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The Big Ass Superior Thread of Learning Japanese

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T

TheSporkWithin

Member
RangerBAD said:
I kind of regret not doing that before I started Tobira, but better late than never. Any book I should buy or site I should use?
Click to expand...

I personally built a deck in Anki using the RTK study order (as it helped me greatly in reinforcing the differences between similar kanji), which incorporated multiple compounds for each character to reinforce the meanings and readings.

If I could do it again I'd probably use something like this instead: http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/401010855X/

It's just a simple little book (literally little, it's A6 sized) that goes through all the elementary school kanji with stroke order and helpful little tips along with common word lists for each.

Of course you don't truly NEED anything, you could just pull up a JLPT kanji list and use a dictionary to build your own word lists. You should definitely go back and read through expert's big post. Kanji is a grind, and the sooner and faster you can get that grind into a routine the better.
 
T

TheSporkWithin

Member
Resilient said:
ないことはない vs　ないこともない

You would only use these if somebody triggered it, i.e. "Eric said you dislike Ramen?", but is the only difference between the two that ないことはない is a bit stronger than ないこともない i.e. ないこともない is weaker?

Any real world examples where some of you have used this expression/seen it used to help clarify it a bit more?
Click to expand...

They're essentially interchangeable, but も is softer. There's not any situation where using one would be incorrect, and it really comes down to the speaker's preferences. If you're worried that the other person will be displeased with what you're saying, you might be inclined to use も rather than は for example.
 
R

Resilient

Member
TheSporkWithin said:
They're essentially interchangeable, but も is softer. There's not any situation where using one would be incorrect, and it really comes down to the speaker's preferences. If you're worried that the other person will be displeased with what you're saying, you might be inclined to use も rather than は for example.
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Thanks for the insight. What I wrote was based on the notes in the Grammar bible, just wanted to see what other ppl thought..

I'm an expert said:
Good point dont forget name kanji you need those too.
Click to expand...

..no comment on the grammar point above? using the bibles a lot of the time i find i want to know more about it, so i'll ask my tutor. and her answer is generally "it means this, but you only need to just know it, you would probably never use it". she said this last week, wanted to bring it up but not out of the blue. seems kind of on topic now. thoughts? it's not like it matters, still need to learn it for the test and for an understanding of the language, but how often do you use some of these grammar patterns?
 
R

Resilient

Member
nah only came across it tonight. I'll ask her Next week though. I like seeing what people over there are using that's why i asked.

The reason I ask though is cause I like the insight into how non-native speakers use what they've learned. I would like to know more about people's struggles using the language for the first time when living in Japan. Nobody talks about it (it doesn't get brought up) but there were glimpses over the last page. Like , what happens? Your brain goes into auto and you bring out what you need to say in the moment? Is it forced? Does it feel natural after a few days? Weeks? Who do you pick up mannerisms and styles from? Who are you mimicking? I think the only impressions I've seen are from some Reddit posts but they're usually "can't believe this Japanese dude would only speak to me in English damnit!"
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Well your sensei is not wrong in that most of the shit you'll learn up to 1 you'll probably never see or use because there is always a more casual/simpler way to say it. That video is actually a good example as it has a lot of those kinds of grammar. But it doesn't mean you won't run into it, it just means you probably won't run into it the way you studied it for a test.

As a foreigner, you will most likely revert to the simplest thing in your mind to express yourself. You probably won't reach for advanced grammar points because you feel safer using the easier ones, and the easier ones still get the point across. Advanced grammar points really come when you want to add nuance, right?

The stuff you pick up there are more mannerisms and colloquial ways of expressing common ideas. I think a good example of this, and other people who work in Japan can back me up, is the way most people use some variation of te itadaketara/itadakereba (ii na to omou) which is not anything you will pick up in a book. But literally everyone says it. But you'll never see it in a show. But literally everyone says it. So why wouldn't you?

To your point with nai koto ha nai, I use it plenty, just not always in book ways. Think about it like this.. you're at a bar with some guy and you're talking about whatever and he says do you like xxx do you do xxx are you into xxx..

You could reply with 'hai' or 'iie' and some kind of 'suki desu' or 'iya desu' or whatever the fuck.. and you'd answer his question. Or you could bite your teeth, suck air in, and say 'maaa nai koto ha nai kedo.....' and you've expressed something in the middle of yes/no that you can then expand on.
 
T

TheSporkWithin

Member
Resilient said:
..no comment on the grammar point above? using the bibles a lot of the time i find i want to know more about it, so i'll ask my tutor. and her answer is generally "it means this, but you only need to just know it, you would probably never use it". she said this last week, wanted to bring it up but not out of the blue. seems kind of on topic now. thoughts? it's not like it matters, still need to learn it for the test and for an understanding of the language, but how often do you use some of these grammar patterns?
Click to expand...

Once you're working on N2 grammar, and especially N1, there's a lot of stuff that is completely nonessential. You move on from what we'd consider basic grammar, and into rhetoric and how to make lively conversation instead of just conveying information. Native speakers use this stuff every day, and thus it is essential grammar, but, as a language learner, learning to use these new patterns is far less important than learning to understand them. If you're still having trouble using all the N5-N3 grammar in light conversation, trying to grasp small differences between two nearly identical phrases of protest is absolutely unimportant, compared to other things that are far more useful and everyday.

Imagine that you have a friend, and just yesterday he said "Coach made 30 pushups do me." instead of "My coach made me do 30 pushups." Today he comes up and asks you "what's the difference between "I wouldn't mind having breakfast at 8" and "I wouldn't object to having breakfast at 8"" You'd probably tell him that it's not important and he's probably not going to need to use it, so if he understands what it means it's totally okay.

This is also one of the admitted gaps in "the whiteboard method." I don't want to call it a shortcoming, because there's not any other method that magically makes this stuff easy and fast. Learning to understand all of this stuff and use it naturally takes time and exposure. You're setting the foundations by learning about it, and doing so in a remarkably short time frame compared to other people who study in a college class or work at a somewhat more leisurely pace (like myself), but natural use of this sort of rhetoric will take a lot more time.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
The whiteboard method's point is to pass jlpt1. Therefore, it is quite opposite of a gap. You actually learn every pointless grammar under the sun for the slight possibility of a question on it.

edit: I wanted to link kentei's pass results but couldn't find the official stats anymore, other sites list full cerification rates for levels 1/2 at about ~15%
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
TheSporkWithin said:
I personally built a deck in Anki using the RTK study order (as it helped me greatly in reinforcing the differences between similar kanji), which incorporated multiple compounds for each character to reinforce the meanings and readings.

If I could do it again I'd probably use something like this instead: http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/401010855X/

It's just a simple little book (literally little, it's A6 sized) that goes through all the elementary school kanji with stroke order and helpful little tips along with common word lists for each.

Of course you don't truly NEED anything, you could just pull up a JLPT kanji list and use a dictionary to build your own word lists. You should definitely go back and read through expert's big post. Kanji is a grind, and the sooner and faster you can get that grind into a routine the better.
Click to expand...

If I buy something, I need to be able to get it from the US Amazon and hopefully something Amazon fulfills from their warehouses. Of course just a website might be fine and there's been some linked.
 
T

TheSporkWithin

Member
I'm an expert said:
The whiteboard method's point is to pass jlpt1. Therefore, it is quite opposite of a gap. You actually learn every pointless grammar under the sun for the slight possibility of a question on it.
Click to expand...

What I meant was that for the purpose of passing the N1 there is no need to tell whether ないこともなお or ないことはない is slightly more appropriate, because for the purposes of N1 they're the same grammar. That's why I said it's not a shortcoming. It's literally beside the point for the purposes of that method of study, and you've said as much.
 
T

TheSporkWithin

Member
RangerBAD said:
Yeah, I found that, but nothing fulfilled by Amazon. I trust sellers when they're inventory is actually in an Amazon warehouse. lol
Click to expand...

You can also order from Japanese Amazon and they'll ship to America. It'll cost a little bit more though. But marketplace is quite reliable, and covered by Amazon's customer support and guarantees.
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
TheSporkWithin said:
You can also order from Japanese Amazon and they'll ship to America. It'll cost a little bit more though. But marketplace is quite reliable, and covered by Amazon's customer support and guarantees.
Click to expand...

If it were me, then I'd do that. It's not my money that buys things. Some people aren't comfortable with making accounts in other countries. I'm comfortable with something in Japan, but like I said...
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
TheSporkWithin said:
Once you're working on N2 grammar, and especially N1, there's a lot of stuff that is completely nonessential.
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on your definition of "essential," but I would totally disagree with this statement if it were being made towards someone who actually wants to become fluent in the language.

There is nothing in the JLPT (N1 or below) that is esoteric or even uncommon, I would say. Everything in the tests and more will come up if you read books, newspapers, magazines, watch television, work in a professional environment, etc.

I'm an expert said:
The stuff you pick up there are more mannerisms and colloquial ways of expressing common ideas. I think a good example of this, and other people who work in Japan can back me up, is the way most people use some variation of te itadaketara/itadakereba (ii na to omou) which is not anything you will pick up in a book. But literally everyone says it. But you'll never see it in a show. But literally everyone says it. So why wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

Great example. ～ていただければと思います and its relatives are super common expressions when asking someone to do something, but not wanting to sound too direct or to put too much pressure on the person with whom you're communicating.
 
R

Resilient

Member
I'm an expert said:
Well your sensei is not wrong in that most of the shit you'll learn up to 1 you'll probably never see or use because there is always a more casual/simpler way to say it. That video is actually a good example as it has a lot of those kinds of grammar. But it doesn't mean you won't run into it, it just means you probably won't run into it the way you studied it for a test.

As a foreigner, you will most likely revert to the simplest thing in your mind to express yourself. You probably won't reach for advanced grammar points because you feel safer using the easier ones, and the easier ones still get the point across. Advanced grammar points really come when you want to add nuance, right?

The stuff you pick up there are more mannerisms and colloquial ways of expressing common ideas. I think a good example of this, and other people who work in Japan can back me up, is the way most people use some variation of te itadaketara/itadakereba (ii na to omou) which is not anything you will pick up in a book. But literally everyone says it. But you'll never see it in a show. But literally everyone says it. So why wouldn't you?

To your point with nai koto ha nai, I use it plenty, just not always in book ways. Think about it like this.. you're at a bar with some guy and you're talking about whatever and he says do you like xxx do you do xxx are you into xxx..

You could reply with 'hai' or 'iie' and some kind of 'suki desu' or 'iya desu' or whatever the fuck.. and you'd answer his question. Or you could bite your teeth, suck air in, and say 'maaa nai koto ha nai kedo.....' and you've expressed something in the middle of yes/no that you can then expand on.
Click to expand...

TheSporkWithin said:
Once you're working on N2 grammar, and especially N1, there's a lot of stuff that is completely nonessential. You move on from what we'd consider basic grammar, and into rhetoric and how to make lively conversation instead of just conveying information. Native speakers use this stuff every day, and thus it is essential grammar, but, as a language learner, learning to use these new patterns is far less important than learning to understand them. If you're still having trouble using all the N5-N3 grammar in light conversation, trying to grasp small differences between two nearly identical phrases of protest is absolutely unimportant, compared to other things that are far more useful and everyday.

Imagine that you have a friend, and just yesterday he said "Coach made 30 pushups do me." instead of "My coach made me do 30 pushups." Today he comes up and asks you "what's the difference between "I wouldn't mind having breakfast at 8" and "I wouldn't object to having breakfast at 8"" You'd probably tell him that it's not important and he's probably not going to need to use it, so if he understands what it means it's totally okay.

This is also one of the admitted gaps in "the whiteboard method." I don't want to call it a shortcoming, because there's not any other method that magically makes this stuff easy and fast. Learning to understand all of this stuff and use it naturally takes time and exposure. You're setting the foundations by learning about it, and doing so in a remarkably short time frame compared to other people who study in a college class or work at a somewhat more leisurely pace (like myself), but natural use of this sort of rhetoric will take a lot more time.
Click to expand...

thanks. as I move past the simple terms that help me express my self in a round way, and in to the trickier/more tedious/difficult stuff, i just like to see how other people who have been exposed to that content for longer treat it.

I will say though that the Whiteboard method can actually be extremely handy for learning the nuances and differences between grammar points/patterns that are similar, provided you have the right resources and are setting it up correctly. here is an example of my writing list for N2 so far. I use this, and force myself to pull the Grammar from memory using the English trigger. the idea is that when I ever need to do this or I see it in the wild, I can associate it's meaning with an explanation I have set up.

n2day273ujo.png


１３.てたまらない。
１４.て仕方がない。
１５.てかなわない。
１６.てならない。
１７.ないことはない。
１８.ないこともない。
１９.ないではいられない。
２０.ずにはいられない。

now using this, when I stare at the board I have to just remember what it is using the small cues I've given myself (generally the form of a Verb, noun, adjective etc that precedes it) so that I can just become used to it. It works well, it takes usually 3-4 days for the harder ones to stick, and a day or 2 for the simpler ones.

The triggers are made using either partial explanation from the Japanese Grammar dictionaries (which completely flesh out each point) or the Jgram database, which is handy because it covers the N1 - N4 points in list form. I'm also using a textbook just to make sure I'm not missing anything that may pop up in the test.

So, yeah lol just wanted to say you can actually completely cover the grammar as far as it can go using text resources, if you set it up properly for the whiteboard method. BUT obviously you need to use it and see it in the wild, and in proper conversation to fully understand it's use, and when to use it (which was why I asked lol).
 
L

leroidys

Member
Porcile said:
I think it's better to think of it like having the ability to write kanji is a byproduct of having the ability to think in kanji, which is far more important. Just being able to make all those connections in your head that being able to think in kanji lets you do. That's some really powerful stuff, and a much more important reason to learn how to write kanji rather than for the mad kudos you'll get from your staggered friends, who will probably just be amazed that you know how to hold a pen in the first place.

That's why I said a couple pages back that while Wanikani is OK for what it is, your relationship with Japanese would be superficial and all surface, literally, because you could only ever engage with kanji if you saw it written on a surface. You wouldn't be able to think in kanji. This is coming from someone that did the Wanikani thing for five months and has had my brain my fucked up for the last month because all the kanji I thought that I knew, I didn't. Like, when you have that base of 600-1000 kanji; stroke orders, radicals, meanings, readings etc the amount of connections you can make just in your head is crazy. When you get to 2000+...

A quick test. Just think of all the ways you could write にゅうかんりょう in kanji. Not a complicated word, maybe you know what it means, but without looking that word up, just try and hand-write that in kanji. I'm going to assume all you Wanikani-only users mostly likely can't write it correctly, or even begin to, and for those that can write kanji could write a number of different combinations which could fit that word. Obviously only one is right, but that's what I mean by making connections. Like, having 2000+ characters in your head and being able to whittle it down to just two or three, still all in your head, is funkin' crazy when you stop and think about it.

Long story short, whatever method you're using, learn to write the kanji, not just so you can write them, but so you can think in kanji. It's not that hard, and anyone who tells you any differently never bothered to learn how to do it. I'm aware that this entire post makes me sound like a condescending hipster douche because I didn't always do things this way. Wish I did though.
Click to expand...

Yeah, this makes sense. My main draw to wanikani was that it taught radicals, and this makes picking up new kanji much easier for me, and it's been helping me with readings as well (this doesn't help so much for trying to translate a word I only know phonetically into kanji, but it definitely helps for figuring out kanji compounds I haven't seen before or don't see often). I need to try and find some excuses to make myself write more, and maybe pick up some readers to help with the reading aspect. I've spent a lot of time doing rote kanji learning in the past, and agree that it's just a waste of time if you're only approaching kanji in one or two directions.
 
L

Laevateinn

Member
Porcile said:
Useful resource: http://tangorin.com/common_kanji

Has a list of the 2500 most common kanji used in newspapers, although I'm not sure what the source is.
Click to expand...

This is great. I've never really stopped and figured out exactly where my kanji level would lie before. Whenever I would talk to a Chinese or Japanese friend about kanji I would estimate that I knew about 300. Going by this, it turns out I'm decently into N2 level. I have no idea how that happened.
 
R

Resilient

Member
RangerBAD said:
I'm trying to do I'm an expert's kanji/vocab method but in segments. Having trouble getting started.
Click to expand...

as i've mentioned before I use this website http://kanjicards.org/, go to Kanji Lists, click Individual List, generate a list based on all the things being important, limit the list to 25 per page (to start, past 100 I generate at 100 per page), and then make my own list from there using the words that I think will be most important, useful, have Kanji that I will need to learn 2 months from today, and form parts of VERBS, the last is really important because this list doesn't teach you verbs based on the kanji in the list. you have to read the Kunyomi and figure it out yourself. I use http://jisho.org/. Note: writing a list takes my about 45m-60m. so it's a length process. If you like I can send you my lists so far, takes a lot of the leg work out of it but takes away from some of the study and familiarising you would do if you made your own list.
 
B

blurr

Member
Been speaking with a language partner I met on Hello Talk, many times I've noticed that I find it hard to frame some sentences, particularly with words I hardly ever use.

Much recently, I was told the word 『丁寧体」(TL Polite-style Japanese) is archaic, frankly I just looked it up and used it hoping he would point it out but I had to explicitly ask. Is there a more colloquial term for this?
 
K

Kurita

Member
blurr said:
Been speaking with a language partner I met on Hello Talk, many times I've noticed that I find it hard to frame some sentences, particularly with words I hardly ever use.

Much recently, I was told the word 『丁寧体」(TL Polite-style Japanese) is archaic, frankly I just looked it up and used it hoping he would point it out but I had to explicitly ask. Is there a more colloquial term for this?
Click to expand...

My teachers just say ていねいことば.
 
R

RangerBAD

Member
Resilient said:
as i've mentioned before I use this website http://kanjicards.org/, go to Kanji Lists, click Individual List, generate a list based on all the things being important, limit the list to 25 per page (to start, past 100 I generate at 100 per page), and then make my own list from there using the words that I think will be most important, useful, have Kanji that I will need to learn 2 months from today, and form parts of VERBS, the last is really important because this list doesn't teach you verbs based on the kanji in the list. you have to read the Kunyomi and figure it out yourself. I use http://jisho.org/. Note: writing a list takes my about 45m-60m. so it's a length process. If you like I can send you my lists so far, takes a lot of the leg work out of it but takes away from some of the study and familiarising you would do if you made your own list.
Click to expand...

So you add words to your list first and then do the practice half of it? I was using the list Porcile linked, but I went with the grades since I'll probably never take JLPT.
 
R

Resilient

Member
RangerBAD said:
So you add words to your list first and then do the practice half of it? I was using the list Porcile linked, but I went with the grades since I'll probably never take JLPT.
Click to expand...

every day I write up a new list based on a new 25-30 Kanji. it will have a min. 3 words/verbs in it. eg.

ヒcriticism, strike
• じこひはんself-criticism　じ己ひはん
• ひひょうかcritic
• ひてんcorrection marks

I put Kanji in that I know/don't know to help trigger it. this is just the way I do it.

Then when I do my whiteboard shit, I'm forced to remember it. i write the list the day before, this is just because I'm busy. honestly, list writing is the worst part of the whole method, it's so time consuming. but it comes an invaluable resource. I spend an hour or two writing a list for the next day Kanji or grammar. when I have time i try to push ahead and do more to give myself more free time for other shit lol.

After about 2-3 days I can remember it easily so I only write 1 word for that day with the common kanji. Until it's learned though, I write all 3.
 
P

putarorex

Member
What is the end game for most people here? Why are you studying the language? Do you plan to use it in your job?

I have been working as a Japanese-to-English translator for about 20 years and don't see many young translators (under 30) these days. I do see a lot of people who speak the language really well, but they are not translators (though just because you can speak the language does not mean you can make money as a translator).
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
I want to go to Japan and teach english while traveling to different ramen shops and posting pics on my blog. If my Japanese is good I can ask the chefs to give me their secret, best dish that they reserve only for the locals. That way my blog will be famous and make me ad money to support living in Tokyo.
 
S

shanshan310

Member
putarorex said:
What is the end game for most people here? Why are you studying the language? Do you plan to use it in your job?

I have been working as a Japanese-to-English translator for about 20 years and don't see many young translators (under 30) these days. I do see a lot of people who speak the language really well, but they are not translators (though just because you can speak the language does not mean you can make money as a translator).
Click to expand...

Translation honestly just seems really stressful. I did some part time freelance stuff a while ago and just found it very tiring, especially with the money being so unstable.

My end game is some kind of government job with the dep of foreign affairs or defence, although honestly there are a bunch of positions I'd be happy working in. And yeah, I want to be using my Japanese, or if not my Korean.

I'm an expert said:
I want to go to Japan and teach english while traveling to different ramen shops and posting pics on my blog. If my Japanese is good I can ask the chefs to give me their secret, best dish that they reserve only for the locals. That way my blog will be famous and make me ad money to support living in Tokyo.
Click to expand...

hah!
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
I wouldn't say that I had a specific end goal in mind. For me, it's more along the lines of double your language, double your opportunities. Given that I have a degree and experience in things not related not related to anything specifically Japanese, having extra language ability, hopefully backed up with a qualification will be very useful in the long term.

I'm an expert said:
I want to go to Japan and teach english while traveling to different ramen shops and posting pics on my blog. If my Japanese is good I can ask the chefs to give me their secret, best dish that they reserve only for the locals. That way my blog will be famous and make me ad money to support living in Tokyo.
Click to expand...

Lol a blog? Like, words and stuff? Did the calendar go from 2015 to 2008 last night? Get on that Youtube train. Show us your apartment and stuff. Let's see that sink built into the toilet.
 
L

LorDjidane

Member
My goal would be to go work and live in Japan. But I want to work in my field (electronics or photonics engineering), not teaching languages or working in restaurants.

I'm having a hard time. To keep motivation up and get out of the books and flashcards and whatnot, I'm looking for entry level videogames, with furigana, dialogs and everything. Browing this thread is nice for that, thank you to all the people that had been discussing this.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
How many years of experience do you have in your engineering field?
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
He wants video games with furigana. His level is nonexistent. With his experience I was going to recommend just getting the job first and learning while there, because his current 'plan' is a one way ticket to nowheresville.
 
L

LorDjidane

Member
I'd say around 300 (with only half for which I know readings so far; I had been learning only the meanings, that's why furigana would help to get the readings in). Grammar level close to JLPT N4.

And about getting the job first, I looked (just a bit, I don't wanna leave my current company too soon anyway), and I mainly saw some "need to have a good level of Japanese for this position".

Yeah, I agree expert :eek:
 
Porcile

Porcile

Member
What kind of crazy ass company would hire someone who can't even communicate or read on a basic level? Does this actually happen?! Genuine question.

edit - excluding ESL haha
 
R

Resilient

Member
Expert once suggested a bunch of people in a thread probably couldn't ask for chopsticks in Japanese. When I had to pause and think about it...It was at that moment I realised I knew mostly nothing. Ask yourself the same thing.

300 is not a lot to do anything, and furigana is not going to help you. But you can go that road for Kanji if you like. Just saying it will be really, really really slow with little reward. N4 level grammar will make a lot of the dialogue largely impossible to swallow t0o. You work full time I assume so if you like I can give you my study plan. I can confidently say that in a month I could play any Jgame and be able to understand 80% of it at least, having been studying relatively hard for 5/6 weeks straight. I just CBF writing it again cause I feel like I write it every page or so lol so I'm only gonna do it if you want it.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Porcile said:
What kind of crazy ass company would hire someone who can't even communicate or read on a basic level? Does this actually happen?! Genuine question.

edit - excluding ESL haha
Click to expand...

There are tons of job in Japan that require no Japanese and are not ESL. I don't know his specific industry, but plenty of people in engineering, sciences, academia, etc. come over and work in their own circles. A lot of times there are teams here with one interpreter for the team and the others are just their native tongue. Programming is a similar deal. I always recommended people who want to work there without the language skills to do so through an international company with a presence there.

Think of it like working at an embassy. Inside your workplace it's mainly like you're in your home country.

Not everyone who wants to work in Japan wants to speak Japanese. The issue is when you want to compete with Japanese for positions. The other issue is living there without having someone hold your hand for the simplest of things aka the japanlife subreddit.
 
U

urfe

Member
Porcile said:
What kind of crazy ass company would hire someone who can't even communicate or read on a basic level? Does this actually happen?! Genuine question.

edit - excluding ESL haha
Click to expand...

Finance, IT and recruiting come to mind (if you're worried about image though, recruiting isn't that much above esl).

I knew a few engineers as well who couldn't speak Japnese, but they were in a Japnese environment and it was tough.

Having a required skill makes Japanese less important.
 
R

Resilient

Member
That's...mind blowing. Goes without saying but you would be an absolute scrub in your field, working but not being able to properly communicate your ideas? At that point why even hire a foreigner? What is the benefit? How? What? What? Like...what? Surely they get paid peanuts? Why even do that? That's just a liability. At least in the field I'm in. You would bring basically nothing except a lot of blank stares. Sometimes I really wonder about ppl. I know the answer already to why but...Lol.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Er, again, your language ability doesn't matter in those specific settings. Like if you were being sent out to head up an expansion project. You'd have your fellow company bilinguals and interpreters there but you'd be out there with your design guy, your treasurer guy, your planning guy, manager, whatever.. working with your native team and your local branch's people. Or if like urfe said you're in an industry that uses operating language but at a local office. Insurance is a good example. Recruiting.. I'm not sure. Unless he means like Michael Page recruiting and not EastWest style headhunting, which definitely requires Jgo.
 
R

Resilient

Member
I'm an expert said:
Er, again, your language ability doesn't matter in those specific settings. Like if you were being sent out to head up an expansion project. You'd have your fellow company bilinguals and interpreters there but you'd be out there with your design guy, your treasurer guy, your planning guy, manager, whatever.. working with your native team and your local branch's people. Or if like urfe said you're in an industry that uses operating language but at a local office. Insurance is a good example. Recruiting.. I'm not sure. Unless he means like Michael Page recruiting and not EastWest style headhunting, which definitely requires Jgo.
Click to expand...

the only way i see it not being a waste of resources is if it's (like you said) an expansion project or an attempt to open up a new office in a new country, with the eventual outcome being hiring Japanese natives/speakers. Anything else I'm loling at because what is the point of hiring a bunch of eng-speakers, and interpreters to do the shit in the middle? Is there really a skill shortage of qualified engineers etc. that also are semi-fluent in Japanese? in 2016? that's just crazy to me. i'm gonna read about this shit on le reddit later today because i just have to know where all the qualified peeps are at and what they are doing. in the mean time hook me up with a good list of company's' with skill shortages that are looking for white dudes that can play basketball. thanks.

not talking about insurance or Finance. IT I'm surprised about and engineer i'm doing lols.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Not sure how to interpret your post. You're acting surprised when I specifically gave you this advice like the first time you ever asked me. Going through a company is 100% easier for people because the language ability isn't required, at least not to the degree where you're working in it every day. When you're sent over as an expat it's to work in your native tongue. My firm sends people to Germany, Singapore, wherever for 2-3 year assignments..we sure as fuck don't expect them to speak those languages. They're there to liaise with the local teams who themselves are expected to speak the operating language of the firm - in most cases English.

Working for an mnc in a place like Tokyo, especially in IT, without Japanese is extremely common. Working remotely is just as common. I have a friend who works as a network admin for an American firm's Japanese branch (located in Tokyo) but he himself lives in Nara. Because why not, he doesn't need to be on site, and he doesn't need to talk to anyone.

I think you genuinely need to network and reach out to people in the industry you're interested in. Find those companies/people in Japan and ask them what the norm is. Right now what you seem to want to do is take a Japanese person's job.. my point is you may not have to.
 
L

Laevateinn

Member
This is the route I'm trying to take. I'm conversational but no where near fluent. My Japanese friends told me the best route and jobs for me to look for jobs at multinationals where they operate in English and need English speakers. In this sense, I'm more attractive and not competing with the normal pool of Japanese engineers. Multinationals also are probably more willing to have higher starting wages.
 
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