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Azzurri · Jun 24, 2015

Ok, this primarily pertains to MMO's since their constantly going through updates.

I bring this up in light of the release of FFXIV new expansion Heavensward. If you didn't know and I'm sure a lot don't, but if you want to play the new x-pac, you basically have to slog through a good 50+ hours of Main Story Quest to even sniff the new zones. This wouldn't be all that bad if you could solo the quests, but the problem is that some are gated behind doing dungeons with other people, well considering the people are doing the new stuff, that leaves queue times for these dungeons pretty long, and if you don't have a lot of time to play you're SoL.

I get they want to you to experience the story because it leads up to the new x-pac, but let's be honest here people don't play MMO's for the story, they skip cut scenes, and speed through text not even knowing what's going on because they want to hit max level. Also, I can go to youtube if I really want to to catch up on the story.

What they need to do is usher new and returning players into the x-pac w/o having to go through all the old and boring fetch quest before you can touch the new zones. It just seems like a great way to lose potential customers who want to play only finding out you have to complete the old stuff before you can play the new stuff. There's not even a mention when you buy the game on their site of you having to complete the main story line before entering foot in the new zones.

I sure people will disagree, but it just seems like it's bad design and business if they want returning or new players to buy their x-pac, yet you have to do this this and this.

They need a good 10-15 hour prologue to get you up and running (learning your class, and the other stuff about the game) and after that, boom you're good to go.

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

They've told the existing player base for months you'd need completion of the previous story for Heavensward content.

Also since the new jobs start at 30, they'll be populating the 30-50 range of dungeons.

Azzurri · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
They've told the existing player base for months you'd need completion of the previous story for Heavensward content.

Also since the new jobs start at 30, they'll be populating the 30-50 range of dungeons.

Ok,how about people who don't keep up, or what about a completely new player who doesn't follow the game?

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Ok, people who keep up, but what about a completely new player who doesn't follow the game?

Why do they care about rushing to Ishgard and ignoring a good 2 years of content that is still worth running through?

1.21Gigawatts · Jun 24, 2015

One of the things I appreachiate about Destiny: If you missed one expansion it doesn't really matter. The equipment you get in the next expansion makes the old one obsolet and you can just hop in again.

Downside is that people who grinded for months to get all the best stuff end up having a bunch of useless shit once the next expansion hits.

Foffy · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Ok, people who don't keep up, but what about a completely new player who doesn't follow the game?

They merely have more content to play with. Why, exactly, is that bad?

zychi · Jun 24, 2015

I thought this was going to be about new game + in games and how you habe to beat some games twice to get the real ending.

Mmos are one of the few genres complaining about this doesnt make sense

coredecepts · Jun 24, 2015

Why do I have to play all the levels in order to fight the final boss?

ponpo · Jun 24, 2015

If I had to do all those boring quests and dungeons then you do too （￣へ￣）

WarMacheen · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Ok,how about people who don't keep up, or what about a completely new player who doesn't follow the game?

Why would a completely new player want to skip 1-50 content to play new content when the content they are playing is new to them

Azzurri · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
Why do they care about rushing to Ishgard and ignoring a good 2 years of content that is still worth running through?

Because they see the game and wanted to play right away because what they saw on youtube or whatevet. A lot of MMO's players are not as informed as gaffers

Foffy said:
They merely have more content to play with. Why, exactly, is that bad?

But they if they went in blind like a lot of potential new players and want to play Ishgard it's a huge let down.

DuffDry · Jun 24, 2015

Once an MMO has gotten rolling, aren't most of the players at the endgame? If what they're doing is catering to the majority of their players, I'd consider that an example of good game design.

Either way, if there's so much of XIV you haven't played, keeping you from the new content, why are you in such a hurry to see the new content anyway? Most expansion packs treat the player as if they've completed the base game already.

Nastrodamous · Jun 24, 2015

This is the biggest reason I didn't start final fantasy. I have better things to do than do old content just to use my $50 purchase

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

Also,

I get they want to you to experience the story because it leads up to the new x-pac, but let's be honest here people don't play MMO's for the story, they skip cut scenes, and speed through text not even knowing what's going on because they want to hit max level. Also, I can go to youtube if I really want to to catch up on the story.

I never understood this argument because if one had any real interest in the game they would have had more than a year to hit max level as you'd actually have a wealth of relevant content waiting for you there in all the EX Primals, Coil, and 24-mans.

If you want to rush max level in Heavensward you only have the 2 EX Primals, 2 dungeons, and hunts at the end to do.

Jackson · Jun 24, 2015

Gating new content behind old content is bad game design.

Final Fantasy XIV Expansion thread?

Final Fantasy XIV Expansion thread.

Knew it the second I saw the title. lol

Azzurri · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
Also,

I never understood this argument because if one had any real interest in the game they would have had more than a year to hit max level as you'd actually have a wealth of relevant content waiting for you there in all the EX Primals, Coil, and 24-mans.

If you want to rush max level in Heavensward you only have the 2 EX Primals, 2 dungeons, and hunts at the end to do.

Yea, but the majority of players do this exact thing. Just look how many people race to max when an mmo is released or x-pac. Story's in MMO are usually crap anyways, it's not meant to played for the story, it's just filler for 95% of the player base.

Bisonian · Jun 24, 2015

Couldn't agree more. Had a small group of friends who played the FFXIV: ARR and then dropped off between when 2.1 and 2.2 came out. When they heard they'd have to do a week or two of story quests (aka teleport around the world and talk to NPCs) before they could play with the rest of us, they said "thanks, but no thanks", and went to play the Warcraft content patch that released on the same day.

I get that Square wants everyone to care about their story and makes a big deal about it, but you can't, and shouldn't, force people to watch it. People are going to hit escape and then skip your 90 minute cutscene ending if they don't care. Don't make them jump through the hoops to try to play the expansion they want to pay for and enjoy.

One of the many dark spots on this game, along with just a really unfun levelling experience for many reasons, that has me disappointed with Heavensward. This coming from someone who enjoyed almost all of the 2.0 content.

Skilletor · Jun 24, 2015

Yeah, I've got a level 50 character, but stopped playing and now I've got too much shit to do to catch up when all I really want is to check out the new areas and get a flying mount. I don't know if it's bad game design, but it's certainly inconvenient in this instance. Glad I didn't buy the expansion.

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Yea, but the majority of players do this exact thing. Just look how many people race to max when an mmo is released or x-pac.

Ok? I'm saying if people really wanted to have access to Ishgard at launch they had months to over a year to hit 50 and complete the main story. If you haven't done something as simple as hitting 50 and bopping a bunch of story quests why care about what's at 60.

Story's in MMO are usually crap anyways, it's not meant to played for the story, it's just filler for 95% of the player base.

Lol ok.

ClosingADoor · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Also, I can go to youtube if I really want to to catch up on the story.

I'm getting old or something. This is one of the saddest things I've read about games in a while.

I do get the annoyance that some parts need to be played with multiple people. But that also is kind of the point of an MMO, playing together.

People who are getting expansions packs are mostly invested in the game already, so wouldn't most have played all content already and want more?

Azzurri · Jun 24, 2015

Bisonian said:
Couldn't agree more. Had a small group of friends who played the FFXIV: ARR and then dropped off between when 2.1 and 2.2 came out. When they heard they'd have to do a week or two of story quests (aka teleport around the world and talk to NPCs) before they could play with the rest of us, they said "thanks, but no thanks", and went to play the Warcraft content patch that released on the same day.

I get that Square wants everyone to care about their story and makes a big deal about it, but you can't, and shouldn't, force people to watch it. People are going to hit escape and then skip your 90 minute cutscene ending if they don't care. Don't make them jump through the hoops to try to play the expansion they want to pay for and enjoy.

One of the many dark spots on this game, along with just a really unfun levelling experience for many reasons, that has me disappointed with Heavensward. This coming from someone who enjoyed almost all of the 2.0 content.

This is what I'm saying, it's extremely discouraging for a new or returning player who wants to jump in with their friends who have been playing, or by themselves to experience the new stuff like 99% of the player base.

I'm not saying give me a 50, all I'm saying is you shouldn't gate the new stuff behind old stuff people are not doing anymore which a new or returning player needs to do advance. Just give me an abridge version of what's happening w/o me jumping through hoops and making me watch hours of cut scene's just because you want to artificially extend my time.

DJIzana · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Ok, this primarily pertains to MMO's since their constantly going through updates.

I bring this up in light of the release of FFXIV new expansion Heavensward. If you didn't know and I'm sure a lot don't, but if you want to play the new x-pac, you basically have to slog through a good 50+ hours of Main Story Quest to even sniff the new zones. This wouldn't be all that bad if you could solo the quests, but the problem is that some are gated behind doing dungeons with other people, well considering the people are doing the new stuff, that leaves queue times for these dungeons pretty long, and if you don't have a lot of time to play you're SoL.

I get they want to you to experience the story because it leads up to the new x-pac, but let's be honest here people don't play MMO's for the story, they skip cut scenes, and speed through text not even knowing what's going on because they want to hit max level. Also, I can go to youtube if I really want to to catch up on the story.

What they need to do is usher new and returning players into the x-pac w/o having to go through all the old and boring fetch quest before you can touch the new zones. It just seems like a great way to lose potential customers who want to play only finding out you have to complete the old stuff before you can play the new stuff. There's not even a mention when you buy the game on their site of you having to complete the main story line before entering foot in the new zones.

I sure people will disagree, but it just seems like it's bad design and business if they want returning or new players to buy their x-pac, yet you have to do this this and this.

They need a good 10-15 hour prologue to get you up and running (learning your class, and the other stuff about the game) and after that, boom you're good to go.

Really? Could have fooled me. On Ultros, low level queue times are instant. Even in Heavensward AS DPS NO LESS (I know this as I'm leveling a Machinist).

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

Skilletor said:
Yeah, I've got a level 50 character, but stopped playing and now I've got too much shit to do to catch up when all I really want is to check out the new areas and get a flying mount. I don't know if it's bad game design, but it's certainly inconvenient in this instance. Glad I didn't buy the expansion.

If you can't find the will to do a bunch of story quests to open up Ishgard you probably won't for the quests to open up everything else in Heavensward anyways.

VanillaCakeIsBurning · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Yea, but the majority of players do this exact thing. Just look how many people race to max when an mmo is released or x-pac. Story's in MMO are usually crap anyways, it's not meant to played for the story, it's just filler for 95% of the player base.

Most of the promotions for the game have focused on the story. Not sure how that counts as filler.

I don't know if you've played the game before but unlike many MMO's they put the story front and center here. Whether you think it's crap or not is irrelevant to the fact that a lot of people look forward to the story in this game specifically because they enjoy it.

diablos991 · Jun 24, 2015

Lol at all these people saying MMO stories is crap to 95% of the playerbase.

This is Final Fantasy! We live for good stories. This story is on the level of a single player FF entry and it would be a disservice to skip the whole first half.

wildfire · Jun 24, 2015

That's rarely a case of bad game design. Up until Splatoon I haven't seen anyone complain about their games lacking content. They complained about having to pay more to unlock the extras.

This is for practical concerns seemingly a bad business strategy. Yet for all the problems that come with it people still buy that gated software so not as many people are rejecting the idea as we would like.

Skilletor · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
If you can't find the will to do a bunch of story quests to open up Ishgard you probably won't for the quests to open up everything else in Heavensward anyways.

Nah, if I could have hopped on with my friends doing the new shit immediately I would have played. Now I have to hop on with my friends doing the new shit and have nobody to do the old shit with.

True Fire · Jun 24, 2015

On the contrary, I think making old content obsolete is bad game design, because it punishes latecomers to the game. This strategy means that, ten years from now, new players will be able to experience a 1000 hour masterpiece.

Robin64 · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
What they need to do is usher new and returning players into the x-pac w/o having to go through all the old and boring fetch quest before you can touch the new zones.

This is exactly what World of Warcraft's latest expansion does. Buy it and you can be instantly level 90 in Draenor, the new zone.

And even past ones only asked you to hit previous max level, not do all the quests too.

SomeRandomWeirdGuy · Jun 24, 2015

I don't understand this opinion. If you don't care about the story at all, then why the hell are you playing a Final Fantasy MMO? The whole point of EVERYTHING in it is the story. You have no context for anything without it, and if you subtract it, it's functionally the same as every other themepark mmo in the universe, except slower

Skilletor · Jun 24, 2015

SomeRandomWeirdGuy said:
I don't understand this opinion. If you don't care about the story at all, then why the hell are you playing a Final Fantasy MMO? The whole point of EVERYTHING in it is the story. You have no context for anything without it, and the it's functionally the same as every other themepark mmo in the universe, except slower

Give two shits about the story. I enjoy the art, the music, the battles, and hanging out with my friends while doing cool shit in game.

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

Skilletor said:
Nah, if I could have hopped on with my friends doing the new shit immediately I would have played. Now I have to hop on with my friends doing the new shit and have nobody to do the old shit with.

So it's like when your friends were doing the old stuff while you were doing...

I'm saying give me a 50, all I'm saying is you shouldn't gate the new stuff behind old stuff people are not doing anymore which a new or returning player needs to do advance.

People are doing old content though but I guess if you spend more time fuming than playing you wouldn't notice.

Skilletor · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
So it's like when your friends were doing the old stuff while you were doing...

Organizing a wedding.

They helped me do a lot of the old stuff, actually, when I did have time to play. I have time to play now, but since I can't play with my friends, I won't be.

You're an ass.

Menome · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
Why do they care about rushing to Ishgard and ignoring a good 2 years of content that is still worth running through?

My personal situation is that I would like to play as an Astrologian. I don't however want to have to go through 50 hours of content to become one, when I would like to have experienced those hours of gameplay as an Astrologian.

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

Skilletor said:
Organizing a wedding.

They helped me do a lot of the old stuff, actually, when I did have time to play. I have time to play now, but since I can't play with my friends, I won't be.

You're an ass.

Ask them to come back to help you on like the handful of Trials you need a real group for? I don't see why friends in expansion areas suddenly are barred from helping you.

PepperedHam · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
So it's like when your friends were doing the old stuff while you were doing...

Probably playing other games?

I can't speak for him but I know I hit 50 awhile ago and took a little break. Haven't been paying much attention, decide I will finally get back in after Heavensward launches and then I find out I'll have quite a bit to do before I could play the expansion so I decided to play ESO instead.

We get that the story is emphasized in this game more than anything else but as an MMO player I have grown accustomed to stuff like WoW just needing you to hit cap before entering an expansions content.

I'll get around to it all eventually but for those level 50 players returning for the expansion, it's okay to feel a bit bummed.

Soulflarz · Jun 24, 2015

This is the same as saying 'screw someone making me learn the game by playing levels in order, I want to do the hard stuff because its newer!'

It'd be a disaster for all of us who arent new, and you have plenty of interesting content on your way to Heavensward.
It might hurt sales, but it's not a bad idea.

Thulius · Jun 24, 2015

In the context of someone that leveled to 50 in ARR and quit before a lot of the newer story content got added, yeah I get it and it kinda sucks. Some of those cutscenes are long and there are a whole lot of them. There's very little motivation to do any of the post-50 story stuff if you're not interested in the endgame grind and with heavensward out none of the rewards for that content (aside from the exp) are worthwhile at all.

But in the context of a new player, or someone who never even hit the level cap in ARR? Like... it's all new content to them, why do they care that it's not the newest new content? What a bizarre mindset.

The new classes being locked behind the expansion content and having a level 50 requirement just to unlock is insane though, such a pointless gate. Let people with 50s start at 30 as it is now and let new players unlock them at level 1. It's baffling.

skLaFarebear · Jun 24, 2015

I think you have a point about being frustrated with the game's decision to make you play throughout the whole RR base game to get to the expansion, but the reason they do make you do that is so that you're familiar with the game's mechanics enough so that when you do dungeons that late in the game, you're not completely lost on how things work and dragging down your party.

I think the anger is kind of misguided towards you having to play the whole game, and instead on the forced dungeons the game makes you go through to get through the story. There's absolutely no way to play through the game SP, and there's a ton of dungeons to run even before you hit 50 and its probably my only major complaint with the game. I do know its an MMO, but I would love to see an option just to skip dungeons or at least be able to do them SP or with AI for the people who don't like running dungeons with other people or don't like sitting through those long queues.

As far as I know though, exp gains have increased for the base game so you don't have to grind fates or anything just to keep up with the story. And the story itself is actually pretty good.

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

PepperedHam said:
Probably playing other games?

I can't speak for him but I know I hit 50 awhile ago and took a little break. Haven't been paying much attention, decide I will finally get back in after Heavensward launches and then I find out I'll have quite a bit to do before I could play the expansion so I decided to play ESO instead.

We get that the story is emphasized in this game more than anything else but as an MMO player I have grown accustomed to stuff like WoW just needing you to hit cap before entering an expansions content.

I'll get around to it all eventually but for those level 50 players returning for the expansion, it's okay to feel a bit bummed.

Depending on how much of the 50 main story you're behind on, I can't see it taking more than a week.

PepperedHam · Jun 24, 2015

Soulflarz said:
This is the same as saying 'screw someone making me learn the game by playing levels in order, I want to do the hard stuff because its newer!'

It'd be a disaster for all of us who arent new, and you have plenty of interesting content on your way to Heavensward.
It might hurt sales, but it's not a bad idea.

For many I don't think it's a matter of just letting new people skip to 50, as much as it is letting level 50 be the entry point into Heavensward for returning players.

People taking long breaks return to MMOs for expansions all of the time and they usually just have to hit cap or brush up on some old stuff. In this case though if they haven't played for months they have a little ways to go.

CHC · Jun 24, 2015

Azzurri said:
Ok,how about people who don't keep up, or what about a completely new player who doesn't follow the game?

But... wouldn't it not be old to them? I know it's probably not the busiest content at this stage but it's still going to be fresh and enjoyable for them. Plus, MMO expansions are clasically there to cater to existing players and offer additional, high level content.

WoW has, however, done pretty much exactly what you're describing in differing forms since Wrath of the Lich King. They introduce things like much faster leveling and 5-mans that offer better gear than some raids in order to get players "up to speed."

This is a double edged sword, however, since it instantly and irrevocably kills any older content entirely in order to centralize the player base around the new stuff. Good luck finding a group for Dire Maul or Maraudon these days.... (sorry if you don't get that WoW reference, they are old 5 man dungeons that nobody runs anymore because you level past them so quickly and other stuff gives you better loot).

Zomba13 · Jun 24, 2015

On the one hand I understand this. People see new stuff and think "oooh ooh ooh! Shiny! I want THAT!" instead of playing the stuff that's already there, even if it's new to them as they've never played the game before they still want to go right into new things because it's new and not old.

But really, I kinda prefer it this way at least in an MMO because that means that at the start of this expansion players will already know how to play their class, the basic mechanics and all that and generally be better going forward which means that the developers can start adding cooler, more complex mechanics from the get go instead of it being base game (easy)/base game end game(variable)/Expansion (easy)/Expansion end game (variable). Plus going through the quests might not be the fastest way to level but you can get from 1-50 doing them (and then 50-60 (almost at least) and you're forced to at least learn how to play with other people with the mandatory dungeons and trials.

I played WoW and thought it was alright and enjoyed playing with a friend. I quested to cap and didn't really do any dungeons or group content and then by end game I was unsure of my skill and what to even do in a dungeon besides just dps a guy. Like I wouldn't try tanking or healing and I stayed away from raids and all that. With something like FFXIV that forces you via the story (needed for endgame and expansion) you learn that stuff by being forced form a low level to work with at least 3 other players.

I'd much rather play with a group of people who have done some group content than a bunch of people who haven't and then having to explain every little thing to them at level 50.

IISANDERII · Jun 24, 2015

Is there an option to pay to bypass stuff and get to the expansion?

Ken · Jun 24, 2015

CHC said:
This is a double edged sword, however, since it pretty much kills any older content entirely in order to centralize the player base around the new stuff. Good luck finding a group for Dire Maul or Maraudon these days.... (sorry if you don't get that WoW reference, they are old 5 man dungeons that nobody runs anymore because you level past them so quickly and other stuff gives you better loot).

FFXIV has incentives for players to return to old story missions and trials in roulettes that give bonus XP. I mean, on the first day of early access I played through a launch story mission via roulette with a couple people there as their first time (Castrum).

Soulflarz · Jun 24, 2015

IISANDERII said:
Is there an option to pay to bypass stuff and get to the expansion?

No, that defeats the entire purpose of them intentionally locking you out from doing it until you understand your class and have caught up.

FFXIV isnt just MMO gameplay. It has an FF story to go with it, and I think people tend to forget that or downright ignore it because it's an MMO.

Skilletor · Jun 24, 2015

Ken said:
Ask them to come back to help you on like the handful of Trials you need a real group for? I don't see why friends in expansion areas suddenly are barred from helping you.

They aren't, but they're also players that have done everything in the main scenario and are excited to have new content and jobs to level, also since the level cap is raised, they're going to be getting all of the old jobs leveled. I wouldn't want to inconvenience them when they're putting in time for something they've been waiting a long time to be able to do.

They would help, no doubt, but I'd rather let them enjoy doing new stuff they paid for over helping me do old stuff when they're playing.

I'll get to it eventually, especially since I'm reading you get high level gear from scenario quests now, but instead of right now (was going to buy it today after work), it'll be in a couple months.

Perfect Blue · Jun 24, 2015

This is the reason why I didn't do the Dark Souls DLC. Didn't feel like playing the game again just to unlock it.

alstein · Jun 24, 2015

IISANDERII said:
Is there an option to pay to bypass stuff and get to the expansion?

Pay someone to do it for you... Against the TOS but in general unlikely to be found out unless you're stupid about it.

ephemeral garbage · Jun 24, 2015

It's actually been really nice for me as a healer (talking about FFXIV Heavensward specifically) because everyone in the new dungeons actually knows how to play their jobs. Every Dark Knight tank I've had has been on the ball.

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