Society as whole gets poorer, money go upwards or to those willing to con as opposed to the people that are creating the content. Its amazing how many people are so content with being screwed.

 

[Osiris]

People will be making money on a piece of content they had no hand in creating. So yeah, you would lose.

Read the posts I was responding to, that was not a point in this particular thread of the discussion.

 

[M3d10n]

So what?

If you are not monetizing and they are, you lose nothing.

Indeed, but some people might want who gets the ad money, even if they decide to forfeit it.

BTW, I wonder happens if you cram content from several different owners into a single video?

 

[Osiris]

Indeed, but some people might want who gets the ad money, even if they decide to forfeit it.

BTW, I wonder happens if you cram content from several different owners into a single video?

I would imagine several different owners would likely make claims and Google/Youtube would split the proceeds accordingly as a best case scenario, more likely that Google/Youtube decide it's not worth the hassle and pull the video.

 

[boogie2988]

So what?

If you are not monetizing and they are, you lose nothing.



They are equally worried about losing safe harbor provisions and hence the automated system, the more human review they put into the process, the more that harbor wall is breached, hence the "stay the course" the loss of that protection would be devastating to Youtube and any of their attempts to have it a revenue stream, much greater than the loss of a few, even high-profile, Youtube personalities and viewers.

They are between a rock and a hard place, and are going to follow the path of least resistance.

interesting stance and well said. thank you.

 

[YoungFa]

People will be making money on a piece of content they had no hand in creating. So yeah, you would lose.

How do I get in on that? Can I just make an account, claim everything and let the money flow?

 

[Osiris]

interesting stance and well said. thank you.

I'm not saying I don't feel for those affected, I do, nor am I arguing for the sake of "devil's advocate", I truly do see more sides to this than simply "little man good, big company evil".

The changes have had multiple effects, some of those affected are truly, frustratingly innocent and being caught by a system that is weighed against them.

However others have, either knowingly or unwittingly assigned rights to their material to a third party and are seeing the repercussions of this and learning now exactly what rights they have assigned away. Some of this assignation of rights are normal publishing (music) business and involve hefty advance sums, lawyers and thick contracts.

Yet others like the TuneCore/INDMusic situation are more sketchy, I feel assigning themselves rights through a ToS amendment is going to heavily bite them in the ass. (There''s a reason copyright assignments/licensing is done by lawyers with good old fashioned negotiated paper contracts, done so that traps that TuneCore/INDMUsic have walked slap bang into can be avoided.)

The whole mix of affected users creates more confusion than it clears, but the fact is the issues and causes are mixed, and situations are similar in appearance only, not in the base facts when the different issues are looked at in more detail.

 

[EatinOlives]

this really does seem like a great chance for someone to step in and create a gaming-focused "youtube"

Well many Youtube people have their videos in other services as well. I know Angry Joe has a formal website with the videos uploaded through a different service (I can't remember its name at the moment, I just know it's not Vimeo), and has been part of Thatguywiththeglasses for a pretty long time (not sure if he still is).

Undoubtedly, though, Youtube is their bread and butter. It's ridiculous that Google is being so stupid about this whole debacle, but they know nobody but the major IP-holder corporations will ever be able to touch them, which is why they're doing this shit in the first place. Deplorable.

 

[Eusis]

Long story short, Youtube is scared shitless of the death rattle of the MPAA/RIAA and is willing to bow out until its over. I don't blame them. The problem is the gaming industry is not part of that monster and is getting wrecked because of it.

Well, they don't seem to be in the greatest position either, but with a few exceptions they probably stand to gain more than lose just because of the nature of games, whereas the MPAA only stands to lose and the RIAA just has to hope you like a song enough to buy it afterwards to listen on the go. Though there's a lot of grey areas about actual effect on sales for all of them, just in the case of Youtube and games it's a lot lighter than darker.

 

[boogie2988]

I also wanted to add that from another thread and my twitter I have been hearing a lot of "Actually this IS about gaming."

I can't say for sure either way. I sincerely doubt that's the case because the majority of gaming companies are backing the youtuber here and doing everything they can to scramble and make sure their games are still getting played for the free press.

Maybe Youtube did get sick of Gaming dominating a large part of their website and is ready to try to kill it, but its just not logical considering Pewds is sitting at the number 1 spot and is the cause of a ton of revenue, income, and good press for their site.

If it turns out to be the case though, we'll know when youtube has to take a further step to smash gaming because the majority of the developers are simply not having this and are going to do everything they can to support the content creators on this one, so far

 

[Eusis]

I also wanted to add that from another thread and my twitter I have been hearing a lot of "Actually this IS about gaming."

Admittedly there could be a lot of misinformation that people have been sticking to, but it can take just a few people or companies to ruin the party for everyone else. Rockstar and Naughty Dog could easily have gone "whoa, we spent a lot of money on those scenes, we can't just let those stream without compensation at a minimum" and we obviously have Nintendo being Nintendo. And it does seem YouTube is aggressive about getting ads going given they approached Notch about getting money for Minecraft streams so a lot of companies when approached could've gone "yeah sure why not" without fully evaluating or caring about potential fallout.

 

[xn0]

I think this is a perfect opportunity for some website outside of the US to set up a similar model to Youtube's previous policy and invite gamers to post their videos on their site while sharing the ad revenue. If people like pewdiepie, boogie2988 can still make a living on ad revenue from another site that would allow others to do so as well and you'd see a quick migration which would definitely make Youtube rethink their decision.

PS: Huge fan Boogie, it is great to see you posting on gaf.

 

[viveks86]

Minowa (little guy) made the giant tap out...YouTube had better hope this isn't a fitting analogy.

Yeah I already knew that when I posted it.

 

[TheD]

They are equally worried about losing safe harbor provisions and hence the automated system, the more human review they put into the process, the more that harbor wall is breached, hence the "stay the course" the loss of that protection would be devastating to Youtube and any of their attempts to have it a revenue stream, much greater than the loss of a few, even high-profile, Youtube personalities and viewers.

They are between a rock and a hard place, and are going to follow the path of least resistance.

But having a dispute system that has the option of stating the content ID match is a "false claim" or holding the pay out till a video's content ID dispute is resolved is not going to affect that.

 

[Red Mage]

Good, they have no reason to back down and they shouldn't have to.

Good on Youtube.

Where were you guys in the thread where Konami was getting their own videos flagged?

 

[Nibiru]

So since that won't budge, where can we share game capture videos/commentaries? I mean, they've gotten so much hate over this, and if they don't budge now, they never will.

Where should one go? Don't even care about monetizing.

Blip has been suggested.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

I also wanted to add that from another thread and my twitter I have been hearing a lot of "Actually this IS about gaming."

I can't say for sure either way. I sincerely doubt that's the case because the majority of gaming companies are backing the youtuber here and doing everything they can to scramble and make sure their games are still getting played for the free press.

Maybe Youtube did get sick of Gaming dominating a large part of their website and is ready to try to kill it, but its just not logical considering Pewds is sitting at the number 1 spot and is the cause of a ton of revenue, income, and good press for their site.

If it turns out to be the case though, we'll know when youtube has to take a further step to smash gaming because the majority of the developers are simply not having this and are going to do everything they can to support the content creators on this one, so far

Which is how it should be. Free press, good press, and so on are great for companies. And companies should be fighting for such things. Even if the game is bad, it makes at least for interesting entertainment and information.

For me, I think YouTube and its system believes that it is above the actual owners the content, even if that seems fucked up. I can see within a month or two that this will spiral down into a complete mess of lawsuits and pure chaos.

Thanks for posting on here though, by the way Boogie .

 

[Osiris]

An interesting, and refreshingly honest, Mea Culpa from one videogame music composer was posted on reddit, that reinforces what I was saying earlier about some of these claims being due to misunderstanding and lack of understanding by the original content creators, The whole thing is worth reading but I'll put some highlights here:

Your Videos Are Flagged For Copyright Infringement And It's All My Fault

...

It's important that this information be available to those out there who may be a bit confused as to who is to blame for a majority of the Content ID claims occurring.

I work as a game composer and am only one of many who have fallen victim to some wildly inappropriate obfuscation of intent on behalf of third-party firms who did not appropriately communicate how they intended to help us.

It's my fault nevertheless for not reading the fine print. So I apologize. But more usefully, I offer you this perspective from the other side of the issue:

...

To be fair, it’s all my fault: I signed up. I failed to read the fine print that may have eloquently explained just how this miracle would be accomplished. I assumed that the process would be invisible, or at the very least private, for my clients and those affected.

Instead, YouTube’s innocent-until-proven-guilty approach threw a spotlight on everything, putting my clients in the nasty position of looking like they had unlawfully used my music.

Certainly, some people out there don’t have licenses for using my music in their videos, but I have no quarrel with them. I’m too small for their trespass to be making a meaningful impact on my income, and frankly I’m pleased that they found the music enjoyable enough to feature.

In other words, this entire situation seems to have all been the result of poorly communicated strategies, and frankly YouTube doesn’t need more bad press after the comment change. I have no problems with that, but others have raised valid discussion points more eloquently than I.

What concerns me is this flagging mess, because it’s explicitly the result of myself and hundreds of other music creators grasping at a will-o-the-wisp in the tangled woods of making a living from art.

...

Let me be honest with you: it’s a matter of principle. I didn’t sign up thinking I’d be paying rent from this money. The whole system is designed for far bigger fish than I to profit.

I signed up because, as an artist, I am entitled to attribution whenever my work is used, especially when that use is without a license. I welcome people using and enjoying my music, just as I myself enjoy the videos they create with them. I just want people to be able to find out who wrote it.

But this brute force method is not what I had in mind, and until YouTube wrangles its partners into a methodology that’s less thermonuclear, I need to forfeit that ad income and align myself with my clients, my listeners, and my admired game & video producers.

Because I don’t make money from ads. I make money from writing good music for good people, and maintaining happy relationships with all of them.

So to those of you who have received notice on your videos as a result of my music: I apologize. Sincerely.

Chances are, many of my fellow composers are in a very similar position of having unwittingly contributed to this blitz, and while I can’t speak for all of them I’m confident that most of us did not intend for it to go like this.

I agree that it's likely that many claims are due to misunderstanding after assigning rights / signing up for services.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Now would be a great time for someone to launch a decent competitor to YouTube

indeed, our voices need to be heard. we need a Soapbox.

 

[encephalon]

Again, Nico Nico Douga should take advantage of this now that they have an English language ver. of their site. At least for uploaders who aren't in it to monetize.

 

[Cmerrill]

Is this why we can't upload to YouTube from the ps4? All our videos would be flagged?

 

[Eusis]

For me, I think YouTube and its system believes that it is above the actual owners the content, even if that seems fucked up. I can see within a month or two that this will spiral down into a complete mess of lawsuits and pure chaos.

Thanks for posting on here though, by the way Boogie .

Probably what does have to happen before this is changed given a law overhaul isn't very likely and even if it happened this would still be playing it safe. If successful fake claims are hurting the actual content creators, AND they have the backing to sue over it, then they'd be forced to change things I'd imagine. Even if it's just a little bit of loosening up or at least easier appeals.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Where were you guys in the thread where Konami was getting their own videos flagged?

Why would they show up in a thread that would make their misguided opinions look painfully idiotic? Come on, now.

 

[viveks86]

Is this why we can't upload to YouTube from the ps4? All our videos would be flagged?

The thought has crossed my mind a couple of times. We could be reading too much into this, but may be Sony and Youtube have been stuck in indefinite negotiations, or Sony has given up altogether and doesn't plan to release the feature until there is a policy change.

 

[SonyToo!™]

It's YTs hamfisted way they are going about flagging content that is the main problem imo.
Too many false claims which go unchallenged because for 1 it can be confusing if whoever is making the claim is legit, 2 YT will wield the banhammer for false copyright claim challenges.

Besides there have been plenty of videos with no monetisation getting flagged nowadays too.

It doesn't help that google will send messages to G+ accounts which many ppl don't use, just like a guy on another forum had his account terminated because he missed the messages sent to his G+ account that he never used.

 

[ChiliManiac]

cobanermani456 is now on twitch

bump for update in OP

 

[Eusis]

Besides there have been plenty of videos with no monetisation getting flagged nowadays too.

I kinda suspect this is sort of a secondary aim, by JUST adding ads rather than pulling down it means they can make some profit off of videos that were going ad free before, even if the copyright owner money's going to someone who doesn't have a legitimate right to the work. It'd explain why Youtube's been proactive about some of this rather than just reactive, like offering to have Minecraft videos bring money in to Notch.

 

[Dryk]

The people that originally wrote copyright would be spinning in their graves if they saw it was being used to siphon money away from musicians like this.

 

[davepoobond]

An interesting, and refreshingly honest, Mea Culpa from one videogame music composer was posted on reddit, that reinforces what I was saying earlier about some of these claims being due to misunderstanding and lack of understanding by the original content creators, The whole thing is worth reading but I'll put some highlights here:



I agree that it's likely that many claims are due to misunderstanding after assigning rights / signing up for services.

while i can agree that these tertiary companies are taking "advantage" of his lack of knowledge, they are far from nefarious, really.

he doesn't understand anything about how YouTube works with monetization, yet he expects to "tap into" unlicensed use of his music. However, the monetization of said music goes to someone already, such as a content creator. So where does "his share" come from? Where was it going before? What did he think was happening when people "made money" from YouTube?

He should have kept his account open, because now YouTube is just going to put "his funds" into some intermediary account touched by no one waiting for him to claim them, which in the meantime Google uses 100% of while they "hold it" for him.





also, its funny that people suggest all these guys move away from YouTube, as if YouTube didn't build them up to what they were -- they will be replaced with other people on YouTube eventually. They didn't get popular because of their own web sites, otherwise they would have hosted their own stuff and sold their own ads on their own site.

 

[JaseC]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=736114

 

[The One and Done™]

Good.

 

[Skid 4 Dead]

EA will still win worst company in American, though.

 

[alstein]

EA will still win worst company in American, though.

I think Google has a shot now with the NSA stuff and this. Google would definitely care more, as it would hurt their branding more.

People expect EA to be shitty.

If Google was just flagging things legitimately, no problem. The fact that folks with their own original stuff are getting flagged, that's the real issue. Youtube is being way too friendly to copyright trolls.