kOsmikcoffee
Member
The only thing I remember about her was the photo of her and the piles of games she bought with her internet​ money.
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The Legacy of Feminist Frequency's Tropes vs Women Series
- Thread starter Shaanyboi
- Start date
She uses a modern, if somewhat lightweight for laypersons, version of Frankfurt School critical theory which precisely explains why sexism exists in games by relating their creation back to sexism in wider society - one of the most repeated criticisms of her work is 'But games are just games and shouldn't be subjected to rigourous academic criticism for their content!'.
FF does a great job of conveying what are pretty sophisticated academic arguments to a wide audience, and she deserves praise for that alone.
The Greek Freak
Member
I feel like the people that labeled her as extreme would have a mental breakdown if they stumbled into certain corners of the internet.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
You do know those piles of games were used for her research, right?
Garrett Hawke
Member
yeah, they probably would given the extreme reaction to this
What always surprised me in these videos was in regards to what developers are "still" doing and not doing with women characters, in addition to the games doing the "right" things, especially since many of the clips were from games I hadn't played before myself. And while some videos like "Not Your Exotic Fantasy", "Damsel in Distress", or "Strategic Butt Coverings" highlighted problems most of us had awareness of for years, there were always perspectives I hadn't thought about, like "Are Women too hard to animate" or "Body Language & The Male Gaze", with some subjects applying into other forms of media as well.
Still, I think she's covered a lot in her series and understand why she's ending it. It would be nice in a year or two if she came back to see how much or how little the industry has changed since she stopped producing the series.
kOsmikcoffee
Member
I can't reply with what I actually want to say without getting banned, so I'll just say: OK.
Wow.
Do you know that she didn't?
Challenging this reasonably wouldn't get you banned i don't think, unless you were going to say some heinous shit! I'm not a mod though, idk.
It would be great if you expanded on that comment.
"Sorry, that essay you wrote for this non-journalism class was bad journalism (and therefore incorrect) because you formed and supported an argument. You should have taken a meandering path through every possible piece of information on the topic and come to either the conclusion I wanted or no conclusion whatsoever."
Every thread about FF, every complaint about cherry picking, every single time.
You poor thing.
I found a lot of her analysis weak, but this bit quoted in the OP
Is spot on. Had the assholes not attacked her, unintentionally proving that there was a bigger problem, then she'd have faded into obscurity. But they couldn't resist trying to tear her down for the temerity of talking about it, and ended up just sending more money and attention her way.
I wonder if Gamergate would have been better or worse, both from a harassment standpoint and from a wider industry and gamer response, if Sarkeesian's video series hadn't presaged the shit show that was to come.
EDIT: ooh, I hadn't watched any of the reviews they did, but that Quantum Break one is terrible.
Is spot on. Had the assholes not attacked her, unintentionally proving that there was a bigger problem, then she'd have faded into obscurity. But they couldn't resist trying to tear her down for the temerity of talking about it, and ended up just sending more money and attention her way.
I wonder if Gamergate would have been better or worse, both from a harassment standpoint and from a wider industry and gamer response, if Sarkeesian's video series hadn't presaged the shit show that was to come.
EDIT: ooh, I hadn't watched any of the reviews they did, but that Quantum Break one is terrible.
I didn't really study sociology or anything relevant in college so I won't pretend to be able to comment on the depth of her analysis, but I thought it was generally thoughtful and entertaining. I don't think these are easily achievable things. If it were, people would have done it before her.
I think claiming that without GG no one would have cared about FF is a bit presumptuous, but I agree that her work came off as a revelation for most.
People are a bit too harsh on the series' beginnings, which is a bit strange, but they took feedback and improved it with each new video (you know, like any quality YT show out there) and I think it ended up being of a pretty respectable quality. I read another article about it yesterday where they cited the developers of Towerfall on their thoughts on FF, and how it impacted their work so much, that they ended up adding many character variants to make the game more inclusive and even made a character based off Anita.
Gamergate hilariously boosted the series' visibility, sure, but there was valuable work there too, come on.
People are a bit too harsh on the series' beginnings, which is a bit strange, but they took feedback and improved it with each new video (you know, like any quality YT show out there) and I think it ended up being of a pretty respectable quality. I read another article about it yesterday where they cited the developers of Towerfall on their thoughts on FF, and how it impacted their work so much, that they ended up adding many character variants to make the game more inclusive and even made a character based off Anita.
Gamergate hilariously boosted the series' visibility, sure, but there was valuable work there too, come on.
Monocle
Member
Not an original take but: I think Anita's main contribution was starting conversations about representation within the industry, and raising awareness of sexism in media that can easily escape the notice of anyone who isn't directly affected by it. She helped put feminist topics on the social radar, and the article is exactly right in observing that the hysterical backlash served only to amplify her voice.
I will say I found some of Anita's critiques to be superficial and lacking persuasive examples, like where she offered the shallowest possible reading of Bayonetta to try to paint one of gaming's most empowering and subversive female characters as the same type of offensive sex-prop the game so effectively inverts and satirizes.
This isn't terribly important in the grand scheme though. The industry is better for having had the conversations Feminist Frequency brought to the fore. I hope a worthy and perhaps more rigorous spiritual successor emerges soon.
I will say I found some of Anita's critiques to be superficial and lacking persuasive examples, like where she offered the shallowest possible reading of Bayonetta to try to paint one of gaming's most empowering and subversive female characters as the same type of offensive sex-prop the game so effectively inverts and satirizes.
This isn't terribly important in the grand scheme though. The industry is better for having had the conversations Feminist Frequency brought to the fore. I hope a worthy and perhaps more rigorous spiritual successor emerges soon.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Considering the lack of in-depth discussion, I have to say that for me, this:
Is true. Even if Anita's arguments aren't always so convincing (something I disagree with), this has spurred new discussion about female representation in games, which I find very important to achieve equality in the world as a whole.
Is true. Even if Anita's arguments aren't always so convincing (something I disagree with), this has spurred new discussion about female representation in games, which I find very important to achieve equality in the world as a whole.
I think her biggest legacy was that she proved that no matter how middle-of-the-road and basic a feminist critique is, there will be tens of thousands of insecure lonely uneducated young men willing to complain about it and harass people on Twitter and chans.
Oh and also that several high profile video game internet celebrities will go along with that harassment for the exposure, and suffer basically no negative consequences.
Feminist Frequency, or more accurately the Internet's reaction to it, illustrated the numerous ways in which organized grassroots bigotry, social media, male sexual insecurity, video game fandom and the nascent alt-right overlapped.
Oh and also that several high profile video game internet celebrities will go along with that harassment for the exposure, and suffer basically no negative consequences.
Feminist Frequency, or more accurately the Internet's reaction to it, illustrated the numerous ways in which organized grassroots bigotry, social media, male sexual insecurity, video game fandom and the nascent alt-right overlapped.
The "wrong person for right message" framing doesn't sit well with me. Nobody's unimpeachable, nobody's a perfect messenger for any given message. "Conceding" that she's (somehow) the wrong person for the analysis that she was delivering implicitly validates the character assassination she was a victim of, and encourages the hate mobs to use the same playbook to delegitimise the next person who comes along.
Dangansona
Member
That and the reaction they sparked was important. I hope the gaming community is less shitty today due to the surfacing of those assholes.
Edit: I need to watch one of her later videos. I've mostly just seen the early stuff.
Garrett Hawke
Member
Messofanego
Banned
Thanks for making this thread. The impact this series has had on gaming is excellent, and hope it continues to inspire devs to check their blindspots.
SynthFetish
Member
I love FF.
A lot of the games they are harsher on I had no interest in playing and the issues her videos brought up helped me realize why those titles did not interest me.
A lot of the games they are harsher on I had no interest in playing and the issues her videos brought up helped me realize why those titles did not interest me.
Yeah running a nonprofit making youtube videos about feminism is a fucking cash cow man
Not like poor starving artist Colin Moriarty, that dude suffers for his craft
Garrett Hawke
Member
/kia LMAO
SynthFetish
Member
Edit: why am I arguing with a banned account?
I sincerely think characters like Aloy from Horizon: Zero Dawn wouldn't exist without Anita's voice in the industry. She most definitely opened a lot of eyes and made people who are willing to listen more aware. I know she definitely pointed some things out to me I've never noticed before.
Abstrusity
Member
It was supremely easy to actively dislike her early on, as her tone made it feel like accusations rather than deconstruction and critique, and early gamergate used that feeling to bolster its numbers dramatically.
For what it's worth, her critique and others that even broach the subject are sorely needed, but no matter how you frame it, you'll always get someone pissed off about it, enough to harass people, openly or not. Her critique lanced the boil of the community and all the pus leaked out.
Hopefully we're past the infection stage.
For what it's worth, her critique and others that even broach the subject are sorely needed, but no matter how you frame it, you'll always get someone pissed off about it, enough to harass people, openly or not. Her critique lanced the boil of the community and all the pus leaked out.
Hopefully we're past the infection stage.
Because the bigger picture is a lame excuse, since it is made up by the aforementioned bits and pieces.
Not important.
You forgot anime avatars.
Oh yeah, all of this.
Lionel Richie
Member
Agreed. Anita at times would fall into a trap of having a thesis and instead of trying to refute it somewhat to avoid basic logical incongruences, she would just build arguments to support that pre-established thesis, which is not a very academic way of doing it and it occasionally leads to paper thin points and a lot of reaching. Regardless of that, her biggest contribution was jump starting a dormant discussion and overall bringing to light issues with the industry as a whole, which are great deals.
Kudos also for knowing when to end a series, that's definitely not always easy.
It killed some friendships for me. Brought to light some real assholes who suddenly started crying "SJW" at anything that even remotely challenged them and showed just how big of scumbags they were when they started condoning harassment of women like her and Alison Rapp.
Also made it pretty clear to me just how awful my guild's old gaming community had really become (Fires of Heaven EQ/WoW guild and Rerolled forums). I feel absolutely no regret at cutting ties with a bunch of gross MRA/Red Pill garbage human beings.
Also made it pretty clear to me just how awful my guild's old gaming community had really become (Fires of Heaven EQ/WoW guild and Rerolled forums). I feel absolutely no regret at cutting ties with a bunch of gross MRA/Red Pill garbage human beings.
I don't really agree with some of her examples and when I first saw her I thought her work was rather lazy, anyone can just open a TV tropes page and start listing examples. I got particularly miffed at some of the editings in her videos that put ICO next to Kane & Lynch as far as female characters go. A lot of the games she chooses to discuss are generic or outwardly bad (K&L noted) and it can feel like her experience with games is a very narrow one wherein she specifically seeks out an example as opposed to playing a spectrum of what is available.
However, with the explosive and vile abuse she suffered, it seems to have created a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. I'm definitely embarrassed about how people's arguments in the comments were "These games don't make men insane women objectifying grunting monsters, also I am going to rapemurder you female dog!"
🙄
At least it exists and might help people be more aware of the tropes games lazily reuse over and over. Maybe. Ask me again in 10 years.
However, with the explosive and vile abuse she suffered, it seems to have created a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. I'm definitely embarrassed about how people's arguments in the comments were "These games don't make men insane women objectifying grunting monsters, also I am going to rapemurder you female dog!"
🙄
At least it exists and might help people be more aware of the tropes games lazily reuse over and over. Maybe. Ask me again in 10 years.
SLHellbound
Banned
Well researched....lol there were numerous examples of poorly researched claims. She made money on a topic that needed discussion. Good for her. I wish she would have debated her findings with credible people with the opposite view so we could get to a reasonable consensus.
Like Aragorn of Sagat, perchance?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
CannonFodder52
Member
Do you mean respond to criticisms or literally argue over Skype to an audience? And why is she obligated to debate someone?
Kristi Winters(Feminist) vs Sargon
Pretty painful to watch. Don't think Carlgon was ready for a rational human being, as apposed to the low hanging fruit he often targets.
Vincent Alexander
Member
It is kind of fascinating for me with her videos because I can see how much I've matured along the way. I remember her very first video...I was defensive as hell because it critiqued games I liked. I pretended like I understood where she was coming from here-and-there, but was mostly a douche about it. I don't know when it happened, but a few videos in and I had dropped my guard. I started to actually listen to what she was saying, and before I knew it I was a huge Anita fan. She has done a great service to the gaming industry. But the battle isn't over.
I nearly threw up in my mouth watching a response video to one of Anita's Tropes vs. Women videos. It was on a whole other level.
It was a needed discussion and brought light to a subject that made a lot of people uncomfortable.
All this time later we still have attempted distractions with stuff that has has no relevance to the actual content should be an indicator that there's still people invested in not wanting this to be talked about.
All this time later we still have attempted distractions with stuff that has has no relevance to the actual content should be an indicator that there's still people invested in not wanting this to be talked about.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Didn't always agree with the points they made, but always appreciated the fact that they had a platform to voice their opinions. We need more thoughtful content around video games, not less.
The catalyst for GamerGate was actually right wing misogyny couched in a completely fabricated story and recruited heavily from redpillers and so on.
All of the original gamergate video makers kept going on about "morals" and "social norms" and barely anything about actual games. I've said for years that GG was a right wing astroturf movement that found a group of useful idiots to pick up their tattered, decades old misogynistic battle flag and speaking script and vocabulary. The GamerGate name itself was coined by a celebrity right winger. Just another rebrand of the usual anti-woman ideology. Literally every person they gave a platform to was a right wing conservative.
Either way, they're the definition of trying to coattail off FF because the only time their supposed heroes putout content was when she released videos that they could keyword onto.
I really like the fact that she got the conversation going on the topic. She put into words what a lot of us couldn't, or wouldn't. To say nothing of her and Feminist Frequency dealing with all the harassment that got thrown their way.
As for the videos themselves, I feel her Season 2 stuff was significantly better as she was more on point with stuff that recently happened ("Are Women Too Hard to Animate?") and all around better focused on a particular subject. Her Season 1 stuff was still pretty good too, tho.
As for the videos themselves, I feel her Season 2 stuff was significantly better as she was more on point with stuff that recently happened ("Are Women Too Hard to Animate?") and all around better focused on a particular subject. Her Season 1 stuff was still pretty good too, tho.
I like that Anita brought up the discussion (I even shared her Kickstarter around the internet), but I ultimately ended up disagreeing with the research method she used.
She never provided the whole context for the works she was criticizing, just the bits that conformed to her views. Being a youtube series, that's ok, but I expected she would leave more complete references somewhere.
Then, she clearly used her own point of view to judge the value of said works instead of asking the community she represents (aka women who play games) what they value, and then use that as a parameter to critique the trope presented.
She made the same thing with her thesis (yes, I read her thesis, I wanted to form an opinion about her work, not her).
I clearly remember the time she basically slut-shamed Bayonetta, saying her only good quality was being a mom (which Bayonetta is not). Then she deleted the video and made another one, where she slut-shames Bayonetta yet again while comparing her finishers with BDSM apparatuses, and says that BDSM is bad (which is, in my opinion, a moral judgement, something that should not have a place in a social critique).
However, many women in gaming consider Bayonetta to be a symbol of female sexual empowerment (which Anita considers a bad thing), especially because she was designed by a woman.
One could even argue that Bayonetta is an analogy to the witch hunts, from the Dark Ages, but with a twist: the women aren't powerless and they win at the end. But that's beyond my scope here.
So yeah, I like that Anita brought the discussion into the open, but I don't think her work carry too much value as a "critique" or "analysis". I saw many of her videos and noticed many, many flaws in analysis, and a lot of moral judgement, which made me sad.
Many of the points Anita criticized were "refuted" by Lianna K., showing that not all women in the gaming world agree with her. But that was barely noticeable during her rise to fame with FF, because usually criticizing Anita resulted in a violent backlash from people "pro-feminism" while being labelled "pro-patriarchy".
[And just to be clear, despite not agreeing with her, I despise the campaign of harassment that she suffered]
I strongly recommend checking Lianna K's channel to see the counterpoint to many of Anita's social/game critique. [EDIT: apparently watching Lianna's videos might make YouTube recommend some unsavory ones after that, so I recommend just checking the ones where she counterpoints Anita and leave after that]
One could argue that women showing their point of view, even if against Anita, is part of her "legacy".
She never provided the whole context for the works she was criticizing, just the bits that conformed to her views. Being a youtube series, that's ok, but I expected she would leave more complete references somewhere.
Then, she clearly used her own point of view to judge the value of said works instead of asking the community she represents (aka women who play games) what they value, and then use that as a parameter to critique the trope presented.
She made the same thing with her thesis (yes, I read her thesis, I wanted to form an opinion about her work, not her).
I clearly remember the time she basically slut-shamed Bayonetta, saying her only good quality was being a mom (which Bayonetta is not). Then she deleted the video and made another one, where she slut-shames Bayonetta yet again while comparing her finishers with BDSM apparatuses, and says that BDSM is bad (which is, in my opinion, a moral judgement, something that should not have a place in a social critique).
However, many women in gaming consider Bayonetta to be a symbol of female sexual empowerment (which Anita considers a bad thing), especially because she was designed by a woman.
One could even argue that Bayonetta is an analogy to the witch hunts, from the Dark Ages, but with a twist: the women aren't powerless and they win at the end. But that's beyond my scope here.
So yeah, I like that Anita brought the discussion into the open, but I don't think her work carry too much value as a "critique" or "analysis". I saw many of her videos and noticed many, many flaws in analysis, and a lot of moral judgement, which made me sad.
Many of the points Anita criticized were "refuted" by Lianna K., showing that not all women in the gaming world agree with her. But that was barely noticeable during her rise to fame with FF, because usually criticizing Anita resulted in a violent backlash from people "pro-feminism" while being labelled "pro-patriarchy".
[And just to be clear, despite not agreeing with her, I despise the campaign of harassment that she suffered]
I strongly recommend checking Lianna K's channel to see the counterpoint to many of Anita's social/game critique. [EDIT: apparently watching Lianna's videos might make YouTube recommend some unsavory ones after that, so I recommend just checking the ones where she counterpoints Anita and leave after that]
One could argue that women showing their point of view, even if against Anita, is part of her "legacy".
meltingparappa
Member
Her videos were frequently through lens of sex-negative, second wave feminism that threw sex workers under the bus enough times that it would've made Andrea Dworkin proud. Her critiques generally involved pointing out the existence of a trope while ignoring or misrepresenting their context, never acknowledging the intersection of technical limitations for certain decisions, all while maintaining a fairly antagonistic tone that painted game development (as opposed to fandom) as a place hostile to women despite Amy Hennig's pleas otherwise.
But compared to when she started in 2012, it was difficult enough to even start the conversation that these inarguable trends in gaming existed, much less was a problem that had the potential to be solved. She isn't remotely the first nor the most insightful of pop culture critics applying cultivation theory to an interactive adolescent medium, but she is the first to successfully package her message into digestible arguments that practically every single person on on a message board can recognize and associate with a message of: there is a problem, and we can do better.
Much like her videos themselves, there is a validity in criticising her approach and efficacy (ignoring the GG human garbage arguments), without invalidating what she has done for the industry in an extraordinarily short time amount of time.
I feel uncomfortable when her message becomes marginalized second to her being a victim, but it bears stating that she's also a much stronger person than I could ever be, for continuing to remain on point for five years in the face of a sweeping galvanized sociopolitical movement that may very well kill us all in the next month depending how the North Korea excursion goes.
Re watching the last episode, I think I've hit on what aspect of the presentation bothers me and really weakens the impact of the series as a whole. In the episode, the Lady Sidekick, she places a quick clip from Wind Waker with Link holding Medli in the Wind Temple in the center of a montage of examples of poor female sidekicks. She then discusses how Ruto is used in Ocarina of Time as a literal object. The problem is that the Wind Waker's use of companions would seem to be a better treatment of sidekicks both male and female and would presumably be an excellent example of how a progressive improvement within the series.
Wind Waker has three companion dungeons, Tower of the Gods with the statues, the Wind Temple with Makar (male), and the Earth Temple with Medli (female). And of those characters, Medli is actually the most capable, able to fly, carry Link, and direct light with her harp. While Makar, against typical gender roles, is captured by the dungeon's foes and has to be rescued before advancing. Isn't that a good example of gender representation? So why is it lumped in the bad montage? There is no explanation presented in the video itself or in the transcript hosted on their website, so the viewer familiar with WW has no option but to develop their own hypothesis on why it appears there. This ambiguity practically invites the kind of hateful thinking that teems within Gamergate groups and leaves level-headed viewers simply stumped.
I think this is the core reason why Tropes Against Women doesn't get the even keel critique other "academic" looks at games get. Not having footnotes or other clarifying notes makes it hard to take some of its arguments seriously, because after being presented with an ambiguous point the entire work will be will be viewed with a higher level of skepticism. It's a real shame that Feminist Frequency didn't take the time to clarify these elements or to directly address questions about their work. I think the series as a whole would have benefited from a breather FAQ episode that could provide answers for some of the series' questionable statements.
Wind Waker has three companion dungeons, Tower of the Gods with the statues, the Wind Temple with Makar (male), and the Earth Temple with Medli (female). And of those characters, Medli is actually the most capable, able to fly, carry Link, and direct light with her harp. While Makar, against typical gender roles, is captured by the dungeon's foes and has to be rescued before advancing. Isn't that a good example of gender representation? So why is it lumped in the bad montage? There is no explanation presented in the video itself or in the transcript hosted on their website, so the viewer familiar with WW has no option but to develop their own hypothesis on why it appears there. This ambiguity practically invites the kind of hateful thinking that teems within Gamergate groups and leaves level-headed viewers simply stumped.
I think this is the core reason why Tropes Against Women doesn't get the even keel critique other "academic" looks at games get. Not having footnotes or other clarifying notes makes it hard to take some of its arguments seriously, because after being presented with an ambiguous point the entire work will be will be viewed with a higher level of skepticism. It's a real shame that Feminist Frequency didn't take the time to clarify these elements or to directly address questions about their work. I think the series as a whole would have benefited from a breather FAQ episode that could provide answers for some of the series' questionable statements.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I hope she continues to make videos about games under a feminist lens. It doesn't have to be a series like Tropes vs Women, but maybe just reviews of games. I think it would be interesting, with the added benefit of exposing more reactionaries who have repugnant ideals.
Never mind, I'm reading some of her stuff on metaleater now.
fabricated backlash
Member
My only complaints are small technicalities, and shouldn't detract from what she achieved with the series.
I think Anita already had a positive impact on many designers in the industry, which is why you have GG running scared.
I think Anita already had a positive impact on many designers in the industry, which is why you have GG running scared.