• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

AmethystEnd

Member
Yeah I'm not gonna try to match your post number for number or anything. I checked out the N5 list at jlptstudy, for example, and I know them all, so I would likely burn through those in the first day.

And yes, "keeping everything together" is part of the reason why I'm trying to find a single source for the kanji lists. I feel like it would be a huge hindrance to be juggling multiple sites and/or books while I'm trying to be efficient.
 
U

urfe

Member
I'm an expert said:
You guys are crazy.

I should have bought white board stock.
Click to expand...

I had issues with you in the past, but I am genuinely impressed and you have my respect.

---

I just watched Attack of the Clones in Japanese. Harder than I thought it would be. Seeing it in a different language also really highlights how shit it is.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
If you guys want 90% of the JLPT Kanji along with common vocabulary words (6000+). Then just pay for Wanikani for a few months and use that as your resource. You don't actually have to use the SRS.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Why would anyone have issues with me. =/

It's an internet thing.. in real life everyone loves me. Online it's hard to have this personality. Calling out people for being dumb or poor or alts is much easier offline.

Ahem.

No FUCKING clue what srs or gatorcrab is lol
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
I'm already paying for it so whatever and it's not a thousand quid a month or anything. And lol, I don't get any emails sent to me, stop being a douche.

Here is the percentage of kanji it covers per each WK level compared to each JLPT level.

uUzAetL.jpg


So that takes you up to 80% of all the JLPT N1 Kanji and 100% of all of other levels. If you introduced a level a day, after two months you'd have worked through nearly all the N1. You want structure in one place? There's a bit of structure.
 
A

AmethystEnd

Member
Porcile said:
I'm already paying for it so whatever and it's not a thousand quid a month or anything. And lol, I don't get any emails sent to me, stop being a douche.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you're being aggressive; I insulted the site, not you.

I checked out wanikani after I heard about it in here. I didn't like it so I never signed back in, and I got nag e-mails until I opted out.

Any way, if a person doesn't intend to use their method, I dunno how using their lists differs from using something like http://kanjicards.org/cgi-bin/list_no_member.cgi?type=2&rvar=jlpt&rlim=4
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
60.. weeks?


Ah I see you're saying follow their program (that's what that is right, a study schedule?) but accelerate it to a level a day to up the kanji amount to be more in line with my schedule. Sure.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
AmethystEnd said:
I'm not sure why you're being aggressive; I insulted the site, not you.

I checked out wanikani after I heard about it in here. I didn't like it so I never signed back in, and I got nag e-mails until I opted out.

Any way, if a person doesn't intend to use their method, I dunno how using their lists differs from using something like http://kanjicards.org/cgi-bin/list_no_member.cgi?type=2&rvar=jlpt&rlim=4
Click to expand...

It was an honest suggestion and your comment didn't contribute much besides a snide remark for the sake of it. I apologise though. Sorry! :)

You could use whatever you want, the usefulness of using Wanikani in this case is that the levels are all there for you, and an actual sense of progression is also nice.

I'm an expert said:
60.. weeks?


Ah I see you're saying follow their program (that's what that is right, a study schedule?) but accelerate it to a level a day to up the kanji amount to be more in line with my schedule. Sure.
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
S

Stuart444

Member
I'm an expert said:
60.. weeks?
Click to expand...

No.

1 level = 8 days (min, more if you fuck up and don't do the reviews as soon as possible).

SRS = Spaced Repetition System and works by reviewing things you've learned (through their lessons) just before you're 'due' to forget them more or less. You remember things, the SRS moves forward one step. Once it's moved forward enough and you learn 90% of the Kanji for that level, you level up.

Simplied version of it.

And since I've just seen your edit, yeah you could take all the stuff from there and use it offsite to be in line with your schedule. If you don't need their SRS/Level system, it's easy enough to do that.

Hell I'm sure some people sign up for a month, take down everything and put it into an Anki flashcard deck and then never use the site again.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Oh I see it's an entire method and everything. I don't know, spending money on stuff like that is weird to me. Same with ajatt. Why I hated that the guy when he monetized what we did. What's there to really sell? I guess it's the fact that most people won't organize all the resources they need and want someone to do it for them.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
Here, this is your typical single Wanikani level content, excluding the radicals. All the vocab uses the kanji you learn in that level and prior levels before that. After 60 levels you cover about 6000 vocab words.

qX2XtPR.jpg


If you're going to do the 3-4 month method, then the less things you have to organise yourself, the more time you can dedicate to learning. The fact that you would know exactly how much ground you're covering per day is also helpful. Unlike a lot of these old language websites, it also doesn't look like poop. Yeah you could do it all yourself it for free. I'm not trying to hard sell it to anyone, but if you want a resource where everything is in place for you, then there you go. If not, you can use something else. It's just one resource of many.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Sounds cool to me. No reason not to take advantage of modern tools.
 
S

stump sock

Member
for people using WK, I highly recommend getting this script

https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/9867-wanikani-override

since you get punished pretty heavily for wrong answers, you can use this to give yourself another chance after you make a typo or say "same" when it's looking for "the same" or whatever. should speed up studies quite a bit.

This one is good too: https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/4770-wanikani-review-order

adds buttons that will make the system order your reviews for you. since the levels are based on radicals and kanji, you can sort them to the front of the queue so if you can't do all your reviews you can at least make progress towards the next level
 
S

Stuart444

Member
stump sock said:
for people using WK, I highly recommend getting this script

https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/9867-wanikani-override

since you get punished pretty heavily for wrong answers, you can use this to give yourself another chance after you make a typo or say "same" when it's looking for "the same" or whatever. should speed up studies quite a bit.

This one is good too: https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/4770-wanikani-review-order

adds buttons that will make the system order your reviews for you. since the levels are based on radicals and kanji, you can sort them to the front of the queue so if you can't do all your reviews you can at least make progress towards the next level
Click to expand...

I whole heatedly recommend these as well. Been using them since they were first made. :)
 
F

flatearthpandas

Member
For the record, srs is free. There are a lot of free apps that use it. Anki, notably. It quizzes you on vocab of whatever you put into it and throws the words back at you at intervals designed to solidify your memory so you don't have to brute force but still have to remember them. If you fuck up, it treats it as a new item and you get to start over. My experience is usually 5x per item, then 1 day, 2 day, 5 day, 10 day, etc review.
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
Is it just me or does Tobira sort of do things backwards? Reading > Vocab > Reading > Vocab > Grammar points. In light of expert's post, it seems like reading should come last to connect everything.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Never used tobira but isn't the reading directly followed by the vocab list it's pulling from? Like most textbooks? In a class setting it was normal to prepare the vocab first and then tackle the reading and begin the lesson. You can of course do a quick read before beginning the vocab, but you should be going back to reread the passage once you know whatever points they're introducing. That kind of reading isn't very helpful either way since it's usually scripted nonsense. Writing this post actually made me remember there was a textbook back in the late 90s that use article excerpts as its lessons' skeletons. I can't remember the name of the book but I remember what a big deal it was for me to see books out there that weren't basic textbooks. I think that book is what propelled me into making newspaper/magazine reading such a big focus for me.

Fuck.. I remember that book..
 
J

Jintor

Member
RangerBAD said:
Is it just me or does Tobira sort of do things backwards? Reading > Vocab > Reading > Vocab > Grammar points. In light of expert's post, it seems like reading should come last to connect everything.
Click to expand...

I find it useful to see how much of a reading I can read before they introduce the grammar/vocab points. You can pick up a fair amount just by context.
 
U

urfe

Member
RangerBAD said:
Is it just me or does Tobira sort of do things backwards? Reading > Vocab > Reading > Vocab > Grammar points. In light of expert's post, it seems like reading should come last to connect everything.
Click to expand...

That order makes sense to me, because that's how one naturally reads. When I read a newspaper I don't pick out all the words and grammar points first, study them and then read the article. I read the article, try to get everything with the context, and then confirm contexts with vocab and grammar.
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
Jintor said:
I find it useful to see how much of a reading I can read before they introduce the grammar/vocab points. You can pick up a fair amount just by context.
Click to expand...

Sure, but it's really slow going. I don't think it should take me like 5 hours to read 4 pages. lol
 
T

TheSporkWithin

Member
Tobira is actually pretty excellent in regards to providing more "natural" readings, in comparison to other textbooks. Its goal is less to teach you a set list of grammar points in a chapter, but rather to teach you how to read native material and reach a little beyond your current grammatical knowledge to gain understanding of more difficult concepts, while still providing you with grammar and word definitions to support the material it presents you with.

The vocab and grammar lists for each chapter are sorted by appearance in the text. You can use it as a glossary, going through the reading and checking the vocab list when you hit a word that you don't know or a grammar construct that you just simply can't suss out the meaning of.

The way that I used it was that I would read through the text, doing my best to guess the meanings of new grammar structures and words, and referring to the grammar and vocabulary lists for the chapter if I got really confused by something. Afterwards I'd read through the grammar section more closely, and reread the main passage, which helped to reinforce everything.

To give a bad analogy, think about it like learning how to roller skate: Genki teaches Japanese by holding your hand and pulling you along, never allowing you to falter or leave its side. Tobira teaches Japanese by standing in front of you and holding its hand out for you to grab if you really need it, but making sure that it's not supporting you unless you're about to fall down. Transitioning from having your hand held to skating on your own is scary, but it's also necessary if you ever want to really learn.
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
TheSporkWithin said:
Tobira is actually pretty excellent in regards to providing more "natural" readings, in comparison to other textbooks. Its goal is less to teach you a set list of grammar points in a chapter, but rather to teach you how to read native material and reach a little beyond your current grammatical knowledge to gain understanding of more difficult concepts, while still providing you with grammar and word definitions to support the material it presents you with.

The vocab and grammar lists for each chapter are sorted by appearance in the text. You can use it as a glossary, going through the reading and checking the vocab list when you hit a word that you don't know or a grammar construct that you just simply can't suss out the meaning of.

The way that I used it was that I would read through the text, doing my best to guess the meanings of new grammar structures and words, and referring to the grammar and vocabulary lists for the chapter if I got really confused by something. Afterwards I'd read through the grammar section more closely, and reread the main passage, which helped to reinforce everything.

To give a bad analogy, think about it like learning how to roller skate: Genki teaches Japanese by holding your hand and pulling you along, never allowing you to falter or leave its side. Tobira teaches Japanese by standing in front of you and holding its hand out for you to grab if you really need it, but making sure that it's not supporting you unless you're about to fall down. Transitioning from having your hand held to skating on your own is scary, but it's also necessary if you ever want to really learn.
Click to expand...

I'm not discouraged or anything. I just thought it might be taking me longer than it should or something. I'm just on the second chapter.
 
T

TheSporkWithin

Member
RangerBAD said:
I'm not discouraged or anything. I just thought it might be taking me longer than it should or something. I'm just on the second chapter.
Click to expand...

You may be spending too long scratching your head at something before flipping to the grammar or vocab section, or you may be working yourself up over not understanding everything perfectly. You really have to get used to just reading and trying to piece together what you can. This is just a very jarring transition for people who have only learned from Genki or Minna No Nihongo up to that point. You'll be much stronger for overcoming it though.

If it's the actual explanations of grammar points that are bothering you, you may want to supplement Tobira with something that gives more lengthy and exhaustive grammar explanations like the ones you get in Genki. Your best bet there are the Basic and Intermediate Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar, though www.imabi.net might also be of some use.

EDIT: I'm assuming that your post above was hyperbole. It should take at most 30-50 minutes to get through the main reading the first time. If it's taking longer than that, you're probably stressing things way too much.
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
TheSporkWithin said:
You may be spending too long scratching your head at something before flipping to the grammar or vocab section, or you may be working yourself up over not understanding everything perfectly. You really have to get used to just reading and trying to piece together what you can. This is just a very jarring transition for people who have only learned from Genki or Minna No Nihongo up to that point. You'll be much stronger for overcoming it though.

If it's the actual explanations of grammar points that are bothering you, you may want to supplement Tobira with something that gives more lengthy and exhaustive grammar explanations like the ones you get in Genki. Your best bet there are the Basic and Intermediate Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar, though www.imabi.net might also be of some use.

EDIT: I'm assuming that your post above was hyperbole. It should take at most 30-50 minutes to get through the main reading the first time. If it's taking longer than that, you're probably stressing things way too much.
Click to expand...

It's probably more that I'm following the order and only looking up words via an internet dictionary. lol So I'm looking up stuff with no reading and having to look up the kanji by radical. No, I had to stop like in the middle tonight because I couldn't finish it. It's hard to explain my setup and being disabled makes it extra slow because of said setup. The grammar book takes me a while to go through too, but that because I suck at coming up with appropriate answer since a lot of it was fill in the blank. And then I look in the back a lot. Heh.

It wasn't 5 hours, really. Because there were distractions and stuff. And I am probably trying too hard to understand the first time around.
 
T

tiijj

Member
Porcile said:
Here, this is your typical single Wanikani level content, excluding the radicals. All the vocab uses the kanji you learn in that level and prior levels before that. After 60 levels you cover about 6000 vocab words.

If you're going to do the 3-4 month method, then the less things you have to organise yourself, the more time you can dedicate to learning. The fact that you would know exactly how much ground you're covering per day is also helpful. Unlike a lot of these old language websites, it also doesn't look like poop. Yeah you could do it all yourself it for free. I'm not trying to hard sell it to anyone, but if you want a resource where everything is in place for you, then there you go. If not, you can use something else. It's just one resource of many.
Click to expand...

Can you change the colour?
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Like I did with my other post, I've been doing slight research into how the scene has changed for listening. My wife and I do the obvious to keep up with our shows/programs, but I wanted to see what else was out there. There are without a doubt tons of resources now, from youtube, to the official websites, to all of the bootleg drama fansub sites. It was really tough for me to have enough listening content back then for hours of study a day. Now? It's infinite. You could live in an eternal foreign language loop thanks to torrents and streaming.

It kind of makes me want to cry lol. We used to trade these insanely poor quality vhs and dvd copies of j-tv. We only had one channel available on tv back then that played a bit of nhk. Mindblowing. I'll never forget when I first got to see GTO in 98 or 99. Changed my life.

How many of you guys are taking advantage of this media paradise in your studies? (not anime)
 
S

stump sock

Member
I'm an expert said:
How many of you guys are taking advantage of this media paradise in your studies? (not anime)
Click to expand...

it's fantastic. when I studied german, the biggest issue I had was finding practical listening examples. I ran out of movies pretty quick. I would have started on Japanese years ago if I had the access to media that I do now. back then it was buying bootleg dvds from Hong Kong to get my Japanese movie fix. but with youtube and podcasts and everything there are so many things out there to hear people speak natural Japanese (and not affected tv speech) that it's wonderful.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
I use a website called Yes Japan which has 500+ Japanese language videos, the best ones of which are done in kind of a panel show-ish formula mostly spoken in Japanese with George Trombley (who is a professional interpreter, and an outstanding Japanese speaker) and native speakers. It's all amateur shot but they are really enjoyable to watch.

But yeah, you could go online and within five seconds find some videos in Japanese. Listening practice really isn't a problem these days I'd say.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Porcile said:
I use a website called Yes Japan which has 500+ Japanese language videos, the best ones of which are done in kind of a panel show-ish formula mostly spoken in Japanese with George Trombley (who is a professional interpreter, and an outstanding Japanese speaker) and native speakers. It's all amateur shot but they are really enjoyable to watch.

But yeah, you could go online and within five seconds find some videos in Japanese. Listening practice really isn't a problem these days I'd say.
Click to expand...

mmmmm... indeed. george. about all I can say about that lol.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
I'm an expert said:
mmmmm... indeed. george. about all I can say about that lol.
Click to expand...

Haha. I assume you know him then, or have seen his videos? His site was one of the first of its kind, so I guess it kind of catered to a certain demographic and still does. I still like his videos, and George is a cool and very generous guy.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Porcile said:
Haha. I assume you know him then, or have seen his videos? His site was one of the first of its kind, so I guess it kind of catered to a certain demographic and still does. I still like his videos, and George is a cool and very generous guy.
Click to expand...

George is George. For sure. He has been around since the beginning and for that reason he has my utmost respect. About all I can say. I just never thought someone here would use his site.

Anyway, I just realized how outdated and terrible the op is in general. I don't know anything about the op but it has 'written by an alt' oozing from it lol. Apparently he's still semi-active on gaf, wonder if he ever checks in.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
In my less informed days, his book was the first one that popped up on Amazon, so I just went to his site first. I know he used to charge quite a lot but you can watch all his videos for free now, which is all you'd want to his site for now tbh. If someone were using your study regime, they'd be the ones you burned through in the first week, and then moved onto to something more authentic.

From my 2006 lurker days I definitely remember RevenantKioku being an ALT along with a bunch of other old-school GAF guys like Sprsk and Shouta. Haven't seen them in this thread since as long as I've been using it, but Shouta still posts in the ALT thread.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Blackace was another I think. I wasn't as into offtopic/community back in those days. I actually don't remember how I even found these threads. Or why I stayed. Probably because I missed the old lifestyle. I wouldn't mind being a young, aimless student again sometimes.
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
Wait, do you just mean the covers of his books? The actual books themselves don't have any images in them at all. Obviously, the book covers are marketed towards a younger audience at a total beginner level, but the grammar content actually covers the exact same ground as Genki and Minna no Nihongo up to a certain point (around the end N4/beginning of N3).

Or do mean something else? There really isn't anything on his site or videos which is loli or some weird creepy anime stuff like that. The site looks like shit, and the older videos are cheesy and amateur but there's some value in them.

Seriously, if you wanted someone to teach you Japanese in the traditional classroom way, then he'd be a great teacher. Check out some of his Japanese Daily videos on Youtube, they're good viewing (for people at a certain skill level who want to learn in a slower paced way), and the Eigo Egg series is quite good because it's geared around Japanese people learning English, so the videos are entirely in Japanese explaining English concepts.
 
R

Resilient

Member
I didn't actually check the vids, I just Googled "Yes Japan", saw the website homepage and stopped looking lol :|

expert, it's pretty good, and like most things shame on me for not utilising it properly before... there is a lot of stuff out there, I'm probably going to keep using NHK Easy for a few more weeks then move on to 毎日新聞, then on to legit NHK.

I'm shying away from using anything that has English in it because it's annoying having the English interpretation, it's too distracting and I'm trying to make the brain switch from E>J J>E to just J>J. So probs gonna have a bit of a geeze for anything decent TV wise that isn't subbed, I'll do that next weekend. I'm trying to watch anything that deals with political or economic topics, that I'm actually interested int.

I still use Crunchyroll daily because the sub support is just great, I can watch at least 8-12 episodes lol I don't actually do this last bit I'm joking I swear.

i dunno, there would have been something neat about learning Japanese all those years ago, trading your VHS tapes as if they were a precious commodity.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
You can watch dramas. I swear by dramas. No, they're not actual natural jgo, but they teach more than listening, they teach culture. It's a very small peek into what the J consider entertaining in certain situations. I love the real world dramas because they're so outrageous but in a very down to earth kind of way. It became harder and harder to keep up with them as I got older, but I still stay somewhat current. Some of the actors/actresses I feel like I grew up with since we're about the same age. It's nice to see pretty much all of them still working. I also had the chance to meet a few of my celeb favorites over the years so those are nice memories.

From 2000 to like 2006 I'm a jdrama encyclopedia.

Dramas were a huge part of my listening practice.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
I'm an expert said:
You can watch dramas. I swear by dramas. No, they're not actual natural jgo, but they teach more than listening, they teach culture. It's a very small peek into what the J consider entertaining in certain situations. I love the real world dramas because they're so outrageous but in a very down to earth kind of way. It became harder and harder to keep up with them as I got older, but I still stay somewhat current. Some of the actors/actresses I feel like I grew up with since we're about the same age. It's nice to see pretty much all of them still working. I also had the chance to meet a few of my celeb favorites over the years so those are nice memories.

From 2000 to like 2006 I'm a jdrama encyclopedia.

Dramas were a huge part of my listening practice.
Click to expand...

Same for me, but more like from 2003 ~ 2007 (although I did also check out a lot of older ultra-popular stuff like Long Vacation and Ikebukuro West Gate Park, which is probably my favorite Jdrama series).
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
IWGP, as I'm sure you know, is something of a darling in the early drama/fansub community, along with Stand Up. Those kind of shows really capture a special time in Japan since those ensembles will never be that young. Iwgp meant a lot to me too since I lived in Ikebuke. Really special shows. 05 was really the golden age. Nobuta, hanayori, engine, attack1, densha, 1litre..

I mean..I got teary just thinking about. That was more than a decade ago. Absolute monster year for johnny's and oguri.

Such a different time, yet when I turn on the tv now all those guys still there lol. 5->9 blitz is insane.

Actually, here's my listening guide: watch every 2005 jdrama. Seriously. It's a time capsule of the best jdrama has to offer.

I haven't watched those shows probably in that long.. at least a decade. Hanayori I'd watch reruns every once in a while with the sequel. I should binge 05 myself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Original Ys II Now Available on Switch in the West; Features English Menus, Japanese Main Game
News
1
261
Power Pro replied
Bayonetta Origins Director Wants To Expand The Game Into A New Series
Opinion Game Dev
11
1K
cireza replied
Long live Tango Gameworks! 'Appreciation Thread'
2
63
3K
Hudo replied
How do you guys feel about the trend of removing japanese songs from games?
40
2K
FullMetalx117 replied
Hideki Kamiya thinks Japan should be proud of ‘JRPG’ and wants to use ‘J-Action’
News 2
93
5K
Klosshufvud replied
Top Bottom