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Why is Game Freak so incompetent?

B

bennywhatever

Member
Tetranet said:
Huh? What? So you're claiming that for most people all that work in the designs and the art style is inconsequential and irrelevant to the experience? Graphics, the entire visual department, are paramount in Pokemon. Where would Pokemon be without the colorful creatures themselves, so expertly designed from day 1 by Sugimori & Game Freak in general? It's completely inane to suggest that Pokemon graphics have nothing to do with their success.
Click to expand...

If they're so paramount, people wouldn't be going back and replaying old Pokemon games so much.
Yes, a better system should mean better graphics (and it did in the case of X/Y). But, Pokemon is known for its gameplay, not its graphics. No one would play this game if it wasn't fun.
If they came out with a retro-style Pokemon game that used similar graphics as the GBA games, but an insane amount of gameplay, I'd buy it in a heartbeat as well as thousands of others.
 
S

Spinosaurus

Member
Man ever since gen 4 Pokemon games have ran like ass. X/Y was the last straw for me.

Gen 3 is my favorite, but I'll stick with the originals. No matter how much new features and additions they add (most that I find to be nothing but a distraction anyway), it doesn't make up for the worse performance. R/S/E was 60fps and played very smoothly.
 
B

BeatResetsTheWorld

Banned
LeleSocho said:
15 never but low 20 yes



Dude you really need to stop defending your treasured franchise this much, i understand that you own one of the biggest websites dedicated for it and you can't let people talk bad about the franchise because you got to keep the clicks coming but you need to moderate yourself.

1) The games mentioned looks miles better than X&Y
2) When you say that the models are not as detailed as XY you "forget" to mention that those are only when you battle but in reality outside battles everything looks like crap
3) Snake's model on MGS3 (the original on ps2) has 3800 polygons and the 3ds version has better models than the original, to add to that they are better textured than pokémon and that can be up to (if memory serves me right) 5 of these models with roughly the same quality on screen, rounded for the worse that's 15000 polygons at once now i don't know how many poly the pokemons have but i doubt that every one of them has 7000 polys and even if it was they always "live" in a 2d arenas opposed to mgs3d and with worse textures.

Seriously i understand and all but do not try to defend what can't be defended.
Click to expand...

Wrong...Pokemon X/Y models are WAY higher in polygons. Maybe my methodology is faulty, but I found a site that has model rips (not sure if I can post it here but PM me for details). I opened a random model of an evolved pokemon, something complex (Machamp) in my case. Says there are around 12k triangles. Let's look at an average wifi match, 2v2, and say on average a model has 10k, then we're looking at 40k polygons for a 2v2 battle

It's no wonder they can't get it to run at full speed with 3d in battles. Even taking into consideration reduced poly models for horde battles...that's still a ton
CetCrlG.png
 
L

LeleSocho

Banned
BeatResetsTheWorld said:
Wrong...Pokemon X/Y models are WAY higher in polygons. Maybe my methodology is fault, but I found a site that has model rips (not sure if I can post it here but PM me for details). I opened a random model of an evolved pokemon, something complex (Machamp) in my case. Says there are around 12k triangles. Let's look at an average wifi match, 2v2, and say on average a model has 10k, then we're looking at 40k polygons for a 2v2 battle

It's no wonder they can't get it to run at full speed with 3d in battles. Even taking into consideration reduced poly models for horde battles...that's still a ton
CetCrlG.png
Click to expand...

Oh wow i stand corrected..
I sincerely thought that the models were half of that (6000 for the most complex), well that's what i get for not searching data i guess.
I deserve all the shit possible :p

But i am still correct that the otherworld has no reason to look that bad.
 
J

JoeM86

Member
LeleSocho said:
Dude you really need to stop defending your treasured franchise this much, i understand that you own one of the biggest websites dedicated for it and you can't let people talk bad about the franchise because you got to keep the clicks coming but you need to moderate yourself.

1) The games mentioned looks miles better than X&Y
2) When you say that the models are not as detailed as XY you "forget" to mention that those are only when you battle but in reality outside battles everything looks like crap
3) Snake's model on MGS3 (the original on ps2) has 3800 polygons and the 3ds version has better models than the original, to add to that they are better textured than pokémon and that can be up to (if memory serves me right) 5 of these models with roughly the same quality on screen, rounded for the worse that's 15000 polygons at once now i don't know how many poly the pokemons have but i doubt that every one of them has 7000 polys and even if it was they always "live" in a 2d arenas opposed to mgs3d and with worse textures.

Seriously i understand and all but do not try to defend what can't be defended.
Click to expand...

I think it's a bit unfair to try and downplay my views just because I run the site. I'm not defending it, as there are issues that do need to be resolved, what I'm doing is explaining.

Edit: Oh, beaten to the punch.

LeleSocho said:
But i am still correct that the otherworld has no reason to look that bad.
Click to expand...

I agree. I wish there was parity in trainer models and thus overworld between overworld and battle. However, I can understand it due to how they load the world. They aren't just loading one route or one city, they're loading multiple routes, cities etc. up for seamless play. That's why there's no stereoscopic 3D, and that's why the overworld models are comparatively lower in polygon count and quality
 
L

Lebon14

Member
I personally... don't care very much. I just want to enjoy the game. But that doesn't mean I don't notice it though because I do.
 
T

trixx

Member
QueenOfThorns said:
I don't know if they're incompetent, but they're certainly lazy. Taking away features every game instead of adding them is some sims bullshit. I don't know why they work so hard to have these cool features (pokemon following you, trainer customization, clothes shops) just to take them away for the next game. These should not be a one game only feature to make each game distinct.

If "You can change your outfits in this game" is the best thing they can do to make a region unique then maybe they are incompetent.

Definitely skipping out on the Ruby/Sapphire remakes. I thought XY were a nice step forward...but as Gamefreak always does they stop there and probably won't do anything drastically new for generations. I still don't like how zoomed out the camera is. The 3D was nice, a transition the series needed to make, but now it's time to take away the tile based movement. It's 2014 and I'm sure they could find something else to determine random pokemon battles.

Also, this applies to a lot of games from Nintendo that aren't Mario, but is anyone else really tired of the music in Pokemon games? I'd really like a lot more orchestrated tracks, or at least the electronic style XY had at times. The awful midi sound they started using since the GBA games and hasn't changed that much since really annoys me. I'm not even going to play the remakes because I know the second I hear those fake horns I'll kill myself.
Click to expand...

I think this is what gets me the most. Why do they keep adding and removing content? Usually game sequels add on to the content of previous games, but not this one.

They implement pokemon following you, they remove it. They implement clothing change, they remove it. Look at the post game in pokemon x and y, it's laughable. Previous entries has the battle tower, why not this game. Previous entries allowed you to rebattle gym leaders, why not this one? Previous entries made elite four stronger after first completion. Again why is this feature missing in this game. You can go on and on..

Then they will implement the featurs in the sequel version smh
 
J

JoeM86

Member
trixx said:
I think this is what gets me the most. Why do they keep adding and removing content? Usually game sequels add on to the content of previous games, but not this one.

They implement pokemon following you, they remove it. They implement clothing change, they remove it. Look at the post game in pokemon x and y, it's laughable. Previous entries has the battle tower, why not this game. Previous entries allowed you to rebattle gym leaders, why not this one? Previous entries made elite four stronger after first completion. Again why is this feature missing in this game. You can go on and on..

Then they will implement the featurs in the sequel version smh
Click to expand...

To be fair, X & Y has an equivalent to the Battle Tower. It's the Battle Tower in all but name and aesthetics...

Lack of clothing customisation also does somewhat make sense seeing as this is a remake. Though I'd have expected them to add it in the post-game, but alas...it wasn't meant to be.
 
T

trixx

Member
JoeM86 said:
To be fair, X & Y has an equivalent to the Battle Tower. It's the Battle Tower in all but name and aesthetics...

Lack of clothing customisation also does somewhat make sense seeing as this is a remake. Though I'd have expected them to add it in the post-game, but alas...it wasn't meant to be.
Click to expand...

my bad forgotabout battle mansion. I meant something like the battle frontier that seems to only appear in the subsequent version
 
N

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
The first Pokemon editions (blue/red/yellow) as well as gold/silver are extremely impressive to me since they run on the fricking old gameboy. But with Ruby and Sapphire already it became less and less technically impressive for the respective hardware iteration and by now it's a bad joke as far as I'm concerned.

Considering the insane profit these games make every single darn time I find it simply laughable that this is the kind of quality we're now to expect from Gamefreak. I don't care about the team size, I don't care about the individual employee's competency. What I do care about is the state of the darn games, and as far as I'm concerned they're lacking severely, in gameplay but especially technicality. So high more, educate your current staff better or do whatever the fuck you want with the many millions in profit.

Or don't, because fuck me sideways if the majority of your fanbase even gives the slightest fuck that—even this insanely iterative—game franchise fails to deliver on technicality when that's pretty much the only thing they ever have to worry about. These guys never have to program or think about entirely new combat systems, grand story telling and actually clever puzzles and whatnot.

Yet, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, handheld franchise(s) continues to underpeform technically because why would they change that if most fans will buy it without doubt every time. Why indeed.

edit:
Should the full ORAS games really still suffer this badly from framerate issues then I'm not even sure what to say. In my mind this was inexcusable for what you'd want to be a flagship 3DS title and first 3D pokemon experience the last time around. But if this actually persists...like what the fucking hell.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
It's that frame rate that gets me, especially since the one thing that sets it off every time (Horde battles) is a key new feature.

I'm eyeing what they do with these remakes and if they overcome this.
 
B

BodiesWithoutOrgans

Member
Bulbasaur said:
I somewhat agree. After seeing Yokai Watch, Pokemon x y etc are just lacking to me, visually.
Click to expand...

GSC post game ruins any other pokemon post game

after clearing the game why cant we just go to the previous game region :(

not putting old main series pokemon games on e-shop is rubbish

introducing cool feature and jsut taking them away like your pokemon following you :(
 
F

Foffy

Banned
BeatResetsTheWorld said:
LOL, seriously show me ANY DS game that has anything approaching this. Saying this looks like an upscaled DS game is a joke.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the shading. You know, the grey outlines and all of that sort of jazz you'd see in most DS games seems to be what they went with for Pokemon on 3DS. I find it jarring because it looks like an outdated technique to use, and this is a series that up until a few years ago didn't even have fully animated battle sprites in their games, so it just seems like they're consistently behind-the-times in that regard.
 
B

BeatResetsTheWorld

Banned
Foffy said:
I was referring to the shading. You know, the grey outlines and all of that sort of jazz you'd see in most DS games seems to be what they went with for Pokemon on 3DS. I find it jarring because it looks like an outdated technique to use, and this is a series that up until a few years ago didn't even have fully animated battle sprites in their games, so it just seems like they're consistently behind-the-times in that regard.
Click to expand...

The shading and outlines are done intentionally though. It's not some old technique, they want it to maintain it's cartoonish look. It's why they didn't go with the normal shading that was done for the Pokedex 3DS app
 
W

wmlk

Member
Foffy said:
I was referring to the shading. You know, the grey outlines and all of that sort of jazz you'd see in most DS games seems to be what they went with for Pokemon on 3DS. I find it jarring because it looks like an outdated technique to use, and this is a series that up until a few years ago didn't even have fully animated battle sprites in their games, so it just seems like they're consistently behind-the-times in that regard.
Click to expand...

Criticizing the series intentional art direction as 'behind the times' is kinda weird, that's all. That's something else entirely.
 
I

Ingueferroque

Banned
bennywhatever said:
If they're so paramount, people wouldn't be going back and replaying old Pokemon games so much.
Yes, a better system should mean better graphics (and it did in the case of X/Y). But, Pokemon is known for its gameplay, not its graphics. No one would play this game if it wasn't fun.
If they came out with a retro-style Pokemon game that used similar graphics as the GBA games, but an insane amount of gameplay, I'd buy it in a heartbeat as well as thousands of others.
Click to expand...

I think you're mistaking good graphics with technical prowess. What the other guy is saying is that Pokemon games have always been expertly designed (visually).

Not many would go back to the original Gameboy games if they weren't so charming and memorable.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
BodiesWithoutOrgans said:
GSC post game ruins any other pokemon post game

after clearing the game why cant we just go to the previous game region :(

not putting old main series pokemon games on e-shop is rubbish

introducing cool feature and jsut taking them away like your pokemon following you :(
Click to expand...

Are you not big into pokemon? Cause most of the things your saying tend not to be opinions of people who are serious fans of the series.

GSC postgame is incredibly shallow. The level increase in between each gym is absolutely pathetic, and once you beat red (in GS) there's absolutely nothing left outside of completion. Crystal has a battle tower, but it's very much barebones.

The older (GB/GBC) pokemon games aren't on the E-Shop because gamefreak's vision for pokemon is that it's a social game. You interact with other real people to trade pokemon and battle. Until there's the ability to emulate a link cable on the 3DS, there's absolutely no chance of them putting the games on the eshop.

Not every game has multiple regions for a few reasons, some of them are arguably greedy (the ability to put out more games) but there are also practical reasons. Why didn't Skyrim include all of the world instead of limiting it to just skyrim?

I don't disagree that Gamefreak does some really shitty things, but if you're going to complain you might as well focus on the things they actually do poorly instead of the minor ones...
 
J

JoeM86

Member
BodiesWithoutOrgans said:
GSC post game ruins any other pokemon post game

after clearing the game why cant we just go to the previous game region :(

not putting old main series pokemon games on e-shop is rubbish

introducing cool feature and jsut taking them away like your pokemon following you :(
Click to expand...

GSC post-game is deceptive.

Yeah, it's another region, but the region is empty as hell. There's no progression in it. It's just there, no trainers on the overworld, just go through it. The inclusion of it also affected balance in the overall game, making the Elite Four not even Level 50.

Old games aren't on the Virtual Console due to lack of communication features.

NaDannMaGoGo said:
The first Pokemon editions (blue/red/yellow) as well as gold/silver are extremely impressive to me since they run on the fricking old gameboy. But with Ruby and Sapphire already it became less and less technically impressive for the respective hardware iteration and by now it's a bad joke as far as I'm concerned.

Considering the insane profit these games make every single darn time I find it simply laughable that this is the kind of quality we're now to expect from Gamefreak. I don't care about the team size, I don't care about the individual employee's competency. What I do care about is the state of the darn games, and as far as I'm concerned they're lacking severely, in gameplay but especially technicality. So high more, educate your current staff better or do whatever the fuck you want with the many millions in profit.

Or don't, because fuck me sideways if the majority of your fanbase even gives the slightest fuck that—even this insanely iterative—game franchise fails to deliver on technicality when that's pretty much the only thing they ever have to worry about. These guys never have to program or think about entirely new combat systems, grand story telling and actually clever puzzles and whatnot.

Yet, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, handheld franchise(s) continues to underpeform technically because why would they change that if most fans will buy it without doubt every time. Why indeed.

edit:
Should the full ORAS games really still suffer this badly from framerate issues then I'm not even sure what to say. In my mind this was inexcusable for what you'd want to be a flagship 3DS title and first 3D pokemon experience the last time around. But if this actually persists...like what the fucking hell.
Click to expand...

Generation 1 & 2 were nowhere near technical excellence on the GameBoy. There are far more impressive games from beforehand.. They were simple in aesthetics and Generation 1 had some crazy glitches.

You say they never have to program new things? That's not true. The battle system goes through overhauls every generation. There are loads of new mechanics. Also, the people who do that are different to the ones who deal with the aesthetics. They are not the same staff members.
 
T

takriel

Member
JoeM86 said:
To be fair, X & Y has an equivalent to the Battle Tower. It's the Battle Tower in all but name and aesthetics...

Lack of clothing customisation also does somewhat make sense seeing as this is a remake. Though I'd have expected them to add it in the post-game, but alas...it wasn't meant to be.
Click to expand...

I don't think this makes much sense at all. They should totally follow suit to today's standards and let players customize their avatar's clothes. It makes it that much more personal. It did wonders for me in XY. I don't know how you can look at its exclusion in any other way but seeing it as a step backwards.
 
J

JoeM86

Member
takriel said:
I don't think this makes much sense at all. They should totally follow suit to today's standards and let players customize their avatar's clothes. It makes it that much more personal. It did wonders for me in XY. I don't know how you can look at its exclusion in any other way but seeing it as a step backwards.
Click to expand...

Why should they follow "standards". Following standards in the industry is a terrible thing.

Besides, I was agreeing that I wish that it was in it... I was just saying that I understand why it may not be because this is a remake of a game that lacked it.
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
BeatResetsTheWorld said:
LOL, seriously show me ANY DS game that has anything approaching this. Saying this looks like an upscaled DS game is a joke. You guys can complain about the overworld, because that's bullshit, but the in battle models are fairly high polygon compared to anything else on the system and let's not get into when we do horde battles or 2v2 matches
Click to expand...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyO8LNX1iLo

Look at this trailer for a DS game. Then again, Dragon Quest titles have always been good looking.
 
S

Sylfurd

Member
Caracters / pokemon models are wonderful on 3DS, high details, beautifuly animated and the cel shading is one of the best I've ever seen, the 1 pixel thin outlines are perfect. I think they use a special shader build in hardware since the Ds to draw them and it looks fantastic ! They're not just model outlines, they're also drawn over the models to distinguish different parts of it, it's really unique !
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
SuperSah said:
After the demo, I cancelled my preorder.

After 60fps Smash in 3D, they have no excuses.
Click to expand...
Except that the battle models in Pokemon are way higher poly than the Smash 3D models. Why is the frame rate so important in a turn based RPG? In 2D the frame rate is pretty stable in the ORAS demo. Also long as the game is good why does it matter? It seems like such a dumb superficial reason to cancel your preorder for a game that doesn't require time button presses or coordination.

Oh yeah, Smash also reboots the 3DS into a state that disables most of the OS just to run like it does, and it still loads pretty slow.
 
S

Saintguine

Member
I don't know if this was changed in the new Pokemon game but I still don't understand why Pokemon still restricts you to one save. I could sort of understand it for the cartridge days where storage of vasts amounts of information was a factor but nowadays there's storage drives in the DS and 3DS and other games such as Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Shin Megami Tensei, the Mario RPGs, Persona allows for multiple saves.

Like with a modern storage drive, I doubt a Pokemon save would be that large. Even Skyrim saves won't take up a lot of space and there's a lot of information like records and scripts in Skyrim that need to be saved in a save.
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
animlboogy said:
The DS games on have been terrible to play. Just unpleasant. The design is already intentionally a bit slow and tedious, which I can normally tolerate, but the shit performance just ruins it for me. I'd rather play DQ games to get my smart and simple RPG fix.

In fact, speaking of DQ, Pokemon releases are like if the DQ8 mobile port looked even worse and ran exactly the same shitty way.
Click to expand...
Gen 4 was slow, D/P especially, but Gen 5 was fast and outside of the horrid frame rate in 3D and some frame dips in 2D XY is only sighly slower than Gen 5.
animlboogy said:
Yeah, lets pretend all the other RPGs on 3DS run as poorly as Pokemon does.
Click to expand...
No other 3DS RPG uses models even close to the Pokemon poly counts.
 
O

Orniletter

Banned
animlboogy said:
Yeah, lets pretend all the other RPGs on 3DS run as poorly as Pokemon does.
Click to expand...

Yeah, which one does run significantly better ?

Mario and Luigi ? Bravely Default ? Tales of the Abyss 3D ?

I´m not making excuses for the 3D mode, that should have been disabled, but it runs around 30 fps in 2D...like pretty much every other JRPG on the 3DS.
 
O

Orniletter

Banned
animlboogy said:
My roommate has it and it does not come off as consistent 30 at all. Lots of frame drops.

I understand that the models are apparently high poly bur that's exactly the point. These are simple games that can look good and run well. They aren't developed that way for a reason. It turns me off, but clearly they still sell.
Click to expand...

I mean, I don´t disagree that X and Y have framerate drops here and there and could be more polished...

...but acting like they run at Skyrim PS3 levels of bad and calling GF lazy, incompetent and whatever like many people in this thread....or comparing Pokemon to a game in a completely different genre reeks of internet hyperbole.
 
B

Brawly Likes to Brawl

Member
JoeM86 said:
Why should they follow "standards". Following standards in the industry is a terrible thing.

Besides, I was agreeing that I wish that it was in it... I was just saying that I understand why it may not be because this is a remake of a game that lacked it.
Click to expand...

People really need to stop using this excuse. The whole point of a remake is to add new features and content not present in the original. Plus the director's (ridiculous) rationale was that the concept of fashion was a Kalos exclusive thing. Decisions like that are the reason why people like OP are questioning GF's competency.
 
J

JoeM86

Member
Brawly Likes to Brawl said:
People really need to stop using this excuse. The whole point of a remake is to add new features and content not present in the original. Plus the director's (ridiculous) rationale was that the concept of fashion was a Kalos exclusive thing. Decisions like that are the reason why people like OP are questioning GF's competency.
Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with competency. It's a design decision. You may not like it, but it has nothing to do with competency.

They also like to stay true to the originals in the first part of the game with remakes. For example, FireRed & LeafGreen even blocked you from evolving Pokémon into ones that weren't in the original 151.
 
SoulUnison

SoulUnison

Banned
Brian★;135825376 said:
Isn't Pokemon in Smash running on 30fps? Why are we complaining? Who even uses 3D on the 3DS. .-.
Click to expand...

Bought my first 3DS the day they came to NA, have thousand of hours in my Activity Log, have turned the 3D off a small handful of times.

Favorite new Nintendo handheld feature.
 
R

RockmanWhore

Member
Is the framerate that bad on that demo? It's really disapointing, after the poor performance of XY, I would have thought that Gamefreak would have made a priority to get better framerate on the next game. I hope the game will run better on the New 3DS and its new CPU.
 
J

JoeM86

Member
RockmanWhore said:
Is the framerate that bad on that demo? It's really disapointing, after the poor performance of XY, I would have thought that Gamefreak would have made a priority to get better framerate on the next game. I hope the game will run better on the New 3DS and its new CPU.
Click to expand...

It really isn't. People are hyperbolising. The framerate is, at worst, on par with X & Y, but I personally find it is smoother.
 
H

-Horizon-

Member
RockmanWhore said:
Is the framerate that bad on that demo? It's really disapointing, after the poor performance of XY, I would have thought that Gamefreak would have made a priority to get better framerate on the next game. I hope the game will run better on the New 3DS and its new CPU.
Click to expand...
I thought it was fine except for a few noticeable drops during a couple of battle camera movements. I'm no expert though.
 
S

Speedwagon

Michelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel. Yabuki turned off voice chat in Mario Kart races. True artists of their time.
Brian★;135825376 said:
Isn't Pokemon in Smash running on 30fps? Why are we complaining? Who even uses 3D on the 3DS. .-.
Click to expand...

I do.
 
P

Pennywise83

Banned
I don't like all the extreme positions many have taken here (Joe on one side, and Pie and Beans on the other, to take two examples).

But.

I played Pokémon X and yeah, it was a bit disappointing on a technical side. They have high-polygons models? Then, they should have sacrified a bit the looking in battles and give a proper framerate and a propert worldmap.
 
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