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New Tropes vs Women video is out (Women as Background Decoration pt. 2)

Widge

Member
Maybe i am playing the wrong games. It has been a long time since i saw a woman severely sexualised in a game

It could be that, but it could also because we are unconsciously unaware of there being anything to address, perceiving the status quo as "ok".

This is an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUa8YDYRnUo

Look at the portrayal. It doesn't scream severely sexualised but the girl is obviously stuck in there as window dressing. Two cool as you like everymen, one skimpy clad female who is presumably off clubbing afterwards. It's ok, she won the game.

Every time something like this pops up we should be pushing back. Why did you decide to put this character in there like that? Do you think you could have done this video better?

The main issue is that, on the whole, men have a hard time creating anything female. When they do, it is the values that they attach to positive female traits. Attractive, non-threatening, independent but the potential to subdue.
 

APF

Member
Games aren't slaves to some sense of adhering to reality, even if they are placed in a historical setting. In fact, it's far more the opposite--most games will sacrifice reality in order to have better-feeling gameplay for example (the less a game does this the more a simulator it becomes). The good thing about a game like RDR is that it can take a stale or underutilized genre and update it for a modern sensibility. This includes modern ideas about race, gender, and sexuality.
 
I'm not singling you out specifically, but considering how many times this reasoning has been brought up and addressed I really wish we could write or put together a general purpose answer instead of having to respond to every time that its brought up ad nauseum.

Assuming people are arguing sincerely held beliefs in good faith and not just flinging out every justification they can think of as a knee-jerk because someone said something critical of a medium they love: I think this is a good idea. I tried to start something similar in one of the previous threads. Of course that base assumption is being generous.

What I just can't wrap my head around is this: is it really too much to ask that we allow games to be subjected to the very same kind of critical analysis that literally every other creative medium is?

You might disagree with Anita; that's fine, but make a real argument and engage with those on the other side. You might agree in the broad strokes but find her commentary shallow; that's fine, too. I guarantee there's deeper discussion happening elsewhere. You might genuinely not understand what feminist criticism is; if you're curious, do some Googling instead of coming into GAF threads and demanding that someone give you a complete account of feminism from first principles. There's plenty of good feminism 101 material out there.

There's tons of film, music, and literary criticism going on all the time and practically none of it results in the lazy rationalizations, personal attacks, and death threats we see every single time a new TvsW video comes out. I'm finally convinced that this is most gamers' first encounter with cultural criticism of any kind.
 

Clukos

Banned
It could be that, but it could also because we are unconsciously unaware of there being anything to address, perceiving the status quo as "ok".

This is an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUa8YDYRnUo

Look at the portrayal. It doesn't scream severely sexualised but the girl is obviously stuck in there as window dressing. Two cool as you like everymen, one skimpy clad female who is presumably off clubbing afterwards. It's ok, she won the game.

Every time something like this pops up we should be pushing back. Why did you decide to put this character in there like that? Do you think you could have done this video better?

The main issue is that, on the whole, men have a hard time creating anything female. When they do, it is the values that they attach to positive female traits. Attractive, non-threatening, independent but the potential to subdue.

From the looks of it this game doesn't have much going for it, could be the reason for her to exist in that trailer. About the last point, women can help with that. More females in gaming development teams can help with female representation. The way Anita represents everything won't help much, as calling everyone enjoying these games a misogynist won't either. Finger pointing won't resolve the issue.
 

Widge

Member
Fair enough, although there is too much of a sentiment of people fighting tooth and nail to keep everything as it is. It would be nice to see people pick up the Anita baton and say "I get what you're saying, I think you're doing it wrong, here is how I think you say it better".

It always seems to be a sequence of attack, discredit, bury.
 
From the looks of it this game doesn't have much going for it, could be the reason for her to exist in that trailer. About the last point, women can help with that. More females in gaming development teams can help with female representation. The way Anita represents everything won't help much, as calling everyone enjoying these games a misogynist won't either. Finger pointing won't resolve the issue.

How won't it exactly? If people are aware of the trend, they can do work to second guess themselves when it comes to scenes such as what Anita pointed out. They begin to think about scene necessity, whether it truly builds atmosphere in the world, the tone of the scene, etc. Thinking about it beyond the usual thought process of just having a hot girl play the damsel or be the victim means that the type of substance-less inclusion of female characters as pawns will decrease in favor of stuff that is at least slightly more thought out. We've already got several developers recognizing Anita's work and at least admitting that they'll look twice about how they include female characters. In fact Neil Druckmann already stated that Anita's work and observations influenced how he wrote the Last of Us. No one should be shaming the developers that don't take those steps though and that's certainly not Anita's goal.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I mean, I was totally in the "her analysis is too shallow" camp until this very video. Its still not great, and its not delving into detail the way some people want, but this is by far the best one at actually coherently expressing the problems with the pattern she's discussing, and since I've always been on board with the idea of "going broad" and showing a lot of examples instead of a few detailed ones I think this is a step forward for her series.
 

JohngPR

Member
They tend not to. They're often used as shorthand to convey the world as gritty and/or have some window dressing for the straight male gamer to ogle over, and nothing more. If that's the extent of the reasoning for their inclusion, then the game creators are lazy.



You'd be wrong.

In a game like Assassins Creed, it had gameplay benefits more than anything else, at least for me. I never "ogled" over them. Also of note is that they were called "Courtesans" and not prostitutes. Is there any point where it's ok to have them in a game like that? Is it historically accurate to have them? These are questions I'm posing more because I don't have all the answers.

The game play benefit could have been done In a different matter where it wasn't women used. I don't think these issues are as black and white as some people try to make them. I know there are more examples than AC but it is one of the games used in her video.
 
Games aren't slaves to some sense of adhering to reality, even if they are placed in a historical setting. In fact, it's far more the opposite--most games will sacrifice reality in order to have better-feeling gameplay for example (the less a game does this the more a simulator it becomes). The good thing about a game like RDR is that it can take a stale or underutilized genre and update it for a modern sensibility. This includes modern ideas about race, gender, and sexuality.
Degrees of realism are down to the devs. Games don't have to reflect real-life, but if they do, they ought to be honest.
 
By historically accurate i didn't mean specific historical events, just the accuracy of the setting. During that time there was no equality, women were being hunted and abused for false accusations. Representing that in a game set during the medieval period isn't inaccurate. I think balance is the key word. The Witcher includes a fair share of strong females which most of the time end up saving the main character from certain death.

I'll grant that fantasy games based off of a real historical period have to be selective in which aspects of that period they carry forward and which they change or drop in service of their own vision.

But can we just for a moment think about why the oppression of women is nearly always something they carry forward?
 

Oersted

Member
Games aren't slaves to some sense of adhering to reality, even if they are placed in a historical setting. In fact, it's far more the opposite--most games will sacrifice reality in order to have better-feeling gameplay for example (the less a game does this the more a simulator it becomes). The good thing about a game like RDR is that it can take a stale or underutilized genre and update it for a modern sensibility. This includes modern ideas about race, gender, and sexuality.

In every single one of these threads, you have people trying to "explain" that the over sexual objectification/ non-playability of women is due to games being realistic/non-realistic. Its a sad meme at this point.

The way Anita represents everything won't help much, as calling everyone enjoying these games a misogynist won't either. Finger pointing won't resolve the issue.

Do you feel persecuted?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
In a game like Assassins Creed, it had gameplay benefits more than anything else, at least for me. I never "ogled" over them. Also of note is that they were called "Courtesans" and not prostitutes. Is there any point where it's ok to have them in a game like that? Is it historically accurate to have them? These are questions I'm posing more because I don't have all the answers.

The game play benefit could have been done In a different matter where it wasn't women used. I don't think these issues are as black and white as some people try to make them. I know there are more examples than AC but it is one of the games used in her video.

Of course its possible to have a game where its okay to have them. Its an issue because its a trend, and a seemingly thoughtless trend at that. Thats why these videos are structured the way they are
 

frequency

Member
I like that someone who believes there is no issue at all is now telling us how we should or should not be addressing the issue (which he just minutes ago said he doesn't believe exists). Thanks for your expert opinion.

(Note: None of these videos have said, "You're all misogynists!")

While certain gamers are raging over these things, I'm seeing a lot of developers come out and support the ideas and are even publicly speaking about regrets (see Bioshock 2 tweets). I am also seeing some NeoGAF posters over the multiple threads say they learned something new. I think that means this is helping to address the issue.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
From the looks of it this game doesn't have much going for it, could be the reason for her to exist in that trailer. About the last point, women can help with that. More females in gaming development teams can help with female representation. The way Anita represents everything won't help much, as calling everyone enjoying these games a misogynist won't either. Finger pointing won't resolve the issue.
When did she call people enjoying these games misogynist?

I mean she literally goes out of her way at the start of every video to explicitly say you AREN'T a bad person for playing these games and it's okay to enjoy something while recognizing its problematic aspects.
 

Clukos

Banned
I like that someone who believed there was no issue at all is now telling us how we should or should not be addressing the issue (which he just minutes ago said he doesn't believe exists). Thanks for your expertise.

I said in the majority of games I play women are represented fairly. And this sort of personal attacking is what i don't like about this whole deal. You present your opinion, accept no counter argument, and end up posting ironic replies such as this.

When did she call people enjoying these games misogynist?

I mean she literally goes out of her way at the start of every video to explicitly say you AREN'T a bad person for playing these games and it's okay to enjoy something while recognizing its problematic aspects.

Not Anita in particular, the people that are using her videos as fuel to start meaningless arguments. I think there is a better way to deal with the issue of how women must be represented in games in general. Personally i don't like how she presents her opinion, that's it.
 

atr0cious

Member
In a game like Assassins Creed, it had gameplay benefits more than anything else, at least for me. I never "ogled" over them. Also of note is that they were called "Courtesans" and not prostitutes. Is there any point where it's ok to have them in a game like that? Is it historically accurate to have them? These are questions I'm posing more because I don't have all the answers.

The game play benefit could have been done In a different matter where it wasn't women used. I don't think these issues are as black and white as some people try to make them. I know there are more examples than AC but it is one of the games used in her video.
History already dictated that this series should have been about a woman from the start, so..
 

Oersted

Member
Not Anita in particular, the people that are using her videos as fuel to start meaningless arguments. I think there is a better way to deal with the issue of how women must be represented in games in general. Personally i don't like how she presents her opinion, that's it.

Your goalpost moving, as funny as it is, leads to nowhere. Can't you just flatout say what is bothering you?
 

Sneds

Member
I don't mean different footage as in different games. Just the same game she is presenting as misogynistic including the opposite. From what I've seen it is just cherry picking. And it is for that reason they become controversial, because there is room to argue.

Should we censor every entertainment medium because a percentage of people who chose to play/watch/read it (hopefully) don't like a certain scene? Can't we have strong female characters alongside weak female characters? Isn't this the same case for male characters? Surely not every male character is as "badass" as the main character, you have to make him stand out. Can we consider this as misandry? I don't like to delve in such terms. I've been a lifelong fan of series that feature strong female leads, I've read many books in which females were not only equal to men, but played a major role in the progression of the story. I still don't think any medium should be censored. By trying to extinguish "oppression" you form another way of oppressing artists.

Now Anita for example, makes Hitman seem like a brothel woman beating simulator. As someone who hasn't even played the series all that much even i know that's not true; therefore, it makes me want to argue about it. Her analysis of games is always incomplete mainly because she tries to find and pick the parts that prove her point. As i would never take a biased, half-assed academic essay seriously i can't take her opinion seriously. The matters she is discussing are important, at least do some proper research beforehand and provide me with a complete analysis about games that is deserving of the topic discussed.

What she does is provide controversial content, remove the ability to respond back, rate and argue about it on youtube, essentially moving the discussion on forums such as neogaf providing even more exposure.

I understand you meant clips from the same game. But Anita is using examples to highlight the existence of mysogynistic tropes. She isn't claiming that the games she cites are made up completely of misogynistic scenes. There's no issue of balance. Having scenes that aren't mysogynistic doesn't erase the scenes that are mysogynistic.
 

frequency

Member
I said in the majority of games I play women are represented fairly. And this sort of personal attacking is what i don't like about this whole deal. You present your opinion, accept no counter argument, and end up posting ironic replies such as this.

Sorry I'm not going to be absolutely friendly to people who say it's totally fine that my gender gets treated the way it does and that games shouldn't ever need to consider me on the same level as the other gender because it's historically accurate to have abused women in a game about a magic man.

I'm not a saint and I don't know why I should be extra careful not to hurt your feelings when you (and many others since this whole thing started) are insensitive to mine.


As an aside, I'm not even sure how my post is a "personal attack". Perhaps I should go forward never addressing any specific person/post lest I risk hurting someone's feelings.
 

Carcetti

Member
From the looks of it this game doesn't have much going for it, could be the reason for her to exist in that trailer. About the last point, women can help with that. More females in gaming development teams can help with female representation. The way Anita represents everything won't help much, as calling everyone enjoying these games a misogynist won't either. Finger pointing won't resolve the issue.

The thing is, gamers need to be able this sort of criticism because fans of other entertainment already do. Just pointing out that a piece of entertainment or art is misogynistic and racist doesn't necessarily make you a bad person if you enjoy it. Books and movies I enjoy have been _eviscerated_ by cultural critics in similar manner and I can still enjoy them. Gamers just get overly defensive over this, probably because this is the youngest and most vulnerable entertainment form. And in Anita's videos she doesn't actually attack people, she just point out things in games. The whole outrage over the vids is pointless even if you disagree with all her points.
 

Shinta

Banned
When did she call people enjoying these games misogynist?

I mean she literally goes out of her way at the start of every video to explicitly say you AREN'T a bad person for playing these games and it's okay to enjoy something while recognizing its problematic aspects.

She does.

But at the same time, she states that she believes that playing games with objectionable content leads to objectionable behavior in real life. She further adds that if you object to this idea, you actually are supposedly even more at risk for adopting objectionable behavior.

There are conflicting ideas here.
 

Oersted

Member
She does.

But at the same time, she states that she believes that playing games with objectionable content leads to objectionable behavior in real life. She further adds that if you object to this idea, you actually are supposedly even more at risk for adopting objectionable behavior.

There are conflicting ideas here.

Yes, when you consume certain products constantly, they might have an effect on you.
 

Carcetti

Member
She does.

But at the same time, she states that she believes that playing games with objectionable content leads to objectionable behavior in real life. She further adds that if you object to this idea, you actually are supposedly even more at risk for adopting objectionable behavior.

There are conflicting ideas here.

I don't think those are conflicting ideas. We pick up ideas and influences from everywhere around us, and games which tend to repeat certain problematic ideas (I hate the word 'tropes') are one of these sources. You're not a bad person if you get influenced by these things, and even the people who made the game might've done it with no malice, just themselves being influenced by subconscious attitudes which repeat through popular culture. Which is why games need to be watched through a critical lens like any other form of entertainment.
 

Shinta

Banned
Yes, when you consume certain products constantly, they might have an effect on you.

Personally, I don't believe that, and I don't think science proves that with anything approaching a broad consensus.

But more importantly, that would be confirming that she is indirectly stating that fans of the things she is criticizing are not normal, good people. You can use "misogynist" as short-hand if you want, but she is implying something, and you're agreeing with it. That was my point.
 

Clukos

Banned
Your goalpost moving, as funny as it is, leads to nowhere. Can't you just flatout say what is bothering you?

The problem with presenting games like she does and sticking a "social critique" sticker on top of them is that it's really not representative of gaming as a whole. For anyone that has barely any experience with games, the games brought up in her videos are instantly becoming beacons of misogyny. The casual viewer will therefore believe that any individual playing such games is a misogynist. She doesn't present both sides of the same coin and that is bothering me because i like gaming as much as anybody here.

I don't have a problem with feminism, i don't have a problem with what she is trying to prove. I have a problem with the incomplete presentation. Anita may or may not think these games are bad for you but the audience can be swayed easily. Especially those who have no experience with the medium, which is dangerous.
 

Oersted

Member
Personally, I don't believe that

Not really relevant. You do know PR and propaganda exist for a reason. You do know how well documented the effect of wrong body images is. You do know people actually believe Foxnews.

You are just plainly ignoring reality.

The problem with presenting games like she does and sticking a "social critique" sticker on top of them is that it's really not representative of gaming as a whole. For anyone that has barely any experience with games, the games brought up in her videos are instantly becoming beacons of misogyny. The casual viewer will therefore believe that any individual playing such games is a misogynist. She doesn't represent both sides of the same coin and that is bothering me because i like gaming as much as anybody here.

I don't have a problem with feminism, i don't have a problem with what she is trying to prove. I have a problem with the incomplete presentation. Anita may or may not think these games are bad for you but the audience can be swayed easily. Especially those who have no experience with the medium, which is dangerous.

On the same page guys arguing that sexist representation of women in videogames has no effect, while Sarkeesian presenting videogames as sexist is dangerous. You guys are amazing.

Dude, she never said it is about gaming as a whole. It's about certain games becoming worse than they have to, trough sexist elements, which are sadly widespread.
 
Yes, when you consume certain products constantly, they might have an effect on you.

That this sounds intuitive to you doesn't make it true. Every moral panic starts in the same way.

Not really relevant. You do know PR and propaganda exist for a reason. You do know how well documented the effect of wrong body images is. You do know people actually believe Foxnews.

You are just plainly ignoring reality.

You're making things up. We have no evidence that the human mind is affected by art/entertainment in the same way it's affected by propaganda.
 

Gestault

Member
Have you ever read a post or article that changed your mind about anything?

The view that media doesn't have a causative effect on behavior is fairly unassailable. On the other hand, as part of a lifetime of cultural influences, it can shift attitudes. It's not direct, but attitudes inform behavior.

With respect, the response you've given is pointlessly accusatory. You can respond to the ideas raised if the person is being respectful.
 

Shinta

Banned
Have you ever read a post or article that changed your mind about anything?

This isn't a very productive question. 2nd time from you this week. I was polite and didn't say anything unreasonable, insulting or threatening.

If you unpack your question, it's basically stating that I'm a completely unreasonable stubborn person. If you stated that bluntly, it would be a clear ad hominem attack. But you hide it behind a question. It's still not a very polite, or productive thing to focus on, and it really has nothing to do with this thread or her video. What if I asked the same question of Anita? That's not very productive. I'm sure she has changed her mind before, as has every human being on the planet.
 

Carcetti

Member
Imru’ al-Qays;128146160 said:
That this sounds intuitive to you doesn't make it true. Every moral panic starts in the same way.

Do you believe in the concepts of learning, propaganda, education or advertisement? The only question is really 'how much' does entertainment affect us, not 'does it affect us'.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
It's funny how this sentiment can vary from 'emphatically true' to 'absolutely ridiculous' depending on what 'products' or 'media' are being discussed.

Well that and the issue in question. We got into the "violence vs sexism" thing a few pages back (or maybe another thread) but there are differences between the two, primarily that our culture has a pretty well defined condemnation of irrational violence it hammers into us our entire lives, hence why we recognize that running over random pedestrians would be wrong in real life, but we don't have nearly as well defined a way of handling sexism and misogyny, to the point where there's not even a consensus on what sexism is or even if its bad.
 
Well that and the issue in question. We got into the "violence vs sexism" thing a few pages back (or maybe another thread) but there are differences between the two, primarily that our culture has a pretty well defined condemnation of irrational violence it hammers into us our entire lives, hence why we recognize that running over random pedestrians would be wrong in real life, but we don't have nearly as well defined a way of handling sexism and misogyny, to the point where there's not even a consensus on what sexism is or even if its bad. Which, I and others argue, leaves us more open to our thought patterns around sexism being influenced by media

Has this stance ever been substantiated by anything more than gut feelings and suspicions?
 

Carcetti

Member
Really, we can blame Jack Thompson and his ilk of this whole thing. The opportunistic, ignorant moral crusades of the past really soured the gaming in the sense that it's really hard to just accept that games might have to be criticized sometimes. Unfortunately, the industry has its share of blame too. In Thompson's case, Rockstar indirectly enabled him by using the moral outrage over its early games as advertisement, and the video game industry was slow to build an organized media defense. So, it was the gamers who had to defend their hobby, leading to this.


Imru’ al-Qays;128147099 said:
That's sort of an important question.

I agree! I'd say that even if the influences are minimal, it is worth the effort to examine what kind of influences they are.
 

APF

Member
This isn't a very productive question. 2nd time from you this week. I was polite and didn't say anything unreasonable, insulting or threatening.

If you unpack your question, it's basically stating that I'm a completely unreasonable stubborn person. If you stated that bluntly, it would be a clear ad hominem attack. But you hide it behind a question. It's still not a very polite, or productive thing to focus on, and it really has nothing to do with this thread or her video. What if I asked the same question of Anita? That's not very productive. I'm sure she has changed her mind before, as has every human being on the planet.

So from your ballistic response to a simple question, I'm going to assume your answer is not only "yes," but also that the idea media you consume cannot change your perceptions is actually an insulting proposition. Does that not run counter to your assertion that media you consume cannot have an effect on you?
 

jordisok

Member
Personally, I don't believe that, and I don't think science proves that with anything approaching a broad consensus.

But more importantly, that would be confirming that she is indirectly stating that fans of the things she is criticizing are not normal, good people. You can use "misogynist" as short-hand if you want, but she is implying something, and you're agreeing with it. That was my point.

You can like something, and even enjoy it and be a fan of it, while still recognizing that it contains questionable content. Everything you've said there is just speculation, do you really think Anita is suggesting that everyone who likes RDR (as an example) is 'not normal, good people'? Unless you're actively celebrating the objectifying content, I doubt this is the case.
 

Seeds

Member
This may have been posted before, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYoWDALXrQY

This video well articulates my problem with this topic (and only this topic of Women as Background Decoration)

Basically how pretty much all the problems Anita has with the trope are problems with low level NPCs and not with misogyny, since games don't have infinite budgets these problems can not be solve anyways

This is basically how I feel in regards to gaming.

Some are asking for serious social commentary in a medium (video games) in which writing a lot of the time takes second place to gameplay, control, graphics etc, when mediums in which writing actually takes priority (books, movies) struggle with these things. If you really want to solve this issue you need to ask developers to start prioritising writing, which is something I doubt they'll want to do.

Games have improved in a lot of aspects but when it comes to writing it hasn't improved much since the ''are you a bad enough dude to rescue the president'' days.
 

Shinta

Banned
to the point where there's not even a consensus on what sexism is or even if its bad.

This is a hugely important point to make. The line between sexuality, and objectification is all but indefinable in a whole host of cases. The entire theory of objectification is still just a theory. It can exist in extreme cases, but people take it so far. Any physically based attraction can be categorized as objectification. Any attraction to specific anatomy can be categorized as reducing people to sex objects.

Classically defined sexism is discrimination based on gender, like a man and woman apply for a job with equal qualifications and one is dismissed purely on gender. But the way the word is used today, it's a criticism of multiple aspects of sexuality that many people may not even see as harmful at all. It's a very open debate, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Even feminists can't agree on what constitutes sexism, objectification, or what the line is between anti-sex attitudes and progressive thought.

So from your ballistic response to a simple question, I'm going to assume your answer is not only "yes," but also that the idea media you consume cannot change your perceptions is actually an insulting proposition. Does that not run counter to your assertion that media you consume cannot have an effect on you?

You are conflating free thought, and decision making with mindlessly being driven towards a decision. If I read an article with information, I can think about it and decide to change my mind about anything I want. That is not really what anyone is talking about in this video, and that is not what is being implied.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Imru’ al-Qays;128147306 said:
Has this stance ever been substantiated by anything more than gut feelings and suspicions?

If you mean "can I point to any scientific studies that back this up?" then no (if there are some I suspect even I would find issues in their methodology, IMO not because the premise is necessarily wrong but because this is the kind of thing that's close to impossible to track in isolation) which is why you wouldn't ever see me call for any kind of actual direct moderation. But if you reject the idea that media influences our perspectives at all that feels like you're tossing out basically all of media studies and a healthy chunk of cultural studies in general. Is that actually your position?
 

APF

Member
You are conflating free thought, and decision making with mindlessly being driven towards a decision.
Aah, so you *decided* to have a disproportional emotional response to my simple question, after due consideration. Other than posts I write, can you recall further examples of where media provoked emotional, non-rational responses in you?
 

Shinta

Banned
Aah, so you *decided* to have a disproportional emotional response to my simple question, after due consideration.
Why don't you go ahead and state something besides a question. You can start by stating your own opinion directly about whatever it is you want to say, and explaining your quotations around "decided" if you want.
 
If you mean "can I point to any scientific studies that back this up?" then no (if there are some I suspect even I would find issues in their methodology, IMO not because the premise is necessarily wrong but because this is the kind of thing that's close to impossible to track in isolation) which is why you wouldn't ever see me call for any kind of actual direct moderation or censorship. But if you reject the idea that media influences our perspectives at all that feels like you're tossing out basically all of media studies and a healthy chunk of cultural studies in general. Is that actually your position?

I don't disagree that media influences our perspectives. But it's a very daring intellectual leap to go from agreeing to that truism to thinking we can isolate the specific ways in which this influence is likely to exert itself. I'm uncomfortable with assuming that violence in films will cause real life violence or that depictions of damsels in distress in video games will cause a real life degradation in the status of women, to say nothing of the more elaborate theories to the effect that portraying rapists as villains will cause people to be rapists because they won't realize that they're rapists because the media will have taught them that all rapists are villains.

To my mind, the simple fact that a significant portion of women might be alienated by a particular portrayal is reason to reexamine it. There's no cause to run around making up ad hoc theories postulating that negative portrayals of women in games will have some sort of actual effect on the real world. Why is inclusivity for inclusivity's sake not enough? Why do a bunch of people who obviously don't know the first thing about psychology feel the need to freebase nonsensical arguments about the extent to which popular culture influences people's behavior?

Also yes, I do think cultural studies is worthless.
 

Gestault

Member
Aah, so you *decided* to have a disproportional emotional response to my simple question, after due consideration. Other than posts I write, can you recall further examples of where media provoked emotional, non-rational responses in you?

The point you're trying to convey through these responses seems to crudely overstate the tendency for passive integration (and by extension, behavior) from media and cultural influences. The idea that someone ever reacted to an outside prompt doesn't validate your point.
 

APF

Member
Why don't you go ahead and state something besides a question.
I'm going to take that evasion as another "yes." So the point is we know the media we consume has some effect on us; that's largely it's purpose. The point of art is to express or to provoke--and this influences our own thought, our own ideas and beliefs. A lot--if not all--art, advertising, even argumentation plays on the way in which we interpret the information we're processing, and can end up having effects that seem irrational or counter-intuitive. Sometimes it's explicit, sometimes it's implicit. And yes, we do see this in research into media, advertising, etc (see eg the appropriately-named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational). Games are a part of our cultural landscape. As such they both help create and help reflect cultural norms and ideas. If a game can create an experience that has the effect of better reflecting upon those cultural norms or ideas, then it's no logical leap to suggest that games which reinforce long-held ideas can help reinforce those norms.
 
I'm going to take that evasion as another "yes." So the point is we know the media we consume has some effect on us; that's largely it's purpose. The point of art is to express or to provoke--and this influences our own thought, our own ideas and beliefs. A lot--not all--art, advertising, even argumentation plays on the way in which we interpret the information we're processing, and can end up having effects that seem irrational or counter-intuitive. Sometimes it's explicit, sometimes it's implicit. And yes, we do see this in research into media, advertising, etc (see eg the appropriately-named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irrational). Games are a part of our cultural landscape. As such they both help create and help reflect cultural norms and ideas. If a game can create an experience that has the effect of better reflecting upon those cultural norms or ideas, then it's no logical leap to suggest that games which reinforce long-held ideas can help reinforce those norms.

That is the definition of a logical leap.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Imru’ al-Qays;128150066 said:
I don't disagree that media influences our perspectives. But it's a very daring intellectual leap to go from agreeing to that truism to thinking we can isolate the specific ways in which this influence is likely to exert itself. I'm uncomfortable with assuming that violence in films will cause real life violence or that depictions of damsels in distress in video games will cause a real life degradation in the status of women, to say nothing of the more elaborate theories to the effect that portraying rapists as villains will cause people to be rapists because they won't realize that they're rapists because the media will have taught them that all rapists are villains.

To my mind, the simple fact that a significant portion of women might be alienated by a particular portrayal is reason to reexamine it. There's no cause to run around making up ad hoc theories postulating that negative portrayals of women in games will have some sort of actual effect on the real world. Why is inclusivity for inclusivity's sake not enough? Why do a bunch of people who obviously don't know the first thing about psychology feel the need to freebase nonsensical arguments about the extent to which popular culture influences people's behavior?

Also yes, I do think cultural studies is worthless.

I respect most of your opinion here, but the bolded is unfortunately not that much of a leap. This is, depressingly enough, one area that we do have some data on, at least data that shows that if you present various forms of rape and assault and don't call them "rape" a significant percentage of men will either admit to committing them or admit that they don't see a problem with them. So where do they get their definition of rape from? Well the culture naturally, the same place all these definitions arise from, which includes the media, which predominantly defines rape as a "stranger in an alley" or a "exploitative cackling villain" or whatever.
 

unbias

Member
but also that the idea media you consume cannot change your perceptions is actually an insulting proposition. Does that not run counter to your assertion that media you consume cannot have an effect on you?

I do believe it can have an effect, it can make you less sensitive around video games that use the stereotypes, whether you like or dislike them and it can make you less sensitive to whatever the game is showing. For instance, someone who never watches UFC might have a hard time watching the violence, however someone who watches it all the time, probably doesn't flinch from the majority of stuff. However, this does not correlate to applied use of violence or ect; If I see something I disagree with, but I see it all the time in a game, movie, tv, literature, I don't have a change in moral perspective.

For instance, I believe there are a lot of people who are anti-war(specific wars, all wars, and ect), yet a lot of them probably play(I think it is safe to say, considering how popular COD is vs the population) COD, now I do not think this desensitizes them to war or violence as a concept in practical applications(case point Texas A&M study). Because even that one study that actually deals with sexism in games, is specifically dealing with the short term cognition of sexuality and the perceptions right after playing(and given the small sample, even then becomes problematic to show anything).

I also believe there is a danger if all you do is inundate yourself with games that sexualizing women(just like porn addicts, alcoholics, and ect). There is a possibility of it actually making you more ok with sexual objectification or violence or drug use or anything else. However, I think the person would need to exclusively play those games, but also only absorbing that type of material in real life(environment) and in all other mediums(media, literature, and other assorted things).

So I think you could argue, if the majority of the games you play sexually objectify women, and all other media you consume sexually objectifies women, and you are in an environment able to sexually objectify women, you may be more willing to, in real life, sexually objectify women. However it is a far cry of a singular(or even multiple) game or piece of media that can actually do this(I dont think this is specifically what she is saying though).

However, I dont think this is an issue with media, specifically, this is an issue of environment and what environment are you in, when you consume knowledge(video games, books, movies, TV, external stimuli and ect).

Her objective is to highlight things she, personally, finds problematic in games and tries to prove the point in any argument she thinks helps her case. Some people take this as accusatory, because of assumption of, "well if you think X it means you would have to think Y"(which may be true but we cant actually prove she thinks Y). I, personally, dont have an issue with the words she chooses, because she is trying to make her case, and since her video is out in the public you are free to dissect her argument; her sentiment, however, shouldn't factor into the actual argument. It's like a red herring, since it isn't really addressing the talking points.

I happen to agree with her, that these sexual spots in the games dont actually help the narrative, I also don't like games using sexualization(the way the realistic games currently do) to sell me on a game or story, I find it insulting to my intelligence to follow a story. I don't agree with the conclusions of actual damage or even agree with her in all instances it encourages sexism. I also don't think she made the case for misogyny(this word gets thrown out so much anymore it has lost the bite it should have) as a whole, since I dont assume the developers are misogynistic and I dont think video games(any of them) actually teach misogyny, since that would require rhetoric.
 
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