• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

"Secret to the Casual", another one by Malstrom.

monchi-kun said:
even you are guilty of oversimplification. hardcore gamers hate the same things you mention...if they are done POORLY.

Diner Dash had tutorials that showed you how to play but they spread it out...only popping up when a new mechanic or challenge needs to be learned.

This article reads as if the hardcore audience was a bunch of impatient babies. "I WANNA HAVE FUN NOW!" But it should actually be "if the first part of your game is fucking boring/annoying for an hour, it's broken." See: Zelda TP.
 

border

Member
Kilrogg said:
his analyses are far deeper than those of your average GAFfer, methinks, and his knowledge of the history of the industry is profound.
Who cares about how he compares to the average GAF'er? The average GAF'er is not that good at analysis either. I wouldn't consider "LOL Megaman series died becuz it had tutorials" to be particularly profound analysis. Most of this article is based around the ridiculous cynical assumption that any developer who makes a complex game is doing it out of his own egotism, and for the sake of his own self-aggrandizement. The very premise of his analysis his is completely busted and unsubstantiated. It's a collection of foul, unrealistic stereotypes in an article that hilariously also warns against stereotyping.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Dachande said:
There's such a unified cry against him because he appears to be vehemently against the notion of "art" in games, which is a movement I think most people here (with some exceptions) would like to see make some progress.

Geez, at least try and read his article properly. He's not against the notion of art in videogames. He says that the super hardcore has got the notion of art in videogames wrong. He says that games like Super Mario Bros., which are regarded as classics but weren't praised by the super hardcore computer players at the time, are now regarded as art, and that's because of their gameplay, fun, and accessibility. That's all.

His other site that he links to on the blog makes me angry as well - there are entire sections dedicated to how Nintendo and the Wii will "wash clean those filthy hardcore gamers". He sounds like a Nintendo fanboy who has been crouched down for years going, "you'll see, you'll all see," and now they're finally raking in the cash he's jumping up and down on the sofa like a mad mountain monkey with his dry, humourless articles that drone on about how casual games will take over the world.

There are three problems with this: first, you ignore that he himself WAS a hardcore way back in the day. At least, that's what he says in several articles. So it's not like he doesn't know what it is to be a hardcore.

Second, you're criticizing style over substance. He's got his own style, and, frankly, I'm not always that fond of it, but if you go beyond the words, there are arguments to find.

Third, he's got a very precise definition of what is a hardcore. To him, a hardcore is someone who values technology first and foremost, and every aspect that makes them feel like they're cool, enjoying great "art", great cutscenes, great cutscenes, and so on and so forth, while not realizing they're just playing a freaking game, not enjoying a painting or a movie.
 

Aeris130

Member
monchi-kun said:
even you are guilty of oversimplification. hardcore gamers hate the same things you mention...if they are done POORLY.

Diner Dash had tutorials that showed you how to play but they spread it out...only popping up when a new mechanic or challenge needs to be learned.

Having to sit through a tutorial is always worse then not having to sit through one. You can split it up to minimize the crappy-effect, but it still won't beat an imaginary version of the game that doesn't require any tutorials at all (and if this isn't possible, then perhaps you as a game designer needs to take a closer look on your game).

Same for the rest of the points.

Less text > Too much text
Limited cutscenes or ingame engine > 10 minute cinemas
Immediate fun > The game really picks up around the second half

The article is pretty fucking extreme, but I don't see how anyone could argue with this.
 

avatar299

Banned
border said:
Who cares about how he compares to the average GAF'er? The average GAF'er is not that good at analysis either. I wouldn't consider "LOL Megaman series died becuz it had tutorials" to be particularly profound analysis. Most of this article is based around the ridiculous cynical assumption that any developer who makes a complex game is doing it out of his own egotism, and for the sake of his own self-aggrandizement. The very premise of his analysis his is completely busted and unsubstantiated. It's a collection of foul, unrealistic stereotypes in an article that hilariously also warns against stereotyping.
Did you read it with the intent to bash it? The premise was simply "simple games succeed on a more consistent basis than diffucult games" The egotism, while unfounded for everyone isn't unheard of and I wouldn't call it unrealistic.

Sounds like you just attached yourself to one part and won't let go. Yes, he insulted the guys at Epic Games. I'm sorry
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
Aeris130 said:
The article is pretty fucking extreme, but I don't see how anyone could argue with this.

But GAF, being what it is, is comprised of LOTS of hardcore, precisely the kind Malstrom likes to bully in an extreme way. The kind of hardcore that complain about Diablo 3's art direction to the point that they feel the need to DEMAND it to change via a petition to Blizzard. So, it's no surprise he's not welcome here, saved by a few of us.
 
Aeris130 said:
Having to sit through a tutorial is always worse then not having to sit through one. You can split it up to minimize the crappy-effect, but it still won't beat an imaginary version of the game that doesn't require any tutorials at all (and if this isn't possible, then perhaps you as a game designer needs to take a closer look on your game).

Same for the rest of the points.

Less text > Too much text
Limited cutscenes or ingame engine > 10 minute cinemas
Immediate fun > The game really picks up around the second half

The article is pretty fucking extreme, but I don't see how anyone could argue with this.

It's more about GOOD DESIGN than the things you mentioned. What you listed before (Tutorials, Text, Cutscenes, Pace of fun) are just elements of design. A game that has less text, no tutorials, limited cutscenes, immediate fun are nothing if the overall design is bad.
 

avatar299

Banned
monchi-kun said:
It's more about GOOD DESIGN than the things you mentioned. What you listed before (Tutorials, Text, Cutscenes, Pace of fun) are just elements of design. A game that has less text, no tutorials, limited cutscenes, immediate fun are nothing if the overall design is bad.
He didn't say this was the quick fix to make a AAA game
 

Aeris130

Member
monchi-kun said:
It's more about GOOD DESIGN than the things you mentioned. What you listed before (Tutorials, Text, Cutscenes, Pace of fun) are just elements of design. A game that has less text, no tutorials, limited cutscenes, immediate fun are nothing if the overall design is bad.

Having to fall back on excessive use of text, cinemas and tutorials in a game (not a book, movie or comic) is a direct result of bad design. Sometimes having them is bad design itself (like NightS, a game that has a 10 minute obligatory voiced tutorial despite only using 3 buttons, stick included, just to teach the player to move in two directions), but that's hardly the norm since most designers aren't that stupid.
 

border

Member
Kilrogg said:
To him, a hardcore is someone who values technology first and foremost, and every aspect that makes them feel like they're cool, enjoying great "art", great cutscenes, great cutscenes, and so on and so forth, while not realizing they're just playing a freaking game, not enjoying a painting or a movie.
That's kind of a shitty definition though, isn't it? There's a large segment of gamers that are just interested in fun experiences that are not very artsy but at the same time are fairly complex compared to the single-screen minigame collections that Malstrom likes to push.

He's created a straw man, and takes pleasure in ceaselessly beating the shit out of it.

avatar299 said:
Did you read it with the intent to bash it? The premise was simply "simple games succeed on a more consistent basis than diffucult games" The egotism, while unfounded for everyone isn't unheard of and I wouldn't call it unrealistic.

No -- from the very beginning he qualifies games, teachers, books etc as either:

a.) made for the purpose of entertainment and pleasing the user
b.) for the egotistical purpose of aggrandizing the speaker/designer/author

His dumb assumptions about the motivations of game designers is really just a symptom of this original busted and unjustified assumption. I don't think the average FPS level designer is thinking, "Holy shit this game is gonna make me famous!"

Once again, Malstrom pummels straw men to his heart's content.
 

Kilrogg

paid requisite penance
border said:
That's kind of a shitty definition though, isn't it? There's a large segment of gamers that are just interested in fun experiences that are not very artsy but at the same time are fairly complex compared to the single-screen minigame collections that Malstrom likes to push.

He's created a straw man, and takes pleasure in ceaselessly beating the shit out of it.

Errrm... Did he assume those gamers don't exist? What you describe is what he calls core gamers. Hardcore gamers are the vocal minority, always clamouring for more cinematic experiences and more shaders. So, when he's mocking the hardcore, he's mocking those people, and those people only. Once again, that's basically those who signed the petition against Diablo 3's art direction, whom I find ridiculous to no end, but hey, that's just me.
 

avatar299

Banned
border said:
That's kind of a shitty definition though, isn't it? There's a large segment of gamers that are just interested in fun experiences that are not very artsy but at the same time are fairly complex compared to the single-screen minigame collections that Malstrom likes to push.

He's created a straw man, and takes pleasure in ceaselessly beating the shit out of it.
And those people are on forums around the clock crying about the death of video games thanks to Nintendo.

Yeah there is a shade of grey, just like in everything else, but the majority of "hardcore gamers" are tech nuts who value tech over gameplay.


border said:
No -- from the very beginning he qualifies games, teachers, books etc as either:

a.) made for the purpose of entertainment and pleasing the user
b.) for the egotistical purpose of aggrandizing the speaker/designer/author

His dumb assumptions about the motivations of game designers is really just a symptom of this original busted and unjustified assumption. I don't think the average FPS level designer is thinking, "Holy shit this game is gonna make me famous!"

Once again, Malstrom pummels straw men to his heart's content.
The average designer should be a.) but it's increasingly becoming b.) That is the problem.

I really don't see how you can make this argument 2 days after dyack. After seeing Cliffy B. and Itagaki be plastered all over the 360 like their rock stars. Yes the avearge designer is an average designer, but is that who he wants to be? I don't think so considering what he could be
 
monchi-kun said:
It's more about GOOD DESIGN than the things you mentioned. What you listed before (Tutorials, Text, Cutscenes, Pace of fun) are just elements of design. A game that has less text, no tutorials, limited cutscenes, immediate fun are nothing if the overall design is bad.

Exactly. There are plently of games that handle tutorials, lots of text, etc really well. I mean, I don't think anyone complained when they were playing through the tutorial for Portal, and that is because of how well it was handled.
 

Deku

Banned
Jesus what a long read. Got through the first few paragraphs.

I'm not agreeing too much here, the only point being that I cannot define hardcore by story and that the stories of most hardcore games are indeed subpar and not very good. I'm never interested in any of these games for cinematics.
 

border

Member
avatar299 said:
after dyack. After seeing Cliffy B. and Itagaki be plastered all over the 360 like their rock stars. Yes the avearge designer is an average designer, but is that who he wants to be? I don't think so considering what he could be
Are Dyack, CliffyB and Itagaki the norm or are they outliers? Even within the superstars of game development you can find people that are genuinely humble, thoughtful and imaginative. The idea that people get into this industry for fame is pretty laughable, considering that even the most famous developers are unknown outside of gaming culture. "Who is Shigeru Miyamoto?" would probably be an $800 answer on Double Jeopardy. This industry is a terrible place for any content creator looking for fame or for riches.

avatar299 said:
Yeah there is a shade of grey, just like in everything else, but the majority of "hardcore gamers" are tech nuts who value tech over gameplay.
I don't think that's the case at all, unless you're like Malstrom and you simply define "hardcore" as nothing more than a tech obsession. If you simply look at people who spend a lot of time gaming and trying out different games and playing fairly complex games, I don't think you will see a rabid tech obsession. Most of the more commonly praised "hardcore" games from the past year were far from the cutting edge of tech.
 
While I do agree with a lot of points made in this article, it has a distinct "all or nothing" approach to it, which turns me off.

The industry as a whole should avoid whittling itself down to a focused beam and games should be made with the user in mind, but the industry has to be accepting of varied styles and tastes; the same philosophy, even done expertly well, cannot please everyone.
 

Aeris130

Member
Linkzg said:
Exactly. There are plently of games that handle tutorials, lots of text, etc really well. I mean, I don't think anyone complained when they were playing through the tutorial for Portal, and that is because of how well it was handled.

It still boils down to these things having to be "handled". Portal is great design personified, which leads to little or no use of tutorials, cutscenes and text (not the other way around). You have the basic awsd movement, and a button to pick stuff up. Then you have one (1) weapon that does one thing. (To top it off, they give you 30 seconds to find this out yourself, simply amazing.)

End of story.

Sure, you could probably do a lot more cool stuff in the game if you had access to 10 different kinds of portals (through 8 different weapons). You could distort reality, manipulate gravity etc. Also, having more enemies would be nice, plus a few ballistic arms to deal with them. And a little more fleshed out enviroment, plus a story. And multiplayer. Cutscenes and...wait, this is bad design, and it will take a shitton more of it to teach the player how to appreciate this masterpiece to 100%.
 

avatar299

Banned
border said:
Are Dyack, CliffyB and Itagaki the norm or are they outliers? Even within the superstars of game development you can find people that are genuinely humble, thoughtful and imaginative. The idea that people get into this industry for fame is pretty laughable, considering that even the most famous developers are unknown outside of gaming culture. "Who is Shigeru Miyamoto?" would probably be an $800 answer on Double Jeopardy.
You can find humble people everywhere and if they weren't imaginative they wouldn't be here. The question is do designers want to make great games for the sake of it, or do they want to impress people.

It's increasingly becoming apparent that's it's more about impressing your peers over making a good game. Just look at how games are covered. Publications and news sources, fueled largely by the hardcore gamers focus more on tech, specs, visuals sound, etc etc over the actual gameplay many times.

Also, dev teams despite getting larger seem to have made no headway in expanding the tastes of their staff. It's still a largely male dominated, geek oriented focused world

border said:
I don't think that's the case at all, unless you're like Malstrom and you simply define "hardcore" as nothing more than a tech obsession. If you simply look at people who spend a lot of time gaming and trying out different games and playing fairly complex games, I don't think you will see a rabid tech obsession. Most of the more commonly praised "hardcore" games from the past year were far from the cutting edge of tech.
Really. How much preview coverage did Crysis get compared to Portal. Gears compared to Viva Pinata.

A lot of more simple, less cuttinmg edge games that recieved praised were after the fact they came out and wowed everyone. The gaming media, and the hardcore were forced to recognize those games, not the other way around.

In fact I would say it was the core and casual gamers that first praised those games
 

TimeKillr

Member
monchi-kun said:
games that made you fail quickly rarely needed tutorials. the act of failing is in and of itself a tutorial.

i died a lot in Mario, Megaman, Zelda, Metroid...but i kept playing because i loved this new entertainment medium. The key word here is LOVE. By definition, do you think casual gamers LOVE their games? Or is this just a passing fling for them? Between one the two people who LOVES games or LIKES them, which one is more likely to be a game developer?

I work in casual games. I have been, for about 5 years now.

Let me tell you something: casual players don't like to fail. You don't mind failing, because you're a gamer. You were a kid, you didn't feel like you were wasting your time.

A casual gamer, on the other hand, doesn't like to fail. If he fails, he has to feel in his gut that while he failed, he gained something. And they can't learn how to play the game by failing - their first time they fail, they'll give up on the game, because they feel they just wasted their time.

As for that article, it's as crappy as the others I've seen on GAF. It's from someone who puts big words and examples and diagrams and such in large articles in an attempt to show off how smart he is, but ultimately fails in his argumentation because he CLEARLY does not understand the casual market.

When people say casual gaming is killing the industry, it's simply because there's more money to be made in the casual market than the hardcore market. Publishers are, first and foremost, businessmen. Businessmen go where the money is to be made (obviously!). Casual games are low-budget, low-risk affairs. When something is low-budget and low-risk, there's inherently more money to be made. We've already started to see a shift in the industry - EA and Ubi, the two western giants, each now have quite large casual games divisions. If those divisions start making much more money than their hardcore divisions, you can be SURE that the hardcore divisions will start to produce less and less games, and eventually stop producing them altogether because they're high-budget, high-risk affairs.

Oh, and a few more things:
1- 99% of casual games have tutorials. Not only tutorials, but MASSIVE gameplay helpers.
2- Almost no casual game has cinematics or an epic storyline. But they're unnecessary in casual games, so it's not a valid argument. Do you seriously think someone could wrap a storyline around Tetris?
3- Is Tetris fun within a minute? What about Bejeweled? And exactly what makes Bejeweled fun, anyway?
 

DCharlie

Banned
how are games gonna get made if hardcore gamers die out?

we are in transit.

the casuals are the hardcore
and the hardcore are the casuals.
sort of.

it's been happening for a while.

For a few years now, the "hardcore" have been obsessed with graphics and spec wars.
The casuals , basically, don't care and will play games for the game play.

well, not strictly true. But a lot of gaf arguments about PS3/X360/Wii all have the pungent odor of "casual gamer think".
 
He has quite a few good points about game design, and the philosophy behind them. One thing ive always loved about Miyamoto is how he wants to bring people joy with his games- when designing Mario games, he pictures people smiling while playing them. And it works- SMG always make me smile inside.

But according to him, most JRPGs are pretty much broken. In a way i agree when a game like Suikoden V takes ~5 hours to really get moving. Then theres games like MGS4 who have huge cutscenes. While theyre great cutscenes for the most part, i have to agree again- i love the Half Life series because there are no cutscenes- all dialogue is in game, and from your perspective. This is so much more effective, and something that only videogames as a medium can do well. As for tutorials, i have to agree- if a tutorial is neccessary, its because youre game isnt very intuitive. The best Nintendo games are easy and accessible on the surface, but have considerable depth. That is perhaps Nintendos greatest design asset- the simple yet deep formula. Nintendos learning curves are always perfect.
 

border

Member
avatar299 said:
You can find humble people everywhere and if they weren't imaginative they wouldn't be here. The question is do designers want to make great games for the sake of it, or do they want to impress people.
So are Dyack, Itagaki, and Cliffy the norm or are they outliers? You have sidestepped the question, but just look at people like Levine, Newell, Kaplan, Wright, Hennig, the Bioware doctors, Ted Price, etc. You probably couldn't even name the lead designers on the Halo series and GTA series because they are just that low-profile. Yet at the same time they head up the biggest franchises that the HD era has to offer. Most of the leaders in this industry aren't looking to become rockstars. Even an outspoken figurehead like Jaffe has remained relatively humble and has shunned the spotlight in favor of doing the sort of work that is most enjoyable to him.

Really. How much preview coverage did Crysis get compared to Portal. Gears compared to Viva Pinata.

What does preview coverage have to do with the game's actual reception? The Orange Box ran on technology that was over 3 years old at the time of release, but at the end of the day it will chart better than Crysis, regardless of the chart (NPD or Metacritic).

I don't even know why you bring up Viva Pinata, as any follower of Malstrom should probably consider it a huge failure. It's got a tutorial that goes on for ages, a convoluted control/UI system, and enough TEXT that there is an in-game encyclopedia. It should be the banner for the death of "hardcore" games. Graphically it was almost peerless though, so by your theory it should have gotten excellent reviews and coverage. Why should a cutesy animal simulation should get as much coverage as a gritty shooter in the first place?
 

Azelover

Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
TimeKillr said:
I work in casual games. I have been, for about 5 years now.

Let me tell you something: casual players don't like to fail. You don't mind failing, because you're a gamer. You were a kid, you didn't feel like you were wasting your time.

A casual gamer, on the other hand, doesn't like to fail. If he fails, he has to feel in his gut that while he failed, he gained something. And they can't learn how to play the game by failing - their first time they fail, they'll give up on the game, because they feel they just wasted their time.

As for that article, it's as crappy as the others I've seen on GAF. It's from someone who puts big words and examples and diagrams and such in large articles in an attempt to show off how smart he is, but ultimately fails in his argumentation because he CLEARLY does not understand the casual market.

When people say casual gaming is killing the industry, it's simply because there's more money to be made in the casual market than the hardcore market. Publishers are, first and foremost, businessmen. Businessmen go where the money is to be made (obviously!). Casual games are low-budget, low-risk affairs. When something is low-budget and low-risk, there's inherently more money to be made. We've already started to see a shift in the industry - EA and Ubi, the two western giants, each now have quite large casual games divisions. If those divisions start making much more money than their hardcore divisions, you can be SURE that the hardcore divisions will start to produce less and less games, and eventually stop producing them altogether because they're high-budget, high-risk affairs.

Oh, and a few more things:
1- 99% of casual games have tutorials. Not only tutorials, but MASSIVE gameplay helpers.
2- Almost no casual game has cinematics or an epic storyline. But they're unnecessary in casual games, so it's not a valid argument. Do you seriously think someone could wrap a storyline around Tetris?
3- Is Tetris fun within a minute? What about Bejeweled? And exactly what makes Bejeweled fun, anyway?

Well, you're invested in that, that should say quite a bit, but I don't totally disagree with you.

There's a great casual market that's true, a part of it may stay that way, but there's also a huge move happening here which is upstreaming, that is being ignored largely even though it's incredibly important, just like the Wii was at one point.

Upstreaming can continue to grow the industry by making casuals into core customers, who could buy several games instead of just a couple. These people can and are moving up, this doesn't mean the casual gaming market will die altogether. We're in a phase of aggressive growth right now for casual gaming because many facets of this market were untapped, but soon it's gonna stop. It's gonna become more stable as people move up, or even shrink over time. I believe it's naive to assume these people will always stay casual, many will eventually leave the so-called "casual" gaming one way or another, they'll move up or they'll move out. One form of mass entertainment can only keep the interest going so long without evolving or changing, eventually people will become disinterested.

You say Malstrom doesn't understand the casual market, and that may very well be, but I say it's better to know about the market period, I'm not a big fan pigeonholing. For all it's worth, he was one of the few people in the world to have predicted the success of the Wii while providing good argumentation for it. All these so-called "experts" with credentials were caught completely off-guard by the Nintendo as we all know, regardless of them being completely open about their strategy from day one. It was not rocket science that the Wii was gonna be a success, all you needed was proper information on Nintendo's strategy and knowledge on the true nature of our market as a broad entity. One thing that's for sure is that the market, specially now, will not stay as it is, it will keep changing and casual gaming is in that larger context.
 
I think it's important to understand that Malstrom approaches every of his articles with a business-oriented perspective. In that context, Malstrom is absolutely correct on what is and isn't successful.
 

KTallguy

Banned
TimeKillr said:
Let me tell you something: casual players don't like to fail. You don't mind failing, because you're a gamer. You were a kid, you didn't feel like you were wasting your time.

A casual gamer, on the other hand, doesn't like to fail. If he fails, he has to feel in his gut that while he failed, he gained something. And they can't learn how to play the game by failing - their first time they fail, they'll give up on the game, because they feel they just wasted their time.

I have seen this and I agree 100%.
This is the biggest problem when focus testing casual games. People just give up immediately if they lose once.

If you create a game with any sort of challenge built into it, people dismiss it as a waste of time.

Therefore games are tuned so that you can't lose. At all. It's really depressing.

I feel the fun of a "game" is learning a system, figuring out how to surmount obstacles, that rush when you win something.

But so many people just want that quick rush. They don't want to earn it.
I think that's a fault of people's personalities more than anything.

The best games that can avoid the above and take advantage of the situation are ones that can hook the player early on and allow them to win and get addicted, but then eventually turn on the heat and force the player to think. By the time they get there, they are into the game too much to quit, so they actually take a few minutes to examine how they are playing and adapt. And that's when they can really take something valuable away from their playing experience.
 

avatar299

Banned
border said:
So are Dyack, Itagaki, and Cliffy the norm or are they outliers?
They are becoming the norm. How many lead designers can you name from the 16-bit era or even the N64-PS1 days.

Designers are becoming more and more like celebrities in this industry.

border said:
You have sidestepped the question, but just look at people like Levine, Newell, Kaplan, Wright, Hennig, the Bioware doctors, Ted Price, etc.
Thanks for proving my point.

border said:
You probably couldn't even name the lead designers on the Halo series and GTA series because they are just that low-profile. Yet at the same time they head up the biggest franchises that the HD era has to offer.
border said:
Jason Jones. That's not really a secret, he has been a big part on all the games

border said:
Most of the leaders in this industry aren't looking to become rockstars. Even an outspoken figurehead like Jaffe has remained relatively humble and has shunned the spotlight in favor of doing the sort of work that is most enjoyable to him.
I didn't say they entered to become that. i said that many designers now work to show off tech and impress peers, not necessarily to create the best experience for the broadest audience.



border said:
What does preview coverage have to do with the game's actual reception? The Orange Box ran on technology that was over 3 years old at the time of release, but at the end of the day it will chart better than Crysis, regardless of the chart (NPD or Metacritic).
Games people want receive more coverage. Not actually rocket science.

You said pigeonholing hardcore gamers into loving tech is unfair because they have often heaped praise onto smaller games. That's true, but they only heap praise onto those games after they come out. Pre-release hardcore gamers are more interested in the more tech oriented games.

Just look at the forums here, I highly doubt the threads for Knytt stories match up to Crysis

border said:
I don't even know why you bring up Viva Pinata, as any follower of Malstrom should probably consider it a huge failure.
it is, in terms of interface design but it is an example of hardcore gamers focusing on tech over game play. Viva pinata was horribly designed, but arguably was as fun a game as gears of War. Which sold more? Which received more pre and post coverage?

border said:
Why should a cutesy animal simulation should get as much coverage as a gritty shooter in the first place?
:lol

KTallguy said:
I have seen this and I agree 100%.
This is the biggest problem when focus testing casual games. People just give up immediately if they lose once.

If you create a game with any sort of challenge built into it, people dismiss it as a waste of time.

Therefore games are tuned so that you can't lose. At all. It's really depressing.

I feel the fun of a "game" is learning a system, figuring out how to surmount obstacles, that rush when you win something.

But so many people just want that quick rush. They don't want to earn it.
I think that's a fault of people's personalities more than anything.
How many casual games d you actually play. Maybe if the extent of your knowledge is Nintendogs i can see your point, but if you look at the entire field, i don't see how you can really make the argument that causal gamers quit as soon as they fail.
 
KTallguy said:
I have seen this and I agree 100%.
This is the biggest problem when focus testing casual games. People just give up immediately if they lose once.

If you create a game with any sort of challenge built into it, people dismiss it as a waste of time.

Disagreed 100%. This is exactly what Malstrom was and is talking about, how the hardcore think they know about downmarket gamers when they don't, and make games they think will be successful but aren't. If after failing the player does not want to continue, the game isn't a good game to them. Period. If after failing the player wants to proceed and overcome, it is a brilliant game. A classic. THIS is the type of game developers should be making IF they want to have longevity and develop a brand and a loyal consumer base like Nintendo or Blizzard. To suggest that downmarket gamers don't want to fail at all is cop-out. People continue to swing the bat if they strike. People continue to take shots if they miss the basket and so on.
 

Mamesj

Banned
Kilrogg said:
But GAF, being what it is, is comprised of LOTS of hardcore, precisely the kind Malstrom likes to bully in an extreme way. The kind of hardcore that complain about Diablo 3's art direction to the point that they feel the need to DEMAND it to change via a petition to Blizzard. So, it's no surprise he's not welcome here, saved by a few of us.


You know, we can't dissect the hardcore population with simple demographic stereotypes.

Maybe if he wrote in a more accessible, easy-to-understand, and organized style, some people would give a shit about his article. When I scroll and see things about Iwata's parable about the king and the blah blah blah, I start to think this Malstrom guy is some kind of parody of the devout fan who invests way too much time into analyzing his hobby.

I'm imagining a little kid playing wii sports and getting a kick out of swinging the Wii remote to throw a punch in Boxing, while his crazy uncle, with a huge salt-and-pepper beard is sitting back screaming "yes! yes! I hath stumbled upon thy secret to the casual markets! It is as Iwata prophetically declared when recounting the parable of the 3 wise men and the serf!"

WHO FUCKING CARES. write clearly and concisely or you've already lost your audience...this is the year 2008, not 1918, and we're in America talking about videogames, we're not predicting the downfall of the bourgeoisie in the post-industrial era.

and those are my final thoughts for this Malstrom internet persona.
 

TimeKillr

Member
Azelover said:
Well, you're invested in that, that should say quite a bit, but I don't totally disagree with you.

There's a great casual market that's true, a part of it may stay that way, but there's also a huge move happening here which is upstreaming, that is being ignored largely even though it's incredibly important, just like the Wii was at one point.

Upstreaming can continue to grow the industry by making casuals into core customers, who could buy several games instead of just a couple. These people can and are moving up, this doesn't mean the casual gaming market will die altogether. We're in a phase of aggressive growth right now for casual gaming because many facets of this market were untapped, but soon it's gonna stop. It's gonna become more stable as people move up, or even shrink over time. I believe it's naive to assume these people will always stay casual, many will eventually leave the so-called "casual" gaming one way or another, they'll move up or they'll move out. One form of mass entertainment can only keep the interest going so long without evolving or changing, eventually people will become disinterested.

You say Malstrom doesn't understand the casual market, and that may very well be, but I say it's better to know about the market period, I'm not a big fan pigeonholing. For all it's worth, he was one of the few people in the world to have predicted the success of the Wii while providing good argumentation for it. All these so-called "experts" with credentials were caught completely off-guard by the Nintendo as we all know, regardless of them being completely open about their strategy from day one. It was not rocket science that the Wii was gonna be a success, all you needed was proper information on Nintendo's strategy and knowledge on the true nature of our market as a broad entity. One thing that's for sure is that the market, specially now, will not stay as it is, it will keep changing and casual gaming is in that larger context.

I'm "invested" in it - I work in casual games. Not by choice mind you, but it's just the path that opened up to me. And I'm doing my best in designing games that can appeal to both the casual and the less-casual. I'm not making ANY assumptions that my latest game, The Price Is Right, is going to appeal to any sort of hardcore gamer. Neither is my next project, for that matter.

Where our opinion differs is upstreaming. I truly do not believe that casual gamers will "move up" to becoming core customers. The one thing Malstrom got right in his article was the analogy to books. Bestsellers are often dumbed-down books with easy entertainment values. But where, in that market, have you seen upstreaming? Casual gaming is more or less in the same position - there are a lot of casual, very accessible games. Those games sell, quite a bit, and believe me they make a SHITLOAD more money than 90% of AAA titles. Yet casual gamers aren't moving up. Many bought the Wii. Most of these people do not buy additional titles. It always amazes me that we don't see bigger numbers, considering the market share the Wii currently possesses. On a production standpoint, the Wii is a newer Gamecube. 3rd party game sales are, on the most part, nonexistent (save exceptions like Cooking Mama and Carnival Games). Whenever you look at sales charts, the only games that do sell are Nintendo titles. Nintendo titles are sold mostly to Nintendo fanatics and moms that still do find Nintendo to be family-friendly. They know if they see the Nintendo label on a game, it'll be non-violent, non-sexual and generally non-threatening to their values.

I foresee several scenarios for the future of casual (and gaming) in general.

1- Statistically, casual gamers are women aged 40 to 60. They constitute the largest group. I do not realistically see how these gamers will ever move on up to "core" content; not quite casual, but not quite hardcore. Most younger players are already core players. They find casual games to be too simple for their tastes. As casual gamers age, they keep on playing casual games, but as time goes on the market slowly shrinks as their interest wanes (middle-aged women seriously do not have a high attention span concerning their entertainment). As casual goes down, the next "big" market will be core gaming, gaming that will reach the masses that grew up with games. BTW, I consider GTA4 to be a great example of what "core" gaming is.

2- The industry is run by businessmen. If they abandon hardcore gaming, they will lose a lot of their core base as well. This means hardcore gaming dies, core gaming dies, and casual is the order of the day. I still think it'll die - when it does, there will be another large gaming crash.

3- Variation of my 2nd scenario, meaning that most hardcore and core gamers will move downstream instead of upstream - instead of upgrading, they will be forced to downgrade, but will remain playing. This doesn't cause a crash, but it still ends up with casual games being the only form of gaming for a long time. Indie developers may come up and make truly hardcore games with much smaller budgets...

It's unpredictable as a whole. I'm just scared what is my passion in life, designing and playing games, is dying as an entertainment form, just like movies are dying. Most moving coming out these days are utter crap, because they're formulaic and predictable. The "hardcore" movie goer of the 80s and 90s doesn't go to theaters anymore, he mostly looks into foreign and indie films for his fix, as the mainstream stuff Hollywood spews out bores the hell out of them.

avatar299 said:
How many casual games d you actually play. Maybe if the extent of your knowledge is Nintendogs i can see your point, but if you look at the entire field, i don't see how you can really make the argument that causal gamers quit as soon as they fail.

Although this was not directed at me, I can help as he is completely right.

The biggest supplier of casual games right now is Big Fish Games. Look at their website: www.bigfishgames.com.

I can assure you, from experience (I have played quite a bit of those games in my line of work) that the majority of the games listed on Big Fish that are in the top 10 are games where it's very, VERY difficult to fail when you're starting. In fact, for most of these games, the difficulty of the earlier levels is so ridiculous you can win them by randomly clicking around the screen. And I'm not even exaggerating!

One constant in the industry, one thing I've always seen whenever designers work on casual games, is that execs ALWAYS think they're too hard. The % of games where I had to dumb down the initial experience as a minimum is 100. There's no way around it.

Here's an example: some of our testing showed that in The Price Is Right, our AI that plays in the Showcase Showdown (the big wheel) was too difficult. After looking into the situation quite a bit, analyzing the game code with the lead programmer, we found out that no, the AI wasn't good. It was just completely random. There are 20 spaces on the wheel, and each space has a 1/20 chance of being landed on, on any given spin. We actually got a request, from our CEO, to "cheat" in this portion of the game because he kept losing at it and found it too difficult. Thankfully, that solution would have taken a lot of time to code and we managed to convince him that it wasn't necessary due to other game mechanics and restrictions. And what's the very first thing I read on casual gaming forums when the game comes out?

Everyone's complaining about the extra hard AI on that portion of the game. There is NO AI to it. The game just assigns a random value and spins the wheel at that force. It's all about what they actually feel when they play the game, and some people actually felt cheated out of a victory because the AI beat them by 5 cents. And I'm certain some people actually stopped playing, partly because of that. I'm still not sure if we would have made enough money to offset the programmer working on it for a week if we had put the fix in, but it's just an example of what casual gaming goes through on a daily basis.
 
Good thing the Wii owners here are such big fans of casual games, since that's basically all the Wii is getting at this point. Hopefully no one complains when more of those are announced, since casual games are so great and definitely not retarded.
 
TimeKillr said:
I work in casual games. I have been, for about 5 years now.

Let me tell you something: casual players don't like to fail. You don't mind failing, because you're a gamer. You were a kid, you didn't feel like you were wasting your time.

let me counter with a statement that future designers need to keep in mind....design a better failure system.

failure can be designed to encourage players to experiment instead of acting as a detriment to behavior the designer feels is "not correct"

look at Burnout for example, what a brilliantly designed failure system. There's even a point where they designed a whole mechanic around failing (Crash Mode).

casual gamers don't like to fail because they are always being subjected to poor failure design when in fact it can be made so that failure leads you closer to success instead of taking you farther away from it.

this is one of the things that need to be fixed...then maybe casual gamers will open up their experiences beyond games that are being designed strictly for them to games that they never thought they'd enjoy.

success is so much sweeter when you look back at the things you overcame to get there. true in life, true in games. the casual gaming industry does a disservice to these new players by assuming that they don't like to fail instead of finding out ways to change the design of failure.
 

border

Member
avatar299 said:
Thanks for proving my point.
Because I know their names that somehow proves their motivations for creating the games that they do? To say that all those luminaries create games only to "impress peers" or "show off tech" strikes me as somewhere between unfairly cynical and mildly stupid. It couldn't just be that they have a vision that excites them, and they want to pull it off in the most moving, convincing, and engaging way possible?

Jason Jones was not lead on Halo 3, btw :D


That's true, but they only heap praise onto those games after they come out. Pre-release hardcore gamers are more interested in the more tech oriented games.

Because once the game has come out they've actually played those games and can recognize their quality. Oh but wait, hardcore gamers only care about tech and ignore gameplay.....so why in 2007 would they praise anything that runs on the ancient Source Engine?

You keep bringing up Crysis and in a way it is unfair because PC gaming is always way more tech oriented than the much larger console world. But at the same time, what are the platform's biggest stories of the last year, ignoring Crysis? Looking at the titles that have received major coverage in the last year, I'm seeing The Sims 3, World of Warcraft, Battlefield Heroes, Company of Heroes, Starcraft 2, and now Diablo 3....all games not pushing the graphical envelope, all games that will require tutorials and have tons of text and probably not be that fun after 1 minute of gameplay.

Viva pinata was horribly designed, but arguably was as fun a game as gears of War. Which sold more? Which received more pre and post coverage?

You hit me with the :lol, but I'm astonished you don't see what an asinine comparison this is. VP was double-fucked -- the Xbox audience isn't interested in raising cartoon animals, and the game is too convoluted for a child audience to understand. Any potential customer is going to be vexed by either the art or the design. Expecting it to sell similarly to Gears is ridiculous. It's like demanding to know why The Bridges of Madison County DVD didn't sell well in a DVD porn shop ("Because it's just as good as ALL HOLES FILLED 8"!).

Why VP didn't get a lot of pre-release coverage? The 14-30 male demographic that game sites and magazines cater to doesn't give a shit about breeding candy ponies and gumdrop kittens. Just because it is "arguably as fun as Gears of War" doesn't mean it's going to receive equal sales or equal press treatment. If the enthusiast press were all about techno-lust, VP would have received major coverage because the game is technically quite accomplished. But nope, art design remains important too.
 

KTallguy

Banned
Very good point about failure, Monchi.

There's a fine balance though. If players can just shrug off failure without any sort of repercussion, then they won't fear dying at all, right?

But agreed that Crash mode and the like are great ways of turning death into an enjoyable minigame/part of the overall game experience.
 

Haunted

Member
Green Biker Dude said:
Good thing the Wii owners here are such big fans of casual games, since that's basically all the Wii is getting at this point. Hopefully no one complains when more of those are announced, since casual games are so great and definitely not retarded.
wl1tuq.jpg
 
I disagree with his point with regards to tutorials. They can often be necessary, especially for new players to something like RTS games (something his beloved Blizzard excel at). Although, to be fair, the very best tutorials are the ones where you don't realise you're playing through a tutorial at all, so I can understand his misunderstanding. His point would have been better served if he had been advocating engineering the difficulty curve better rather than abolishing tutorials altogether.

Also, with regards to designing games in response to user reactions was spot on, although he should have noted that smiling need not always be the intended reaction. Games are meant for entertainment, which is broader than he implies. Saving Private Ryan, Life is Beautiful and Amelie are all very different movies and all brilliant because they provoke an internal reaction in the audience.

As for games being art, I do agree that retrospect decides what art is rather than its creation. That is to say that I agree that creating something epoch-defining shouldn't be the aim of the video game designer because any attempt at engineering such a thing is sure to fail. This stuff is always decided after the fact, after all. It goes back to his birdman argument.

All in all, I agree with this guy's main points, but he does have a tendency with getting far too specific in his rhetoric and examples. His arguments regarding the customer-focused rather than product-focused approach approach to business are the very basis of modern marketing and strategy*. The industry, however, or at least those in charge seem to ignore or forget it in the thick of competition.

* I'm not kidding. Find some first year university-level Marketing or Strategy text books and read up on Product Focus Vs Customer Focus.
 
KTallguy said:
There's a fine balance though. If players can just shrug off failure without any sort of repercussion, then they won't fear dying at all, right?

Failure needs to have meaning and not just a way for us to slap the hand of the player and say "bad gamer!"

Death in games hasn't changed either...it's a remnant of old design. Is it bad? not really, but at the same time very few (if any) games really do anything beyond designing death as the ultimate failure mechanism in the game. death = deterrent....while not poor design needs to be thought through again.
 

FightyF

Banned
Another Malstrom article, another time for FightyF, the self-proclaimed Casual Game Know-it-All, puts him back in his place...

With these ‘hardcore’ games, the developers strut like peacocks as if they were rockstars or movie directors. “Look at me! Look how cool our game is!” A big red flag is when the designer attempts to make the game into ‘art’. Instead of making a fun product for the consumer, they are focused on making ‘art’ which is another way of saying they want to display their ‘brilliance’.

Who are these developers?

If I look at the most vocal developers and designers, they all say "Look at how cool our game is!", and directly go into the game's gameplay features. They go into detail on what makes the game a "fun product" off the bat. We've heard a lot about Bioshock, Mass Effect, Gears of War, Uncharted, so on and so forth from developers, and none of them ever claimed or even hinted at these games being products of art and thus is worthy of our attention. For Gears, Cliff went on about active reload, the use of cover, the blind fire, the melee combat, and the online Co-Op. All of these directly impact the GAMEPLAY of the game and nothing else.

I could go on and on about each title I've mentioned, and I didn't even mention titles that are considered art with a large amount of cutscenes (MGS4), or a game where a developer ran his mouth off at any opportunity (Too Human), and even in those cases we saw references being made to how each game PLAYS and how their ideas were implemented to make the game funner for users.

Does it have a tutorial? If yes, then your game is broken. The best games don’t have tutorials. ‘Super Mario Brothers’ and ‘Legend of Zelda’ had no tutorial and no tutorial ’stage’. Mega Man did not have a ‘tutorial’ until a tutorial stage appearing in Mega Man 7 (and they wonder why the series went downhill). Tetris had no tutorial. People want to play the game, not be forced to act out a manual. If your game *has* to have a tutorial because it is too complicated, then your game is the problem. Simplify it until you don’t need a tutorial. Wii Sports doesn’t even have a tutorial. It will simply give a ‘reminder’ of how to do stuff only if you mess up.

Wrong. Wii Sports relies on the fact that users will teach each other how to play. Just like Super Mario Brothers, just like Zelda. There are many popular casual games on the PC that people have to learn how to play before playing it. Sure, some people will try the game and have enough patience to figure it out themselves, but claiming that a tutorial is a big hurdle is a incorrect assumption. I could not give an elderly person a Wii with Wii Sports and then expect them to have fun with it. I would show them how to operate the Wii, how to play the game, how the menu system works. There is ALWAYS some element of learning. The more experienced the user is, the less learning required. I can play pretty much ANY FPS game out there and figure out most of its mechanics in a few minutes. I can't expect an elderly gentleman who has never touched a computer keyboard or mouse before, to figure out how to play Bejeweled. I've had to train elderly people on how to use a mouse, over a decade ago. Any new format is going to require learning. A tutorial is never a bad thing.

Does it have long cinematics? If yes, then your game is likely broken. The problem with cinematics is that it takes control away from the player, and is just an excuse for the developer to show how ‘awesome’ he/she is, how ‘artistic’, how ‘creative’, and how he really should be ‘directing movies instead of making stupid video games’. Cinematics are more about “Let’s strut our stuff” than being about the game. “But Malstrom! They add to the immersion!” In the beginning, they were a fun novelty. Now, they are a nuisance. It is better to hold ‘events’ rather than ‘cinematics’ to advance a story. An ‘event’ would be using the gameplay engine to show the changes.

Malstrom is forgetting the whole point of casual games, and videogames in general.

They are to entertain the user. Whether in a passive form (movies) or an interactive form, if the end result is a user who is entertained, the end result is a smile on the user's face, then you have accomplished your goal.

Too much damn text. Video games are a visual medium. Even the wordy adventure game yielded to imagery. Role playing and adventure games get away with having text but not too much. Even they are primarily driven by images. So many games today have way too much damn text in them, especially at the beginning and is outside the already stupid tutorial and ‘cinematic intro’. If gamers want to read brilliance, they would read a book. What is interesting is that established writers, when asked to make a video game, rely much on interaction because they know that is the differentiating factor between gaming and books.

This isn't even a problem with today's games...has this guy even played games made within the last decade?


If your game isn’t fun in one minute, it is broken.

No shit Sherlock, why do you think games often start out "in media res" with the lead characters in the middle of something exciting and with many capabilities?

If he's claiming that the industry doesn't realize this...I would ask if he realizes what sort of games there are out there, and whether or not he's played a game recently.

The user focused game is very different. Since the game doesn’t attempt to be ‘art’, the industry snarls and calls them ‘non-games’.

Really? This guys seems to put a lot of words into the mouths of "hardcore gamers", "the industry", "journalists", etc. Look at sports games, they don't claim to be "art". The "industry" never call them "non-games".

This guy is painting a fantasy landscape where he assumes whatever he wants to make himself sleep better at night (for whatever reason).

The exceptions to the above are when games are the first to do it. When cinematics, huge intros, and all were ‘brand new’, games could get away with them because they were ’surprising’. Most of these ‘features’ are now included so the developer/publisher can ’show off’.

There is absolutely no evidence for this assertion. He's simply making up stuff out of thin air, and writing it down, when most people would have the presence of mind to not waste their time by writing down any random assertion they may have came up with when sitting on the john.

Users don’t demand these boring ‘tutorials’, but they are thrown in because publishers feel they are awesome if they do so, they feel like they ARE special. Again, it is creator-focused.

Completely wrong here. Users have demanded these tutorials. If users don't know how to play, they will not refer to a manual, we know this. In-game tutorials are catering to the user by offering a convenient way to learn how to play the game.

It is not that the user is king, it is the non-user who is really king. Malstrom is king. Other non-gamers and former-gamers are kings. The companies are the slaves.

Heh, I really have to question his intelligence here. How are users NOT the king? Secondly, where did this term 'non-user', come from? Anyone who USES a product is a USER.

He doesn't seem to realize that what Nintendo did that was so special was find a DIFFERENT user with a different set of standards.

The consumer is always king. It doesn't matter what sort of demographic the consumer belongs to, they are kings. To discount "gamers" as being a consumer, it's completely stupid.

Western game developers are notorious for thinking they are the ‘king’ when their role is actually that of the ’slave’. From Epic’s Mark Rein declaring “Next Generation doesn’t start until we say so,” to the insane budget of Grand Theft Auto 4, western developers have become ego-maniacs.

Heh, has this Malstrom guy said ANYTHING that has been factually correct, besides his quotes from Nintendo bigwigs? Mark Rein didn't say that, Kaz Hirai did in reference to the Xbox 360 launch a year before the PS3. Kaz painted a picture that the PS3 would truly represent the "next generation" of consoles. Mark Rein, in response said, "Sony says the next generation starts when they say so - bullsh!t (or as the British might say, bollocks!)!" when they showed off Gears of War, and he was referring to how the game didn't look a generation behind any game on the PS3.

Secondly, the high cost of GTA4 came with making a very detailed and interactive world. Those costs have nothing to do with the developer's egos, but with creating an experience and a level of immersion that the user has never seen.

To claim that people are willing to invest a hundred million dollars simply to stroke their ego, is evidence that this Malstrom guy has no clue. He doesn't understand this industry...AT ALL.

Thinking that these new customers are ‘retards’, that they are ‘beneath you’, is really thinking that ‘I am so awesome’.

I don't want to get banned, so I'll keep my next comment as civil as possible.

This Malstrom gentlemen is acting really, really ridiculous. He makes stuff up, he puts words into people's mouths, and he is completely out of touch with today's games and the industry. I really have to question the intelligence of anyone who would take what he has to say seriously.
 

Rlan

Member
One of the most bizarre things I saw over the weekend was my brother's girlfriend playing Super Mario Bros. 3.

She had never really played Videogames before. She's now 18. While playing Mario 3 she wasn't hitting the "run" button at all, just walking through the level.

It's such a bizarre concept now, not knowing that you can "run" in Mario games, but the game sure never tells you to do so.
 

KTallguy

Banned
monchi-kun said:
Failure needs to have meaning and not just a way for us to slap the hand of the player and say "bad gamer!"

Death in games hasn't changed either...it's a remnant of old design. Is it bad? not really, but at the same time very few (if any) games really do anything beyond designing death as the ultimate failure mechanism in the game. death = deterrent....while not poor design needs to be thought through again.

True, I guess in the old model of "survival" type games, we tend to think of death = bad. I mean, anyone can grasp that concept.

But you're right, failure should give the player adequate knowledge and ability to come back stronger and smarter.

I just like the feeling of games like Dead Rising (although it's flawed), when I'm surrounded by zombies and it's scary as fuck because I'm like "Oh shit. I'm going to die." It makes getting out of those situations all the more fun. Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter did a good job of this too. But yea, there's a fine line between punishment and accessibility, and that balance is the most important thing. Making death something that gives the player insight onto what they're doing is important, definitely.
 
Rlan said:
One of the most bizarre things I saw over the weekend was my brother's girlfriend playing Super Mario Bros. 3.

She had never really played Videogames before. She's now 18. While playing Mario 3 she wasn't hitting the "run" button at all, just walking through the level.

It's such a bizarre concept now, not knowing that you can "run" in Mario games, but the game sure never tells you to do so.
To be fair, it is in the game manual. Same with flying. It should be RTFM then jump into the game.

In-game tutorials first came about because devs found that people weren't bothering to read the manual. Were Miyamoto designing the game again, I'd bet my left nut he'd put visual prompts/clues as to what to do into the first level, say with writing etched along one wall telling you to hold down B as you walk then with "START TAPPING A" written in coins just above the ground. Of course, he'd be more subtle about it since he's the master of manipulating the player into thinking that they'd figured out a big secret all by themselves (see: Zelda).
 

border

Member
FightyF made a pretty good post. I would agree that Malstrom is good at making wild assertions. When it comes to citing examples or backing up these assertions, he is awful. Pretty funny that the Mark Rein quote was completely wrong :lol
 

avatar299

Banned
border said:
Because I know their names that somehow proves their motivations for creating the games that they do? To say that all those luminaries create games only to "impress peers" or "show off tech" strikes me as somewhere between unfairly cynical and mildly stupid. It couldn't just be that they have a vision that excites them, and they want to pull it off in the most moving, convincing, and engaging way possible?
And that vision prompts them to write post mortems, appear on X-Play and bitch on the 1up show?

border said:
Jason Jones was not lead on Halo 3, btw :D
Oh well clearly he has nothing to do with halo




border said:
Because once the game has come out they've actually played those games and can recognize their quality. Oh but wait, hardcore gamers only care about tech and ignore gameplay.....so why in 2007 would they praise anything that runs on the ancient Source Engine?
Because that engine is still amazing technology. Portal isn't a good example of hardcore gamers appreciating gameplay over tech, when the PC industry has an entire side (indie games) they often ignore.

border said:
You keep bringing up Crysis and in a way it is unfair because PC gaming is always way more tech oriented than the much larger console world.
Uh huh

border said:
But at the same time, what are the platform's biggest stories of the last year, ignoring Crysis?
Halo 3, Call of Duty, Bioshock, Assasin's Creed, DX 10, the wii is killing gaming.

Clearly tech isn't important at all to hardcore gamers. They just happen to love the games that rely heavily on it by pure coincidence.

border said:
Looking at the titles that have received major coverage in the last year, I'm seeing The Sims 3, World of Warcraft, Battlefield Heroes, Company of Heroes, Starcraft 2, and now Diablo 3....all games not pushing the graphical envelope, all games that will require tutorials and have tons of text and probably not be that fun after 1 minute of gameplay.
:lol Sims 3? B:Heroes? Those games had miniscule coverage compared to many other games. Without burning Crusade WoW wouldn't be mentioned at all.



border said:
You hit me with the :lol, but I'm astonished you don't see what an asinine comparison this is. VP was double-fucked -- the Xbox audience isn't interested in raising cartoon animals, and the game is too convoluted for a child audience to understand. Any potential customer is going to be vexed by either the art or the design.
So hardcore gamers are juvenile or stupid, not tech whores. What a step up.


border said:
Why VP didn't get a lot of pre-release coverage? The 14-30 male demographic that game sites and magazines cater to doesn't give a shit about breeding candy ponies and gumdrop kittens. Just because it is "arguably as fun as Gears of War" doesn't mean it's going to receive equal sales or equal press treatment. If the enthusiast press were all about techno-lust, VP would have received major coverage because the game is technically quite accomplished. But nope, art design remains important too.
Yet games that look just as playful succeed in other instances. Earlier you said preview coverage becuase when a game releases, the market recognizes quality and supports it no matter how much tech it lacks.

Because once the game has come out they've actually played those games and can recognize their quality. Oh but wait, hardcore gamers only care about tech and ignore gameplay
So either Viva was ignored due to lack of tech or art design, either way it shows the hardcore gamer as shortsighted and pathetic

TimeKillr said:
The one thing Malstrom got right in his article was the analogy to books. Bestsellers are often dumbed-down books with easy entertainment values. But where, in that market, have you seen upstreaming?
How much do you know about the book industry. Of all the industries, books is the one where you believe upstreaming doesn't exist
 

pgtl_10

Member
Did it ever occur to Mr. Maelstrom that games have tutorials these days because it is cheaper than printing instructional manuals?
 

border

Member
avatar299 said:
And that vision prompts them to write post mortems, appear on X-Play and bitch on the 1up show?
So obviously doing any press for your product means you're completely insincere and only care about showing off to your peers? This line of thinking is starting to swing from "unfairly cynical" to just "stupid", now. When Wii developers start showing up on X-Play, I guess that will just be the death of videogames altogether.

Sims 3? B:Heroes? Those games had miniscule coverage compared to many other games. Without burning Crusade WoW wouldn't be mentioned at all.

Sims 3 and Battlefield Heroes were both GFW cover stories. Which is more than I can say for the belated Assassin's Creed port that you think was such a big deal. What does it matter why WoW gets covers again and again? The game engine is a dinosaur, and it sells magazines. I don't understand why you think Halo 3 is relevant to the PC platform or got much attention there, but even in the console world it was several steps technologically behind predecessors and contemporaries like CoD4 and Gears of War. Yet it's outsold them both, has it not? Bioshock is about as close as you can get to the importance of gameplay in the hardcore market; hype only really took off when people played the demo and read the reviews. The game was by no means a "sure thing", and plenty of journalists had pegged it as a "sleeper hit" at best.

Earlier you said preview coverage becuase when a game releases, the market recognizes quality and supports it no matter how much tech it lacks.
ONE MORE TIME FOR THE READING/HEARING/COMPREHENSION impaired: Viva Pinata did not lack tech. The game itself is a marvel that does a lot of impressive things and looks fantastic. VP tanked because it was out of reach to the youth demographic, and the art design did not appeal to the core 360 demographic. Name me one of these other "games that look just as playful" that went on to success on the 360.

Even beyond VP's art, how much of a market is there for a $50-60 virtual pet simulation? How is it even remotely fair to intimate that this cartoony game in an already-niche genre should sell as well as Gears? The assertion that because the "market supports quality" does not necessarily mean that one good pet sim is going to sell as well as one good shooter. I think you're smarter than to expect that.
 

onipex

Member
It's funny that a lot of reactions sound just like the 'hardcore' in some of his other articles. Seems a lot of people didn't read the entire op before responding.


TimeKillr said:
I'm "invested" in it - I work in casual games. Not by choice mind you, but it's just the path that opened up to me. And I'm doing my best in designing games that can appeal to both the casual and the less-casual. I'm not making ANY assumptions that my latest game, The Price Is Right, is going to appeal to any sort of hardcore gamer. Neither is my next project, for that matter.


I'm not going to quote you entire wall of text, but I think you ( or who you work for) are part of the problem. You are trying to make a casual game. When nintendo made Wii Sports they were trying to make a fun game. Same with brain age and any other nintendo games that has been labeled as casual. In case you didn't know there is a challenge to these games. In fact you can actually lose in Wii Sport!!!! They didn't try to make a 'dumb down' game where no one can't lose just a fun game.

I'm not even going to respond to your opinion of 3rd party sales for the Wii, because it has been proven wrong many times already. So has your 'Wii owners are not buying any other games theory'.

I also think you are comparing online casual gamers to console casual gamers( just guessing though). A casual gamer that brought a Wii for Wii Sports and later purchased Mario Kart moved upmarket to a bridge game. Of course some would rather buy Wii Fit and not move up, but since Mario Kart is still sold out I'm guessing that a good size of the market has. Some may not go up any more and some may. I don't Nintendo's goal is to create more hardcore gamers from the new market. If anything they want to create more core gamers (you know, the gamers that like fun games even if they are not n HD).
 
Rlan said:
One of the most bizarre things I saw over the weekend was my brother's girlfriend playing Super Mario Bros. 3.

She had never really played Videogames before. She's now 18. While playing Mario 3 she wasn't hitting the "run" button at all, just walking through the level.

It's such a bizarre concept now, not knowing that you can "run" in Mario games, but the game sure never tells you to do so.

I don't know about others, but all the controls from most NES games I learned were from friends telling me, me looking through the manual or just hitting every button when I started to figure it out. Then again, there were only 8 directions and 4 buttons.
 

avatar299

Banned
border said:
So obviously doing any press for your product means you're completely insincere and only care about showing off to your peers? This line of thinking is starting to swing from "unfairly cynical" to just "stupid", now. When Wii developers start showing up on X-Play, I guess that will just be the death of videogame altogether.
There's a difference between promoting a game, and presenting social theory on 1up yours(Dyack) or talking about how much of a lady killer you are.(itagaki)



border said:
Sims 3 and Battlefield Heroes were both GFW cover stories.
Well obviously the GFW cover Sims 3 got means it received more coverage than halo 3 or DX 10

not enough rolleyes

border said:
Which is more than I can say for the belated Assassin's Creed port that you think was such a big deal.
Oh yeah, no one in the gaming media talked about AC last year. At all.

border said:
What does it matter why WoW gets covers again and again? The game engine is a dinosaur, and it sells magazines. I don't understand why you think Halo 3 is relevant to the PC platform or got much attention there, but even in the console world it was several steps technologically behind predecessors and contemporaries like CoD4 and Gears of War. Yet it's outsold them both, has it not?
It hasn't outsold Cod4, and no halo3 is not a dinosaur.

And Wow is a special case. it only received coverage because it was big news to WoW customers.


border said:
ONE MORE TIME FOR THE READING/HEARING/COMPREHENSION impaired: Viva Pinata did not lack tech.
I never said it did.

[B said:
you[/B]]I don't even know why you bring up Viva Pinata, as any follower of Malstrom should probably consider it a huge failure.

it is, in terms of interface design but it is an example of hardcore gamers focusing on tech over game play. Viva pinata was horribly designed, but arguably was as fun a game as gears of War. Which sold more? Which received more pre and post coverage?

I never said VP lacked tech you dumbass. I said VP is an example of gameplay not always being the biggest factor for "hardcore" gamers. Learn to fucking read


border said:
Name me one of these other "games that look just as playful" that went on to success on the 360.
Naruto

border said:
Even beyond VP's art, how much of a market is there for a $50-60 virtual pet simulation?
Ask Nintendo.

border said:
How is it even remotely fair to intimate that this cartoony game in an already-niche genre should sell as well as Gears? The assertion that because the "market supports quality" does not necessarily mean that one good pet sim is going to sell as well as one good shooter. I think you're smarter than to expect that.
I never said Vp should sell as well as Gears, but it should sell well, or at least be acknowledged for it's quality. Many bad games sell on amazing tech(Doom 3, Quake 4, Motorstorm) leaving games that are far better twisting in the wind.
 
This guy is just a bishop in the church of Nintendo. Every thread about his meandering essays has the same Wii fans praising him and everyone else seeing through the charade.
 
Top Bottom