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I'm an expert · Dec 13, 2015

Pinewood said:
Can anyone suggest a good way for memorizing kanji? Just keep revising them along with the meaning?

Also any suggestions on some kinds of easy children books to read for practice?

We are like 3/4 through with Minna no Nihongo in class.

Practicing reading and drilling kanji are what school children in Japan would do. So you can too. The trick is they see kanji everywhere, but you can too. If you put the effort in.

Here, this is a special reading version but just the normal series is fine:
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4083140585/

Resilient · Dec 13, 2015

Go to sleep, don't get new method when wake up.

Oh well, time to do experts crappy bullshit now.

Haha you guys spent nearly 2 hours trying to figure out the meaning behind his posts only for it to be like "lol nah that's not what I meant" ??? then tell us!!

I'm an expert · Dec 13, 2015

Cant hear you over my 7 figure net worth.

Thanks whiteboard method!

RangerBAD · Dec 13, 2015

I'm an expert said:
Cant hear you over my 7 figure net worth.

Thanks whiteboard method!

You're a special snowflake.

Resilient · Dec 13, 2015

Yes, the rich kind

Porcile · Dec 13, 2015

I bought these white board pens and the damn things don't want to rub off. Fuck you whiteboard method. The Staedtler Lumocolor whiteboard pens have some bad quality control, especially the red ones. Don't buy them unless they are the only ones you can find. Unfortunately, I no longer work at the university where I could have helped myself to an endless supply of pens.

It's been a couple weeks so I might have to write up some thoughts about this whole thing at some point.

Resilient · Dec 13, 2015

i use Pilot Wyteboard Marker Board Master S Extra Fine

marimorimo · Dec 13, 2015

I found the file vs. diamond cutter analagy apt for my position so I'll be referencing it again. There isn't any diamond cutter, because there aren't any shortcuts to language learning. Sure, the 3-month method looks like a shortcut at first, and if someone does it diligently I'm sure they'll get something of value. Study is study. But my question is: how does brute forcing translate to real world usage? "I'm an expert" did mention that his guide is primarily meant for Japanese consumption, and for that, it would probably work to an extent.

But I don't consider that as being fluent. Will a person be able to read, write, and speak N2 level Japanese after 3 months? There may be rare exceptions, but I seriously doubt it. Consumption is easy. Reading is the first thing that a language learner will pick up, very early in their studies. Listening is the next easiest thing. You just need base vocabulary and an attentive ear. But how about speaking and writing? These are arguably the most important aspects of language. They're also the hardest to master as there's no escaping the requirement of getting "down and dirty" with the language. I can't take a supposedly "fluent" speaker seriously if they can't hold a conversation using natural language.

Obviously "I'm an expert" and I will never see eye-to-eye on the best method of learning and that's fine. My learning philosophy is basically the anti-thesis of the speed learning method. I know about wishing to learn faster. I've been there. I've been desperate enough to do grammar and kanji study marathons. And when I eventually reached a level where I could use Japanese and get paid for it, and then looked back, I wished I didn't hurry. I was cramming myself with all this information that had a hard time sticking to my brain no matter how I tried. It didn't stick well because 1) information overload 2) it's just not fun at all despite deluding myself that I loved studying 3) all these grammar points and vocabulary held little meaning for me. The stuff that stuck well were words and grammatical concepts that I had encountered before in things I genuinely loved: the "fun" stuff. Anime and manga seem to have a poor reputation for being "useless" in this forum when that is far from the case. For example, Resilient's trouble with the word 「まかない」 wouldn't have happened at all if he had read any manga in Japanese. 「負けない」is a word that pops up in 99.9% of anime/manga and he would have instantly recognized it.

I don't find the brute force method revolutionary since it's hardly different from what millions of Japanese students learning English are and have been doing for the past few decades. They go to cram school for years and memorize tons of grammar and vocabulary. They do this because at the entrance exams, they will be required to translate college-level English to Japanese. People pass, but why is it that Japan is filled to the brim with atrocious English signages and it's hard to find someone who speaks good English?

I believe it's because plain memorizing is mostly meaningless. People can concentrate only for about an hour at a time (maybe less). Practically speaking, there's only so much the brain can handle. For kanji and vocab, brute memorizing works. But for grammar, it's a lot trickier even with sample sentences. Even just taking the example べき in the guide: "if you wanted to tell someone that they should do something, what pops in your head? Beki." Yes, べき means someone should do something but if I were to tell my friend that she should eat her vegetables, should I say 「野菜を食べるべきです。」? Sure, in English that translates to "(You) should eat vegetables," but a sentence with べき in it is the last thing that a Japanese native would say. They would say 「野菜を食べた方がいいよ」　or maybe even 「野菜は体にいいよ」 instead. Because of cultural differences, you can't speak Japanese the way you would in your native language. Japanese is filled with these exceptions. They're not things one can learn from a grammar book. They require experience, which take time.

So to put it bluntly, I don't find value in hard-core, speed studying methods. Becoming proficient in a language will take time either way. In fact, I wish I had taken more time in solidifying my knowledge of grammar basics. I know this will rile up people in this forum but that is my opinion. Everyone is free to use the method that works best for them.

(All this talk about studying inspired me to brush up on my rusty grammar and pick up a Japanese book!)

Deleted member 17706 · Dec 13, 2015

marimorimo said:
But I don't consider that as being fluent. Will a person be able to read, write, and speak N2 level Japanese after 3 months? There may be rare exceptions, but I seriously doubt it.

Well, there is no writing or speaking portion to the JLPT!

marimorimo said:
but a sentence with べき in it is the last thing that a Japanese native would say. They would say 「野菜を食べた方がいいよ」　or maybe even 「野菜は体にいいよ」 instead. Because of cultural differences, you can't speak Japanese the way you would in your native language. Japanese is filled with these exceptions.

Ehh... I wouldn't speak so definitively about what a native speaker would or wouldn't say. There are plenty of situations where べき would be appropriate when trying to convey that sentiment. It just depends on the context.

marimorimo said:
Because of cultural differences, you can't speak Japanese the way you would in your native language. Japanese is filled with these exceptions. They're not things one can learn from a grammar book. They require experience, which take time.

I don't believe Expert was recommending cramming exclusively with a grammar book, though. Did you miss this post?

Porcile · Dec 13, 2015

Besides speaking, which we know isn't covered in the guide. I'm curious as to how exactly would you not be able to pass N2 or N1 if you were: a) actively studying and using grammar from that level every day b) covering the complete 2200 kanji, c) using real world reading and listening materials which are above and beyond the skill level of a multiple choice exam?

Even though I use expert's method, or a variation of it, i'm not its biggest advocate but what you're saying doesn't make much sense to me.

Resilient · Dec 13, 2015

I wrote this long ass post but my phone died and I lost it

For the record, I know what 負けない means, I just didn't parse it when I heard it. When I thought about it a day alter it processed for me.

I spent a lot of this year catching up on One Piece. I watched 1 - 705 in the span of about 4 months. I was sacrificing sleep for it (I work) but I wanted to catch up quickly. In that time I studied at my leisurely pace, working through a text book, doing maybe an hour or 2 per day, sometimes nothing. One tutoring lesson a week with that too. And after all that (and 2 seasons of Kuroko, great show), I still can't pick up まけない on first pass. That's sad!

I figured that if I had already sacrificed sleep to watch a cartoon, surely I could do it for proper study. So that's why I started this. And the gains have been great so far. I'm at nearly 500-550 Kanji in 17 days that I can read when I see generally, and I've got N4 grammar and when to use it on lock (it helps I had studied it before). I can put the N3 I've learned so far into practice with my tutor, and that also is helping with my reading. It's actually working and I'm seeing the rewards already; I'd be dumb to drop it at this point.

I'm not saying it's a shortcut nor do I believe it is. 6 hours (min) for 88 days is not a shortcut. I don't expect fluency or even semi-fluent speaking ability by February. But it's a massive building block to attain that. From March 1 to July whenever I can practice my listening and speaking daily while already possessing a massive tool that majority don't have when they try to attain fluency. That's a massive amount of time to prepare for N1 which is why I'm so confident I will pass it.

It's like if two states are trading goods via paddle boat, and then they decide to build a bridge between the two over 50km. Yeah it's gonna take a long time and a lot of work to build that bridge, but once it is built, that's it. You maintain it and you drive over it with relative ease. That's the shortcut. The shortcut is built through massive commitment to an idea.

I've written this so any newbies on the fence can see why some of us are doing it. I'm not saying your study method is bad, I'm just saying it isn't for me (I already started doing that). This is for me, so I'm gonna use it, and I believe in it so I will support it where I can - for the benefit of whoever else wants to take it on.

Expert, if you get around to making a new OP, it's going to need an alternative, slower guide that will gel with others a bit better. Maybe marimorimo or Nocebo could write it, that way we have equal coverage and everything seems more approachable? That's why the thread is here really. To teach people to teach themselves.

and in a few more months I'm going to be done. Then I'm going to finish Kuroko and start FF4 and enter the weeb life.

Porcile · Dec 13, 2015

Any fellow UK'ers know where to buy Japanese magazines in London? I'll be in that neck of the woods next week. There's Japan Centre but everything in there is sold at crazy prices. Are there any smaller shops worth checking out?

Mik2121 · Dec 13, 2015

Porcile said:
Any fellow UK'ers know where to buy Japanese magazines in London? I'll be in that neck of the woods next week. There's Japan Centre but everything in there is sold at crazy prices. Are there any smaller shops worth checking out?

Depending on the magazine, and if you're cool with it, you might be able to find the digital version on services like the iBooks store for iOS stuff?

Porcile · Dec 14, 2015

Mik2121 said:
Depending on the magazine, and if you're cool with it, you might be able to find the digital version on services like the iBooks store for iOS stuff?

Oh, I forget modern technology exists sometimes. Yeah, I could do that. I'm not after anything specific though, so an actual selection I could flick through in a shop would be nice is all. I might just do that anyway in Japan Centre, and then buy the magazine digitally.

https://www.japancentre.com/en/products/321-bungei-shunjyu-monthly-magazine

£17!

I'm an expert · Dec 14, 2015

Couple things first. There's nothing to 'rile up.' Discussion is the whole point of this thread. I said before my 'method' was simply what I did. There's no science behind it, I don't endorse it or make money from it, all I can say is hey, here's how it affected me. I have said within it that it is indeed not revolutionary. If people don't want to use it, or if people like Porcile try it and hate, that's a-ok. I agree not everyone can benefit from it. Similarly, I don't think anyone else's methods are bad or wrong or anything like that.

But I can have an opinion on efficiency as well. I think the anime/whatever method is ineffecient. I've given my reasons. So if anyone thinks my method is inefficient, by all means.. just explain why. It doesn't mean anything to me, I've already done the method lol. It'd be more for the people currently trying it out.

The reason I even summarized what I did and my thoughts was because there were a lot of people in here saying they were doing high level study, but not feeling confident. So I wrote what I did. People here studying for years, even living in Japan for years, yet jlpt1 was hard for them. I passed it in 3 months. Here's how. That's all.

Not only that, I specifically said the method I was writing was for jlpt1 goals. I say right in the first post, not to mention numerous times over the years, that passing jlpt1 means jack shit. I became 'fluent' by living and working in Japan for a decade, not from 3 months of jlpt study. What I shared with people though is the unseen and unpredictable benefit of that study. The fact that from then on my brain processed jgo faster and more elegantly made it so much easier to pick up everything around me when I began my life there.

Not everyone in this thread has that goal. People like ranger and nocebo specifically said they don't care about a fluency needed for living in jland. They just want to consume their media. Hence, I wrote the parts and omitted the production pieces because I realized my audience here didn't care about that part. There's still an entire speaking/composition part of my routine, but I have no reason to write it except out of boredom.

You're acting like I promised them the world, but I didn't. I very clearly wrote out the realities of the method and what it will accomplish. Though I can say reading some of the examples mari gave, she clearly didn't read my method. With my method you would read and listen to far more practical stuff than being some manga master. If only Resilient had done nothing but read dbz he surely would have known what xxx means. I could replace dbz with any media that isn't a kids book and it would still make sense, even more sense.

Your study style again boiled down to it being 'fun' for you, which is fine. That's personal preference. I didn't prefer it, and I make no secrets about it, but I have valid reasons as to why I don't. What is a good reason to not use a non-fun method other than 'it isn't fun?'

To answer your question, no, the person will not be able to read, write, and speak jlpt2 after my method.

They will be able to absolutely fucking slaughter jlpt1. With time to spare. Then they can reevaluate what they want to do with their knowledge. But I'll tell you this, 3 months of my study, and you could read any manga or watch any anime at a level infinitely higher than if you did years of 'casual, fun' study. That is a promise. But as usual, the diet analogy. You will gain the weight back if you don't take permanent life changes away from the 3 months.

OpinionatedCyborg · Dec 14, 2015

I've been following this thread casually for awhile because it interests me as a language learner. I have no plans to learn Japanese in the near future, so take the following with a grain of salt.

I Am Expert -- People can criticize your method's efficiency because it relies on a lot of repetition of things you already understand (or think you understand). Any time spent going over something you already know is an inefficiency.

It has other downsides as well. It's painful and exhausting, which increases the risk of burnout. It crams a lot of information into a small time period, giving the learner less time for the language to sink in. The short time span and rigid schedule also encourage shallow learning and cheating -- whoever does your method must always remember that just doing the prescribed number of items per day does not guarantee success. Think about how many times you've heard someone say they've memorized 5000 or 6000 words, yet they can't speak or write worth shit. Do the prescribed number of words and grammar points but LEARN THEM. Don't be lazy.

However, for the right type of person in the right situation, your method is excellent.

A highly motivated person who has already studied Japanese for a period of time will benefit from your method. Off the top of my head, you had studied Japanese for a year before committing to this method. Res had studied it for around 18 months. Porcile... a year or so? You had already studied some fundamentals of the language. You were familiar with vocabulary, basic grammar, and the phonology. For the first week or so of this intense program, you likely spent a lot of time reviewing words, grammar, etc. that you had already covered. Due to your familiarity, the initial phase is much less exhausting, and is probably highly motivating: it feels like you're learning faster than ever before and you're suddenly able to apply everything you learned prior!

I don't think a complete newbie will do well on your program, nor will those who aren't highly motivated and disciplined. I've noticed Resilient lament not staring this method sooner, but I think he is discounting the value of his previous learning too much. A person who has already learned a couple languages to proficiency could likely start your method after a few weeks or perhaps a month of beginniner material. That said, such a person likely has his or her own unique method (which will no doubt have much in common with yours).

Anyway, l let me close by saying that I think your method overall is quite good for the right person in the right situation. It uses all aspects of the language, involves a ton of input and output, and involves the use of native materials. There are many technological resources available now that can augment your method, particularly the listening and speaking portions. Programs like audacity, workauiobook, and subs2srs, for example, are very useful in this regard. I prefer SRS to pure repetition, but there is value in pure repetition, and there certainly is value in the amount of writing practice your method requires!

If any of you are weird like me and enjoy reading about how other people learn languages, this is a good read: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/43939-independent-chinese-study-review/.

I'm an expert · Dec 14, 2015

Post of the year.

I agree with all your points. (I had experience with the language forever longer before then, correct) But I never said this was for beginners. I'm well aware of everything you said. Remember, I specifically said I'd have to write a guide for beginners if I made a new op. I wrote the guide for the disgruntled, experienced studiers.

Please participate more in the thread whenever. Discussions like these are what language study threads should be about.

Grokbu · Dec 14, 2015

Hey guys.

I'm currently looking for the book 言語学入門 これから始める人のための入門書, which is going to be used as course literature for my next semester. I am currently trying to find it for sale at stores outside of Japan (with shipping to Sweden as well), I would like to ask if any of you guys know of any place selling it? I am looking into buying it new, but I can go with used if I need to.

Here is a link to the book: http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4327401382/

Porcile · Dec 14, 2015

Yes, I am curious to see what happens when I make the step up from going over the kanji I am already familiar with to new ones I've never seen before. Already it's quite challenging, even with the ones I know, because the disconnect in my brain between reading a kanji and actually writing it is enormous. I think that will certainly be the point where I find out for real whether I can make this method work.

I don't hate it by the way, I just dunno, think and have always thought its completely impractical and unreasonable for anyone who has any kind of responsibility in life or vaguely normal human traits and habits, which is going to be the vast majority. You freely admit that though, and I think we already went through this right at the start, so not really a point worth dwelling on. Certainly, if I can make it through to the other side, then it's perfectly achievable for anyone else. I'm not infallible. However, i'm lucky in so much that I can put the brakes on the things around me, not many others can afford that luxury.

All that aside, two weeks was the original "you'll give up by then" point, and I made it past that, so I guess the next one is what, a month? Let's see where we all are then.

Deleted member 17706 · Dec 14, 2015

Grokbu said:
Hey guys.

I'm currently looking for the book 言語学入門 これから始める人のための入門書, which is going to be used as course literature for my next semester. I am currently trying to find it for sale at stores outside of Japan (with shipping to Sweden as well), I would like to ask if any of you guys know of any place selling it? I am looking into buying it new, but I can go with used if I need to.

Here is a link to the book: http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4327401382/

Why not buy it from Amazon? Although it does say it will take 2 ~ 4 weeks before it ships.

Grokbu · Dec 14, 2015

Zefah said:
Why not buy it from Amazon? Although it does say it will take 2 ~ 4 weeks before it ships.

Edit: After a bit of thinking, I think I'm gonna try ordering it from there. Thanks for the help!

Resilient · Dec 14, 2015

Porcile said:
I don't hate it by the way, I just dunno, think and have always thought its completely impractical and unreasonable for anyone who has any kind of responsibility in life or vaguely normal human traits and habits, which is going to be the vast majority..

It looks like that from the outside looking in. Once you're in though it's pretty achievable. Every other aspect of my life has taken a hit except seeing my GF and even then that happens ..not as often as I would like. Last week I thought writing 200 Kanji in the morning before work was going to be pushing it. This morning I did 375 with ease (I was posting in and out of this thread lol) and I'll finish my remaining 50 tonight, then do my grammar in an hour. I already studied the next 2 days worth of grammar patterns so I just need to read the triggers off the list I wrote up last night...

basically you need to micromanage everything, which should be easy if you ever played an MMO

Porcile · Dec 14, 2015

Resilient said:
It looks like that from the outside looking in. Once you're in though it's pretty achievable. Every other aspect of my life has taken a hit except seeing my GF and even then that happens ..not as often as I would like. Last week I thought writing 200 Kanji in the morning before work was going to be pushing it. This morning I did 375 with ease (I was posting in and out of this thread lol) and I'll finish my remaining 50 tonight, then do my grammar in an hour. I already studied the next 2 days worth of grammar patterns so I just need to read the triggers off the list I wrote up last night...

basically you need to micromanage everything, which should be easy if you ever played an MMO

Are these kanji which are already familiar to you though? In many ways the numbers don't add up for me. It would take any reasonable person at least 3 minutes to be able to thoroughly absorb any unfamiliar kanji so that the next day it wouldn't be a problem remembering. Think about all the things you need to keep in mind for just a single kanji: radicals, stroke order, radical layout, English meaning, Japanese readings, associated vocabulary. Now keep all this in your head while learning another 24 (I'm actually doing 35 on average) with all the exact same things to memorise. Some are more complicated than others but at a bare minimum that's at least an hour and a half simply learning the kanji for the next day. I blazed through my first few days because the kanji were so familiar and so easy, now I get to the point where even a simpler kanji compared to others, 感 or 謝 for example, are not so easy memorise from scratch.

Now you have to do this every day for 80-90 days, as well as revision of all previous kanji, which may include ones from prior days you have forgotten, requiring you again to take the time to memorise the part you're struggling with so that you don't have to go through the same process the next day.

300 kanji more than triples to become 1000, and 1000 more than doubles to become 2200 in such a short amount of time. Even if you did the bare minimum revision for each kanji character (one vocab word) think about the long term practicality of that for a second.

I'm an expert · Dec 14, 2015

Don't worry about 100% memorizing it the first or second day, it will come with the practice, especially as you familiarize yourself with more radicals, I agree you're almost done with the honeymoon period though. Also remember if the timeline is too tough, you can stretch it to 4-5 months if you want. Doing less new kanji, say 15-20 a day or maybe taking 1-2 days off every week.

At about 6 weeks in you should basically be a master of the method. You can alter or shortcut as you see fit.

Resilient · Dec 14, 2015

Porcile said:
Are these kanji which are already familiar to you though? In many ways the numbers don't add up for me. It would take any reasonable person at least 3 minutes to be able to thoroughly absorb any unfamiliar kanji so that the next day it wouldn't be a problem remembering. Think about all the things you need to keep in mind for just a single kanji: radicals, stroke order, radical layout, English meaning, Japanese readings, associated vocabulary. Now keep all this in your head while learning another 24 (I'm actually doing 35 on average) with all the exact same things to memorise. Some are more complicated than others but at a bare minimum that's at least an hour and a half simply learning the kanji for the next day. I blazed through my first few days because the kanji were so familiar and so easy, now I get to the point where even a simpler kanji compared to others, 感 or 謝 for example, are not so easy memorise from scratch.

Now you have to do this every day for 80-90 days, as well as revision of all previous kanji, which may include ones from prior days you have forgotten, requiring you again to take the time to memorise the part you're struggling with so that you don't have to go through the same process the next day.

300 kanji more than triples to become 1000, and 1000 more than doubles to become 2200 in such a short amount of time. Even if you did the bare minimum revision for each kanji character (one vocab word) think about the long term practicality of that for a second.

im past the familiar kanji at this point but its not big deal. it might take a day or 2 to remember the harder ones but they eventually stick and thats it. reading helps, when i see them they just trigger. im not too worried about the next month, its just going to be more of what im already doing. in a month i will have finished the grammar portion so thats more time for kanji + reading. im going to start listening once im done with this cause there is no time.

ill be honest, i definitely dont spend 75 minutes on the new 25 kanji for the day. that's too much. maybe 30 minutes. dude, you're going to be seeing kanji from day 16 at least 70 more times lol. i think youll remember it eventually

I'm an expert said:
Don't worry about 100% memorizing it the first or second day, it will come with the practice, especially as you familiarize yourself with more radicals, I agree you're almost done with the honeymoon period though. Also remember if the timeline is too tough, you can stretch it to 4-5 months if you want. Doing less new kanji, say 15-20 a day or maybe taking 1-2 days off every week.

At about 6 weeks in you should basically be a master of the method. You can alter or shortcut as you see fit.

no days off, there is no point imo. stretching it out just prolongs it, ill still be writin shit loads per day, just longer.

if i stop, what am i gonna do? il probably just play halo more. halo can wait. a lot of stuff can wait. i get feelings when i think about passing N1 next year. im not the kind that gets burnt out. maybe its different for me. i become numb due to my job, every day is the same thing. so i might as well do this

I'm an expert · Dec 14, 2015

Yeah man I mean that's where I was in life too when I did it. What were the alternatives? Play games? Go out drinking with friends? All of that can be done a few months later. It's not like we're doing something unspeakably unhealthy or ridiculous. We're studying lol. There are basically two ways to better yourself in this life - physically and emotionally. This is the second one. There should be a joy in you for knowing you're accomplishing a goal you want to. A happiness of putting in effort and seeing results. The 6 hours of study a day is just the passing of time until you die one day. You could spend it a million different ways, this is just one temporary way.

That's why the 'it's not fun' argument will never persuade me as to why this is a bad method. It's plenty fun, just not fun in the 'I'm getting instant and fleeting gratification right now the way I would if I was eating a chocolate sundae.' The fun will come from the lifetime of opportunities you will have made available for yourself.

Though I should say I personally enjoyed all parts of the study. Learning new kanji. watching new shows, talking to new people. I never felt it was torture..it was just what I filled my day with rather than something else. Work, relationships, school, whatever. I'm sure plenty of people here think of those as 'torture' but still do it. Because you have to.

The trick here is do you have the maturity and discipline to treat something the way you would school or work, even though you don't have to.

Resilient · Dec 14, 2015

that's why I mentioned a few posts back the shit about marathoning TV shows. It was pointless, I'm annoyed I did it but I think it was a necessary step in the process to get where I am now. The only time I don't study is when I'm at work or sleeping. The feeling of seeing my results come to life every day is fkn good. It's addictive lol. And no I don't find it to be torture. The only hard days are when I have commitments on like basketball. Or if I need to go to gym during the week. Then it gets tight. Apart from that I still have my weekends, I just get up at 6 and finish my 12-1 then live my life

It's a discipline thing and that's part of why I'm doing it. I want to see if I can keep it up for 3 months. It's fkn funny.

This for me is way more fun than what I was doing before. At least now I'm getting proper use out of y study.

Porcile · Dec 14, 2015

I much prefer to genuinely attempt to remember something the first time, rather than spending time afterwards when I have a number of new things to juggle. An excellent point bought up by OpinionatedCyborg:

"The short time span and rigid schedule also encourage shallow learning and cheating -- whoever does your method must always remember that just doing the prescribed number of items per day does not guarantee success. Think about how many times you've heard someone say they've memorized 5000 or 6000 words, yet they can't speak or write worth shit. Do the prescribed number of words and grammar points but LEARN THEM. Don't be lazy. "

There are so many ways you can cheat yourself with this method, so I try to avoid them all where possible, and spending time learning new kanji properly, not just writing it a few times and hoping that one day i'll remember it for real. But maybe you can remember kanji like that, I only know how my brain works and how I can remember things properly, not just when I'm in autopilot mode looking at my tailored lists. For me, the only way I know I have remembered a kanji properly is when I can see everything about it in my head; the way it looks, its stroke order, its meaning, its readings are all there without any effort or need to look at a list. If you can do that, then you've learned something.

I'm an expert · Dec 14, 2015

I agree with all that. I spent an average of 3 mins on a kanji too. It's just you'll eventually get shortcuts to the LEARNING part. It'll click faster. You'll see.

This method is NOT some short term memory mind blitz. You will not lose it.

I still have those lists and board statuses in my head.

And it's really just the kanji we do this with. You dont even have to do it with the grammar since there are so few. This is really about getting those kanji in your head so your real study can begin. Remember, there are more kanji lol. These are the minimum.

RangerBAD · Dec 14, 2015

That's why I said I'm an expert is a special snowflake. Everything about him came together at that moment and it just worked for him. He had the drive, the discipline and the timing. It's not a repeatable thing. I'm not going to get philosophical, but everything happened the way it was suppose to for him.

I'm glad he shared his story and method though, and I think there are things that are highly adaptable in his method. I also want to note that I would love to be highly fluent, I'm an expert. I just don't know how realistic is when you can never live in Japan. Unless something incredible happens, it's probably impossible for me (it's not a money thing) to go/live in Japan.

Resilient · Dec 14, 2015

Porcile, totally agree. Especially the bit about knowing how your brain works. I could spend 3min per new kanji or 10 on the first day. I would still forget it the next day LOL. Unfortunately that's how I work. But by the 2nd day it's in. When I see that I'm not retaining I slow it down a bit and really try to process it. Make a story or something. Then I can jeut read my kana/English list and it pops up. Reading トップページNHKニュース instead of EASY is really good for finding kanji you've learnt and forcing yourself to call it from your head. No furigana here. It's slow but you build momentum.

Yesterday I felt like nothin was sticking and this morning when I read your post I actually felt like I fucked up. But I wrote 400 kanji this morning and probably couldn't recall...10 on the first pull. Give it a few minutes and eventually I grab it or have to look it up. So in pretty happy with that.

On the weekends I should spend more time with a new list of words I'm struggling with, then really give them some love. But the weekdays are pushing it lol.

I'll add that my job forces me to learn on the go. Since starting at this company i've been thrown to the wolves and forced to learn with v. little time, so by nature that's just how i learn now. quick and fast, no time to sit and think about it. maybe that's why i can push through it.

one more thing. i set my writing list up so that there are other kanji that i haven't learned yet in my common words. i try to link as many as i can so that by the time i get to it, i'm already familiar. a basic example but 示, i see it at least 7 times per day now but i still haven't gotten to it on my list. when i get there though, i'll learn it within the day. i don't think it's cheating...i'm just creating a lot of dots early so that when i go to connect them later they're basically a straight line lol.

Resilient · Dec 15, 2015

damn, just had a moment.

even fucked up Kanji can become easy reallly, realllllly quickly

総 was a new one for me yesterday, thought it would be a struggle. nope. read a few articles on NHK today, it popped in a few times here and there (mainly 総合 - synthesis, integration), got up to it on my list and "President" came to me straight away. feels good man.

marimorimo · Dec 15, 2015

I admit I hadn't read "I'm an expert"'s post detailing his methodology when I initially posted. I was mostly reacting to his dismissive attitude regarding the use of songs (and most of the 'fun' stuff) in language learning. Coupled with the study-till-you-drop 3 month intensive program, and claims that made me raise an eyebrow.

We may not all agree on the best method, but we're all here because we're passionate about language learning and want to help others. My criticism of "I'm an expert's" method is mostly based on its treatment of grammar as though they were bits of vocabulary that you can memorize and get done with. Add to that the shortened (3-5 months) length of time. Personally, this is the last method I would recommend to an absolute beginner. I think this would only work with people who already know Japanese anyway. In fact, this method would probably work well for me now that I'm at my current level (I don't know all N1 and N2 grammar points and jouyou kanji). But for absolute beginners, it would probably have an incredibly high drop-out rate.

A previous post mentioned how we are all probably talking about slightly different things. "I'm an expert"'s method focuses on the "consuming" aspect: reading/listening. But if the end goal of studying isn't to speak or write (i.e: communicate) why learn the language at all? A certificate is useless if you can't demonstrate competence at actual communication.

The official JLPT website says: "The JLPT places importance not only on (1) knowledge of Japanese-language vocabulary and grammar but also on the (2) ability to use the knowledge in actual communication."

The brute force memorization method would arguably have been most effective with the old tests from before 2010. I took Level 1 in 2008 (failed spectacularly) and the test required perfect memorization of similar-looking kanji, vocab, and grammar points. When they changed to the current N-Levels, I heard a rumor that they made the test more "communicative" due to the number of people passing the exam but being pretty shitty at actually communicating. I think they were right because when I took the N1, the layout of the test and questions was quite different. It was harder to fudge just by memorizing radicals or definitions. This type of test actually worked out better for me (the grammar book slacker) and I passed.

Regarding the "efficiency" argument, I consider language learning to be similar to the fable "The tortoise and the hare." The hare is the equivalent of grammar books and drills. It gets the information in your head fast. But as anybody who had taken a college language course has experienced, it' pretty poor at getting you to OUTPUT actual information. In fact, I would argue that over-studying HINDERS output. You may have all this jumble of information in your head, but if you can't output, it's next to useless. So you passed N1 and can read the newspaper, watch J-dorama unsubbed, and translate manga. Pretty impressive. But open your mouth to speak and out comes a grammatically skewed or downwright weird sentence. Or worse, you can't open your mouth at all. Congratulations, you've now been trumped by an immigrant with barely N3 qualifications but can hold a conversation.

As for the tortoise, he's not in a hurry to cram all the grammar and vocabulary in his head. In an ideal world, he wouldn't even need to touch a grammar book. But majority of us don't have ideal circumstances so he would still need to learn the "book basics," taking time to do each of them, doing mainly output (speaking and writing). Feedback is important. Even just one kanji or grammar point will do. There will be a lot of mistakes and repetition, which is fine because experience drills the grammar point or vocabulary into his head. This takes time. Because he isn't in a hurry, he can choose whatever supplementary media he wants. Songs, manga, whatever gets him to pay attention and continue. His pace his slow, so the hare will "win" the race much faster than he will. But he will eventually catch up, if he is diligent, in 2-4 years. By that time, he will be speaking the language with a near-perfect accent, and speaking and writing it in a natural way that is indistinguishable to that of a native speaker.

By that time, what had happened to the hare? There are usually two patterns: 1) he still can't speak, so he thinks he needs to pour more time into studying 2) He can speak, but still stutters. He wants to get better but his sentences don't come out as natural and refined as he wants them to be. He wishes he could go back in time and re-do everything. Sometimes, there is a 3rd pattern: perfect grammar but with an accent so poor it's unintelligible.

That's my study method/philosophy for learning any language. It's actually harder in practice than the speed method. Because the language lessons stick to the head AND can be used by the learner at will, I happen to think it is more efficient. Also, I don't recommend self-study for beginners, as feedback from a teacher or friend is important. It's easier to correct mistakes and break bad habits before they form, not when they have been fully established.

This isn't a radical new method by the way. An established, more "hard-core" method has been around for years (look up Gattegno and the Silent Way).

Resilient said:
And after all that (and 2 seasons of Kuroko, great show), I still can't pick up まけない on first pass. That's sad!

That's because you watched it with subtitles. Subtitles are a crutch and I personally haven't found much benefit using them to study. Subtitles in Japanese are the best, and as you gain more confidence, remove them altogether.

Zefah said:
Ehh... I wouldn't speak so definitively about what a native speaker would or wouldn't say. There are plenty of situations where べき would be appropriate when trying to convey that sentiment. It just depends on the context.

As always, it depends on the context but I'm serious when I say that the use of べき in conversation or business emails is limited. べき is a forceful word. Japanese people would go to great lengths not to sound forceful. While べき is a useful word that often appears in written articles or the news, it is not something you should use will-nilly. You could sound downright haughty doing it. Not what you would expect when the grammar book says it means "must or should."

Resilient · Dec 15, 2015

I must have imagined it when my native Japanese tutor commented on the dramatic improvement in my conversation skills then!

I think we established a few posts back that different methods were going to work for different people. Implying that anybody who is doing the brute force way is going to come out the other end unable to hold a conversation is...dismissive. Implying that anybody doing it legit believes that will have mastered Japanese is...missing the point of the method? Both have their benefits. And some people can learn effectively this way. I understand your post but it comes off a bit defensive when you talk about how good studying slowly is compared to this. When we were comparing the two, nobody outright said it was going to be shitty to study using anime, manga, etc. Just that it was going to get you a different result. And that is self explanatory. I can't imagine somebody from Asia using action movies to study faring too well in my workplace when it comes to conversations about how to design things.

oh, and a beginner should absolutely not start on this method. there was a poster who came in asking where to start, and i tried to ask where they wanted to be and what they wanted to do, but they're gone now...where you are at at your study, where you weant to be etc. all factor into what approach you should take with the lang IMO.

Porcile · Dec 15, 2015

Doesn't matter what the JLPT website says the test is about, the reality is that it's a multiple choice test with no output required. It is NOT a true marker of Japanese ability or communication. You do it to get the qualification and so you never have to think about doing the stupid multiple choice test again.

The method does have output. You are writing kanji with vocabulary every day, you are writing grammar points everything single day in Japanese. How is that not writing? If you apply the method correctly, you're building the toolset to speak.

We're doing it because we don't want to have to look at textbooks for the next two years, not because we think we'll become Japanese masters in three months.

marimorimo · Dec 15, 2015

Resilient said:
I must have imagined it when my native Japanese tutor commented on the dramatic improvement in my conversation skills then!

I think we established a few posts back that different methods were going to work for different people. Implying that anybody who is doing the brute force way is going to come out the other end unable to hold a conversation is...dismissive. Implying that anybody doing it legit believes that will have mastered Japanese is...missing the point of the method? Both have their benefits. And some people can learn effectively this way. I understand your post but it comes off a bit defensive when you talk about how good studying slowly is compared to this. When we were comparing the two, nobody outright said it was going to be shitty to study using anime, manga, etc. Just that it was going to get you a different result. And that is self explanatory. I can't imagine somebody from Asia using action movies to study faring too well in my workplace when it comes to conversations about how to design things.

oh, and a beginner should absolutely not start on this method. there was a poster who came in asking where to start, and i tried to ask where they wanted to be and what they wanted to do, but they're gone now...where you are at at your study, where you weant to be etc. all factor into what approach you should take with the lang IMO.

You have a teacher and you already knew Japanese. "I'm and expert"'s "learning to study" method will probably work for you and it seems it has. So good for you for finding a method that works.

However, I find it counter-intuitive that anyone going 'legit' wouldn't want to master the language.

I wrote the post because I wanted to propose an alternative. It may not have been the intention, but my impression from previous threads was that anime/manga/songs were negative and that the speed method was the "all or nothing" miracle method. A few posts back people were talking about efficiency, so I wrote about why I don't think brute forcing is efficient.

If you brute memorize all the grammar and vocab and come out being good at conversation, you are one of the few lucky ones. But in my experience, that's a rare case. If brute memorizing were indeed the most effective way, then why is it almost impossible to find a grammatically correct English sign in Tokyo? Why is it hard to find someone who speaks halfway decent English? Japanese students cram tons of grammar and vocabulary to be able to pass entrance exams (where they are expected to translate college-level English).

The patterns I wrote about are merely my observation. Since I was a language major and through my family and job there was always someone around me trying to learn one language or another, I had the opportunity to observe common occurrences. I was also referring to "book study" in general, not just the 3-month method. I didn't say that any person who blazes through the grammar wouldn't be able to speak at all. Under Pattern 2), they will be able to speak but once they start thinking about going to the "higher level" (by that I mean indistinguishable from a native speaker) they will find a roadblock in their way.

I'm not endorsing my "slow method" (I prefer to refer to it as my "philosophy") as the best method for everyone is as it is not applicable to all circumstances. But I do believe it has the highest chance of getting someone from zero to fluent.

marimorimo · Dec 15, 2015

Porcile said:
The method does have output. You are writing kanji with vocabulary every day, you are writing grammar points everything single day in Japanese. How is that not writing? If you apply the method correctly, you're building the toolset to speak.

Copying kanji, definitions, and grammar points isn't output. Writing several of your own sentences using kanji and grammar points, having them checked by a native or knowledgeable teacher, and rewriting the sentences when you make mistakes (you're bound to make mistakes) is output.

Resilient · Dec 15, 2015

My biggest problem with methods like yours is that there is. No. Method. You say all this stuff but I don't even know what it is. The hare goes slowly. The hare takes their time. What are they doing in 2-4 years? Reading the same book? Writing a sentence or kanji a day? Huh? It just seems lazy. If there was a method maybe I could understand it but it's just...what is it? Watch stuff? Do a bit a day of a textbook?

Expert is working on a new thread. If your philosophy works and you believe it can take you to fluency, then if you have the time (you said you're working), please share it and we can add it to the new OP. I asked before but you must have missed it which is fine. A lot has happened the last few pages lol.

The purpose of thread is to help people. There is no wrong or right way. There are ways that will get you to your goal. That's all that matters. We need to make the thread more accomodating to new comers. So we will need another perspective from somebody who got to their Japanese to a level where they could work with it, who took it slowly and leisurely

I'm not going to post the atengths of the whiteboard method because of you can't see them when you read the guideline then it's honestly not going to work for you. It only works if you buy into it and accept that it is designed to push your capacity and discipline to learning.

Porcile · Dec 15, 2015

I agree with Resilient, all you guys who are like "my method is totally better for realz. Here's an analogy." yet you don't even post said methods, even though you can find the time to write lengthy posts dismissing the ones where someone has taken the time to propose an alternative method. Some of you are even lazier than that, I'm looking at you Andy Dufresne and your magical metal saw. When you post some genuine alternatives, then we can talk. Instead we're relying on shitty analogies to form the basis of a discussion of real things.

Goodsprings · Dec 15, 2015

marimorimo said:
If brute memorizing were indeed the most effective way, then why is it almost impossible to find a grammatically correct English sign in Tokyo? Why is it hard to find someone who speaks halfway decent English? Japanese students cram tons of grammar and vocabulary to be able to pass entrance exams (where they are expected to translate college-level English).

Which part of Tokyo are you in? Also, id like to know your definition of "decent"....

I don't like to speak Japanese even though its my first language. When I speak Japanese, I have to be very careful and polite. When I speak English, I don't have to care about anything. Simples. English is easier...

On topic.
I don't think studying (like memorizing vocabulary) would help you speak a language. Actually, ive met some people who have studied Japanese or English for 3 to 5 years in school.(university or grad school) and its hard to say they can speak Japanese fluently. They had a difficult time understanding my Japanese(or english) in the first place, and they asked me to speak very slowly. I think they know the japanese grammar much more than I do. Since I have never even thought about the grammar, I know nothing about it. The same thing can be said for all the languages, I assume. Native speakers don't know much about the grammar in principle. I don't even know about English grammar, but I had to speak some English to live confortably, that's the way I learned English. You just have to use it to learn a language I believe.

urfe · Dec 15, 2015

Goodsprings said:
I don't like to speak Japanese even though its my first language. When I speak Japanese, I have to be very careful and polite. When I speak English, I don't have to care about anything. Simples. English is easier...

I disagree with this.

I probably worry about wording in a English business mail more than in Japanese, as it's less defined. Also, I'm just as casual with friends, classmates, colleagues in Japanese as I am in English.

I'm interested to hear why you think so.

Porcile · Dec 15, 2015

Goodsprings said:
On topic.
I don't think studying (like memorizing vocabulary) would help you speak a language. Actually, ive met some people who have studied Japanese or English for 3 to 5 years in school.(university or grad school) and its hard to say they can speak Japanese fluently. They had a difficult time understanding my Japanese(or english) in the first place, and they asked me to speak very slowly. I think they know the japanese grammar much more than I do. Since I have never even thought about the grammar, I know nothing about it. The same thing can be said for all the languages, I assume. Native speakers don't know much about the grammar in principle. I don't even know about English grammar, but I had to speak some English to live confortably, that's the way I learned English. You just have to use it to learn a language I believe.

The majority of us who are doing the three month thing will either be living in Japan or want to live in Japan, where we will be forced to speak in Japanese. There really isn't a need for a speaking guide, because you either will be speaking it, or you wont be speaking it. Expert's method gives you the tools and the knowledge base to be able to DEVELOP speaking skills without the need for long term formal education.

People who go to school in their home country to learn a language, will be at the natural disadvantage of still being in a situation where the primary mode of communication in their day to day life outside of education is in the native language. This isn't the case for someone who does the three month thing, and then moves to the country where the practical application of study is necessary, not an obligation to fulfill as part of a school curriculum.

Porcile · Dec 15, 2015

I can't help but feel that marimorimo thinks expert's method is devaluing the experience of real communication and his/her formal education in languages, and that those of us doing it think we'll be JLPT N1 日本語 masters when we're done.

Wrong.

Nothing will replace three or four years experience speaking Japanese everyday in Japan. All expert's method does is eliminate two HUGE barriers in a very short amount of time: reading and listening. so that any use of language afterwards is "study" via practical application. Except, we wont have to look at textbooks and do flavourless textbook exercises four hours a day for four years just to be able to pass some multiple choice exam in order to have that opportunity.

Goodsprings · Dec 15, 2015

urfe said:
I disagree with this.

I probably worry about wording in a English business mail more than in Japanese, as it's less defined. Also, I'm just as casual with friends, classmates, colleagues in Japanese as I am in English.

I'm interested to hear why you think so.

Oh. Maybe it's about expectations. People would have high expectations on you when you write a business email in English since you are English, but in Japanese it shouldn't be that much. I actually feel the same way. I'm expected to be perfect when I write in Japanese. I have to deal with a lot of business emails on a daily basis. When it's English, I feel so comfortable because the expectations are so low. [I don't know why, but a lot of people tend to think like Japanese in general don't speak English, which isn't true from my experience.] However, when it's Japanese, sigh, I have to be outrageously careful, I can be blamed for anything. In my book, Japanese have high standards, and those standards are so arduous as to make it impossible for Japanese to leave the office on time. Its just theres less pressure when I speak English, which is why I prefer to speak English even outside work. Having said that, come to think of it, when I talk with non Japanese, it's easy to speak Japanese. lol

I'm an expert · Dec 15, 2015

I feel like we're just going in circles. I wrote out a menu of study that isn't just go to class or follow a series of textbooks. No one else has countered it with an equally effective method that accomplishes the same thing at the same speed.

Couple points that I've said multiple times already:

1. The guide was never recommended to beginners.

2. There was writing and speaking production with native Japanese people in MY routine, but, as I noted in the first post of the guide and after in responses, I cut it out here because not everyone has access to native speakers and most don't have this as their main goal. I don't know how many times I have to say this.

But even if I did include the production portions, it still takes years of practice in real settings to achieve proficiency. I went to Japan, you went to Japan, that's why we're proficient. Not because I used a whiteboard and you used anime.

You won't post a specific method because there is none, it's the same shit every internet jmaster has done. Consume endless children's media because it's the easiest to digest. What did you do to lock that knowledge in? To practice that knowledge? What did you do outside of 'have fun.' Please tell us how you went from reading manga, watching anime, and listening to jpop to passing jlpt1.

We know you studied in Japan, we know you moved to Japan, we know you work in Japan. Are these not the reasons your Japanese is where it's at..? Yes, over years of media consumption you had a huge base of j-knowledge that made it easier to pick up the language. But you admitted to us you don't think you could even explain jlpt2 and up grammar confidently. Isn't that..strange? And I don't mean it in a technical, language study way. I mean if someone asked you what this phrase they have in a book meant.. and the phrase happened to be an advanced grammar point you couldn't answer? I could. Isn't that proficiency?

You mentioned friends that never cracked anything but BL manga and passed jlpt2 or 1. Tell us how. How did they study all the reading, listening, and grammar to pass jlpt1. I mean I'm genuinely curious. Years of doing nothing but watching anime or reading manga with a dictionary in hand? Isn't that more insane than someone doing my method, which basically just focuses on the required points of the shitty memorization test rather than a mish mash of random shit you'd find in stories about kid ninjas?

You mentioned your manga master friend became a Japanese professor. So, he had a formal high education in language and language studies.. isn't that why he's proficient enough to be a teacher?

And let's say manga and anime is the reason your friends are jlpt 2/1 literate. I still doubt they did it in 3 months, the way my method would. The whole point of my method is to cut out the fat and get to the point.

I have never met anyone who wasn't a weeb recommend anime or manga as study platforms. This is not an insult or a judgment. I love games and manga and jpop too. What I'm saying is, I have never met someone who hasn't had their life IMMENSELY influenced by typical weeb stuff recommend this study method. I have come across many, many, many foreigners proficient in Japanese in my life. Never has a professor, a businessman, a lawyer, even many ALTs I've met, said to me 'I had never watched anime or played Japanese games before, but the reason I am where I am in my language ability is this methodology of study I applied to games, anime, and manga.'

This is a quote from you:

marimorimo said:
I grew up a weaboo watching anime almost exclusively

All of the people who have 'defended' the anime or song study in this thread have hundreds of posts in anime/jpop/whatever threads, anime avatars, anime names. This is not an insult or judgment. It is just obvious that people who have such a strong connection to this subculture of Japan would defend it. It's their connection to Japan and the language. Would you not admit you revolving your life around Japan is strongly connected to your love of this media?

But then why can't all of you defenders of that content break down for us the efficiencies, strengths, and proper application of that content and how it can lead to language proficiency.

Yes, you listened to some random song and it has a useful phrase or word. So you just continually pump jmusic until you've come across, randomly, a majority of the useful words or phrases you'd need to survive in Japan?

I just want to make clear, if I do make the new thread, the first sentence across the top will be:
YOU CANNOT BE PROFICIENT IN JAPANESE THROUGH ANIME, MANGA, AND GAMES WITHOUT A PROPER METHODOLOGY BEHIND IT

Because to suggest otherwise is just buffoonery. Plain and simple. Yes, you can use anime, manga, songs, games to supplement your study. Yes, they are useful, yes they are helpful, yes they are enjoyable.

They are not efficient and they are not practical for true.. TRUE.. TRUE proficiency in a reasonable amount of time and I have no problem breaking the norm of these types of threads to say so.

Goodsprings · Dec 15, 2015

Porcile said:
The majority of us who are doing the three month thing will either be living in Japan or want to live in Japan, where we will be forced to speak in Japanese. There really isn't a need for a speaking guide, because you either will be speaking it, or you wont be speaking it. Expert's method gives you the tools and the knowledge base to be able to DEVELOP speaking skills without the need for long term formal education.

People who go to school in their home country to learn a language, will be at the natural disadvantage of still being in a situation where the primary mode of communication in their day to day life outside of education is in the native language. This isn't the case for someone who does the three month thing, and then moves to the country where the practical application of study is necessary, not an obligation to fulfill as part of a school curriculum.

Oh yeah. Those who have studied Japanese in Japan would be different. Studying Japanese in Japanese university would be different. You are right. I just recently had a chance to meet people who have studied Japanese in their home country, which is why I was unconsciously focusing on em in my previous post.

marimorimo · Dec 15, 2015

Resilient said:
Expert is working on a new thread. If your philosophy works and you believe it can take you to fluency, then if you have the time (you said you're working), please share it and we can add it to the new OP. I asked before but you must have missed it which is fine. A lot has happened the last few pages lol.

Alright, I didn't expect this when I initially posted but since you asked I will give the details of my "slow study" philosophy. This is based on my experience studying 4 foreign languages (English, Spanish, Japanese, and French).

First off, for me these are the best methods of learning a language in the following order:

1) Move to the target country and get a boyfriend/girlfriend who speaks the target language. Barring that, surround yourself with people who only speak that language. Immersion is key.

You have to put yourself in a position where you are forced to speak. This is painful, but the rewards are great.

There are people who have lived for years in Japan but still can't speak a lick. Due to pride or whatever hung-up they have they simply didn't try.

2) If you can't move to the target country, surround yourself with people who only speak the target language around you. Since you can't surround yourself with the language 24/7 and you can easily default to your native tongue when the going gets tough, the efficacy is only a fraction of No. 1 but if you keep at it you will easily be able beat a college student going to language classes when it comes to conversation.

3) If you can't move and you can't get native speakers to surround you, the only option left is to replicate the "natural learning environment" artificially. Get a teacher or take a class. If you can't get a professional, a friend can help (native speakers usually cannot exlain grammar but they can tell if you are right or wrong).

For every new vocabulary or grammar point you study, make sure you do the following, whether the teachers asks you to do it or not:

- Speak a sentence using the grammatical point. Say it out loud. Many times. Do variations. Act it out while you're saying it. If you're studying directions, place a pen on a desk and say ペンが机の上にあります。Place it under the desk and say ペンが机の下にあります。Do the same for left, right, etc. If you have a tutor or someone else studying with you, you could take turns and ask each other, ペンはどこにありますか？ Someone removes the pen. ペンがありません。Next, the plain form. 机の上にペンがある。ペンがない。

In an ideal setting, you will have a teacher or native speaker watching over you while you do this. Ask them to correct not only your grammar but also your pronunciation. This is important.

The words will sound foreign to the tongue and horrible to the ear. This is normal. When you get accustomed to it, it will sound perfectly natural.

- After you have said all variations out loud, write the sentences down. Ask a teacher to check.

The speaking practice part should take the longest, not the studying. It should not be done in a group (the whole class reciting the answer) because not everyone learns at the same pace. There are a lot of things a learner thinks he already "knows" but when you ask him for output (speaking, writing) he quickly finds out he didn't actually know it. The knowledge was purely theoretical.

If you can speak it, you can write it. Therefore, speaking comes before writing.

This is takes as much work (if not more) than the "speed method." Practicing speaking and writing in a foreign language is a much more powerful brain workout than plain memorizing. It's also effective in retaining information. With this method, you will only learn a few concepts a day at most. But you will be able to actually use what you had learned in a variety of contexts. Quality takes precedence over quantity. Continually challenge yourself, but move at a comfortable pace. If you're not "getting" a concept, practice it some more. Practice the concept you learned the previous day. Build on it. Make numerous mistakes and learn from them.

After doing the speaking and writing practice, you are free to choose your supplementary material in the target language. Movies, manga, news...it doesn't matter. Choose the media that will motivate you the most. If watching an anime or movie, the subtitles must be in the target language. Subtitles in English are mostly useless. If you're confident enough, remove the subtitles altogether. This covers the bases for passive learning.

Once you reach a certain level, you will notice that anime, manga, and movies are no longer cutting it. They no longer present a challenge. You are already able to read, write, and speak at a conversational level. That is the time when you transition to "meatier" stuff. News, novels, technical texts.

If the student were diligent, I would expect him to cover all the bases (conversational, N3 level) in 2-4 years. He may not know N1 grammar but he can confidently converse and write with no pauses or hesitation on everyday topics. He would have plenty of experience with OUTPUT by now. By consuming media, he may already be familiar with higher level grammar without knowing it. If he had asked a teacher or friend to pay attention to his pronunciation, he would now be speaking with a beautiful accent.

This is what I wish I had done when I started studying Spanish and Japanese. Instead I did a wishy-washy version (spending as few hours on the grammar book as possible, just enough to get the gist) and diving headfirst into doing what I love: read manga in Japanese. It got me through to JLPT Level 3. For Level 2 and 1, I had the luxury of actually being in Japan. I did take classes, but I spent less time on the book and more with conversing with people. A variation of the above is what I'm currently using to learn beginner French. I haven't been doing it long so I can't guarantee the results, but the knowledge retainment part is spot-on.

Goodsprings said:
Which part of Tokyo are you in? Also, id like to know your definition of "decent"....

I don't like to speak Japanese even though its my first language. When I speak Japanese, I have to be very careful and polite. When I speak English, I don't have to care about anything. Simples. English is easier...

I was working at Aoyama but we moved abroad two weeks ago. My definition of "decent" is not looking like deer in the headlights when being spoken to in English and not having an accent so heavy it sounds more Japanese than English.

I don't think studying (like memorizing vocabulary) would help you speak a language. Actually, ive met some people who have studied Japanese or English for 3 to 5 years in school.(university or grad school) and its hard to say they can speak Japanese fluently. They had a difficult time understanding my Japanese(or english) in the first place, and they asked me to speak very slowly. I think they know the japanese grammar much more than I do. Since I have never even thought about the grammar, I know nothing about it. The same thing can be said for all the languages, I assume. Native speakers don't know much about the grammar in principle. I don't even know about English grammar, but I had to speak some English to live confortably, that's the way I learned English. You just have to use it to learn a language I believe.

That is my exact experience which is why lost faith in methods that are grammar-intensive.

I'm an expert · Dec 15, 2015

I feel like we shifted topics too quickly and now we're in two different places. I was also combining all of you/nocebo/the other guy's posts in my head and replying as one.

Putting that aside, I like this post, it is exactly what the thread needs. Thanks.

Unfortunately my morning GAF time is up so I'll have to respond more later.

Porcile · Dec 15, 2015

Practical advice trumps all analogies. Please, no more tortoises, diets, kayaks and files from now on. Unless the use of a tortoise is directly related to learning Japanese.

marimorimo · Dec 15, 2015

I hope everyone has said their peace now. If anyone has any constructive criticism about the "slow method," I'd be happy to hear them. It helps everyone to know the pros and cons of all methods.

Goodsprings said:
Oh. Maybe it's about expectations. People would have high expectations on you when you write a business email in English since you are English, but in Japanese it shouldn't be that much. I actually feel the same way. I'm expected to be perfect when I write in Japanese. I have to deal with a lot of business emails on a daily basis. When it's English, I feel so comfortable because the expectations are so low. [I don't know why, but a lot of people tend to think like Japanese in general don't speak English, which isn't true from my experience.] However, when it's Japanese, sigh, I have to be outrageously careful, I can be blamed for anything. In my book, Japanese have high standards, and those standards are so arduous as to make it impossible for Japanese to leave the office on time. Its just theres less pressure when I speak English, which is why I prefer to speak English even outside work. Having said that, come to think of it, when I talk with non Japanese, it's easy to speak Japanese. lol

That is my experience as well. At work where I have to write emails in Japanese 50% of the time, I have to be super extra careful. Even with email, I practically have to tiptoe around one particularly difficult person. Due to the office culture, it even bleeds into my English emails.

When I was still new I let some emails go sloppy thinking I could play the "gaijin card." It turns out, when you get to a high enough level Japanese people assume you can do and understand most of everything, or even act/think like a Japanese. It led to some embarrassing misunderstandings. (Great learning experience though....)

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